Different ways to get shield ac on monk

[Dramiscius]

Trying to figure out some innovative ways of getting shield ac with a monk.
Initially I've been using Deep warden to swap out dex for con to ac (due to having a high con) but im thinking now that I might rather swap out the 2 levels of that for one monk + one FoF.

Initially I was thinking of wearing wild mountain plate +5 so id get the bonus while wild shaped along with monk ac, But since it's an epic game I'm considering swapping over to +5 ac robes, and bracers of armor so ill have a higher ac while not wild shaped as well (and of course higher while wild shaped).

However the rub right now is the shield, losing the +5 heavy shield is a decently large hit (alot larger then -2 ac going from mountain plate to +8 armor bracers), so I'm trying to find if theres anyway to add shield ac onto non shield items, or if there's any items monks can equip that can get shield ac or a shield enhancement enchanted onto them (that's not a temporary buff either).

Off the top of my head I can't think of anything, and my initial google search came up dry.

[Xtomjames]

Unfortunately the wild-mountain armor is armor, and thus you lose both the monk wisdom bonus and ac bonus. Any and all armors count against the monk's ac bonus. Only clothing and cloth armor that is a +0 or has no limit to dex are okay. The simplest answer is get magical items that add to ac. Ring of protection, mage armor, amulet of natural armor. Look in the magic item's compendium for potential items. Especially those that grant deflection bonuses which stack.

[Dramiscius]

Unfortunately the wild-mountain armor is armor, and thus you lose both the monk wisdom bonus and ac bonus. Any and all armors count against the monk's ac bonus. Only clothing and cloth armor that is a +0 or has no limit to dex are okay. The simplest answer is get magical items that add to ac. Ring of protection, mage armor, amulet of natural armor. Look in the magic item's compendium for potential items. Especially those that grant deflection bonuses which stack.

I know any armor or shields removes monk ac bonus, however that doesn't matter when wild shaping as normally when you wild shape the armors melded in and made inert. However the wild property from the dmg allows you to keep the AC and AC enchant bonuses from armor/shields while still allowing them to meld into the form. So you've got the ac without the armor.

And when the hell did deflection bonus start stacking ? last I remember dodge was the only ac bonus that fit into that category. If deflection bonuses stacked touch attacks would be in for a world of hurt.

[Keld Denar]

Deflection bonuses never stack with other Deflection bonuses. They do stack with other armor bonuses like Natural Armor, Armor, Shield, Dodge, Sacred, etc.

As far as Wild Armor + Monk AC bonus, thats...sketchy. The whole point of Wild Armor is is that it doesn't become fully inert.

If your DM says that Wild Armor works with Monk AC bonus, just...get a Wild Shield as well. That seems like the simple answer, assuming your DM allows it.

[Diarmuid]

I guess I'm just surprised anyone is worrying about AC in an Epic game. Especially the Tier 1 caster.

[gbprime]

I guess I'm just surprised anyone is worrying about AC in an Epic game. Especially the Tier 1 caster.

He appears to be taking the "maximize the AC or forget it altogether" route, which is the correct way to treat AC when you're Epic. For Epic, the minimum should be...

AC = (Char Level x 2) + 10

If you can't hit or exceed that, don't bother with AC at all.

[Dramiscius]

I guess I'm just surprised anyone is worrying about AC in an Epic game. Especially the Tier 1 caster.

I'm not actually going with druid for the wild shaping, I'm being lazy and went the ranger wildshape variant for MoMF /natures war/warshaper with a splash of deep warden for swapping dex ac with con. But im thinking of swapping out the 2 deep warden levels with 1 monk / 1 FoF .

And adding my con as a different type of ac (or in particular to my touch ac as well, because deep warden is just a stat swap for dex ac. And everyone knows touch ac can NEVER be high enough). Just trying to figure out if there's anyway gear wise to add shield ac and/or shield enhancement without a shield. That way my ac will still be higher then it is now (currently sitting at 71 with the plate and shield + other items and con replacing dex ac) and of course wild shaped depending on the form it should easily push past 100-110+ depending on the NA of the form. His melee AB is rather poor, which will of course change depending on the forms strength. But he should prove a pretty good distraction on the battle field.

I was thinking of switching to druid, but I just really don't want to deal with a spell book right now, rather just shift into alot of different crap.

[Dramiscius]

As far as Wild Armor + Monk AC bonus, thats...sketchy. The whole point of Wild Armor is is that it doesn't become fully inert.


Well actually the point of wild armor is keeping the good, and ditching the bad (armor penalties and whatnot) IE the armor still melds but you keep it's protection (ac /enhancement ac only, no other abilities), Now if I put wilding clasps on them it would be a different story, but that's not the case.

[Metahuman1]

Take 2 lvls of Swordsage with that Monk, and the 2 levels of Deepwarden Combined with Fist of the Forest. And Now, enjoy having double your casting Stat mod plus Double your Con too AC. With a good round of boosting both stats could be gotten up too 40 with out too much trouble, and that means +15 too AC from four separate Sources for a total of +60.

[Dramiscius]

Take 2 lvls of Swordsage with that Monk, and the 2 levels of Deepwarden Combined with Fist of the Forest. And Now, enjoy having double your casting Stat mod plus Double your Con too AC. With a good round of boosting both stats could be gotten up too 40 with out too much trouble, and that means +15 too AC from four separate Sources for a total of +60.

Swordsage and monk ac doesn't stack fyi, also I ditched deepwarden because im trying to keep my max wildshape HD as high as possible, since my DM wasn't silly enough to allow divine minion cheese :smallbiggrin:

[Zherog]

Well actually the point of wild armor is keeping the good, and ditching the bad (armor penalties and whatnot) IE the armor still melds but you keep it's protection (ac /enhancement ac only, no other abilities), Now if I put wilding clasps on them it would be a different story, but that's not the case.

Sorry, that's not how I read it.


Wild: The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be made covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.

Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, baleful polymorph; Price +3 bonus.

So it says the armor can't be seen, but nothing at all says you lose the negative aspects.

[tyckspoon]

So it says the armor can't be seen, but nothing at all says you lose the negative aspects.

Wildshape rules- any items worn meld and become nonfunctional. The Wild property adds an exception to that: the Armor bonus of your armor still applies. Rest of the armor, comprising the encumbrance value/dex cap/ACP? Still non-functional, because Wild doesn't say anything about changing those. Exception-based design, yo; it doesn't say anything about you still wearing/not wearing the armor (contrast Beastskin property in the MIC, which explicitly makes the armor change size and shape with you so you're still wearing it), so you aren't. It melds, you get the armor bonus anyway.

[Dramiscius]

Sorry, that's not how I read it.



So it says the armor can't be seen, but nothing at all says you lose the negative aspects.

However you're also not getting any of the armors penalties either, which is what differentiates "armor" from "no armor", also if you were still technically "wearing the armor" you'd get any additional properties on it.

You and I can thank wizards notoriously ambiguous wording, but the arguments moot anyway since I already went and ditched the plate for +5 robes and +8 armor bracers, and the shield for a ring of constant shield. Overall 5 ac lost, but unshifted it's the same and I've got mobility I wouldn't of had in heavy armor. :smallbiggrin:

[Groverfield]

Phrenic Template: Shield to AC as a daily use for HD minutes (or hours, i forget which) per day, and note that psionic-like powers use their maximum PP available, so at 21 class levels you get a +9 shield to AC, and along side you get 3/day insight to AC (at 21 class levels its +11) for level min/day.

[Zherog]

I already went and ditched the plate for +5 robes and +8 armor bracers,

Unless your +5 robes use an odd bonus type, they won't stack; they're both armor bonuses.

(I'm assuming this is where you quibble that it's a +5 enhancement bonus; but it's not - it's still an armor bonus.)

[Dramiscius]

Phrenic Template: Shield to AC as a daily use for HD minutes (or hours, i forget which) per day, and note that psionic-like powers use their maximum PP available, so at 21 class levels you get a +9 shield to AC, and along side you get 3/day insight to AC (at 21 class levels its +11) for level min/day.

Nice, however it's also +2 LA, have to see if we're allowed to buy off templates or not. In which case, there might be a few others out there that are better (divine minions out)

[Dramiscius]

Unless your +5 robes use an odd bonus type, they won't stack; they're both armor bonuses.

(I'm assuming this is where you quibble that it's a +5 enhancement bonus; but it's not - it's still an armor bonus.)

I thought they changed it so robes could gain an armor enhancement bonus a while ago?

[Zherog]

You don't gain an enhancement bonus directly; instead the enhancement bonus enhances the armor bonus. So clothing (+0 armor) with a +5 enhancement bonus grants a +5 armor bonus. Similarly full plate (+8 armor bonus) with a +5 enhancement grants a +13 armor bonus.

[Dramiscius]

You don't gain an enhancement bonus directly; instead the enhancement bonus enhances the armor bonus. So clothing (+0 armor) with a +5 enhancement bonus grants a +5 armor bonus. Similarly full plate (+8 armor bonus) with a +5 enhancement grants a +13 armor bonus.

Right, I know it all counts as armor bonus but I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever interpret it like that before.

I see where you're coming from, but I still don't agree with it.

On another note, can crafted items have a profane ac bonus ? The item crafting rules aren't really very clear on all that (and im sure i've seen profane ac bonuses before outside of spells).

[tyckspoon]

Right, I know it all counts as armor bonus but I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever interpret it like that before.

I see where you're coming from, but I still don't agree with it.

On another note, can crafted items have a profane ac bonus ? The item crafting rules aren't really very clear on all that (and im sure i've seen profane ac bonuses before outside of spells).

What are you disagreeing with? If you admit that it's all armor bonus, then like Zherog said you have a +5 Armor item and a +8 Armor item, same bonus types, no stacking. :smallconfused:

Yes, you can put a profane bonus to pretty much anything. It would go under 'AC Bonus (other)' and is guideline-priced at bonus squared x 2500 gp. But you're generally getting into custom items there, which means you're going to have to hash it out with your DM about whether he'll let it play and how much it'll actually cost, because just by the guidelines that's an amazingly cheap way to stack AC.

[Dramiscius]

What are you disagreeing with? If you admit that it's all armor bonus, then like Zherog said you have a +5 Armor item and a +8 Armor item, same bonus types, no stacking. :smallconfused:


Same type as in Armor, and enhancement Armor the same but different at the same time. I've just never had anyone chime in about armor and +enhance ac not stacking unless they were on the same source.

Though I do see his point as valid.



Yes, you can put a profane bonus to pretty much anything. It would go under 'AC Bonus (other)' and is guideline-priced at bonus squared x 2500 gp. But you're generally getting into custom items there, which means you're going to have to hash it out with your DM about whether he'll let it play and how much it'll actually cost, because just by the guidelines that's an amazingly cheap way to stack AC.

True, but necessary if you want to not go getting hit by nearly everything in the ELH, at least anything that's a threat. And that's not getting into the spellcasting or other dangerous SU's alot of them sport.

[NNescio]

Same type as in Armor, and enhancement Armor the same but different at the same time. I've just never had anyone chime in about armor and +enhance ac not stacking unless they were on the same source.

Though I do see his point as valid.



True, but necessary if you want to not go getting hit by nearly everything in the ELH, at least anything that's a threat. And that's not getting into the spellcasting or other dangerous SU's alot of them sport.

Note that the enhancement bonus applies to the item, not to your person:

Enhancement Bonus

An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.

This modifies the armor bonus granted by said item. You do not gain an "armor enhancement bonus". Your armor gains an enhancement bonus, and said armor provides you with a higher "armor bonus".

[Dramiscius]

Note that the enhancement bonus applies to the item, not to your person:


This modifies the armor bonus granted by said item. You do not gain an "armor enhancement bonus". Your armor gains an enhancement bonus, and said armor provides you with a higher "armor bonus".

Right, but like I said I've never had anyone argue it before until now. Oh well, I can chip out a few more dimes for a luck bonus instead ;)

[Dramiscius]

ack, stupid lag causing double posts, anyway better off with a few more bucks for a luck bonus anyway since it applies to touch ac ;)

[deuxhero]

Isn't "Ring of Shield" core (or MIC)?

[NNescio]

Right, but like I said I've never had anyone argue it before until now. Oh well, I can chip out a few more dimes for a luck bonus instead ;)

Alright, I flipped through the Rules Compendium, which is far more explicit on this matter:


Armor Class

Your Armor Class (AC) represents how hard it is for opponents
to land a damaging blow on you. It’s the attack roll result that
an opponent needs to achieve to hit you.

AC = 10 + size modifier + Dex modifier + armor bonus +
shield bonus + deflection bonus + insight bonus + natural
armor bonus + dodge bonuses + other modifiers

...

Enhancement Bonuses
An enhancement bonus makes an armor bonus, natural
armor bonus, or a shield bonus better. The enhancement
bonus stacks as if it were part of the bonus to which it
applies—armor, natural armor, or shield—so it’s not included
in the AC formula above.

Note the purposeful omission in the AC calculation formula.

[Dramiscius]

Note the purposeful omission in the AC calculation formula.

yay wizards did something right!

[Rei_Jin]

It may or may not work with your DM, but an Animated shield is not technically being "carried" by a PC when it is activated. Thus, you should retain your Wisdom to AC. Whilst the text for the Animated property says that you retain all the drawbacks of using a shield such as proficiency or non-proficiency, armor check penalties and so on, your DM may see that as no barrier to using one.

[deuxhero]

I'm suprised no one has pointed out that Swordsage gets light armor...

[Dramiscius]

I'm suprised no one has pointed out that Swordsage gets light armor...

I know they do however fist of the forest requires you to be unarmored for the ac bonus, hence taking monk.

[Zaq]

There's always the (admittedly short-lived) Shieldbearer spell from SpC. It picks a specific shield (including that +5 heavy shield you've got) and makes it float in front of you, giving you the AC boost "as if you were wearing it." However, unlike an Animated shield, it contains no language to the effect of you being considered to actually be wearing the shield, so you shouldn't take the downsides.

It's a level 1 spell, so I'm sure you can cook up a way of getting it when you need it if you try hard enough.

[Curmudgeon]

Robes can do the whole armor bonus thing. You add a +8 armor bonus to a normal clothing robe using the "Adding/Improving Common Item Effects" table (Magic Item Compendium, page 234). Then the Clerical Magic Vestment spell adds a +5 armor enhancement bonus to that robe. Add all the separate AC boosters (natural armor, natural armor enhancement, luck, & c.) separately.

[Dramiscius]

Robes can do the whole armor bonus thing. You add a +8 armor bonus to a normal clothing robe using the "Adding/Improving Common Item Effects" table (Magic Item Compendium, page 234). Then the Clerical Magic Vestment spell adds a +5 armor enhancement bonus to that robe. Add all the separate AC boosters (natural armor, natural armor enhancement, luck, & c.) separately.

thanks for the tip :)

[olentu]

thanks for the tip :)

Of course due to the lack of definition of just what an outfit of regular clothing is it is completely dependent on DM fiat as to if one can even use magic vestment.

[Dramiscius]

Of course due to the lack of definition of just what an outfit of regular clothing is it is completely dependent on DM fiat as to if one can even use magic vestment.

yea I just added armor enhancement to them, though after everything else I was a few thousand shy of the 25k for +5 so i settled for +4. :smallfrown:

[Curmudgeon]

Of course due to the lack of definition of just what an outfit of regular clothing is it is completely dependent on DM fiat as to if one can even use magic vestment.
The pattern has been to treat such terms in a straightforward fashion. So if it's listed in the Clothing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#clothing) section of the Player's Handbook Equipment chapter, it's regular clothing.

People who thought "normal" or "regular" should be interpreted stringently were surprised when later publications came out. The Tumble rule
Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. was interpreted by some DMs as prohibiting anything other than a move action to travel your speed on land. But then Tome of Battle and Rules Compendium made it clear that if you've got a listed speed, you're using normal movement. So with a Fly speed you can Tumble while making an aerial charge.

[olentu]

The pattern has been to treat such terms in a straightforward fashion. So if it's listed in the Clothing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#clothing) section of the Player's Handbook Equipment chapter, it's regular clothing.

People who thought "normal" or "regular" should be interpreted stringently were surprised when later publications came out. The Tumble rule was interpreted by some DMs as prohibiting anything other than a move action to travel your speed on land. But then Tome of Battle and Rules Compendium made it clear that if you've got a listed speed, you're using normal movement. So with a Fly speed you can Tumble while making an aerial charge.

First generalization can not be done without becoming a houserule. So the fact that you require generalization from a pattern for your position to be correct means it is not necessarily.

Second the fact that tumble needed clarification meant that before that clarification any ruling regarding that usage of the word normal with regards to tumble was DM fiat as clearly the necessity of a ruling demonstrates the lack of clarity. Thus by the pattern put forth by tumble any use of the word normal or regular is sufficiently unclear so as to require explicit clarification for a definition to be counted as correct. So the fact that tumble needed clarification contradicts your argument.

Third if you are allowed to make up rules (that is that clothing in the clothing section is absolutely counted as regular by the rules) then I am as well. I choose to make the rule that any modification of any item to deviate from the listed stats of said item including addition of statistics not previously listed changes the item into a different custom item which is thus not regular. Thus the enchanted robe is not listed in the clothing section since it is changed into a new item by the customization.