Could I Make a Viable Character if...?

[flumphy]

So, there's one big issue keeping me from trying out 4e. I hate the idea of every single class having encounter and 1/day powers.

You see, I'm kind of a hoarder, and I hate the metagame of conserving resources. I avoid playing classes with limited mana in CRPGs and FPSes with limited ammo. In 3.5, I hardly ever rage as a barbarian, and have horrible pangs regret doing so even if it's the right decision tactically. Vancian spellcasting is pretty much a nightmare for me. Fortunately, by late 3.5 there were classes like the warlock and the crusader that let me have fun and still be semi-viable.

And then 4e comes along and turns every class into a barbarian. Realistically, I know I'd never use anything but at-wills, so I'm wondering if that's even viable in 4e. More specifically, I'm wondering if there's a class that has great at-wills but crappy limited powers that would let me spam at-wills all day but still contribute equally to the party's success in a party of optimizers. I don't really care what the class does or what its fluff is. I don't care how hard it is to otherwise play. My main concern is never having to use anything but at-wills.

tl;dr: Is there a way for me to use only at-wills and not suck in a high-op group?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Psionic classes (with the exception of the Monk, which was shoehorned into the Psionic power source for little good reason) from the Player's Handbook 3 do a pretty good job of what you're looking for.

Essentially, you get a pool of "power points". You also get more At-Will powers than normal, instead of picking up Encounter powers. (You still get Daily powers, though...) The power points are then used to augment your At-Wills, if you so desire.

So, yes, you can continuously use at-wills as a psionic class. Now, you won't be as damaging or effective if you never spend the power points, but it is possible to do so.

[Epinephrine]

You can optimise your at-wills to the point that they become very solid go-to options. I made a shifter druid that did very well using his at-will beast form attacks.

[Zaq]

I'm pretty sure that this is how most of the Essentials classes work. Unfortunately, in my mind, they're also pretty boring, but that's pretty much BECAUSE they just spam basic attacks all day . . .

[Blazen]

There is little point in holding off on your encounter powers. They refresh after every battle so most people just use them as their initial moves. In later levels you get enough Dailies to use one each encounter. I'm a lot like you so I know where your coming from. Nothing sucks more than blasting out all you best abilities, but then find out the real battle is just beyond the door. In the end, no, you will have to use your encounter powers and your dailies on some of the tougher fights. 2 classes I can recommend though:

Barbarian, or Warden - You want to just go ahead and use the encounter powers right from the start for max effect. The dailies change your character's form and as such can't stack, so you are encouraged to only use one of them per encounter anyways.

[flumphy]

I'm pretty sure that this is how most of the Essentials classes work. Unfortunately, in my mind, they're also pretty boring, but that's pretty much BECAUSE they just spam basic attacks all day . . .

I've seen a lot GMs on PbP sites banning Essentials classes or refusing to mix Essentials material with the standard material. I assumed Essentials was broken in some way. What issues do people generally have with it, that it's so rarely allowed? I'm okay with a high level of optimization, but I don't want to completely break the game.


There is little point in holding off on your encounter powers. They refresh after every battle so most people just use them as their initial moves. In later levels you get enough Dailies to use one each encounter. I'm a lot like you so I know where your coming from. Nothing sucks more than blasting out all you best abilities, but then find out the real battle is just beyond the door. In the end, no, you will have to use your encounter powers and your dailies on some of the tougher fights. 2 classes I can recommend though:

Barbarian, or Warden - You want to just go ahead and use the encounter powers right from the start for max effect. The dailies change your character's form and as such can't stack, so you are encouraged to only use one of them per encounter anyways.

Hmm. Well, there's little point for a high-level 3.5 barbarian to hold off on raging each encounter, but I still can't bring myself to do that. If it's limited at all, I'm going to feel guilty using it. So yeah, maybe I have to stick with 3.5 and systems other than D&D. :smallfrown: Thanks for the advice, though.

[Dimers]

There are two classes I could suggest for this frame of mind, each of which uses one particularly good at-will over and over: Ranger and Warlord. The former has a "attack twice" at-will that's pretty much the best in the game for damage, and the latter uses her allies to make attacks that are, again, really superior for an at-will. Ranger is better for you, though, since the stinginess could really get in the way of a warlord's party role in terms of healing. Don't want to skimp on that.

I recommend against psionics for most games, though if you're starting in late paragon tier they're worth a look. You can spend power points to augment the lower-level powers fully every turn without running out of power points by the end of the battle, because you have plenty at that point. And the lower-level powers, aside from generally doing less damage, can have quite valuable effects. I just posted (in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207904)) a concept for a battlemind who probably wants to stick with level 3, 7 and 13 powers through the end of the game. In large part it's a fun build for me because I feel the same way you do. I'm reluctant to spend something I might run out of. Don't have to worry about that for the last fifteen levels ... and even unaugmented in the early days, those at-will powers are pretty valuable.

I'd also point out that encounter powers are very renewable -- you always have one use of each in every encounter. It's dailies or augmentables that would trip you up.

Classes with conjuration or summoning dailies might be more to your taste. Sure, you use a power you don't get back right away, but it lasts all battle. Many barbarian and fighter dailies are good that way too -- activate the power for a persistent bonus of some sort, one that doesn't stack with other dailies so you definitely only want to use one at a time.

[Mando Knight]

I've seen a lot GMs on PbP sites banning Essentials classes or refusing to mix Essentials material with the standard material. I assumed Essentials was broken in some way. What issues do people generally have with it, that it's so rarely allowed? I'm okay with a high level of optimization, but I don't want to completely break the game.

My opinion is that it's overreaction to the perceived power creep. While there is some in the Essentials material, most of it's available to everyone. In my experience, the Essentials classes can work almost seamlessly with older classes.

[Hidden Sanity]

A warlock that optimizes eldrich strike and/or hellfire rebuke will take encounters or dailies for situational use(possibly MC fighter for polearm mommentum abuse on eldrich strike...) same with a twin-strike ranger, except situational use and minor-action/off turn encounter attacks that they use at the earlierest chance.

Some charging builds out there that just get a powerful MBA/AT-Will and charge all-day every day with the rest of the powers being situational use... heck, I know one build that maximizes charging with Eldrich strike and ends up with several abilities useless to it... it's a Warlock|Assassian/Fighter with a greatspear who takes a lot of white-lotus feats and polearm mommentum... it ends up with a weak Dex so it's assassian powers aren't very good.

[Ramien]

I've seen a lot GMs on PbP sites banning Essentials classes or refusing to mix Essentials material with the standard material. I assumed Essentials was broken in some way. What issues do people generally have with it, that it's so rarely allowed? I'm okay with a high level of optimization, but I don't want to completely break the game.

Hmm. Well, there's little point for a high-level 3.5 barbarian to hold off on raging each encounter, but I still can't bring myself to do that. If it's limited at all, I'm going to feel guilty using it. So yeah, maybe I have to stick with 3.5 and systems other than D&D. :smallfrown: Thanks for the advice, though.

Essentials introduces a lot of feats that effectively replace the feats from the prior books and can make things difficult if not everyone has access to the same material and knows which feats have been 'replaced', since the older feats are still around and haven't been errata'd out. I didn't allow Essentials rules in my current game until a party wipe so everyone could start on the same level.

If you have a serious phobia about spending resources, then 4th may not be your thing, to be honest. The resources aren't as essential as in Vancian casting, but they are meaningful enough that you'll feel some serious guilt about using a daily power or action point. Personally, I like being able to choose when to give my best effort by spending the resources, since it keeps people from just spamming their best attacks, but to each their own.

[MeeposFire]

Essentials has little problems that any other new thing in a game has (in fact it is less than what many new things end up doing). The big problem is that it was only the second time that the designers went outside the standard box for powers (and it was far bigger in the differences) and some people don't like or trust that. You would probably like the knight, slayer, hunter, and scout classes. Each of these classes use normal basic attacks and have no dailies. For all but the hunter their encounter powers are just enhancing you basic attacks for a little extra damage (think of it is getting an adrenalin rush or putting all your weight into a single attack).

[Kurald Galain]

You see, I'm kind of a hoarder, and I hate the metagame of conserving resources.

And then 4e comes along and turns every class into a barbarian.
Except that it doesn't.

You have these things called "encounter powers". Your character will get three or four of them, and combat lasts about four rounds. So every single combat, you can start by using all of your encounter powers. When you're finished with that, combat is almost over, and you automatically get all of them back for the next combat.

Try it and you'll see.

[Kurald Galain]

I've seen a lot GMs on PbP sites banning Essentials classes or refusing to mix Essentials material with the standard material. I assumed Essentials was broken in some way. What issues do people generally have with it, that it's so rarely allowed?
It's a long story. The bottom line is that it was designed from a wholly different philosophy than 4.0, and that mixes less well than WOTC's marketing department claims it does.

Also, it's swingy. Many options in 4.4 are either utterly weak, or clearly more powerful than earlier options.

[flumphy]

Well, a friend of mine has offered to run me through a couple trial sessions, and you guys have convinced me to take him up on the offer. Even if I end up hating it, at least I'll be able to say I gave it a shot.

Based on the advice here I think I'll try out a ranger and maybe something from Essentials, if he has that. I'm guessing the latter is something divisive enough that you just have to see it in play to form an opinion on.

[Hidden Sanity]

Part of the dislike for 4Ee is 'Ahhh! Change bad!' reaction... part of it. But being introduced to it early on kinda removes that reason to hate it.

[Howler Dagger]

Part of the dislike for 4Ee is 'Ahhh! Change bad!' reaction... part of it. But being introduced to it early on kinda removes that reason to hate it.

yeah, 4e was the first form of D&D i was introduced to, and i think its perfectly fine. Also, i always try to use ALL my encounter powers in an encounter, because there is no point in conserving them for later encounters, unlike dailies, and not using them is a waste. I kind of have the same problem with conserving stuff, but if you really think you might need a daily, go ahead and use it, instead of waiting for later. If my allies are all down in health and the enemies arent and we are in a critical situation, i have no problems with using bastion of defense.

[Sipex]

Glad to hear you'll try it out. If you do use a base 4e class, remember that your encounter powers are always good because, as other have said, they recharge after battle.

I can kind of relate though, I used to be the same way, especially when it came to things like RPGs. I remember playing through countless FF games where the only thing I would do is use up potions and use the basic attack options, saving all magic for the boss battles :P

[flumphy]

Well, I tried a ranger and a knight, with the DM running two DMPCs to fill out the party. I found that encounter powers that other people trigger are a good bet for me, since I don't have to agonize as much about when to use them. I definitely wouldn't want to play anything with a lot of reliance on encounter powers, but I think I could have fun with the ranger and some of the Essentials classes.

There's only one issue I forsee. All the classes that look promising require you to dump INT. I played the stereotypical dumb fighter in 3.5 far too often because my options were so limited, and I'm not sure I have it in me to do that again. I skimmed through some optimization guides on the WotC forums, and the only thing that looked remotely promising was warlock. And warlocks look really tough to build, at least if you're using the tricks to optimize your at-wills.

Are there any non-Int-dumping classes I'm missing that may be good for me? Or are there any decent, unconventional builds for the simpler Essentials classes that key off of INT? I know there's a feat called melee training that lets you change what your basic attacks key off of. I already looked at the Essentials wizard, and that's definitely not something I want to play.

[dariathalon]

There are lots of classes out there that have Int as either primary a secondary stat. Considering you want powers that are triggered by others, I might look into a bard. They have Int as a possible secondary stat and as I recall, they have a lot of powers that others trigger. Though on the other hand, the rest of the party might have a problem if their leader was stingy about spending healing powers. Swordmage also might be worth looking into. They are an Int based defender, and defenders often have a few powers that others activate.

[MeeposFire]

There is a hexblade build that is based off of secondary intelligence was it white well?

You could also do a eladrin knight build. It uses a lot of teleporting (yourself and your enemies) and uses int as its main attack stat assuming you multiclass swordmage for inteligent blade master. I have seen it be used with a sword, hammer, or a staff. It also has no dailies (attacks anyway) and a minimum of encounter attack powers (mostly used to boost your own standard attacks).

[Kurald Galain]

There's only one issue I forsee. All the classes that look promising require you to dump INT. I played the stereotypical dumb fighter in 3.5 far too often because my options were so limited, and I'm not sure I have it in me to do that again.

A character with 10 int is not dumb; he is of average intelligence. Don't let a little number on your sheet limit your character's personality.

[flumphy]

Thanks for the suggestions. I agree that I probably shouldn't put myself in a position where I'm relied on for healing. I'm not sure whether or not I'd like the hexblade or swordsage. I'd probably have to see them in play to be able to tell. The eladrin knight seems like just the thing I'm looking for, though!


A character with 10 int is not dumb; he is of average intelligence. Don't let a little number on your sheet limit your character's personality.

I'm aware of that. It's just that sometimes, I want to actually play a character of above-average intelligence, partly because I'm of above-average intelligence in real life and partly because it's sometimes fun roleplaying a character with more brains than muscles. Intelligence aside, even just the trappings of an arcane class versus a mundane class can be a nice change of pace.

[WickerNipple]

Intelligence is just book learnin'.

A brilliant genius might only have a 10 if they'd never had the opportunity to actually study.

Unless you've dumped all three of the mental stats I wouldn't call your character dumb.

[Sipex]

Exactly. For example, a Ranger with low INT but decent/high WIS is a guy who isn't booksmart but still capable. He isn't stupid, he uses his experience and senses to guide him instead of lessons from others (books and the like)

[Kurald Galain]

Exactly. For example, a Ranger with low INT but decent/high WIS is a guy who isn't booksmart but still capable. He isn't stupid, he uses his experience and senses to guide him instead of lessons from others (books and the like)

For that matter, it's always bugged me that the ultimate smartass power (i.e. Crucial Advice) is only available to rangers. Apparently you're not allowed to play a smartass character unless you have the ranger class :smalltongue:

[Renchard]

Well, I don't have my books in front of me, but assuming you have access to every book, you could do this.

1) Play a knight or a slayer.
2) Multiclass into swordmage.
3) Take the feat Intelligent Blademaster.

Now all your attacks use Intelligence instead of Strength.