Cha-focused warrior - Is it doable?

[ImperatorK]

I'm curious if it is possible to make a fighting type character who benefits the most from his Charisma. Cha to AC, Cha to saves, Cha to attack, etc.
If it's sub-optimal to concentrate on Cha, then at least tell me if it's possible to make Cha important to the character.
I wanted to make a char. that is very charismatic and his Charisma aids him in fighting.
Of course no spells, I want him to be a pure meleer.
And it would be nice if your suggestions where available from early levels. I want this char. to be competent from 1st level.

[Greenish]

Well, as "X stat to Y" thread demonstrates, there are ways to add Cha to pretty much anything several times over. Whether stacking those is that advantageous I wouldn't know.

Iaijutsu Master and/or bard of some strip are probably your best bets.

[The-Mage-King]

Do I have a build for you. Just need to hunt it up...


Found it! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11335643&postcount=5)

Enjoy.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Not exactly playable from 1st level, but Gloura (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) LA +2/ Fey HD 7/ Cobra-Strike Monk 2/ Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter 2/ Arcane Duelist 3/ Blackguard 3/ Mystic Wanderer 1, with Ascetic Mage, Divine Might, and Shock Trooper is probably as good as it gets. Cha bonus to saves three times (all unnamed bonus types), Cha to AC four times (Deflection, Dodge, Profane, and unnamed), and a racial +6 Cha. You get to add your Cha bonus to damage via Divine Might, you get Dextrous Attack which has some abusive interactions with two-handed Power Attack, and your AC is high enough that you can use Shock Trooper and still be untouchable. It also qualifies for Charming the Arrow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a).

That's probably the most elegant build for getting your Cha bonus to saves and AC as many times as possible. You could easily substitute the race and its accompanying ECL for something different and grab some levels in maybe Bard for Snowflake Wardance, and still get all the rest of it but for one fewer instance of Cha to both saves and AC.

In any case, get an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW) for a Guenhwyvar-style companion.

[Saintheart]

And whatever weapon you have, make sure it has the Sudden Stunning (PHB II) quality. Keys off CHA, it's what I call the "monk in a box".

[Douglas]

Charisma focus is, in fact, one of the most powerful (short of exploiting unlimited stuff) options for high optimization past a certain level. Really getting the most out of it generally requires lots of dips in many different classes, though, so it can take a little while to really get going with enough levels and dips to get the bonuses you need.

The basic idea is look through the charisma list in X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732), find the ones that seem most useful for your goal and cheapest, and see how many you can cram into a build and how few levels you can do it in.

[*.*.*.*]

Not exactly playable from 1st level, but Gloura (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) LA +2/ Fey HD 7/ Cobra-Strike Monk 2/ Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter 2/ Arcane Duelist 3/ Blackguard 3/ Mystic Wanderer 1,

As awesome as that build is(which it most certainly is), it has some bad BaB.

[Saintheart]

As awesome as that build is(which it most certainly is), it has some bad BaB.

It also has some Heisenberg's Cheese in it, notably going Blackguard when your Paladin levels come from Tyranny or Slaughter rather than the RAI route of goody-two-shoes variant Paladin. :smallbiggrin:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Indeed, it only gets +10 BAB, or +12 fractional, but with Shock Trooper it's only getting one attack per round anyway and Dextrous Attack shenanigans ensures that it's probably going to hit.

I just realized, it can't use Paladin of Tyranny since Mystic Wanderer requires a nonlawful alignment, so you're stuck with Fallen Monk and Paladin of Slaughter. Not that it's a bad thing, CE is more fitting for an unseelie fey than LE anyway, though the code of conduct may be a bit reckless.

[Retech]

Dashin swordsman is what you need. :elan:

[*.*.*.*]

It would be easier to focus on Dual Stat. A Dex/Cha focused build works pretty well, definitely with things like Targateer(sp?) fighter ACF from DotU and shadowblade. Use Biff's above build, but replace Gloura with something like Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar for +4 Cha. Focus on Dex and Cha with aforementioned feats and ACFs. Getting Dex twice to attack and damage as well as Charisma is pretty cool. Someone could probably do a better build with Int/Cha(probably using Factotum), but I prefer Dex/Cha.

[Amphetryon]

Bard/Crusader is a popular and powerful option along this path.

You can mimic Shneekey's samurai build and make a solid Intimidator with CHA focus with the right source books.

If you use Mearls' fix or similar (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19547530/Contacting_Wizards_of_the_Coast_about_Hex_Blades?p ost_id=332210466#332210466), Hexblade is a reasonable mid-level option for a CHA-focused warrior.

Obviously, the "X stat to Y bonus" thread will be an invaluable resource toward this end.

[Vandicus]

Maxout Iajutsu focus as much as possible. Slippers of Battledancing to add CHA to attack and damage.

1st level Barbarian for pounce
2nd level CE paladin variant
3rd level CE paladin variant to add CHA to saves
4th level dip Battle Dancer base class from Dragon Magazine Compendium for CHA to AC while not armored, unencumbered etc, mimics Monk AC.

Work up to Iajutsu Master from OA, maybe dipping one of the OA classes to allow max ranks in Iajutsu Focus. Maybe go Crab Clan Samurai to help pick up the necessary feats.

The Barbarian's rage ability will help out a bit in early levels for damage and such until you get Slippers of Battledancing, while Iajutsu focus can help you imitate a rogue to some degree at low levels.

*EDIT
I have to say that being a noncaster made it difficult to find a way to add CHA to saves, to attack, to damage, to AC, and eventually to initiative.

[Talya]

Bardadin. You can get Charisma: To hit (sometimes twice over), To damage, to Saves, to spell DCs. If you work at it, Charisma-to-AC is even a possibility.

[Vandicus]

It occurred to me that if you have a sufficiently knowledgeable mage in your party, you could start Chaotic Neutral and ask Pazuzu for slippers of battledancing before going to the Chaotic Evil paladin variant.

[Person_Man]

It can easily be done with a Binder, Crusader, Paladin, Bard, or some combination thereof. Which do you prefer?

[ImperatorK]

Binder and Crusader are okay.

[Vandicus]

Binder and Crusader are okay.

What about <4 levels of paladin? They don't get casting at that point.

[Person_Man]

Binder and Crusader are okay.

Crusader 20: Use his default class abilities and pick any maneuvers/stances you think are fun, because they're all good and many are great. When you can afford them buy Slippers of Battledancing to get Cha to-hit and take the Combat Panache feat to impose your Cha as a penalty to your enemy's to-hit (basically giving you Cha to AC, but for only one enemy at a time. If you're feeling extra fancy invest 1-3 levels in Bard and take Song of the White Raven (if you want to get the Inspire Courage bonus) and Snowflake Wardance (to get Cha to-hit, again).

Binder: Your key melee vestiges are Dahlver-Nar, Paimon, Kas, Zagon, Andras, Desharis, and The Triad. Each offers a suite of fairly awesome and different abilities. Andras, Desharis, and The Triad each offer various Smite abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185859) (which work against both Good and Evil enemies) which can be used once every 5 rounds, which add your Cha to-hit and your level to damage. Smite abilities are unnamed bonuses, and thus stack. When you get access to a vestige that you're willing to use all the time, head into Knight of the Sacred Seal (which requires that you lock one vestige in as your Favored Vestige), and you'll also get your Cha bonus to To-Hit and Reflex Saves once every five rounds. Again, when you can afford them buy Slippers of Battledancing to get Cha to-hit and take the Combat Panache feat to impose your Cha as a penalty to your enemy's to-hit.

Crusader or Bard/Crusader is the easier choice. Binder is more flexible but requires more research.

[Seerow]

Isn't there a bard variant without casting? It'd be worth it to take 1-2 levels just for snowflake wardance and inspire courage.

[ImperatorK]

What about <4 levels of paladin? They don't get casting at that point.
It's more about Paladins restrictiveness.

[Vandicus]

Isn't there a bard variant without casting? It'd be worth it to take 1-2 levels just for snowflake wardance and inspire courage.

Slippers of battledancing combined with a one level dip in barb for pounce makes more sense because it works all day long.

[Vandicus]

It's more about Paladins restrictiveness.

I can see how having to follow Code X would be a serious inconvenience, although there are variants for the alignments. I think that rules out most low level cha to save bonuses though.

[ImperatorK]

I can see how having to follow Code X would be a serious inconvenience, although there are variants for the alignments. I think that rules out most low level cha to save bonuses though.
There is no variant for CN alignment, which is closest to my heart.

[Vandicus]

There is no variant for CN alignment, which is closest to my heart.

I tend towards CN as well with my characters, which is why I've never played any version of a paladin in 3.5. How would you feel about a Corrupt Avenger?

[ImperatorK]

I tend towards CN as well with my characters, which is why I've never played any version of a paladin in 3.5. How would you feel about a Corrupt Avenger?
It doesn't look very impressive.

[Vandicus]

It doesn't look very impressive.

Its for the cha to saves. I couldn't find another way to get it to all saves consistently. It'd be a three level dip, but it violates the noncaster requirement.

[The-Mage-King]

There is no variant for CN alignment, which is closest to my heart.

BZZZT!

Dragon 310. Anarch variant. Page... 47?

[Frosty]

DOing all those dips though makes justifying it roleplay-wise a nightmare. Instead it's just easier to homebrew something up with your DM.

[Seerow]

DOing all those dips though makes justifying it roleplay-wise a nightmare. Instead it's just easier to homebrew something up with your DM.

Only if you consider classes as an in game phenomenon. The general feel of the forum is that it's not, so dipping is fine.

[ImperatorK]

BZZZT!

Dragon 310. Anarch variant. Page... 47?
:smallbiggrin:


DOing all those dips though makes justifying it roleplay-wise a nightmare. Instead it's just easier to homebrew something up with your DM.
Not really.


Only if you consider classes as an in game phenomenon. The general feel of the forum is that it's not, so dipping is fine.
Yeah, what he said.

[The-Mage-King]

DOing all those dips though makes justifying it roleplay-wise a nightmare. Instead it's just easier to homebrew something up with your DM.


Only if you consider classes as an in game phenomenon. The general feel of the forum is that it's not, so dipping is fine.

Exactly what Seerow said. 'course, I know that there are far too many who still don't understand that classes are a metagame concept, and insist on "No more than two classes!1!1!!one!!1"

You can guess what I think of them.



I'd suggest not doing that, though, and going with a TN variant. Otherwise, you can't take Knight of the Sacred Seal, which is Non-Chaotic only. And you want KoSS, for the abilities.

[Person_Man]

There is no variant for CN alignment, which is closest to my heart.

At lower levels the Paladin's bonus to Saves is impressive, but not nearly as impressive as the other class abilities offered by Crusader or Binder. And by default Crusader gets it's Cha to Will Saves and Binder can easily get immunity to mental effects. Both builds end up with high Con, so Fort Saves are rarely an issue. That just leaves Reflex, which can be fixed with a couple of magic items and/or Feats.

[FMArthur]

With a really large Charisma bonus 1 or more levels in marshal are worth it. It's a terrible class to make up the majority of a build with, but adding charisma to Initiative or a save or some charisma-based skill you're trying to max (Intimidate & Iaijutsu Focus) is very handy for little investment, and gives it to all allies withing 60ft of you.

[Frosty]

Only if you consider classes as an in game phenomenon. The general feel of the forum is that it's not, so dipping is fine.
Certain classes are (Paladins for example. Cavaliers from PF.) and it really depends on your DM.

[ImperatorK]

Certain classes are (Paladins for example. Cavaliers from PF.) and it really depends on your DM.
Not exactly. Both a Paladin and a Cavalier could pass up as a samurai for example. There's even a thread that describes a Paladin as a ninja from Naruto. :smalltongue:

[FMArthur]

There are however classes with roleplay requirements, such as being a part of an organization. So while you might not be known as the Microsoft Knight or whatever, you will be known as some Microsoft warrior. When you have multiple such prestige classes, your story starts getting convoluted.

[Morithias]

Really two pages in and no one has mentioned the battledancer? A nice level dip for CHA to AC, and some good unarmed strikes. Also gives you perform for a class skill which you can use to take the brutally powerful (in my opinion) "battledance" epic feat.

[ImperatorK]

There are however classes with roleplay requirements, such as being a part of an organization. So while you might not be known as the Microsoft Knight or whatever, you will be known as some Microsoft warrior. When you have multiple such prestige classes, your story starts getting convoluted.
Refluff it. If the organization doesn't exist in the setting you're playing, are you disallowed from taking it? If your DM allows it, he should work with you the details. And the details can be varied.

Battledancer was mentioned.


brutally powerful (in my opinion) "battledance" epic feat.
It should be rather expected from an epic feat to be powerful. :smallamused:

[Greenish]

A Dex/Cha focused build works pretty well, definitely with things like Targateer(sp?) fighter ACF from DotU and shadowblade.DotU has the Hit and Run Tactics fighter ACF. The Targeteer variant fighter is from Dragon #310.

Former gets Dex to damage vs. flat-footed (within 30'), the latter has (among other options) dex to damage with ranged weapons.

[Zaq]

I find that killoren is a nice race for this. They get a built-in smite (so +CHA to hit, CHA times per day, no more than 1/hr) and they qualify for Charming the Arrow (+CHA to hit with projectile weapons). Fun times.

[Greenish]

Cyran Avenger has a neat smite-like ability: Cha/day, add Cha to attack and deal (CA level) d6 extra damage. It also works on ranged from 3rd level.

[Seerow]

Cyran Avenger has a neat smite-like ability: Cha/day, add Cha to attack and deal (CA level) d6 extra damage. It also works on ranged from 3rd level.

Wow I just googled that and... wow. It's like a supercharged smite usable way more often.

[Person_Man]

Wow I just googled that and... wow. It's like a supercharged smite usable way more often.

Yeah, besides the 4/5 caster progression, the biggest perk of the Cyran Avenger is that they can use their Avenging Strike ability Cha times per day, similar to the Ordained Champion (Complete Champion) who burns Turn Undead uses to Smite, and comparable to the Binder who can Smite once every 5 rounds for each vestige that grants it.

But note that the bonus damage from the Cyran Avenger Avenging Strike is 1d6 * class level (max 5d6), and that bonus dice of damage are never multiplied. So in practice the bonus damage tends to be lower then most other Smite related abilities. And it only works against an enemy that has damaged you, so you often can't use it on the first round of combat, and optimizing your defense (a good thing) becomes somewhat counter productive.

[Seerow]

Yeah, besides the 4/5 caster progression, the biggest perk of the Cyran Avenger is that they can use their Avenging Strike ability Cha times per day, similar to the Ordained Champion (Complete Champion) who burns Turn Undead uses to Smite, and comparable to the Binder who can Smite once every 5 rounds for each vestige that grants it.

But note that the bonus damage from the Cyran Avenger Avenging Strike is 1d6 * class level (max 5d6), and that bonus dice of damage are never multiplied. So in practice the bonus damage tends to be lower then most other Smite related abilities. And it only works against an enemy that has damaged you, so you often can't use it on the first round of combat, and optimizing your defense (a good thing) becomes somewhat counter productive.

The version I saw on the Wizards website said that avenging strike triggers off them hurting allies, not you. So it's like a semi-marking mechanic "You don't want to touch my friends or you WILL regret it"

Also, 5d6 averages to 17.5 damage, while it won't multiply with charging tricks or on a crit, just comparing to baseline smite damage, that's only slightly lower on average than a level 20 paladin. Then you consider you gain that damage from 5 levels. If you made that same dip into Paladin you'd only have +5 damage twice a day, rather than 5d6 damage cha/day. I'd say it's pretty awesome no matter how you look at it.

(That said I'm not arguing it's too strong. I've long been of the opinion that Paladin smites should have been on a /encounter basis, and the bonus damage isn't out of line, it just accumulates much faster)