Unarmed Strike Questions. Help?

[Noctemwolf]

To the Playground. I have a few questions about unarmed strikes.
I am Trying to build a character for a friends campaign, and I am using homebrew Tome of battle material to try and create a monk like character.
That said, I have these questions:

Do Unarmed Strikes count as weapons? Ergo, Could I use Two-Weapon Fighting Rules and feats (The poor man's flurry?)

Next question: Should I take levels in monk for flurry? Would that be a better choice than trying to two-weapon fight?

this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a) article did not help me very much when I went perusing through it. :smalleek:

The best thing I have so far is this:
IF Unarmed attack can count as weapons for things like two weapon fighting, then I can pull off two attacks at level one at -2 penalties apiece. Same with A normal flurry of blows.
However, something in the article seems to say that a monk's unarmed strikes do not count off-hand penalties. so... I dunno.

I have decided to use these things: the Snap Kick feat and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176501) homebrew discipline.

With snap kick and assuming unarmed strikes can be used two weapon fighting, I can get a total -4 to all attacks all the time.
With flurry at higher levels I can decrease that to a -2 penalty, but I don't plan on becoming a 9th level monk (Though I am considering dipping it two levels).

In the end, I guess: What is the right interpretation? Is this Viable? Or should I stop thinking so hard?

[Greenish]

Do Unarmed Strikes count as weapons? Ergo, Could I use Two-Weapon Fighting Rules and feats (The poor man's flurry?)It's a point of contention, with the actual rules being unclear. At least some of the developers thought you're supposed to be able to TWF unarmed strikes, but others disagreed, and technically you only have one unarmed strike.


Next question: Should I take levels in monk for flurry?No.


Would that be a better choice than trying to two-weapon fight?Yes, but only marginally. You'll want to look into Snap Kick (ToB) and Whirling Frenzy (UA/SRD).


Or should I stop thinking so hard?Only if you're not having fun doing it. (And admit it, you like optimizing!)

[sonofzeal]

Do Unarmed Strikes count as weapons?
Yes. From the PHB/SRD: "An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon."

Could I use Two-Weapon Fighting Rules and feats
Yes.

Should I take levels in monk for flurry? Would that be a better choice than trying to two-weapon fight?
Doing both is possible. If you also have Flurry, the benefits and penalties both stack. Two levels in Monk does give you a lot, so if you're going unarmed it's worth considering. Unarmed Swordsage (ToB) is almost universally superior though, if you have access to that.

[TroubleBrewing]

If you're dead-set on Flurry of Blows, try Monk 2/Psychic Warrior with the Tashaltora feat.

If you have ToB material available, sonofzeal said, Unarmed Swordsage is in every way an improvement over standard Monk.

[Noctemwolf]

0-0 Quick responses.


It's a point of contention, with the actual rules being unclear. At least some of the developers thought you're supposed to be able to TWF unarmed strikes, but others disagreed, and technically you only have one unarmed strike.
So, I suppose this is an ask the Dm kind of thing?


And admit it, you like optimizing!
Okay, okay. Though I prefer Roleplaying, I enjoy roleplaying... and kicking butt too. :smallbiggrin:


Do Unarmed Strikes count as weapons?
Yes. From the PHB/SRD: "An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon."
hmm...


Doing both is possible. If you also have Flurry, the benefits and penalties both stack. Two levels in Monk does give you a lot, so if you're going unarmed it's worth considering. Unarmed Swordsage (ToB) is almost universally superior though, if you have access to that.
You can both flurry... and two weapon fight? How does that one work? 0_0*

[sonofzeal]

You can both flurry... and two weapon fight? How does that one work? 0_0*
Let's say a lvl 1 Monk takes TWF. He makes three attacks: -4/-4/-4. "Flurry of Misses" becomes more and more apropos.

[Tvtyrant]

Let's say a lvl 1 Monk takes TWF. He makes three attacks: -4/-4/-4. "Flurry of Misses" becomes more and more apropos.

That is why you make them all trip attempts and pump strength on a Half-Giant :D

[Noctemwolf]

If you're dead-set on Flurry of Blows, try Monk 2/Psychic Warrior with the Tashaltora feat.

If you have ToB material available, sonofzeal said, Unarmed Swordsage is in every way an improvement over standard Monk.

Where does Tashaltora come from, and what does it do? i am Intrigued.
-_0

And seeing as I don't have my Tome of Battle on me... Does Swordsage get evasion? Thats more or less what I was looking for. Oh, the free feats weren't so bad either. :smallbiggrin: They were useful seeing As I have Very few feats to work with... (6th level characters, I believe he said).



Let's say a lvl 1 Monk takes TWF. He makes three attacks: -4/-4/-4. "Flurry of Misses" becomes more and more apropos.
Sounds About right. 0_0**

[TroubleBrewing]

Where does Tashaltora come from, and what does it do? i am Intrigued.

It's out of Secrets of Sarlona, an Eberron book. It makes your Monk levels and manifesting class level stack for the purposes of determining Monk features. It means you get all the useless Monk crap, but on a totally sweet Psychic Warrior chassis!

[sonofzeal]

Where does Tashaltora come from, and what does it do? i am Intrigued.
-_0
Tashalatora is a two-feat chain. It's in Secrets of Sarlona, and requires Monastic Training from Eberron Campaing Setting. Between the two of them, you can add Monk goodies onto the Psionic class of your choice; levelling up that Psi class will progress pretty much all your relevant Monk features. Psychic Warrior and Ardent are the two popular choices for this.


And seeing as I don't have my Tome of Battle on me... Does Swordsage get evasion? Thats more or less what I was looking for. Oh, the free feats weren't so bad either. :smallbiggrin: They were useful seeing As I have Very few feats to work with... (6th level characters, I believe he said).
Monk2 dip is really a waste for Unarmed Swordsage, you already have Wis-to-AC and unarmed strike progression. It'll boost your saves, and get you the feats, but that isn't that big. On the other hand, ToB is multiclass-friendly, so you don't lose that much either. It's viable though not really ideal.

And they get Evasion at lvl 9



Sounds About right. 0_0**[/QUOTE]

[Noctemwolf]

Monk2 dip is really a waste for Unarmed Swordsage, you already have Wis-to-AC and unarmed strike progression. It'll boost your saves, and get you the feats, but that isn't that big. On the other hand, ToB is multiclass-friendly, so you don't lose that much either. It's viable though not really ideal.

And they get Evasion at lvl 9


It's out of Secrets of Sarlona, an Eberron book. It makes your Monk levels and manifesting class level stack for the purposes of determining Monk features. It means you get all the useless Monk crap, but on a totally sweet Psychic Warrior chassis!

So the paths for a decent Monk come either through unarmed Swordsage, or Tashalatora and psychic classes. Hm...
Guess I'll have to figure which one I like more.
And ask if my Unarmed strikes can be two weaponed. If not, I could always wield a weapon in one hand and unarmed strike with the other... or with my knees, or foot, or head...
:smallbiggrin:

[sonofzeal]

So the paths for a decent Monk come either through unarmed Swordsage, or Tashalatora and psychic classes.
For very large values of "decent". Both are quite potent Tier 3's. I've played both, and both were highly effective.

Swordsage - more "martial artist" feel, more flexible offence, simpler build. Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Diamond Mind. Maybe a little Tiger Claw. Take a few feats like Improved Natural Attack and Superior Unarmed Strike, and you're golden.

Tashalatora PsiWar - can pass as the default Monk class, but PsiWar powers fix every single one of the known critical flaws in the class. Inertial Armor and Lion's Charge alone bring you up to speed with nice AC and salvaged offence, the rest is candy. The only thing a Core Monk has over you is ground speed, but there's powers for that too and you can get Speed of Thought with all your bonus feats. Just a note though, Metamorphosis on a Tashalatora PsiWar is not kosher. I calculated my Flurry routine using an Elsewhale under the effects of Expansion, and the results were off the frigging chart. Literally - no source I found had unarmed damage scaling that far, but I know I don't own enough d8's for that.

[TroubleBrewing]

Just a note though, Metamorphosis on a Tashalatora PsiWar is not kosher. I calculated my Flurry routine using an Elsewhale under the effects of Expansion, and the results were off the frigging chart. Literally - no source I found had unarmed damage scaling that far, but I know I don't own enough d8's for that.

Online dice roller as a last resort? Proof positive that you've fixed the Monk.

[sonofzeal]

Online dice roller as a last resort? Proof positive that you've fixed the Monk.
Yeah... but rolling fistfuls of dice is the entire reason I love combat! IIRC, the progression capped out at 16d8 and I was one step beyond that (20d8?), per strike, with about six attacks a turn at a huge bonus. I had to voluntarily nerf myself, then nerf myself again, and even then I was completely dominating combat in a party including a pure Sorcerer and a Druid/Wizard/ArcaneHeirophant.

[Noctemwolf]

0_0** Well then. Seems I have some work ahead of me. hehehehh... Lets see what they say when I show up with the new and improved monk! :smallwink:

[Divide by Zero]

You don't have 20 d8's? Shame.

[Keld Denar]

24d8 is the next step. It follows a 3/2 4/3 alternating progression. 36d8 is the next step above that, and 48d8 after that.

[sonofzeal]

You don't have 20 d8's? Shame.
Between all the people who come, I might be able to scrounge together twenty d8's, but even that's unlikely. The problem, though, was that he could flurry with that. Rolling all his damage together would have required one of these (http://www.supplierlist.com/photo_images/7380/Cement_Mixer.jpg).

[TroubleBrewing]

I watched a high-level shadowpouncing Rogue-type roll all of his SA damage with an empty 1-gallon ice cream container once.

Hilarity did not ensue once those dice hit the table and scattered like cockroaches in a dirty apartment. :smallannoyed:

[Divide by Zero]

Rolling all his damage together would have required one of these (http://www.supplierlist.com/photo_images/7380/Cement_Mixer.jpg).

You've obviously never played Shadowrun :smalltongue:

[sonofzeal]

I watched a high-level shadowpouncing Rogue-type roll all of his SA damage with an empty 1-gallon ice cream container once.

Hilarity did not ensue once those dice hit the table and scattered like cockroaches in a dirty apartment. :smallannoyed:
We have several solutions for that. Generally speaking, we try to roll against a barrier of some kind, usually our other hand or arm. That keeps them contained to an appropriate area of the table, instead of skittering off into miniatures and whatnot.

I'm not sure how well it'd work for triple digits of dice though...

[Darrin]

So, I suppose this is an ask the Dm kind of thing?


Not entirely. The full quote from the PHB/SRD:

"Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on)." (emphasis added)

Thus, by RAW (Rules As Written), you can use an unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon for TWF.

One of the points of contention is if you're allowed to use an unarmed strike as both the primary and off-hand weapon in TWF. Some folks (such as Greenish?) believe you only have one unarmed strike, and if it's primary, then you should find something else for your off-hand attack. Others feel that the unarmed attack rules mention multiple kicks, elbows, head-butts, so you have dozens if not hundreds of different striking surfaces, and thus why not use unarmed strike as both your primary and off-hand attack? From a mechanics standpoint, there's really no significant game-balance issues or a compelling reason to be so nitpicky about unarmed strikes, so it's a good idea to check with your DM and settle some of the wonky issues with unarmed strikes:

1) Are monks proficient with unarmed strikes? (RAW says no, common sense says WTF are we still arguing about this a decade after 3rd edition was released?)

2) Are non-monk unarmed strikes treated as natural weapons for the purposes of feats, abilities, and certain spell effects outside of magic weapon/magic fang? (RAW is unclear, Skip Williams says no, Keld's Miniguide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0) says yes.)

3) Can monks use unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon even though their class abilities say, "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed"? (Yes. This sentence is referring to how a Monk always gets full Str bonus on unarmed strikes, as the next sentence clarifies. This means they get full Str bonus on off-hand unarmed strikes, which normally only get 1/2 Str bonus by RAW.)

4) Can TWF and Flurry be combined? (FAQ says yes, most everyone agrees that this is one of the less blatant outlandishly stupid/wrong sections of the FAQ.)



You can both flurry... and two weapon fight? How does that one work? 0_0*

Not very well.

-2 penalty for flurry, -2 penalty for TWF, -4 total on a medium-BAB chassis with MAD (Multiple Ability Dependency) means you've got a good chance of getting fitted for a Golden Sombrero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_sombrero).

The sticking point with combining Flurry with other extra attacks is Flurry has the requirement: "The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows." (It actually mentions this requirement twice.) It's not clear if this rule still applies to extra attacks outside of the Flurry gained via some other method (such as TWF, secondary natural weapons, haste, etc.), but I think most folks around here feel the Flurry restrictions apply to every attack you make that round. But as long as your off-hand weapon is still something you can Flurry with, you should be fine to add TWF attacks. Check with your DM to be sure, though.

[Coidzor]

And ask if my Unarmed strikes can be two weaponed. If not, I could always wield a weapon in one hand and unarmed strike with the other... or with my knees, or foot, or head...
:smallbiggrin:

Or wield a weapon in two hands and unarmed strike with some other body part. :smallbiggrin:

[kardar233]

Yeah... but rolling fistfuls of dice is the entire reason I love combat! IIRC, the progression capped out at 16d8 and I was one step beyond that (20d8?), per strike, with about six attacks a turn at a huge bonus. I had to voluntarily nerf myself, then nerf myself again, and even then I was completely dominating combat in a party including a pure Sorcerer and a Druid/Wizard/ArcaneHeirophant.

Feh. Check over here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19539114/Psychic_Warrior_Build_Guide_38;_Compendium_Revised ) and scroll down to the Kalashtar God of Smack. 192d8 damage per attack, 10 attacks per round. Enchant your gauntlets with Bodyfeeding (and Mindfeeding if you want to have way too many PP) and manifest Vampiric Claws. I once built a version of this guy who could solo a Hecatoncheires at level 21 with only physical damage, by using Karmic Strike+Robilar's Gambit to hit him twice for each time he hits me, and healing half my damage and gaining all of it in temporary hit points.

[Keld Denar]

2) Are non-monk unarmed strikes treated as natural weapons for the purposes of feats, abilities, and certain spell effects outside of magic weapon/magic fang? (RAW is unclear, Skip Williams says no, Keld's Miniguide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0) says yes.)
The reason I say yes is that there are only two types of weapons. There are natural weapons and manufactured weapons. Even though you can make iterative attacks with an UAS, it is not a manufactured weapon. If its not a manufactured weapon, then it HAS to be a natural weapon. Given that it can only be affected by Magic Fang supports this interpretation, IMO.


3) Can monks use unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon even though their class abilities say, "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed"? (Yes. This sentence is referring to how a Monk always gets full Str bonus on unarmed strikes, as the next sentence clarifies. This means they get full Str bonus on off-hand unarmed strikes, which normally only get 1/2 Str bonus by RAW.)

This part is something I don't agree with. My justification is thus: NOBODY has an offhand attack, not until you give them one (by using the TWFing combat option). A fighter can hold a longsword in one hand and a battleaxe in the other, and as long as his BAB is high enough, he can attack with both in a round without invoking the TWFing rules (if his BAB is +6, he could attack with the longsword at +6 and the battleaxe at +1, or the battleaxe at +6 and the longsword at +1). That line of text comes right after the section about how a monk can strike with either hand, or any non-hand part of their body interchangably. Just like the fighter, the monk can strike with either of his hands, his kneeds, elbows, feet, head, or anything, and as long as he doesn't get more attacks/round than his BAB + flurry would grant, none of his attacks are offhand attack even if they are made with either hand. The text simply reminds the player that they are not invoking TWFing rules.

Now, if a monk with a +6 BAB strikes someone with his sai with Flurry of Blows, he would get 3 attack (+5/+5/+0). If he also punched them, he would be getting more attacks/round than he is normally allowed via the TWFing action. Since he's doing that, he follows the TWFing rules, makes his attacks at (+3/+3/+3/-2), with the 3rd +3 attack being considered an offhand and only gaining the benefit of 1/2 +Str bonus.

There is no such thing as a monk making offhand attacks while making his normally alotted attacks. All attacks are main hand attacks, UNTIL YOU EXPLICITLY GIVE HIM AN OFFHAND ATTACK.

Anyway, thats my reading of the text. If they had either included that line for all classes, or excluded it for the monk, it would still be internally consistant, and there would be no arguement.

[Noctemwolf]

Hi Keld!

Weirdly enough, I get the feeling that the article I mentioned earlier (here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a))
Says monks don't count offhand penalties. Underneath the one headed Monks and Manufactured Weapons:


For example a 7th-level monk with a Strength score of 15 that uses a longspear as a primary weapon and makes an off-hand unarmed attack has attack bonuses that are +3 longspear, +7 unarmed. This breaks down as follows: The longspear is +5 base, +2 Strength, -4 two-weapon (off-hand weapon is light). The unarmed strike is +5 base, +2 Strength -- off-hand penalties don't apply to a monk's unarmed strike. Because a longspear is a two-handed weapon, damage from the weapon is 1d8+3. Damage for the unarmed strike is 1d8+2 -- a monk gets her full Strength bonus for unarmed strikes, even when used as off-hand attacks.

I'm guessing that this is a rather liberal interpretation of the rule as given in the SRD though?

There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

and wait... now the article seems to be saying you can wield a two-handed weapon one handed with TWF? Now I am thoroughly confused 0_o** (Probably something like using a knee or something, never mind).

This is another case of ask the DM and ye shall receive (Their judgement).

[Keld Denar]

OR this is another case where the sage has no clue what he's talking about.

The reading I proposed is internally consistant. No character, monk or otherwise, has an offhand, no matter which hand he attacks with (or if he attacks with no hands, in the case of Armor Spikes) UNLESS he is using the TWFing combat option. Its simple, follows the rules as presented in the PHB, and, most importantly, is consistant and without exception.