OOTS & 8-Bit Theater

[Brom]

I recently got around to reading 8-Bit Theater, and man, what fun that was.

I just have to ask:

Am I the only one who finds Haley's money grubbing tendencies (and that of her dad) bland and uninspired in light of Thief? Like it's something Rich might have thrown in because he saw it worked well somewhere? It doesn't work as well here, in my opinion. There's a lot of reasons, but I think the unifying theme and bottom line to those reasons is that she's just not evil enough.

Thief's tendencies in 8-Bit were totally vile in some ways, but they also made you develop a sneaking admiration for the bastard for being both so clever and so bold. Haley just feels...half hearted. No other NPC takes it seriously so it's hard to do it as a reader, and she's inconsistent with it.

I admit I'm a little confused as to why this is popping up just now for me and why it's making me retroactively dislike a large section of the panels where Haley has mentioned her money obsession. OOTS as a whole is enjoyable, it's just that now I cringe when I think of those parts. I wonder why Rich stuck it in the narrative. There's archtypes, yes, and I know Rich could very well become the champion for TVTropes, so beautiful and frequent are his use of well known devices, but the comparison between the two webcomics is close enough for me that it feels more uninspired than merely a trope in use.

I'm rambling a bit. It occurred to me and I reckoned I'd post it here.

[Esprit15]

Maybe because Haley is actually good and has (had?) an ulterior motive for all the money grabbing.

[FujinAkari]

Iit should be noted that Haley is -not- obsessed with money and hasn't been for about five-hundred strips.

Secondly, I would say calling Rich a 'champion of TVtropes' is laughable because OOTS tends to subvert tropes FAR more often than it blindly follows cliche.

So no, Haley is a very different character than Thief, both more believable and more dynamic. I don't find her even remotely "uninspired."

I can see, when you take only one facet of a character's personality and examine it to exclusion, then it will seem incomplete. Well, it is. Look at the whole character :P

[druid91]

Maybe because Haley is actually good and has (had?) an ulterior motive for all the money grabbing.

Nope, she's still obsessed with money. She just doesn't need it quite as urgently.

[Mutant Sheep]

Nope, she's still obsessed with money. She just doesn't need it quite as urgently.

Yeah, fantasies about doing...things on a massive pile of gold is definitely a sign of obsession. Nobody ever has that kind of thought, right? *looks around nervously and runs away*

[factotum]

There's a lot of reasons, but I think the unifying theme and bottom line to those reasons is that she's just not evil enough.


That's because she's not evil. I'm a bit puzzled as to why you think that Thief from 8-bit Theatre is the be-all and end-all of thieves and that all other fictional thieves should be like him, to be honest...are you also annoyed that Roy isn't anything like Fighter, or that V isn't like Red Mage?

[Brom]

That's because she's not evil. I'm a bit puzzled as to why you think that Thief from 8-bit Theatre is the be-all and end-all of thieves and that all other fictional thieves should be like him, to be honest...are you also annoyed that Roy isn't anything like Fighter, or that V isn't like Red Mage?

I don't think that all other fictional thieves should be like him. I think that if something is going to be so heavily borrowed from him, they should borrow everything from him that made that work, or else use a formula that makes the borrowed element work well.

Haley's money obsession feels like a sideshow and detraction from the story and seems at odds with the rest of her personality. It's really token, to the extent that Celia's comments about, ''killing someone for money,'' don't really make sense to me. It just isn't convincingly inherent to her personality, and it was like that before I read 8-Bit.

Roy has tons of things that separate him from Fighter, and doesn't really borrow much from him. It doesn't feel derivative. Same with V. Haley, on the other hand, is starting to feel like an off-color version of Thief in my head.

I don't feel the 8-Bit cast was the be-all end all of webcomics. That would do horrible things to my ability to enjoy the medium. I just feel like the similarities between Haley and Thief are uncanny except Haley is missing the things that made Thief shine and hobbling along with the rest of the things inherent to Thief in some ways.

[Gift Jeraff]

Haley is Chaotic Good-ish. Thief is a flat-out evil bigot. They also live in completely different settings. OOTS is a fairly light-hearted comedy adventure. 8BT is a black comedy where everyone's flaws and abilities are exaggerated to cartoonish degrees. Black Mage makes Belkar look like a pacifist, Bikke makes Thog look like a mature genius, a king talking to a coffee stain is far more insane than a king talking to a cat, etc. 8BT also has far, far looser rules--whatever's funny flies. Thus, Thief is capable of far more impressive acts of greed (stealing souls, secrets, class changes in the future, etc.) than Haley (stealing from the cast page is just about it). :smalltongue:

I can definitely see why you feel that way, though. When I started reading OOTS, I practically rolled my eyes when characters would talk about Belkar's evilness, and I felt similarly with Haley's greed. I just had to get into the OOTS mindset, in which case Haley is a very greedy and impressive thief. Under the 8BT mindset...not so much.

[Kurald Galain]

Am I the only one who finds Haley's money grubbing tendencies (and that of her dad) bland and uninspired in light of Thief?
Frankly I don't see any resemblance between Haley and Thief, besides the fact that they occasionally steal things. Given that both OOTS and 8Bit are based on an RPG, and that thief is a common RPG archetype, it's hardly surprising.

Would you say that Roy is like Fighter becaus they both like swords? That V is like Red Mage because they both talk a lot? Just because you can draw an analogy between two characters doesn't make one of them a rip-off.

[ThePhantasm]

So you like one thief character better than another and because of this you think Rich is... uninspired? Because he didn't directly copy someone else's character?

Haley is one of the most developed and complex characters in OOTS. Her reasons for thievery go far beyond something as bland as money-obsession.

[Klear]

I've got it the other way around. At first I was amused by 8-bit theater, but in time the grotesque exaggerations of characters became extremely tiresome. It's much better to have a comic with characters that feel like human beings and not just absurd caricatures. That only leads to very cheap jokes in the end.

I still read the whole 8-bit theater... I have no life!

[Asthix]

I've gotta agree with Klear. What is there about Thief besides the stealing? Sure it makes for some good jokes, but I would call Thief a one dimensional character, whereas Haley has a lot going on besides that.

But you asserted that Haley's money grubbing tendencies were bland and uninspired compared to Thief's, not the character. I would disagree and say that I find them balanced and believable compared to a character that is a walking archetype. (Thief)

[factotum]

I think that if something is going to be so heavily borrowed from him, they should borrow everything from him that made that work, or else use a formula that makes the borrowed element work well.


:smallconfused: I really can't say anything other than "WTF?" to that statement. The idea that Haley borrows *any* part of Thief from 8BT other than her profession is baffling, to my mind.

[Klear]

I would disagree and say that I find them balanced and believable compared to a character that is a walking archetype. (Thief)

I'd go as far to call him a walking stereotype. Archetype sounds too noble for him =)

[theinsulabot]

for pure humor, I would definitely go with 8-bit. oots was funny, but not consistently falling out of your chair hilarious like 8-bit. but characterization wise? nothing doing. 8-bit was just a bunch of arche-types who weren't afraid of who they were, oots is much better.


I miss 8-bit though. brian went down hill fast after that ended. I dont even read his stuff anymore

[FujinAkari]

:smallconfused: I really can't say anything other than "WTF?" to that statement. The idea that Haley borrows *any* part of Thief from 8BT other than her profession is baffling, to my mind.

Agreed...

I have a question: How exactly did you (OP) determine that Haley had been molded after Thief instead of one of the other millions of roguish characters that are obsessed with gold?

Thief is really just a walking cliche, which is ok because that is what he is meant to be, but oddly you seem to think that the cliche -originated- wtih 8-bit.

I don't mean to be rude, I'm just not sure how you reached that conclusion. Ultimately, other than them both having an obsession for Gold (an -extremely- common trait) what gives you the idea that Thief had anything to do with Haley, character-wise?

[Lucid Inebriate]

Iit should be noted that Haley is -not- obsessed with money and hasn't been for about five-hundred strips.

Secondly, I would say calling Rich a 'champion of TVtropes' is laughable because OOTS tends to subvert tropes FAR more often than it blindly follows cliche.

So no, Haley is a very different character than Thief, both more believable and more dynamic. I don't find her even remotely "uninspired."

I can see, when you take only one facet of a character's personality and examine it to exclusion, then it will seem incomplete. Well, it is. Look at the whole character :P

While I would agree that Rich is not a champion of TVTropes, I will point out that a trope is defined in the dictionary as any figurative device, and is used on TVTropes to signify a well-known element or tendency that has made itself ubiquitous in storytelling, generally for one of two reasons: 1. It appeals to an aspect of the human psyche and is therefore able to be understood universally, or 2. It is enjoyable to a large number and/or wide variety of people.

Neither of these amounts to blindly following cliche; a writer cannot help but employ tropes from TVTropes, even if he has never visited the website, not because TVTropes is offering "cliches" for every single writer to copy unimaginatively, but because some of the tropes there are descriptions of storytelling elements that Homer, Plato, Shakespeare, Voltaire, Oscar Wilde, Rich Burlew and various mythological and religious stories stumbled upon well before the advent of the internet. Every story told by a human, be it in the form of a comic, a play, or a novel, shares certain characteristics to the extent that mankind shares certain characteristics. People still wrote of forbidden love after Romeo and Juliet premiered, because Romeo and Juliet copied its plot from an older Italian tale, and the basic premise of two young lovers whose families oppose their love had already been discovered by countless storytellers well before England or Italy existed.

We have not the right to be angry at our ancestors for telling similar stories, for they were similar creatures, nor have we the right to be angry at each other for doing the same. I resent the implication that people who like TVTropes are poor or uncreative writers. As for your comment that Rich Burlew subverts tropes more than he "blindly follows cliche," TVTropes happens to have a "subversions" section for like, every trope on their website. It's inevitable that writers will want to play with or twist certain tropes in the "opposite" direction, though this is not always desirable or practicable in every story. It happens to be very practicable in OOTS, as it is meant to be a parody; the basic premise of every parody is a story that subverts serious tropes or cliches to humorous effect (a cliche is basically what happens when untalented writers overuse a trope to imitate Shakespeare, Virgil, etc.) I actually believe that if you're secure in your writing ability, you shouldn't disrupt the natural course of a plot simply because it takes you to a point that people would call cliche, but that's neither here nor there.

For an example of what I mean, look at the strip in which a literal lampshade is hung by Redcloak. This happened in spite of the fact that Rich Burlew (as far as I know; can someone confirm?) has never visited TVTropes. "Lampshade hanging", both as a "trope" and an actual term, predates its usage on TVTropes and was used by Terry Pratchett as well as Shakespeare (If this were played upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction - Twelfth Night, as well as the entire play-within-a-play scene in Hamlet). The concept of lamp shading was probably employed in ancient Greek or Chinese literature, for that matter. They didn't have internet, and they weren't necessarily poor writers. Shakespeare, Terry Pratchett and Rich Burlew certainly aren't, though they employ and subvert tropes all the time in their works.

[Kurald Galain]

Thief is really just a walking cliche, which is ok because that is what he is meant to be, but oddly you seem to think that the cliche -originated- wtih 8-bit.
As the Golden Rule of TVtropes says, "Shakespeare Did It First".

[ThePhantasm]

If anyone mentions the word "trope" again I just might go insane. That word should be outlawed.

[Kurald Galain]

That word should be outlawed.

There's a trope about that... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThereShouldBeALaw) :smalltongue:

[G-Man Graves]

If anyone mentions the word "trope" again I just might go insane. That word should be outlawed.

I tend to view it as a code word for "I lack the ability to come up with my own ideas, feel free to disregard."

[Lucid Inebriate]

I tend to view it as a code word for "I lack the ability to come up with my own ideas, feel free to disregard."

On what basis?

[Zevox]

I don't think that all other fictional thieves should be like him. I think that if something is going to be so heavily borrowed from him, they should borrow everything from him that made that work, or else use a formula that makes the borrowed element work well.
Er, Haley doesn't borrow anything from Thief. A thief character having a money obsession is not in any way unique to him - quite the contrary, he is what he is because it's such a broad stereotype.

8-Bit Theater is, in broad strokes, a parody of the original Final Fantasy game, and its characters reflect that. All the main characters in that game were silent protagonists, so the only defining trait they had was their class. 8-Bit Theater takes that and plays it up to hilarious effect by making the characters' personalities, actions, and even names reflect that. (Albeit while also giving the characters some few traits beyond their classes, like Thief being the Elf Prince and all that entailed, or Black Mage's one rather sincerely non-evil note to White Mage.)

Haley is not a character defined solely by her class. She exhibits some of the stereotypical traits of a thief/rogue character, sometimes to excess (Belkar mentioning that she literally polished every gold piece they had way back when), but she isn't the over-the-top exaggeration and parody of it that Thief was. That is only one part of who she is, and is not supposed to be any more than that.

Zevox

[G-Man Graves]

On what basis?

On the basis that people will just link to a tvtrope page instead of explaining what they mean themselves. I don't even have a huge problem with using trope names in a post, but explain what you mean yourself, don't expect people to go to another site because you can't be bothered.

[ThePhantasm]

Seriously though, this forum would be a happier place if we all agreed on an unwritten moratorium on two things. First, charges that something is unoriginal, and second, discussion of tropes. When I first came here a few years ago it seemed like tropes were mentioned a lot less frequently, now it is every discussion - "Trope this, trope that, is Rich lampshading this trope?, was Rich inspired by this?" And the arguments about the tropes go on and on because there's so many tropes. This is madness, I tell you, madness!

I'm not saying people can't post what they want to. I mean, if people actually enjoy these trope discussions, have at it, and I'll just watch at a distance. But I can't recall a single discussion that actually went anywhere... they are like discursive black holes. Tropes suck the life out of threads.

That's just my opinion, feel free to disagree.

[Mutant Sheep]

Seriously though, this forum would be a happier place if we all agreed on an unwritten moratorium on two things. First, charges that something is unoriginal, and second, discussion of tropes. When I first came here a few years ago it seemed like tropes were mentioned a lot less frequently, now it is every discussion - "Trope this, trope that, is Rich lampshading this trope?, was Rich inspired by this?" And the arguments about the tropes go on and on because there's so many tropes. This is madness, I tell you, madness!

I'm not saying people can't post what they want to. I mean, if people actually enjoy these trope discussions, have at it, and I'll just watch at a distance. But I can't recall a single discussion that actually went anywhere... they are like discursive black holes. Tropes suck the life out of threads.

That's just my opinion, feel free to disagree.
Think theres probably a vampire trope for that.:smallamused: Or TV Tropes will ruin your life forum. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife):smalltongue::smalltongue : Agreed, trope overdose is annoying, but it makes it so much easier.

[sims796]

Secondly, I would say calling Rich a 'champion of TVtropes' is laughable because OOTS tends to subvert tropes FAR more often than it blindly follows cliche.


Hmhmhm...He subverts tropes...while falling into 12 others. You cannot escape TVtropes. It is impossible...for we are the alpha, the omega.

But seriously, I saw the connection to 8-Bit theater myself. Nothing big, just sorta funny.

[137beth]

Haley does NOT fall into the same category as Thief. Thief is out for nothing but money. Haley is out for money, her father, Elan, saving the world, and a care about other good humans. Remember, Haley is Good-aligned. Thief, if alignments existed in FF, would definitely not be good (I'd say he's lawful evil, or neutral evil).

[Kurald Galain]

second, discussion of tropes.
Everything on this board is a discussion of tropes, and it was so even before people knew of the TVtropes website. That's just what tropes are.


Thief, if alignments existed in FF, would definitely not be good (I'd say he's lawful evil, or neutral evil).
I don't think Thief is lawful; he just expects other people to obey him while he cheats.

[ThePhantasm]

Think theres probably a vampire trope for that.:smallamused: Or TV Tropes will ruin your life forum. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife):smalltongue::smalltongue : Agreed, trope overdose is annoying, but it makes it so much easier.

Lol, well, I don't have some sort of philosophical qualm with tropes as analytical tools. I'm more miffed by the resultant discussions on these forums, which half the time don't take the "goodies" on above linked page into account, and also sink the conversation into pits of "original / unoriginal" and "trope vs. trope" arguments. The problem with trope arguments is that TVtropes is a nigh inexhaustible arsenal of debate "evidence" to throw at one's opponent in discourse. But since tropes aren't really supposed to be used that way, the arguments end up devolving quickly into inanity, moving nowhere and often derailing the discussion to an extent from which the thread cannot recover. Having seen it many a time, my preference would be for people to avoid bringing up tropes unless it is some sort of last resort.


Everything on this board is a discussion of tropes, and it was so even before people knew of the TVtropes website. That's just what tropes are.

I'm more than aware of that. Perhaps my above explanation with further clarify what point I'm trying to convey.

[Kibble Sage]

If tropes are this universal, then they are essentially useless as a debating tool, because they basically all boil down to a single statement: "this idea exists".

[Kurald Galain]

If tropes are this universal, then they are essentially useless as a debating tool, because they basically all boil down to a single statement: "this idea exists".

No, that's not it.

Unfortunately the easiest way to show you what's wrong with your statement is to ask you to read a few pages on TVtropes.

[Mutant Sheep]

No, that's not it.

Unfortunately the easiest way to show you what's wrong with your statement is to ask you to read a few pages on TVtropes.


TVtropes, that dark place of despair, compiled by innumerable drones and trolls. Hey, it's like Mordor!

As quoted, it's a dark place of despair, and voluntarily going there will doom your sanity. You will spend long hours with 12 tabs open, and before you know it you go from a OotS page to My Little Pony.:smalltongue: But yeah, check out a page or 3, cant hurt at all, right?

[Esprit15]

As quoted, it's a dark place of despair, and voluntarily going there will doom your sanity. You will spend long hours with 12 tabs open, and before you know it you go from a OotS page to My Little Pony.:smalltongue: But yeah, check out a page or 3, cant hurt at all, right?

BAH! Half my days are spent with twelve tabs open anyways! :smallamused:

[Zevox]

Haley does NOT fall into the same category as Thief. Thief is out for nothing but money. Haley is out for money, her father, Elan, saving the world, and a care about other good humans. Remember, Haley is Good-aligned. Thief, if alignments existed in FF, would definitely not be good (I'd say he's lawful evil, or neutral evil).
To be fair, Thief turned out to be out to help his father/homeland as well. It's just that he's still just as greedy a bastard after that goal is accomplished as before.

Yeah, alignment-wise, he's definitely evil. Not sure about the law/chaos axis, but definitely evil. I mean, even if his tendency to steal everything within a five mile radius didn't qualify him for that (it does), the whole "lets commit genocide against the Dwarves" thing would.

Zevox

[KillianHawkeye]

What is there about Thief besides the stealing? Sure it makes for some good jokes, but I would call Thief a one dimensional character

Actually, he's a two-dimensional character. He has stealing and racial hatred (A.K.A. elven superiority).

[iBear]

The only similarity between 8-Bit's Thief and OotS's Haley is that they both take things that don't belong to them. Calling Haley a watered-down version of Thief is like calling Batman a watered-down version of Superman.

[Kurald Galain]

BAH! Half my days are spent with twelve tabs open anyways! :smallamused:

Muahahahah! (http://www.xkcd.org/609/)

[Dvandemon]

I feel the OP is giving B-Bit too much credit and Rich too little. Seriously it's like the rabid fans that claim a similar is unoriginal just because they share a single aspect.

EDIT: P.S. Let's take a step away about how we feel about tropes and get back to the point about the OP. I believe he is wrong and misguided in his thought about OoTS and 8-Bit Theater. I also believe his point is really irrational, could someone summarize what they think it is so I can be sure I read it right?

[Kato]

Okay, we all know tv tropes is good and bad and hell and heaven and all stuff at the same time, back on topic.


Yeah, as the vast majority said... they are both rogues. And rogues steal. That's about the one thing they have in common (okay, and they both started with a secret purpose behind their theft) But really, if haley wouldn't steal a little (and she does it hardly as often as Thief does who robs any town he enters of everything that's nailed down and/or on fire (right, he steals even that)) Haley's a saint in that respect and both have other character traits as well.

Not that it really matters, but apart from his Elven superiority and kleptomania Thief's not that bad a person (though this might just be because next to BM and the other evil characters in the comic everyone looks like a LG paladin) He's not even really evil, just really, really selfish but he's not going around hurting people for the lulz. (except if they are dwarves) (Again, maybe I shouldn't use BM as a guideline for alignment but... yeah)

[Nimrod's Son]

I feel the OP is giving B-Bit too much credit and Rich too little.
Yes. In fact, I struggle with the idea that someone could have encountered the two comics and still think BOTH of them are worth reading. Unless "based on an RPG" is utterly crucial to your enjoyment of a work of fiction, that is.

I came across 8-Bit through Rich's guest strip, read a handful and quickly thought, "Yeah, seen enough of that, cheers". Then after reading an absolute slew of praise for it over the years, I've gone back and tried again. I'm about a third of the way through, and have been (internally) entertained by about three or four punchlines so far. I'm only slogging on through sheer stubbornness; it's the most repetitive, badly-characterised, lazy dross I've read in quite some time, and the idea that Haley is "based heavily" on the character of Thief is laughable.

Actually, calling Thief a "character" full stop is pushing it; there's about as much character to his eponymous dictionary entry.

[Dvandemon]

While I have no complete opinion of 8-Bit, I must clarify that I meant that the OP seems to be coming from an apparent high of 8BT and finding his buzzed killed by the entirely different Haley. This is a very illogical and misguided criticism and he seems to believe that Rich is borrowing elements from anything. Where is the OP in all this anyways?

[Dr.Epic]

I recently got around to reading 8-Bit Theater, and man, what fun that was.

I just have to ask:

Am I the only one who finds Haley's money grubbing tendencies (and that of her dad) bland and uninspired in light of Thief? Like it's something Rich might have thrown in because he saw it worked well somewhere? It doesn't work as well here, in my opinion. There's a lot of reasons, but I think the unifying theme and bottom line to those reasons is that she's just not evil enough.

Thief's tendencies in 8-Bit were totally vile in some ways, but they also made you develop a sneaking admiration for the bastard for being both so clever and so bold. Haley just feels...half hearted. No other NPC takes it seriously so it's hard to do it as a reader, and she's inconsistent with it.

I admit I'm a little confused as to why this is popping up just now for me and why it's making me retroactively dislike a large section of the panels where Haley has mentioned her money obsession. OOTS as a whole is enjoyable, it's just that now I cringe when I think of those parts. I wonder why Rich stuck it in the narrative. There's archtypes, yes, and I know Rich could very well become the champion for TVTropes, so beautiful and frequent are his use of well known devices, but the comparison between the two webcomics is close enough for me that it feels more uninspired than merely a trope in use.

I'm rambling a bit. It occurred to me and I reckoned I'd post it here.

You think 8-Bit theater came up with the idea - nah, the archetype - of the greedy thief? What rock have you been living under?

[Mutant Sheep]

You think 8-Bit theater came up with the idea - nah, the archetype - of the greedy thief? What rock have you been living under?

An 8-bit rock. *badum *crash* And then who did come up with the thief then? Are you saying that humanity noticed there were very greedy people then exaggerated their traits that they had and then put them in various media and artforms as parodies and jokes? The very THOUGHT, sir!

[Valley]

I am a tad confussed...I did a web search for 8-Bit Theater and found something that looked like a artist was using a old video game and making a cartoon with it...did I find the right site??

Because it did not seem at all funny to me.

[Mutant Sheep]

I am a tad confussed...I did a web search for 8-Bit Theater and found something that looked like a artist was using a old video game and making a cartoon with it...did I find the right site??

Because it did not seem at all funny to me.

Yeah, the comic is all 8-bit. That's the best part of it, the way it looks like Final Fantasy. If you give it time, it usually grows on you. Usually. Sometimes it doesn't, like if you don't like crazy logic leaps. Red Mage is awesome though. He's like MitD mixed with Belkar, that guy from Inception, and Zoidburg.

[Zevox]

I am a tad confussed...I did a web search for 8-Bit Theater and found something that looked like a artist was using a old video game and making a cartoon with it...did I find the right site??
Yes - hence the title, "8-Bit Theater." Most of the sprites were taken from the original Final Fantasy, others were taken from other 8-, 16-, and 32-bit games (one from Chrono Trigger sticks out in my mind, and I'm sure some are from other Final Fantasy titles, and I think one was from a Fire Emblem game). The creator did some alterations himself, but always based on those sprites.

I love the comic myself - it'd be my second favorite webcomic, after OotS. And I've gotta say, having just recently played the original Final Fantasy for the first time (okay, the PSP remake, but still), the comic definitely helped me enjoy the game more than I would have (since I could see things it had taken from the game and made fun of all over the place; plus I played with the comic's party), and playing the game has made me appreciate the comic and its parodies that much more.

Zevox

[VanBuren]

It definitely takes time to find it's rhythm, but I found it pretty funny, especially when Red Mage finally dresses down Elven culture despite the fact that Thief has always been acting like it's better than everyone else's.

RM: Oh, it's good to see civilization again.

T: Civilization? No. This is a collection of shanties built by monkeys. Establish a stable, unified society with ten thousand years of beautiful culture, and then we'll talk.

RM: Y'know, I've always meant to ask you something. If you Elves are so great, why is your technology on par with humans even though you had a nine thousand year head start?

*silence*

T: It's. That's how we like it.

RM: And how unified can Elf society be when there was that outcast clan? They were fighting a shadow war to dissolve your kingdom.

BM: One of them poisoned your dad.

RM: In fact, wasn't the throne nearly usurped by them had it not been for our extremely non-elfy intervention?

T: No more questions. The answers would only further confuse your simple minds.

Plus it has one of the longest callbacks in Webcomic history.

[Kato]

Yeah, I also enjoy 8BT a LOT. I can see why people would not do so (though I'd like those to not insult the comic just because they don't like the humor)
It's full of all this nice bickering and even if they cut out most of the violence it'd still be pretty funny... but I like BM's crazy violence nonethless :smallbiggrin:



Though. I don't think the OP was ... I don't really know. He failed to see that haley is more than a rogue. Thief is too, but Thief has, admittedly, much less character than Haley and is more focused on one or two traits of his. OotS just is a more realistic, I dare say comic with more fleshed out characters. I guess it's up to personal preference but he was just looking for something else than what Rich wanted to provide.

[Nimrod's Son]

Yeah, I also enjoy 8BT a LOT. I can see why people would not do so (though I'd like those to not insult the comic just because they don't like the humor)
I insult it not because I just don't like the humour, but because I don't like anything about it. :smallwink:

[Jackson]

I think it's going a little far to say that 'obsessed with money' is a trait that was originated with the character of Thief in 8-Bit Theater, which is the base claim you'd need to make if you want to claim that another character's acquisitiveness is borrowed from his. Neither Haley nor Thief are 'original' in this sense, they're just different takes on a pre-existing character type, something along the lines of a lovable rogue.

The main difference is that this trait is pretty much the only characterization for Thief, or at least it's the trait from which all other aspects of his personality are derived, whereas in Haley it's just another among many, and not what defines her as a character. If you prefer the way it's played with Thief, that's all well and good, but that doesn't make Haley the inferior copy. They're both copies.

[iBear]

I insult it not because I just don't like the humour, but because I don't like anything about it. :smallwink:

8-Bit Theater has some of the greatest lines in funny-book history, especially for people who like dark humor.

BM: "I'm a busy mage! I don't have time to stand around while you bungle about at your simpleton's monkey-task."

BM: "We have clearly reached the point where only rampant and unchecked stabbing can save us. And my first act as self-appointed stabmaster is to slay my comrades."

BM: "I would cry, but there aren't enough tears."

Sarda: "You know what the best part about magic is? ... Everything."

[Zevox]

8-Bit Theater has some of the greatest lines in funny-book history, especially for people who like dark humor.
BM: "You ever get the feeling that the universe is a vast, impersonal emptiness that exists only to hurt you?"
RM: "Yes. It's how we know the DM is doing his job."

RM: "I can't believe that Thief was the moral compass that kept us from becoming a pack of roving murderers."
BM: "Yeah, it's a crazy world. I mean think about it. We're the heroes."
RM: "Good lord, we're doomed."
BM: "No, no, no. Everyone else is doomed."

Also, there's the just plain (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2008/01/15/episode-942-cross-eyed-traffic/) completely (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2008/01/19/episode-944-trick-of-the-trade/) ridiculous (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2008/01/22/episode-945-better-off-not-knowing/) humor.

Zevox

[Nimrod's Son]

8-Bit Theater has some of the greatest lines in funny-book history, especially for people who like dark humor.
I love dark humour. I haven't seen very much of it, or any other type of humour, in close to four hundred strips so far. And I'd contend that if any of those lines you quoted represent what you think are "the greatest lines in funny-book history", then you should probably read a few more. :smalltongue:

But as I said, it wouldn't be a problem if it was just the poor quality of jokes (and again, "jokes" is often stretching it - Black Mage threatening to stab someone or saying something like "You're an idiot" seems to constitute about 60% of the punchlines) - seriously: the art is terrible and often barely legible, even for a sprite comic; it's absolutely riddled with spelling and grammar errors; the characters never evolve but keep repeating the variations of the same few tired lines; the pacing is interminable; most of the characters' personalities and phrasing are completely interchangable, save for a few personal "gimmicks" (Fighter likes swords, BM likes stabbing people, RM likes optimising, etc.), with the main character archetype being "dangerously, unrealistically stupid" (although that doesn't ever prevent them from being really quite smart whenever the plot calls for it, and vice versa); the author comes across as a smug, self-satisfied buffoon in his shameless self-insertions... I could rant for hours. It is a TERRIBLE webcomic, with no redeeming features whatsoever.

And I'm really trying with it here, too. Almost four hundred strips. I don't like giving up on something I've invested that much time in, but I'm not at all convinced I'm going to make it to the end of this one.

[Mutant Sheep]

I love dark humour. I haven't seen very much of it, or any other type of humour, in close to four hundred strips so far. And I'd contend that if any of those lines you quoted represent what you think are "the greatest lines in funny-book history", then you should probably read a few more. :smalltongue:

But as I said, it wouldn't be a problem if it was just the poor quality of jokes (and again, "jokes" is often stretching it - Black Mage threatening to stab someone or saying something like "You're an idiot" seems to constitute about 60% of the punchlines), seriously: the art is terrible and often barely legible, even for a sprite comic; it's absolutely riddled with spelling and grammar errors; the characters never evolve but keep repeating the variations of the same few tired lines; the pacing is interminable; most of the characters' personalities and phrasing are completely interchangable, save for a few personal "gimmicks" (Fighter likes swords, BM likes stabbing people, RM likes optimising, etc.), with the main character archetype being "dangerously, unrealistially stupid" (although that doesn't ever prevent them from being really quite smart whenever the plot calls for it, and vice versa); the author comes across as a smug, self-satisfied buffoon in his shameless self-insertions... I could rant for hours. It is a TERRIBLE webcomic, with no redeeming features whatsoever.

And I'm really trying with it here, too. Almost four hundred strips. I don't like giving up on something I've invested that much time in, but I'm not at all convinced I'm going to make it to the end of this one.
Never give up! Trust your instincts! (Unless your instincts say give up, then shove your instincts as far away as possible, preferable in front of a headcrab). I never read the whole thing.:smallredface: Read the beginning, decided to skip forward a few hundred comics, guessed what happened, and just read from there. Laziness is my only superstrength.:smallsigh:

[Nimrod's Son]

Never give up! Trust your instincts! (Unless your instincts say give up, then shove your instincts as far away as possible, preferable in front of a headcrab).
Well, it was my instincts that made me carry on reading OotS for more than the first few strips, 'cause I've never played D&D and I'm never likely to. But it had something, and within a couple of hundred strips I knew that that something was something very special indeed.

Whereas in double that time with 8-Bit, my current impression more or less matches my initial gut reaction, which is partially summed-up in that rant up there. :smallwink:

I dunno. I'll persevere masochistically for a bit longer I guess, but there'd better be some drastic improvement, sharp. :smallamused:

[Mutant Sheep]

Well, it was my instincts that made me carry on reading OotS for more than the first few strips, 'cause I've never played D&D and I'm never likely to. But it had something, and within a couple of hundred strips I knew that that something was something very special indeed.

Whereas in double that time with 8-Bit, my current impression more or less matches my initial gut reaction, which is partially summed-up in that rant up there. :smallwink:

I dunno. I'll persevere masochistically for a bit longer I guess, but there'd better be some drastic improvement, sharp. :smallamused:

Your supposed to get the Star Fox reference.:smallfrown: I really need to stop playing N64 games wishing for more remakes. But if you don't like the strips after 860, there's no hope for you. :smalltongue: Hey, the smile's order is all changed now! Laame.

[tassaron]

I've never liked 8-Bit Theater either. It's just the same 15 jokes over and over again, with none of them being particularly funny. Then the art is just copy-pasted garbage with six thousand Photoshop nonces thrown in. At least other sprite comics have the decency to actually look somewhat like screenshots from a video game. 8-Bit Theater looks and reads like it was created by a 10-year-old. A strangely determined 10-year-old who makes thousands of comics instead of giving up after ten like he should have. :/

So I guess it stands to reason that, even if Haley were somehow based on Thief, I'd consider her an enormous improvement...