Warforged in Pathfinder

[Anderlith]

Hey folks, I was wondering if anyone could point me towards official or unofficial stats for Pathfinder Warforged & the Artificer Class if it exists

[stack]

Don't know about warforged, but there is a 3rd part artificer here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/artificer). Not real keen on what I've seen of their other classes, so read carefully and ask your DM. An artificer port from 3.5 should be do-able, someone must have tried by now.

[Anderlith]

Okay if there are no stats for a Warforged then that means homebrew. What abilities seem appropriate? What should they gain & what should they give up?

[Psyren]

Okay if there are no stats for a Warforged then that means homebrew. What abilities seem appropriate? What should they gain & what should they give up?

PF races tend to be a net +2 stats. However, most or all of them are humanoid (including even Elans) rather than anything more exotic. So I recommend leaving Warforged as Living Constructs, and making their stat adjustments be net 0 instead of the -2 they have now - for example, +2 Con, -2 Cha. The suite of immunities they get, including to dangerous anti-humanoid spells/effects (well, dangerous at lower levels anyway) should redress the balance in their favor.

[Anderlith]

Well I was thinking of dropping there Fortification since it is based on Constructs being immune to crits (they no longer are) & giving them +2 to a mental stat (Int maybe?) I think that would balance them out a bit

[Psyren]

Thing is, I can't think of any mental stat that fits flavorwise. Mentally, they're like giant robotic children (that think of everything in terms of battle.) They aren't sure of themselves enough for Cha, introspective enough for Wis, nor studious enough for Int. Sure there are individual members of their race that are capable of all three of those things, but as a whole?

Maybe just no adjustments at all...

[Greenish]

Well I was thinking of dropping there Fortification since it is based on Constructs being immune to crits (they no longer are)Interestingly, warforged's fortification is a result of their armour plating, not of their construct nature (as evidenced by the fact that losing the plating also removes the fortification).

[Anderlith]

Yes, a golem without armor would be vulnerable indeed

[Psyren]

In 4e they lose poison immunity too.

Maybe you could take that away and give them +2 Con with no other adjustments. After all, if they can drink potions they should be poisonable.

[Anderlith]

How can wood & metal be poisoned? & they take half off all healing remember. They only heal because of the magic in the potion. If they took half damage from poison I could understand but to take full damage is ludicrous

[deuxhero]

And poison is mundane (hence why creation can make it)

[Psyren]

How can wood & metal be poisoned?

Metal can't, but the wood in their construction is explicitly alive.

I'm not saying it's the balancing factor I'd personally use, but it's an option. (I would personally dock Wis or Cha instead.)

[Anderlith]

So a cobra can kill an oak tree?

[Psyren]

So a cobra can kill an oak tree?

Snake venom is not the only poison that exists. (Truly, any substance can be poisonous to any organism, even water, provided it is concentrated highly enough in their system.)

But you seem to believe that plants can't be poisoned at all. Tell me then - are you familiar with the term herbicide?

[Ravens_cry]

Yes, but that seems to call more for speciality poisons that say "can harm warforged" than removing their immunity.

[Anderlith]

Raven's Cry has it, just make a few exceptions to the Warforged poison resists

[Anderlith]

Snake venom is not the only poison that exists. (Truly, any substance can be poisonous to any organism, even water, provided it is concentrated highly enough in their system.)

But you seem to believe that plants can't be poisoned at all. Tell me then - are you familiar with the term herbicide? Water is not an organism...:smallconfused:

[Togath]

Enough water can be a poison, if it is pure enough.
on topic; a pathfinder warforged would probably still possess partial crit immunity as it is--as least partially--based on the warforged armor, as has been said above, also if you want them to have the standard +2 racial stat boost, str may be a good choice.

[BobVosh]

Well I was thinking of dropping there Fortification since it is based on Constructs being immune to crits (they no longer are) & giving them +2 to a mental stat (Int maybe?) I think that would balance them out a bit

Wait I thought constructs aren't immune to sneak attack but aren't vulnerable to crits?

Nope, just checked. Well then. I really need to read Fax's change log I guess.

Drop fortification as it seems somewhat hard to get in PF, and let them choose a chassis without a feat. Seems reasonable to me. (Going from memory, and it has been a while since I have seen the books but I remember the chassis being nice but not really that great)

[Anderlith]

Ah sorry for misreading that. Yes you are right people can die from water poisoning. As Paricles said "the poison is in the dose". However I do not think that this should apply to wood, as it has a different genetic & organic structure & make up than flesh.


On the note of what stats to give Warforged, doesn't Str & Con seem a bit too powerful? Plus it leaves out room for Wizards & Rogues & other non-melee options

[Togath]

I had been thinking of a choice between str, dex, and wis for the warforged, but couldn't remember if there were any races like that in pathfinder, so I went with str. one option, using what has been mentioned above could be, +2 to either, str, dex, or wis, a +2 bonus to con regardless of the other bonus, -2 cha, a 1d6 natural slam attack, and one of the warforged body feats(adamant, ironwood, or mithril, or a homebrewed one)

[GoatBoy]

I found Warforged tricky because they are already quite powerful for a +0 LA race. I always found it odd that they are supposed to be large and powerful and yet have no strength bonus. But just about any race with bonuses to strength and stamina would be like a holy grail for melee types... thought Neanderthals from Frostburn have just that and aren't too bad.

I thought that +Int might be fitting, indicating that they have better recall due to the way they store information, similar to a computer. But the only real purpose for that would be to keep them consistent with PF's bonus to mental and physical stats for all races.

You'd have to decide whether game balance is more important that the overall concept of a race. I'd just give them +2 strength and be done with it.

Here (http://www.pathfinderdb.com/character-options/classes/147-artificer) is a PF adjustment for the artificer. The 3rd-party artificer for Pathfinder is supposed to be sub-par, though there are unofficial fixes for it floating around too.

[Ravens_cry]

Considering how above par a 3.5 Artificer is, a toning down might not be a bad idea.

[Psyren]

Yes, but that seems to call more for speciality poisons that say "can harm warforged" than removing their immunity.

But if anything can poison them at all, they can't be immune to poison then, can they?

Again - not saying this is the route I would take with them - but I can understand it being on the table.


Ah sorry for misreading that. Yes you are right people can die from water poisoning. As Paricles said "the poison is in the dose". However I do not think that this should apply to wood, as it has a different genetic & organic structure & make up than flesh.

We're talking living wood though - they're not made of bark.
There's not that much difference between plants and animals on a cellular level; Yeah the plants have a cell wall and chloroplasts, but the important thing is that stuff from outside the cell can still get in if the concentration gradient is high enough.


I thought that +Int might be fitting, indicating that they have better recall due to the way they store information, similar to a computer.

That... is pretty damn good fluff, and you may have convinced me that +Int is a good mental stat.

But I still think, if you leave them as constructs, that they should have net 0 to compensate instead of net +2 like the humanoid races. Otherwise you'll have to change them to "Humanoid (living construct)" to keep them in line with PF Elans and Half-Giants.

+Con is the most flavorful buff to give them; the regular construct type buff is too powerful (+20 hp due to being medium constructs, now that's a meaty wizard) but a Con buff can represent that sturdiness in a more balanced way.

[Ravens_cry]

But if anything can poison them at all, they can't be immune to poison then, can they?

"Specific beats general." A lot of D&D works like this.
Unless the poison says otherwise, the warforged are immune to it.
Done and done.

[Psyren]

"Specific beats general." A lot of D&D works like this.
Unless the poison says otherwise, the warforged are immune to it.
Done and done.

Sigh. Of course Warforged are immune to poison now. We're talking about adjusting them for Pathfinder, aren't we?

[Ravens_cry]

Sigh. Of course Warforged are immune to poison now. We're talking about adjusting them for Pathfinder, aren't we?
And the best way, in my opinion, to adjust them, if you feel been immune to poison doesn't make sense, is to have some poisons, probably new ones, work on Warforged rather than removing their blanket immunity outright.

[Psyren]

And the best way, in my opinion, to adjust them, if you feel been immune to poison doesn't make sense, is to have some poisons, probably new ones, work on Warforged rather than removing their blanket immunity outright.

That's not much of a racial balance, given that you'd then as a DM need to justify any monster suddenly secreting anti-warforged goop or any antagonist keeping stocks of it handy. It would be pretty contrived, like trying to balance Elans by leaving their type unchanged from 3.5 but then creating a bunch of "Charm Aberration" etc. spells.

Anyway, I already said I wouldn't personally go this route so I won't waste more energy defending it.

I would probably give them +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Cha, -2 Wis, using Goatboy's fluff. Net 0, fits with their psychology and they're prevented from being the best wizards EVAR by requiring a feat tax to remove their ASF.

Unfortunately, they'd still be no-brainers as psions though (interesting turn of phrase) which I'm not sure is fair.

[Ravens_cry]

Balance be damned, having them be as vulnerable as meatbags to all poisons makes absolutely zip sense to me because they are not made of meat. I am willing to grant that something specific that works like a poison could arguably work on them (many herbicides aren't exactly human friendly either), but all? No.

[Psyren]

Balance be damned

This is an odd approach to take to racial bonus design. :smalltongue:

You could tweak their disease immunity instead if that is more palatable; even trees get sick. But again, the idea is that there can be other components of their package to adjust besides the stats, because being 0 LA constructs is itself already a strong advantage even before you get to stat adjustments.

[panaikhan]

I hate what 4e did to Warforged. It states a lot of things that they don't need (food, water, air) and then state that it doesn't make them immune to anything.
So even if they don't need air, they are not immune to suffocation or drowning?

Anyway - fortification does exist (the Alchemist can get it, in the ultimate magic book, by pickling his own organs) but it maxes out at 75%.
I agree with previous posts in saying let them keep their immunities, just remove their stat adjustment (+0 overall)

[Anderlith]

I think they could go with +2 Con +2 Int -2 Cha. They are build to absorb knowledge quickly & to learn at a very accelerated rate. This explains why they can adventure when 1 year old. Also I support them getting a chassis right off the bat, but maybe not the adamantine & mithral, maybe step it down just a bit & let them find chassis components later in game.

[Prime32]

I had something here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11958.msg407107#msg407107).

If you're not using the racial stats, you could still use the favoured classes.

[Xtomjames]

Um...just use the Warforge as defined in Eberron. It's perfectly compatible. Not to mention that Warforge characters already by 3.5 rules are: affected by mind affecting spells, have con scores, aren't immune to critical hits, can be affected by spells that effect both living and non-living things. See page 23 of Eberron Campaign Setting.

I see no incompatibilities with Pathfinder as it is. No need to change it.

[Psyren]

I see no incompatibilities with Pathfinder as it is. No need to change it.

It's compatible, just in need of a buff. The 3.5 Warforged has strong racials, which are balanced by giving it a net -2 stats (similar to the Elan.) This is consistent with 3.5's "net zero" stat adjustment race design.

In Pathfinder, however, races are net +2 (even humans.) So porting the Warforged as-is makes them -4 relative to the others, and their racials don't seem to warrant such a steep adjustment.

[Midnight_v]

Perhaps keeping them how they are is best.

Maybe just give them a +2 Con, -2 cha.

Or just a +2 con. Period.

[Cieyrin]

On the poison bit, it should be pointed out that plants do die if overwatered, just like anything else. Not usually a problem for trees, as they usually get washed away before they overabsorb but it should be said.

As for the poison immunity and warforged-specific poison bit, that's the tack that positoxins and ravages take against undead and evil outsiders, who're also normally immune (the baatzu, anyways). I see no problem with having anti-warforged poisons that inexplicably affect them, just that they be rare. Perhaps an internal rusting agent...

Also, a lot of what I've seen in the thread is kinda making warforged out as mecha-dwarves. Not saying they weren't rather similar before, just that it's there.

Finally, balancing warforged against being uber-wizards with their favorable stat mix via the default ASF of 5% is laughable. 5% is a nat 1 on an attack roll and that's not a point that comes up as a balancing point for weapon focused classes, so why should it here? Having to roll against not isn't that big a deal.

[Xtomjames]

It's compatible, just in need of a buff. The 3.5 Warforged has strong racials, which are balanced by giving it a net -2 stats (similar to the Elan.) This is consistent with 3.5's "net zero" stat adjustment race design.

In Pathfinder, however, races are net +2 (even humans.) So porting the Warforged as-is makes them -4 relative to the others, and their racials don't seem to warrant such a steep adjustment.

True, but trying to make an entire homebrew stat structure for it is a pain and many people on here have confused what a Warforge is versus a normal construct hence my post.

If you want to balance it out drop the bonuses and negatives altogether that apply to the ability score and apply the human stats block bonuses instead found in pathfinder (+2 to any one ability score + 1 extra feat at first level). That's my suggestion. (There is no reason why a Warforged can't be freaking brilliant at talking to people or have extra programming to make it more worldly. So using the human pathfinder stats bonus makes sense here). There is otherwise no need for any changes to the Warforged racial class.

[the Blue Morpho]

I like the idea of simply porting the 3.5 Warforged design and tweaking the stat adjusts to make them in keeping with the pathfinder races.

I'm surprised though that no one has mentioned simply giving them a floating +2-- given that each member of the race varies based on their constuction. SOme WFs are built with extra wood fibers and so are stronger, some are built with thicker plating or more efficient lubricant tubing so have a higher constitution, and some were infused with a higher degree of intellectual/charismatic arcane energies or the wisdom of divine energy during their creation.

It comes prebalanced and flavor approved!

[Psyren]

True, but trying to make an entire homebrew stat structure for it is a pain and many people on here have confused what a Warforge is versus a normal construct hence my post.

If you want to balance it out drop the bonuses and negatives altogether that apply to the ability score and apply the human stats block bonuses instead found in pathfinder (+2 to any one ability score + 1 extra feat at first level). That's my suggestion. (There is no reason why a Warforged can't be freaking brilliant at talking to people or have extra programming to make it more worldly. So using the human pathfinder stats bonus makes sense here). There is otherwise no need for any changes to the Warforged racial class.

That's a bit much, especially considering that Humans aren't immune to poison, disease and negative levels, nor do they start the game with a natural attack, and aren't immune to "person" spells. I think no feat, +2 Con -2 Cha and their standard suite of immunities is good enough.

[panaikhan]

About the Artificer.
There is an Artificer class in a 3rd-party PF book, but it is radically different to the 3.5 version.
I prefer the 3.5 version to be honest, but the other one does have some nice features.

[That_guy_there]

Just a quick thing, for the Warforged, you could apply the half construct racial subtype to it, netting it a few perks (not needing to sleep/eat/ect, +2 saves to poisons, mind-affecting effects, disease, ect) from the Advanced Races Guide. You could use the resources in that book to rebuild the warforged if you want to build it from scratch to fit Pathfinder.

As for the Articficer, I rarely touch converted classes so... good luck?

[Larpus]

Not sure how helpful or balanced it is, but I remember seeing a conversion of the Warforged for PF...and it's here (http://pf-eberron.wikidot.com/races:warforged)

I'll go give it a read now, didn't really give it much mind when I last saw it.

[The Redwolf]

I had to do this recently myself for a campaign we have coming up and it basically ended up as a combination of a couple suggestions earlier up, allowing you to chose a body type to start with, dropping the wisdom penalty and leaving the other two ability mods, and that was pretty much it. It worked for us, may not work for you. It seemed to us that it's fairly reasonable they would be more durable than a normal person thanks to being a robot man so the con boost would be good, they obviously would be off-putting to many people so charisma penalty fits, and they didn't choose to be created in a specific way, they were made that way so why should they need to waste a feat?

[Psyren]

^

Yeah, I like that method. Free body feat is nice and flavorful, and net zero stats is worthwhile when combined with all the immunities.

If you decide you want garden-variety composite plating though, you should get something else in exchange. All I can think of is a bonus feat but that feels unimaginative.