Virtuoso. Virtually Useless.

[Bard for Kicks]

Can somebody tell me how and why taking the virtuoso prestige class would be better than going straight bard or taking a different prestige class? Virtuoso seems like the worst prestige class...like...ever.:smallmad:

[Amnestic]

Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8

Virtuoso advances Sublime Chord casting, offers better stuff than straight Sublime Chord.

[Amphetryon]

Sorcerer 8/Paladin of Freedom 2/Virtuoso 10, as an off-the-cuff example, is considerably better at spellcasting than a straight bard, and better secondary abilities, too.

Virtuoso also pairs well with War Weaver, if memory serves.

You don't (necessarily) enter Virtuoso as a Bard. . . .

[NNescio]

Sorcerer 8/Paladin of Freedom 2/Virtuoso 10, as an off-the-cuff example, is considerably better at spellcasting than a straight bard, and better secondary abilities, too.

Virtuoso also pairs well with War Weaver, if memory serves.

You don't (necessarily) enter Virtuoso as a Bard. . . .

Wait... how do you get Perform as a class skill without using the BoEF?

(AKA the Pervirtuoso)

[Bard for Kicks]

How so? Sublime Chord seems alot more useful than Virtuoso. The songs that sublime chords get seem powerful...Virtuosos get more songs and that's totally cool but...the songs just don't seem as useful or strong...

[Keld Denar]

The only song that Sublime Chords get that is decent is Song of Arcane Powah. Which is at 2nd level. Other than that, its a bunch of dead levels and two rather crappy songs. Song of Timelessness is next to worthless, and Song of Arcane Fire...well, at 20th level, you should be getting something MUCH cooler than that.

Virtuoso has more skill points, better skill list, a larger HD, and a couple of the songs are decent (namedly Jarring Song? and Song of Revelation). I think it might even have a slightly better save progression, since I know that Sublime Chord only has a strong Will save. It also has better progression of music/days, which is actually useful if you are burning songs for Lyric Spell and/or Song of Arcane Power.

By building Bard8/Virt2/SC2/Virt+8, you are getting the best features of Sublime Chord (Song of Arcane Power + Casting), and losing virtually northing. Yea, Virtuoso isn't THAT good, but its better than the nothing you get from advancing SC with SC levels.

[Bard for Kicks]

Jarring Song is very. very. very. very. very useless. very.

Jarring Song (Su): A 4th-level virtuoso with at least 14
ranks in Perform can inhibit spellcasting.
Anyone attempting to cast a spell during
a jarring song must make a Concentration
check (DC 15 + the spell level).
Success allows normal completion of the
spell; failure means it is lost. A jarring song
requires three daily uses of virtuoso performance
and is a supernatural, sonic ability.

Any caster worth fighting could make a concentration check way above what the DC would be.

Also, sustaining song and calumny (and its greater version) make me weep. They are just that useless.

Also, same # of skills per level, same HD progression, same saves.

[Amphetryon]

Wait... how do you get Perform as a class skill without using the BoEF?

(AKA the Pervirtuoso) Some methods include:

Apprentice (entertainer) - DMG II (also diplomacy)
Draconic heritage (Type) – Races of the dragon (sorcerer only)
From Smite to Song - CoV
Harmonious Knight substitution level - CoV web enhancement.

[Keld Denar]

Jarring Song is very. very. very. very. very useless. very.

Maybe I'm remembering a feat or something that had a similar effect, but was essentially a concentration check vs your perform check. Anyway, yea, thats bad.

Just ignore the songs though, and compare the chassis. Virtuoso has better skills, HD, and, IIRC, saves, than Sublime Chord, while progressing casting. As long as you take at least the 1 dead level prior to starting SC, you'll end up with 10/10 SC casting and 4-5 extra BM uses (the same as the Extra Music feat).

EDIT:

Some methods include:

Also, Initiate of Milil from Champions of Valor, IIRC.

[Bard for Kicks]

...meh HD is the same. same with # o' skills per level

Also, song of timelessness and song of cosmic power seem rockin'
The saves for Song of Timelessness and Cosmic Powrr are 10+SC+(Cha Mod) Just by including the Cha mod, the song actually becomes slightly more useful

[Kantolin]

Wait, why is jarring song bad? O_o

Most casters I'm aware of don't bother to hyper pump their concentration nearly as hardcore as most bards pump their perform, especially with things like improvisation existing.

[Zherog]

Wait, why is jarring song bad? O_o

Most casters I'm aware of don't bother to hyper pump their concentration nearly as hardcore as most bards pump their perform, especially with things like improvisation existing.

Because the DC of Jarring Song has nothing to do with Perform. It's 15 plus spell level.

[NNescio]

Jarring Song is very. very. very. very. very useless. very.

Jarring Song (Su): A 4th-level virtuoso with at least 14
ranks in Perform can inhibit spellcasting.
Anyone attempting to cast a spell during
a jarring song must make a Concentration
check (DC 15 + the spell level).
Success allows normal completion of the
spell; failure means it is lost. A jarring song
requires three daily uses of virtuoso performance
and is a supernatural, sonic ability.

Any caster worth fighting could make a concentration check way above what the DC would be.

Also, sustaining song and calumny (and its greater version) make me weep. They are just that useless.

Also, same # of skills per level, same HD progression, same saves.

That's the Song and Silence version of the Virtuoso, a 3.0 supplement. The Virtuoso has been updated in Complete Adventurer:


Jarring Song (Su): A virtuoso of 5th level or higher with
at least 15 ranks in a Perform skill can inhibit spellcasting.
Any enemy within 30 feet attempting to cast a spell
during a jarring song must make a Concentration check
with a DC equal to the virtuoso’s Perform check to avoid
losing the spell. A virtuoso can keep up his jarring song
for 10 rounds.

It also requires two uses of Bardic Music instead of three.

Generally, most Virtuoso performances have been improved, 'though some of them come with slightly increased Perform requirements. The Virtuoso also gets less performances (No Calumny,, for example), but that should be mostly a nonissue.

The Virtuoso also gets 6+ Int Mod skill points per level instead of 4 + Int Mod.

[tyckspoon]

How so? Sublime Chord seems alot more useful than Virtuoso. The songs that sublime chords get seem powerful...Virtuosos get more songs and that's totally cool but...the songs just don't seem as useful or strong...

Song of Timelessness is ok, but basically what it does is take a guy out of a fight (with a moderate use of 'crap, my spells will keep me safe from what's about to happen but you don't have any way to survive it. Song of Timelessness!' Hard to use that way unless your DM likes to telegraph attacks, tho.) You're a full caster. You can and probably do have about five ways to take a guy out of a fight, and most or all of them don't lock down your options after you've used them the way Song of Timelessness does- if you want to keep that guy out with the song, you have to keep performing it, so no other songs, a feat tax if you want to cast during the performance, and so on.

Cosmic Fire is.. well, I'm not gonna say it's bad. It's just very late and underwhelming as the capping piece of a prestige class, and especially one that you won't hit until level 20; if you just wanna blast things, compare it to taking Meteor Swarm as a spell known. 32d6 to a single target, 24d6 area burst- average of 112 and 84 damage. Does your Perform check beat that? (Also, Stormsinger, a normal 5th-level entry prestige class, lets you do Perform to a single target at total level 8 and area at level 11.)

[dextercorvia]

It is basically the only class that is going to progress Sublime Chord casting and Bardic Music (fully instead of halvsies like SC)

[Bard for Kicks]

The Virtuoso has been updated in Complete Adventurer


Thank goodness. I thought I would have to play a substitute heal bot AGAIN if my performances turned out to be useless...

Jarring song might actually be useful now! :)

[Optimator]

One thing I'm particularly fond of is the fact that Virtuosos get 6 skill points per level.

[Bard for Kicks]

One thing I'm particularly fond of is the fact that Virtuosos get 6 skill points per level.

I rarely find skills useful...

1. Diplomacy. Awesome
2. Bluff. Awesome
3. Perform. Required.

What else is there left to put ranks into?

[Keld Denar]

Knowledge skills, especially if you are multiclassing into PrCs that don't get Bardic Knowledge (Virtuoso doesn't, Lyric Thamateurge doesn't, Mindbender doesn't. Only Sublime Chord, Paragnostic Disciple, and Loremaster do). Tumble for moving away from foes so you can cast in peace. Listen/Spot so you don't get ambushed. Balance (5 ranks max) so you aren't flat footed when you are balancing. USE MAGIC FREAKIN DEVICE!!!! All kinds of useful crap!

[Psyren]

I rarely find skills useful...

1. Diplomacy. Awesome
2. Bluff. Awesome
3. Perform. Required.

What else is there left to put ranks into?

Concentration (unless you have that one feat from... Dragon I think?), Tumble, Spellcraft. Virtuosos don't get Know (Arcana) for some reason, but you'll still want it.

[The Glyphstone]

Craft(Underwater Basketweaving), if your table is very cheese-friendly.:smallbiggrin:

[Amnestic]

Concentration (unless you have that one feat from... Dragon I think?), Tumble, Spellcraft. Virtuosos don't get Know (Arcana) for some reason, but you'll still want it.

Melodic Casting (Either CArc or CAdv, I believe) lets you swap Concentration for Perform.

[Psyren]

Melodic Casting (Either CArc or CAdv, I believe) lets you swap Concentration for Perform.

Yeah, I was thinking of the Dragon version (Focused Performance or something like that.) Melodic Casting works too (CMage actually.)

[dextercorvia]

Craft(Underwater Basketweaving), if your table is very cheese-friendly.:smallbiggrin:

Okay, I keep seeing references like this. Is this just sarcasm, or did I miss a meme?

[Psyren]

Okay, I keep seeing references like this. Is this just sarcasm, or did I miss a meme?

This might help (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870302/The_Basket_Weavers_Handbook)

[Amnestic]

Yeah, I was thinking of the Dragon version (Focused Performance or something like that.) Melodic Casting works too (CMage actually.)

Wow, really? Could've sworn it was CAdv...bah, they all blur together after a while, I swear. Especially for Bard feats.

[Keld Denar]

Complete Arcane has Lyric Spell, which allows you to burn BM uses to cast spells, and also Lingering Spell. Its nice, but not nearly as nice as Melodic Casting.

[Socratov]

I agree with dextercorvia...


This might help (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870302/The_Basket_Weavers_Handbook)

a bit, but still missing the epicness of basketweaving... :smallconfused:

[dextercorvia]

I agree with dextercorvia...



a bit, but still missing the epicness of basketweaving... :smallconfused:

I get that its a joke, but it seems unfocused. At times it seems to be trying to truly optimize something silly. At others it recommends commoner.

[Eldariel]

Virtuoso also advances Inspire Courage. Sublime Chord doesn't. Thus, the combination gets you almost full IC while also maintaining SC casting. And yeah, 3.5 Virtuoso gets more worthwhile songs than the 3.0 version.

My personal favorite Bard is:
Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8

You get a bunch of good songs:
- Fascinate/Suggestion
- Inspire Courage
- Inspire Greatness
- Song of Arcane Power
- Jarring Song

You can also pick up Healing Hymn for free since Virtuoso gives you Fascinate anyways. There's also some other Virtuoso performances that are somewhat useful and you'll of course replace Inspire Competence with something more competent.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I get that its a joke, but it seems unfocused. At times it seems to be trying to truly optimize something silly. At others it recommends commoner.

Have you ever seen the commoner 3/marshall 1 that can train three 36 HD battletitans?

[dextercorvia]

Have you ever seen the commoner 3/marshall 1 that can train three 36 HD battletitans?

No, but I'm guessing that commoner could be replaced by any class with Handle Animal as a class skill?

I'm not against TO of silliness, but some of the options presented are good suggestions, and others are more silliness. That is why I said unfocused. I found parts of the joke to be funny, and then I was perplexed at the direction that the next line was taking.

[The Glyphstone]

No, but I'm guessing that commoner could be replaced by any class with Handle Animal as a class skill?

I'm not against TO of silliness, but some of the options presented are good suggestions, and others are more silliness. That is why I said unfocused. I found parts of the joke to be funny, and then I was perplexed at the direction that the next line was taking.

I think it had multiple authors.

[Talya]

Main reason to stick with Sublime Chord instead of using Viruoso is it continues Bardic Knowledge progression. Since I would always always always swap out Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack, Sublime Chord should continue Bardic Knack progression, too.

[OracleofWuffing]

a bit, but still missing the epicness of basketweaving... :smallconfused:
If you want to really drag the joke out, Masters of the Wild and Monster Manual "What Were They Thinking?" II has Boguns, which requires a spell to create. Said spell requires a component you need to make a basketweaving check for. :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

I think it had multiple authors.


No, but I'm guessing that commoner could be replaced by any class with Handle Animal as a class skill?

Pretty Sure it was just Son of Zeal that came up with Bubs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38).

And, yes, this is something that a druid could do just as easily and be more formidable & able to mind-slave animals by Wild Empathying them.

[Psyren]

Pretty Sure it was just Son of Zeal that came up with Bubs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38).

He meant the basketweaving thing had multiple authors, not the battletitan-training-Marshal thing.

[Amnestic]

Main reason to stick with Sublime Chord instead of using Viruoso is it continues Bardic Knowledge progression. Since I would always always always swap out Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack, Sublime Chord should continue Bardic Knack progression, too.

'Should' sadly being the operative word. While it would be nice if that were true, Bardic Knack is only tied to Bard levels by raw. There's no PrC exception clause.

[Talya]

'Should' sadly being the operative word. While it would be nice if that were true, Bardic Knack is only tied to Bard levels by raw. There's no PrC exception clause.

If it's an alternate class feature for Bardic Knowledge, it's alternate on every class with bardic knowledge. Bardic Knowledge itself says that it relies on bard levels alone, yet Sublime Chord gets bardic knowledge, and explicitly stacks with bard. Bardic Knowledge = Bardic Knack. Therefore, Sublime chord itself tells you it stacks with Bardic Knack.

[Bard for Kicks]

But the question is...

Is it worth it to continue the SC progression just for the bardic knowledge/knack?...

[Optimator]

But the question is...

Is it worth it to continue the SC progression just for the bardic knowledge/knack?...

Hell no. My DM is fairly generous (as am I) with knowledge checks and Bardic Lore, and I would still never take SC over V for Lore. Better songs, better skills. For a more normal Bard, maybe Knack is great but with a caster Bard you may as well use the extra skills from V to actually learn the skills you want and will use.

[Talya]

Hell no. My DM is fairly generous (as am I) with knowledge checks and Bardic Lore, and I would still never take SC over V for Lore. Better songs, better skills. For a more normal Bard, maybe Knack is great but with a caster Bard you may as well use the extra skills from V to actually learn the skills you want and will use.

So, you'd rather have a couple songs you'll likely never use, instead of 10 ranks in everything?


Bardic Knack + Jack of All Trades is a really worthwhile combo.

[Socratov]

If you want to really drag the joke out, Masters of the Wild and Monster Manual "What Were They Thinking?" II has Boguns, which requires a spell to create. Said spell requires a component you need to make a basketweaving check for. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks, it kinda makes sense now :smallsmile:

@Talya

You'd rather have a few more skills you could use a bit instead of advancing your bread and butter: Inspire courage and get a few situational great songs (IMHO as situational as those few skills you otherwise wouldn't have), which even (at least a part of them) benefit from feats you will take either way?

and while we are discussing the virtuoso songs, it frees up skillpoints by not needing diplomacy anymore, there is a bardic music feat that grants you the option to use a perform check instead of a concentration check, so that is 2 skills you won't need by using the correct feats. I tend to take able learner with my human characters (at least, those with some intelligence and skillpoints), just to pick my own class skills. You will have a 11+int.mod+misc. on bardic knowledge, so knowledge skills would be only neccessary when you really need all the detail you can get, for the rest bardic knowledge :smallsmile: (bardic knowledge is almost like a mastercard :smallbiggrin: )

those and some of the skill you won't really need anyway (profession, craft, forgery, heal, knowledges(bardic knowlegde is enough): architecture, geography, history(no more then 5 ranks), local, nobilty) you will save yourself 11 skills with just the right feats and songs. On top of that you will gain a few pretty neat songs (with effects not really emulated otherwise), for those occasions you need something special, you will have 9th level spells, and a buff for those sword swinging fleshmaulers, clerics can only dream of. You will be a veritable jack of all trades, master at a few (yeah, you won't be able to do everything moderatle anymore, some things you will be absolutely rubbish at, but hey, should have taken factotum then, while some fiels you will excell, or at least compete on a reasonable level with).

[Talya]

thing is, if you're going sublime chord, your combat bread-and-butter is not inspire courage anyway, but regardless, Chaos Music and the Vest of Legend will add 9 levels to your bardic music effects. You don't need virtuoso for that.

[Keld Denar]

When you can throw around 8th and 9th level spells, even 12d6 Dragonfire Inspiration becomes rather lackluster in most situations, if you have to spend an action in combat to put it up (assuming you weren't just continuing on a performance from earlier).

[Coidzor]

...How long can one continue an Inspire Courage anyway?

[Talya]

Sublime Chords don't have the wealth of spell-slots their sorcerous cousins do. In a melee-heavy party, giving your entire party a huge pile of bonus damage in melee and archery might be just as advantageous and save you some of those spell slots.

MY point is, you don't need virtuoso to get it. One feat and one peice of gear will cap Inspire Courage for a bard 10/sublime chord 10.

[Keld Denar]

...How long can one continue an Inspire Courage anyway?

How long can you stay awake without sleeping, being silenced, stunned, dazed, paniced, or paralyzed? Cause if you aren't affected by one of those that would force you to stop singing, you could, by the rules, maintain a single bard song forever. Viva la Warforged!

[Coidzor]

How long can you stay awake without sleeping, being silenced, stunned, dazed, paniced, or paralyzed? Cause if you aren't affected by one of those that would force you to stop singing, you could, by the rules, maintain a single bard song forever. Viva la Warforged!

Viva La Warforged Warchanter, even.

[Socratov]

to be honest (but that might just be me) I find untyped bonus damage (like powerattack bonuses) better then elemental typed bonus damage. Especially at high level you will encounter a lot of enemies who can resist a specific element (and many times are immune against it, with fire beïng the most common), thougj that bit of DR (dr10/- was near epic IIRC), that bit of DR isn't ging to matter such a big deal, the all so common on high level fire immunity/absurd resistance, even boostable by most caster to catastrophic heights, will matter a great deal. (though the heritage feat/half dragon template fixes this, just hope the enemy isn't immune against your dragon-type). I dont know if DFI crits along with weapon damage, but I know PA does. with 4 attack attempts per round, 2 people going at it, you are gonna hit that crit probably more than once, and that is gonna be something nice alltogether (disclaimer: calculations and reasoning are based of the owrst of lies: statistics. Probably your dice will hate you and not crit when you need that. Life is cruel that way, Disclaimer's disclaimer: the disclaimer is again based on statistics. You will recognise a pattern here, like when you recognise your hating not-critting dice which actually do hate you with a passion you can't fathom))

[Keld Denar]

DFI, as bonus damage dice, does not multiply on a crit, no.

DFI is better for allies with large numbers of attacks. As long as you don't encounter immunities, a large number of attacks, especially attacks that don't qualify for 2:1 PA such as Flurry of Blows, Rapid Shot, and most TWFing combinations, DFI will pull out further ahead. For characters with lots of ranged touch attacks (like ray casters) and 2handed PAers, regular IC is only about .5 damage per plus average behind DFI, and is better for the reasons you mentioned.

It all depends on what is in your party. If your group members include a TWFing Rogue, a Monk, and a Fighter Archer, DFI is the way to go. If you have a Wizard, a 2handed Fighter, and a lockdown Crusader with a Spiked Chain, regular IC will benefit much much more in most cases.

[Talya]

Of course, you can benefit from Inspire Courage, Dragonfire Inspiration, and Power Attack all on the same attacks. (One would need lingering song to make that reliable, though.)

[Socratov]

so yeah, in 4 turns you can have +16 IC, +16d6 DFI, get your draconic heritage from a chaosdragon (why pick 1 element) and you have an ever changing DFI element :smallamused:

[Greenish]

If you want to really drag the joke out, Masters of the Wild and Monster Manual "What Were They Thinking?" II has Boguns, which requires a spell to create. Said spell requires a component you need to make a basketweaving check for. :smallbiggrin:Beget Bogun made it's way to the Spell Compendium, for a 3.5 source.