[PF] Ultimate Combat released to subscribers

[Rixx]

The Dimensional Agility feat tree allows monks to use their Abundant Step ability to charge, and later do a full attack action.

Monks can move and full attack.

[FMArthur]

The Dimensional Agility feat tree allows monks to use their Abundant Step ability to charge, and later do a full attack action.

Monks can move and full attack.

How late? No wait, let me guess: 20th level.

[Ravens_cry]

Barbarians of a certain kind can get Pounce at 11th level in Pure Pathfinder, so probably high level, yes.

[Anderlith]

Can anyone tell me anything about guns, gunfighters, & Spellslingers? Oh & airships...:smallfrown:

[Starbuck_II]

Can anyone tell me anything about guns, gunfighters, & Spellslingers? Oh & airships...:smallfrown:

From what I am read at the Pathfinder website (from subscribers):
Ammo still cost outageous sums, but the gunslinger can craft for 1/10th the cost ammo.
So if you have time, you'll just make it (do so before play at 1st since ammo too expensive to buy).
Due to this you can't sell ammo, since all gun users make their own (I guess).

Here is link:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/paizo/ultimateCombatPDFJustReleased

Cavalier has a gun archetype:
Musketeer: Gets a gun. No mount. Gets Rapid Reload free, and can eventually reload firearms as a free action when challenging.

In other news:
Gunslinger:
-Mysterious Stranger:
A mysterious stranger she uses Charisma (instead of wisdom for Grit)
Clipping Shot (Ex): At 11th level, when misses with a firearm attack, she can spend 1 grit point to deal half the damage that attack would have dealt if it were a hit (roll damage normally).

-Musket master Archetype: really good with Muskets, example
At 3rd level, as long as the musket master has 1 grit point, she can reload any two-handed firearm as if it were a one-handed firearm. This deed replaces the utility shot deed."

-Gun Tank archetype: Normal Fighter Proficiencies (all simple/martial weapon/armor/Tower Shield)

Rogue:
-Rogue Talent that allows a Rogue to gain a Ki Pool based off of wisdom
-This lets them take Ninja talents that cost Ki.
-All Ninja tricks lost free useage/day
-HiPS is an advanced rogue talent
-Knife Master Archetype: Deals D8 sneak attack with thrown weapons (instead of D6)

Barbarian
-Frenzied Berserker is back (Wild Rager archetype), when you kill someone you need to make a save or be confused (as the spell), and you can't quit raging when you're confused by this. Also, you attack the nearest dude. Can take an extra attack at highest bonus (stacks with haste!), but takes -2 to hit and -4 to AC until next turn. Can reroll saving throws of mind-affecting spells next turn and go into rage. The DC for not being confused is 10+barbarians level + Cha mod.
Rounds under confusion don't count for Rounds you can rage (you can choose not to end the confusion technically)
-Titan Mauler: Becomes good at using weapons larger than herself, but only gains Power Attack as if using a one-handed weapon. Eventually can treat herself as using Enlarge Person while raging.


Cleric:
-Feat that lets Cleric use Wisdom for diety's weapon

Bard:
-Arcane Bomber: gives alchemist bombs.
-Archaelogist: Trades bardic performances for a lot of rogue abilities: Trap sense, uncanny dodge, up to 5 rogue talents. Can take 10 on disable device. Also they can get lucky a few times per day
-Devish Dancer Bard: Bardic stuff only buffs self (drawback?), but you gain opportunity at late levels to use a full attack with a move action.
Gain movement bonus, use Perform(dance) to great effect (can use it in place of Acrobatics), and get a combination of Spring Attack and Pounce. Eventually, they can do something that's a combination of Spring and Charge (not sure why that's better than pounce).

Wizard:
-Spellslinger archetype: shoot spells through guns. Can expend spells to get bonuses. Gunsmith for free. Also, spells cast through the gun get the gun's enhancement bonus to-hit and DCs (but Nat 1 attack's break gun and if enemy makes a Nat 20 save breaks gun).

Inquisitor:
-Iconoclast archetype: Dispel someone once per day as an attack, and can cause magic items to not work on enemies for a few rounds when they critical. Also, destroying artifacts.
-Spellbreaker: Gets favored enemies, but for wizard schools. And instead of offensive bonuses, defensive. Making sure arcane casters don't cast.

Anti-Pallys
-Have own Archetype (turn undead)

Vehicle section has 2 mechs:
1) AC of 6, hardness 10, and 320 HP. Costs 100gp per hour to run. Has "2 Large direct-fire ranged siege engines on the arms", and an upper deck where people can presumably shoot / cast from?
2) Alchemical dragon is the thing you need to watch out for. Flying, 900 HP, AC 130, can have 6 Large siege weapons split evenly on the sides, or 4 Huge split evenly on the sides. They can only fire side-ways. They can't fire forward or backwards.

Magus
-Myrmidarch (spell wrong) archetype gives Ranged Spellstrike

Fighter:
-Unarmed Fighter: Gains a Style feats and improved unarmed strike in exchange for 1st level bonus feat. And loses Heavy/med Armor.
Loses Bravert for harsh training, = scaling saving throw bonus against fatigue, exhaustion, staggered, and temporary ability score penalties
armor training 1 given up for DR/- equal to half their fighter level that only applies to nonlethal damage or damage they take while grappling
-Unbreakable: They gain Die Hard, heroic defiance, and heroic recovery, he gains Stalwart (evasion, but for Will / Fort), etc. Gives up weapon training.
Also bravery replaced with a save bonus to all mind-affecting, and eventually becomes immune to mind-affecting effects


The Style Feats are like Asian combat style you saw in Karate Kid. Crane style, Tiger Style, etc. They require BAB requirement or Monk level (equal to BAB requirement). Very nice, but they act like 3.5 Stances: one at a time active.

Monk
-Martial Artist replaces most monk abilities, but they can be of any alignment. No ki pool.
Con: No slow fall, still mind, purity of body, diamond body, perfect self, wholeness of body, timeless body, tongue of sun and moon, diamond soul, or empty body
Pro: pain points, martial arts master, exploit weakness, extreme endurance, physical resistance, defensive roll, and greater defensive roll, and they still get quivering palm and can use it more times per day.
-Sohei Monk: all simple and martial weapons and light armor, Rides horses, uses weapons. No unarmed progression (so still 1d3).

Feat:
-Hammer the Gap. Gain bonus on damage equal to number of times you've hit the enemy before in that round
-3.5 Cleave (next part of Cleave tree)
Dimensional Savant: requires three feats, abundant step/dimension door and BAB 9
"While using the Dimensional Dervish feat, you provide flanking from all squares you attack from. Flanking starts from the moment you make an attack until the start of your next turn. You can effectively flank with yourself and with multiple allies when using this feat."
-Dimensional Dervish: Full attack after Dimension door/Abundant step (don't know Preqs)

Weapon:
Kusanagi back (same as 3.5 I think)
Katana and Washashi gets Deadly trait (+4 DC to Coup De Grac, so better chance enemy will fail save vs death)

Mechanics:
Called Shots are back!

Spells:
-1st level Mirror Image that is canceled if they hit the real you.

[Lastgrasp]

Sounds like the Monk got some good stuff. Can't wait to get a copy of this book.

[Fax Celestis]

Ammo still cost outageous sums
[...]
you can't sell ammo

:smallconfused:

[BobVosh]

:smallconfused:

Right here Fax, right here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html)

I like the sounds of the bard changes, although I doubt they will be useful.

[Starbuck_II]

:smallconfused:
If everyone buys ammo for 10/10 cost, but you make/craft for 1/10th: why would you buy it from a PC?

It seems very bad for business.
The rationale for cost for ammo is it is exporting costs (since normally all ammo/weapons come from only that one non-magic kingdom).

[Rixx]

How late? No wait, let me guess: 20th level.

It's a feat tree three deep, with the Abundant Step ability being the only pre-req - so it looks like 17th level. It's also available to anyone who can cast the spell dimension door, so a Magus could actually get it earlier. A wizard could, of course, get it even earlier, but unless you're going Eldritch Knight it won't do you much good.

Something neat, though, is that you can divide the teleportation between attacks.

The feat tree goes even further, eventually amounting to Dragonball Z levels, letting you teleport so fast you can flank with yourself.

They're not combat feats, unfortunately, so it looks like a two-level dip in fighter won't let you get it earlier.

That being said, monks get a lot of other cool stuff besides. The Martial Artist archetype removes the alignment restriction and replaces a bunch of the weird supernatural abilities with extraordinary abilities that synergize way better.

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/6453/martist.png (OGL text)

I wouldn't dismiss this book that readily, there's tons of good stuff for mundane types here.

[BobVosh]

It's a feat tree three deep, with the Abundant Step ability being the only pre-req - so it looks like 17th level. It's also available to anyone who can cast the spell dimension door, so a Magus could actually get it earlier. A wizard could, of course, get it even earlier, but unless you're going Eldritch Knight it won't do you much good.

Something neat, though, is that you can divide the teleportation between attacks.

The feat tree goes even further, eventually amounting to Dragonball Z levels, letting you teleport so fast you can flank with yourself.

I now want to build an arcane trickster.

[Larpus]

Looks like a whole world of fun in those pages.

How are the Alchemists? Hope they got more archetypes, discoveries and/or spells that support a melee type?

[Fax Celestis]

If everyone buys ammo for 10/10 cost, but you make/craft for 1/10th: why would you buy it from a PC?

It seems very bad for business.
The rationale for cost for ammo is it is exporting costs (since normally all ammo/weapons come from only that one non-magic kingdom).

It's lazy design, is what it is.

[Larpus]

It's lazy design, is what it is.
Or over-concern in players having TECHNOLOGY, which strikes quite similar to the whole concern of if, *gasp*, players try to...this makes me afraid of just mentioning...CRAFT...may God help us all...

[Zolthux]

So what are the rules on called shots? anyone can confirm these?

[Psyren]

That being said, monks get a lot of other cool stuff besides. The Martial Artist archetype removes the alignment restriction and replaces a bunch of the weird supernatural abilities with extraordinary abilities that synergize way better.


I'm still not convinced. How long do fatigue/exhaustion stay relevant? A heck of a lot less time than poison and disease do, I'm willing to bet.

Death/ED immunity is nice, but at 20? By the time you're that high you can afford to have a constant effect item of Death Ward crafted for you, or buy one of those scarabs or something.

Pounce at 17! Let's celebrate! *fweeeeee* *streamers*


It's also available to anyone who can cast the spell dimension door, so a Magus could actually get it earlier.

So casters still beat them at melee? I'm shocked :smallwink:

[Starbuck_II]

Ooh, Ranged feats I missed:

Snap Shot: Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +6 Threaten squares within 5 feet of you when wielding a ranged weapon

Improved Snap Shot dex 15, Snap Shot, base attack bonus +9 You threaten an additional 10 feet with Snap Shot

Greater Snap Shot dex 17, Improved Snap Shot, base attack
bonus +12 Gain bonus on damage and critical confirmation when using ranged weapons (as part of opportunity attacks)

So now you threaten with a ranged weapon.

Weapon:
Nodachi (Martial, 2 handed) 1d10, 18-20, Brace (like spear/polearms quality, so deal extra to chargers)

So better than Bastardsword usually...

Styles: feats anyone can take that act as stances in 3.5 (first one in each feat tree)
First Crane:

Crane Style (Combat, Style)
Your unarmed fighting techniques blend poise with graceful defense.
Prerequisites: Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +2 or monk level 1st.
Benefit: You take only a –2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. While using this style and fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you gain an additional +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class.

Crane Wing (Combat)
You move with the speed and finesse of an avian hunter, your sweeping blocks and graceful motions allowing you to deflect melee attacks with ease.
Prerequisites: Crane Style, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +5 or monk level 5th.
Benefit: Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you.

Crane Riposte (Combat)
You use your defensive abilities to make overpowering counterattacks.
Prerequisites: Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8 or monk level 7th.
Benefit: You take only a –1 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. Whenever you use Crane Wing to deflect an opponent's attack, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent after the attack is deflected.


Now Boar:

Boar Style (Combat, Style)
Your sharp teeth and nails rip your foes open.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Intimidate 3 ranks.
Benefit: You can deal bludgeoning damage or slashing damage with your unarmed strikes—changing damage type is a free action. While using this style, once per round when you hit a single foe with two or more unarmed
strikes, you can tear flesh. When you do, you deal 2d6 bleed damage with the attack.


Bleed damage is a damage that keeps damaging till healed (with cure spells) or first aid applied (heal skill).

Description of Stances:

The martial styles are mostly named for animals or elemental outsiders. Each styke is a three feat chain, and you can only use one style at a time, switching between them as a swift action:
*Boar Style: RIP AND TEAR. Gives you piercing and bleed with unarmed strikes.
*Crane Style: Graceful and delicate. Reduces penalties for fighting defensively and lets you deflect incoming attacks.
*Djinni Style: Bonus electricity Elemental Fist attacks, and grants AC while you have EF uses left. Eventually gives electricity resistance and deafens enemies with thunder.
*Dragon Style: Bonuses to save against stuff dragons are resistant or immune to, and lets you charge through difficult terrain or allied squares.
*Earth Child Style: Designed for gnomes and dwarves. Improves the defensive training racial ability and lets you knock down bigger opponents.
*Efreeti Style: Same as Djinni style, but with fire. Lets you throw around cones of fire.
*Janni Style: Whirling fighting style that reduces charge penalties and enemies' flank bonuses.
*Kirin Style: You make Knowledge checks against enemies to gain bonuses against them, like a martial arts version of the archivist archetype.
*Mantis Style: Extra stunning fists, and worse penalties from stunning fist.
*Marid Style: Same as Djinni style, but with cold. You can entangle enemies in ice.
*Monkey Style: Add your Wisdom bonus to Acrobatics and Climb, and you don't take penalties while fighting prone.
*Panther Style: Punishes enemies for attacking you by attacking them back.
*Shaitan Style: Same as Djinni style, but with acid. You can knock people down by stomping.
*Snake Style: Replace your AC with a Sense Motive check once a round. You can eventually make attacks of opportunity against people who missed you.
*Snapping Turtle Style: You get a shield bonus to AC if you keep a hand free, and people take penalties to confirm crits against you.
*Tiger Style: You can do slashing and bleed with your unarmed attacks, and you get bonuses to your CMD against bull rush, overrun, and trip. You can apply the penalty from Power Attack to your AC instead of your attack rolls.


Spells:

Mirror Strike: You may strike multiple opponents with a single attack"

"Illusion of Calm: You appear to be standing still, even
when you take some actions." (No AoOs from doing some stuff, like casting)

"Ant Haul, Communal: As ant haul, but you may divide the
duration among creatures touched." There are a bunch of these communal spells.

"Spontaneous Immolation: Target takes 3d6 points of fire
damage and catches on fire"

"Warding WeaponF: The weapon you use for the focus
of this spell defends you, allowing you to cast spells
without provoking attacks of opportunity"

"Chain of Perdition: Creates a floating chain of force." (Has Reach, does combat maneuvers)

"Pup Shape: Transforms a single animal or magical beast
into a younger and cuter version of itself for a short
period of time."

"Arcane CannonF: Your focus becomes a magical cannon
that fires on its own."


To describe called shot:
Called Shots: Take penalties to hit to try and hit body parts, penalty depends on how small the body part is. If you hit, something happens. If you crit, something better happens. If you do more than 50 damage, something really good happens.

In addition, there are Finishing Move feats (basically feats that activate when you knock someone to 0 or less hps):
Cleaving Finish: When you knock down an enemy, you can make a free additional attack against an adjacent enemy.

[Rixx]

I dunno, I think the ability to make a check to automatically bypass a foe's damage reduction is pretty good, personally.

[Starbuck_II]

I dunno, I think the ability to make a check to automatically bypass a foe's damage reduction is pretty good, personally.

True, but he loses 1 attack/rd (remember you could normally spend Ki to add another attack).


But overall, at lower levels the Martial Artist seems way better than a Monk. Not sure about later ones.

[CigarPete]

It's a feat tree three deep, with the Abundant Step ability being the only pre-req - so it looks like 17th level. It's also available to anyone who can cast the spell dimension door, so a Magus could actually get it earlier. A wizard could, of course, get it even earlier, but unless you're going Eldritch Knight it won't do you much good.

Something neat, though, is that you can divide the teleportation between attacks.

The feat tree goes even further, eventually amounting to Dragonball Z levels, letting you teleport so fast you can flank with yourself.

They're not combat feats, unfortunately, so it looks like a two-level dip in fighter won't let you get it earlier.

That being said, monks get a lot of other cool stuff besides. The Martial Artist archetype removes the alignment restriction and replaces a bunch of the weird supernatural abilities with extraordinary abilities that synergize way better.

I wouldn't dismiss this book that readily, there's tons of good stuff for mundane types here.

You can do the full attack action at 15th, abundant step at 12, feat at 13/15 and bonus monk feat at 14. It's not quite where a Magus or EK can get it, at 13th, but still not bad.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So, how long until it's actually on store shelves? Paizo's pretty vague about those.

[Khantin]

My nerd-store just got ultimate magic, so I imagine it could be a while before it will be in at most places.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Odd. My nerd-store's had Ultimate Magic for weeks now.

[Anderlith]

August 11th I believe

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Dammit, and my friends wanna go to the nerd-store this Friday! What'll I purchase?

[The Glyphstone]

Pre-order?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

My parents get suspicious when I order stuff online. At the store I can pay cash.

[The Glyphstone]

I meant pre-order through the store. If you're a regular customer, can't you buy a copy on reserve or something?

[Lastgrasp]

How did the final version of the Ninja, Samurai, and Gunslinger turn out?

[stainboy]

Yeah, I want to hear more about those. In beta the ninja was a rogue with "ninja tricks" because why fix what ain't broke, and the samurai was a cavalier with different orders. I don't know what the gunslinger did. Every time I tried to read it I had to stop for fear of a headdesk-related concussion.

[Rixx]

Main change to the ninja is that the one free uses of the ninja talents requiring ki are gone. Rogues can select ninja tricks, and can take a talent to give them a ki pool.

Samurai, as far as I know, is the same.

[Shadow Lord]

So the Rogue and the Ninja are different... how?

[Starbuck_II]

So the Rogue and the Ninja are different... how?

Sadly, they playtested protested about the ninja so much the Ninja lost a lot. I wish the free useage/day was kept for Ninja Talents.

Well, Rogue-Alternate Ninjas start Poison use at 1st and with Ki at 2nd level (but can only get Cha) and can gain a talent.
Rogues start with trapfinding at 1st and have to take a Talent to gain Ki at 2nd level (but choose wis or Cha)but have evasion.

So they are more equal about level 4 I guess:
Rogue could have trapfinding, evasion, ki, and 1 rogue or ninja talent
Rogue-Alternate Ninja has poison use, Ki, 2 Ninja Talents

[Prime32]

Sadly, they playtested protested about the ninja so much the Ninja lost a lot. I wish the free useage/day was kept for Ninja Talents.From what I've heard, all 3+X/day abilities were at-will before playtesters complained.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I meant pre-order through the store. If you're a regular customer, can't you buy a copy on reserve or something?
Yeah, but I don't get up to the Twin Cities that often. If I pre-ordered it, the store would only keep it for a week, and I doubt I'd be able to convince someone to drive me up there to pick it up, since I cannot drive.

[Starbuck_II]

From what I've heard, all 3+X/day abilities were at-will before playtesters complained.

Yeah, the Core classes used to be I think. Except the Alchemist they were never at will Bombs.

[Ashram]

So, can anyone tell me anything about the "merciful healer" cleric archetype? I was hoping to use it for a cleric character if it isn't just a cut-and-paste "Healing" copy of the Undead Lord from Ultimate Magic.

[Tetsubo 57]

A sling bullet weighs 8 ounces. Over a cubic inch of lead (6.55 ounces). Do you know how many .50 caliber rounds you can make from just one of those? And you get ten of them for 1 sp. That is a *lot* of rounds. Rounds should be dirt cheap.

Interestingly, D&D (and Pathfinder) have often had insanely heavy weapon weights. But lead sling bullets were actually in the 8 - 16 ounce range in real life. I guess even a broken clock is right twice a say.

[Anderlith]

Haha, I love that ninjas didn't get a lot of love (though I'm sad monks did)

Most eastern influenced material is far too hyped up in my opinion. Ninjas were just terrorist of the day just like the IRA, & monks are really really dedicated individuals that have extraordinary dedication & natural abilities but face it, fists can't go through field plate.

[IthroZada]

Haha, I love that ninjas didn't get a lot of love (though I'm sad monks did)

Most eastern influenced material is far too hyped up in my opinion. Ninjas were just terrorist of the day just like the IRA, & monks are really really dedicated individuals that have extraordinary dedication & natural abilities but face it, fists can't go through field plate.

I'm not getting your point here. Guys with pointy hats can't really throw fireballs, I hope you realize. The point of a fantasy game is to add fantasy to these archetypes. No one actually thinks ninjas could literally turn invisible, and no one actually thinks an armored soldier with max ranks in jump and a running start could jump a canyon.

[NamelessNPC]

Haha, I love that ninjas didn't get a lot of love (though I'm sad monks did)

Most eastern influenced material is far too hyped up in my opinion. Ninjas were just terrorist of the day just like the IRA, & monks are really really dedicated individuals that have extraordinary dedication & natural abilities but face it, fists can't go through field plate.

I really can't understand why you would enjoy to have less cool playable classes in a game. Isn't the more the merrier pretty much by definition in this case?

[Anderlith]

I'm not getting your point here. Guys with pointy hats can't really throw fireballs, I hope you realize. The point of a fantasy game is to add fantasy to these archetypes. No one actually thinks ninjas could literally turn invisible, and no one actually thinks an armored soldier with max ranks in jump and a running start could jump a canyon.

You're point is flawed. D&D is a simulation,i.e. why does field plate have a higher Armor bonus than that of a chain shirt? Because Field Plate is more protective in real life, this is a logical conclusion to the effects of the armor in game.

Some derived statistics exist like HP, a poor mechanic to reflect the healthy condition of a person but most more accurate systems are time consuming or flawed, so it is an excepted mechanic.

As for Magic. It has no rules in real life so anything can be written for that. (yes we have the keys of Solomon & the works of Crowley but unless I see someone summon a demon in real life I'm going to remain skeptical on magics existence )

But ninjas are real & should be taken with a grain of salt when used in games. Alchemist smoke bombs & Stealth skills are fine but "suPAR NiNja SkiLLZ" influenced by Anime need to be removed

[IthroZada]

You're point is flawed. D&D is a simulation,i.e. why does field plate have a higher Armor bonus than that of a chain shirt? Because Field Plate is more protective in real life, this is a logical conclusion to the effects of the armor in game.

Some derived statistics exist like HP, a poor mechanic to reflect the healthy condition of a person but most more accurate systems are time consuming or flawed, so it is an excepted mechanic.

As for Magic. It has no rules in real life so anything can be written for that. (yes we have the keys of Solomon & the works of Crowley but unless I see someone summon a demon in real life I'm going to remain skeptical on magics existence )

But ninjas are real & should be taken with a grain of salt when used in games. Alchemist smoke bombs & Stealth skills are fine but "suPAR NiNja SkiLLZ" influenced by Anime need to be removed

Alchemists were real. They could not create mutagens to grow claws and a bite attack, or literally go Jekyll and Hyde. The closest anyone has gotten to that is steroids. Barbarians were real, and certainly couldn't use a rage power to make a breath weapon attack. Druids were real, and certainly couldn't turn into a bear. Inquisitors were real, and certainly could not cast spells. D&D is not about simulating real world concepts, it is about romanticizing those concepts.

Your issue seems to be far more with anime than realism, because if you want realism from archetypes based off of real world groups, you are playing the wrong game.

[Fax Celestis]

You're point is flawed. D&D is a simulation,i.e. why does field plate have a higher Armor bonus than that of a chain shirt? Because Field Plate is more protective in real life, this is a logical conclusion to the effects of the armor in game.

Some derived statistics exist like HP, a poor mechanic to reflect the healthy condition of a person but most more accurate systems are time consuming or flawed, so it is an excepted mechanic.

As for Magic. It has no rules in real life so anything can be written for that. (yes we have the keys of Solomon & the works of Crowley but unless I see someone summon a demon in real life I'm going to remain skeptical on magics existence )

But ninjas are real & should be taken with a grain of salt when used in games. Alchemist smoke bombs & Stealth skills are fine but "suPAR NiNja SkiLLZ" influenced by Anime need to be removed

This mentality is why spellcasters consistently beat the snot out of noncasters. You could have written your post as "Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards" and nothing more, and your point would not have changed.

[Anderlith]

A normal person vs. a normal person = Tie (for the most part)
A normal person vs. a person that can throw fire = Crispy human

(My opinion) Magic should be a template or something. Why can't a wizard do some push ups or a sorcerer swing an axe? Only game balance thinks wizards should be scrawny geeks that can't even pick up their own spellbooks, but face it, someone who could gain all that power & be that smart would not neglect his body.

Wizards should have a more enforced limit to their powers & should have certain rules to what their spells can do. Quadratic Wizards are wizards with unlimited potential. I do not support this. I believe magic should have a cost, but that does not need to be reduced HP & no hope of getting any real fighting skills

[Shadow Lord]

So... basically everyone gets Magic? That is, dare I say it, more broken than a straight Wizard.

And, in real life Soldiers can't jump canyons, as someone already said.

[Anderlith]

So... basically everyone gets Magic? That is, dare I say it, more broken than a straight Wizard.

And, in real life Soldiers can't jump canyons, as someone already said.

Where did I say everyone should get magic???:smalleek:

By the way at what level can they jump canyons? (Without magic items)

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

A normal person vs. a normal person = Tie (for the most part)
A normal person vs. a person that can throw fire = Crispy human

(My opinion) Magic should be a template or something. Why can't a wizard do some push ups or a sorcerer swing an axe? Only game balance thinks wizards should be scrawny geeks that can't even pick up their own spellbooks, but face it, someone who could gain all that power & be that smart would not neglect his body.

Wizards should have a more enforced limit to their powers & should have certain rules to what their spells can do. Quadratic Wizards are wizards with unlimited potential. I do not support this. I believe magic should have a cost, but that does not need to be reduced HP & no hope of getting any real fighting skillsSo what you're really saying is you don't like D&D. Have fun with the multitude, nay, overabundance of other systems which successfully model how magic should work for you. Let me emphasize that last part: for you.

[Shadow Lord]

You said Magic should be a Template. Templates are fun to abuse!

IIRC, a fighter can jump a good 40 feet without a running start by Level 20

[Anderlith]

You said Magic should be a Template. Templates are fun to abuse!

IIRC, a fighter can jump a good 40 feet without a running start by Level 20

So level 20? did you know that you start to surpass most human abilities by level 7-10ish?

[Fax Celestis]

So level 20? did you know that you start to surpass most human abilities by level 7-10ish?

Aaaaand the reason that shouldn't reflect in, say, the ninja's class features is...?

[Shadow Lord]

No, you actually don't. Well, I haven't done any detailed cimparison, but if you're a Fighter, it's all possible.

[IthroZada]

So level 20? did you know that you start to surpass most human abilities by level 7-10ish?

A level 1 fighter, with the Run feat and 16 strength, could jump 20ft on a lucky 18 roll. While wearing full plate. While not limited specifically to the fighter, that is superhuman and not at all what I would expect from a simulation game instead of what is effectively a medieval superhero game. Granted, the world record for the long jump is almost 30ft, but they definitely didn't do that wearing full plate.

And why is it you are so obsessed with ninjas having more than human abilities but any other class doing it is okay?

[Curious]

Aaaaand the reason that shouldn't reflect in, say, the ninja's class features is...?

But- but! Only magic can be the cause of supernatural feats! Anything else is unrealistic!

[Anderlith]

A level 1 fighter, with the Run feat and 16 strength, could jump 20ft on a lucky 18 roll. While wearing full plate. While not limited specifically to the fighter, that is superhuman and not at all what I would expect from a simulation game instead of what is effectively a medieval superhero game. Granted, the world record for the long jump is almost 30ft, but they definitely didn't do that wearing full plate.

And why is it you are so obsessed with ninjas having more than human abilities but any other class doing it is okay? Proper field plate is not nearly encumbering than people believe
Obsessed? I just thought it was funny. Too many people think they are amazing awesome, when all they really did was kill samurai when they were sleeping. Not really that epic a thing to do.

[IthroZada]

Proper field plate is not nearly encumbering than people believe

That has nothing to do with jumping 30ft in it. You cannot do that without being superhuman. I don't care if you can do a cartwheel in it, it is still heavy as hell when your goal is to not touch the ground. Would you like to stop avoiding answering why you think that Ninjas and monks are the only class in D&D that can't be mystical and romanticized while every other class ever is perfectly allowed to be? Because if you aren't going to offer any rationality to your through process, I feel as if we are done here.

[Anderlith]

I don't mind them being "romanticized" I just don't like people who think they should be part Wizard, part Rogue, part assassin, part Alchemist & get to disappear right in front of my eyes just because some kid saw Naruto do it (some of the worst "ninja" I've seen)

[Curious]

I don't mind them being "romanticized" I just don't like people who think they should be part Wizard, part Rogue, part assassin, part Alchemist & get to disappear right in front of my eyes just because some kid saw Naruto do it (some of the worst "ninja" I've seen)

So Ninjas, warriors who specialize in assassination and the shadowy arts, are not allowed to turn invisible because you don't like a show? Truly, flawless reasoning.

[MeeposFire]

Besides none of that is new. They were saying ninjas have been doing that stuff like that in various media before Naruto came along.

[DeMouse]

Has anyone gone through the new rogue talents yet?

specifically are there any that would be a particular help to a sniper/scout rogue focussed on a single ranged sneak attack per round?

[Anderlith]

So Ninjas, warriors who specialize in assassination and the shadowy arts, are not allowed to turn invisible because you don't like a show? Truly, flawless reasoning.

It's about equal to letting a wizard cast resurrection because he saw the wizard in Conan do it

[WildPyre]

It's about equal to letting a wizard cast resurrection because he saw the wizard in Conan do it

Not sure I get your point here... last I checked Wizards COULDN'T cast resurrection.

[Prime32]

It's about equal to letting a wizard cast resurrection because he saw the wizard in Conan do itMore like letting a wizard cast resurrection because almost every fictional wizard can do it.

Naruto invented nothing. Fictional ninjas were walking on water, creating copies of themselves, shooting fire by making handsigns, etc. since the beginning. If you don't believe me click here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiraiya).

Also, you seem to be missing that Naruto sucks at being a ninja within his own series, and they never send him on stealth missions. A village full of ninja needs to diversify, and when they need someone assassinated they send these guys (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/ANBU).

[Ravens_cry]

Some of us feel that things that are not explicitly supernatural should act only within the general bounds of plausibility. I am not saying either perspective, magic ninja verses peasant terrorist, is wrong, but it is one I mostly sympathize with and prefer in my games.

[WildPyre]

Some of us feel that things that are not explicitly supernatural should act only within the general bounds of plausibility. I am not saying either perspective, magic ninja verses peasant terrorist, is wrong, but it is one I mostly sympathize with and prefer in my games.

Well what contitutes a supernatural class? Wizards and sorcerers obviously, but what about rangers? They get spells and a magic animal. Bards have magic music for cripe's sake...

Basicly I see D&D as a realm of fantasy where people can do amazing things and the world is a wonderous place all around. May not be everyone's cup of tea and you're more than welcome to limit what is an isn't acceptable in your game.

I think the main problem came from the guy equating anything that wasn't a perfectly mundane ninja as being Naruto inspired... and then backing it up with faulty logic.

I'm all for people running their games however makes them happy and they enjoy... it's when they're jerks about how other people enjoy their fantasy that ruffles my goat.

[Ravens_cry]

Bards could definitely use some fluff 'explanation' for their abilities.
I see rangers as being more martial and less spiritual counterparts to Druids, drawing from that same connection to the Spirit of the World.

[Anderlith]

Well what contitutes a supernatural class? Wizards and sorcerers obviously, but what about rangers? They get spells and a magic animal. Bards have magic music for cripe's sake...

Basicly I see D&D as a realm of fantasy where people can do amazing things and the world is a wonderous place all around. May not be everyone's cup of tea and you're more than welcome to limit what is an isn't acceptable in your game.

I think the main problem came from the guy equating anything that wasn't a perfectly mundane ninja as being Naruto inspired... and then backing it up with faulty logic.

I'm all for people running their games however makes them happy and they enjoy... it's when they're jerks about how other people enjoy their fantasy that ruffles my goat.

It's not just "Naruto" It is people's view on ninjas in general. In the 90's it was great, ninjas like TMNT didn't have superpowers & everyone loved them but suddenly bam the 00's come along & everyone thinks ninja's were the best thing in the world & could kill anyone with a mean glare.

[Prime32]

It's not just "Naruto" It is people's view on ninjas in general. In the 90's it was great, ninjas like TMNT didn't have superpowers & everyone loved them but suddenly bam the 00's come along & everyone thinks ninja's were the best thing in the world & could kill anyone with a mean glare....whuh? I just linked to stories about magic-using ninjas that were hundreds of years old.

And changing from "everyone loved them" to "everyone thought they were the best thing in the world" is awful?

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, even I disagree with that statement of how eighties and nineties ninjas were all mundane. Ninjas were HUGE back then, bigger then they are now. Just watch some wire-fu movies from those decades, magic ninja were pretty darn the norm.

[Anderlith]

...whuh? I just linked to stories about magic-using ninjas that were hundreds of years old.

And changing from "everyone loved them" to "everyone thought they were the best thing in the world" is awful?

Could every ninja do that? If not the hero just took some levels in druid or Wizard/Sorcerer

[Lastgrasp]

It's a fantasy game so I don't mind Ninjas being over the top. I don't see the monk being just a eastern theme either. It's not suppose to based entirely in reality. There are western martial arts dating back to greek culture with Ancient Greek wrestling and Pále.

Western culture has a rich martial background too with gladiators and gladiator school going back to the roman empire. Also fencing, cloak & dagger, etc. It kinda gets lost because the knight becomes the symbol of that era since Europe was constantly at war

Pankration is greek wrestling/boxing. Grappling and Punching sounds like a monk could be martial artist of pankration.

[Anderlith]

Yeah, even I disagree with that statement of how eighties and nineties ninjas were all mundane. Ninjas were HUGE back then, bigger then they are now. Just watch some wire-fu movies from those decades, magic ninja were pretty darn the norm.

Not many wire-fu had magic ninjas as a rule (Wire moves not included) I wouldn't mind wire-fu ninjas

[Ravens_cry]

Not many wire-fu had magic ninjas as a rule (Wire moves not included) I wouldn't mind wire-fu ninjas
Wire-fu was the magic. Catching arrows and other supernatural skills, like walking across water, were also seen.
@Lastgrasp:
Technically speaking, martial arts includes swords and other weapons. Of which the Western world also has a rich tradition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swordsmanship#European).

[FMArthur]

What you find fun in a game shouldn't change based on how many people like television shows you don't like. Are fantasy bards totally unplayable to you because there exists popular music that you don't like in the real world?

[NateClark]

I think for ninja magic you just sort of have to accept that its quite common. I'm guessing most wouldn't really be interested in a class based on cross-dressing (something that actually happened in A LOT of popular ninja-lore)

If you do not like the fact that ninja as a base class has magic I'd make the simple suggestion that you just play a rogue with lots of tools and use some of the added oriental weapons from UC. I know smoke pellets were in the adventurers armory add on which has a very ninja feel (having just played a ninja in a PF game in the last 2 years or so).

Also, who here has never seen "American Ninja"? (not to be confused with Beverly Hills Ninja). I believe that movie came out in the 80's, Naruto is nothing new really, just a resurgence of concepts that have already been well established.

[Ravens_cry]

Is that directed at me, FMArthur? My dislike of supernatural ninja isn't rooted in a dislike for Naruto.
Still, if I was going to play a ninja, I would probably just play a rogue and max out skills like Stealth, Disguise and Linguistics. If you want to play a magic ninja, fine, the Ninja class will aid that goal. But I personally prefer the peasant terrorist kind.

[Sarcasmancer]

This thread about ninjas is very interesting. Incidentally, I hear that Ultimate Combat (which contains a Ninja class) was recently released to subscribers! Has anyone else heard this? Maybe we should start a new thread on that topic! Sorry for the thread derail!

[Starbuck_II]

Since I grew up with Inindo: Way of the Ninja (great SNES game): magic ninja seemed normal.

Legend of the Dragoon for playstation had magic Ninja as first boss battle (he used mirror Image).

But anyway: since a rogue Talent includes Hide in Plain sight now, both Rogue and the archetype will be good at hiding.

[Ravens_cry]

Ooh, what level can you take it? Low enough and I could take it for a pistol packing Arcane Trickster. Of course, greater invisibility would eventually be mine, but this would be a good start.

[NateClark]

Since I grew up with Inindo: Way of the Ninja (great SNES game): magic ninja seemed normal.

Ah good times, good use of an inn aswell....

Remember old School Ninja Gaiden? Or that show Ninja Scroll?

Oh as for Hide in Plain sight I do think its in reach for aspiring would be ninja's. Now if only the equipment book brings out Watershoes you'll be set.

[Gametime]

I don't mind them being "romanticized" I just don't like people who think they should be part Wizard, part Rogue, part assassin, part Alchemist & get to disappear right in front of my eyes just because some kid saw Naruto do it (some of the worst "ninja" I've seen)

You really do seem to think they shouldn't be romanticized, though, if you'll pardon me saying so. I mean, ninjas aren't the first character class to exist in real life and be completely different in D&D. Barbarians couldn't fly into superhumanly strong rages (well, not most barbarians, anyway), bards couldn't cast spells, clerics couldn't cast spells, druids couldn't cast spells (or turn into animals), and paladins couldn't cast spells or summon magical horses.

You claim magic doesn't need to be realistic, something that I'll agree with, but your standards for which classes need to be held to strict historical standards seems utterly arbitrary. Ninjas can't do crazy magic stuff because ninjas couldn't in real life, but clerics doing crazy magic stuff despite not being able to do it in real life? Totally fine!

[Anderlith]

You really do seem to think they shouldn't be romanticized, though, if you'll pardon me saying so. I mean, ninjas aren't the first character class to exist in real life and be completely different in D&D. Barbarians couldn't fly into superhumanly strong rages (well, not most barbarians, anyway), bards couldn't cast spells, clerics couldn't cast spells, druids couldn't cast spells (or turn into animals), and paladins couldn't cast spells or summon magical horses.

You claim magic doesn't need to be realistic, something that I'll agree with, but your standards for which classes need to be held to strict historical standards seems utterly arbitrary. Ninjas can't do crazy magic stuff because ninjas couldn't in real life, but clerics doing crazy magic stuff despite not being able to do it in real life? Totally fine!

First off, Barbarian, bard & druid isn't the best names for the classes isn't the best name for the class. Clerics could preform miracles (if you believe old lore) Examples Solomon, Moses, the Priestesses of Minerva,& the Monks of Tiamat (Hindu not D&D).

Also my dislike for anime comes from my dislike of the magic ninja as the norm not the other way around. (i.e. I dislike magic ninja's therefore I dislike Naruto). I, like Raven's Cry, prefer terrorist type ninja's. (Though maybe not for the same reasons)

[Larpus]

So...hmmm....this is kind of a crazy idea, but play a Rogue and call yourself a Ninja then...?

[Shadow Lord]

Yo bro i herd u liked terrrist ninjaas so i said go refluff rogue to be terrorist ninjas, bro.

Silliness aside, I'm sorry for bringing up the ninja and causing this.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

All this ninja talk has made me curious about something else: The Samurai promised in Ultimate Combat.

How exactly are they portrayed? Are they at least better than Complete Warrior's samurai?

[Starbuck_II]

All this ninja talk has made me curious about something else: The Samurai promised in Ultimate Combat.

How exactly are they portrayed? Are they at least better than Complete Warrior's samurai?

They are Cavalier alternates so similar to one.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

There is a mundane alternative to ninja, by the way. It's called the core rogue. If you want to go even further, you could say it's the core expert.

Character class is not necessarily the same as known title. A "ninja" in a game of D&D could be a rogue, or a bard, or even a wizard with the right spells. For people who want a ninja with some magical capabilities, there's the UC Ninja. For people who don't, there are other classes and archetypes that fit the bill. I only see one remaining problem...

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/haters-gonna-hate-18.jpg?w=500&h=375

[Luckmann]

Anyone that would care to list the new archetypes? I read that there were a massive 60 new archetypes, spread across the base classes. :smallcool:

[Ashram]

Anyone that would care to list the new archetypes? I read that there were a massive 60 new archetypes, spread across the base classes. :smallcool:

There's already a list of the archetypes from Ultimate Combat in Paizo's blog; it was the first UC preview.

[Lastgrasp]

Here is the list from the blog.

Alchemist: This section presents the beastmorph and ragechemist archetypes.
Barbarian: This section includes the armored hulk, scarred rager, sea reaver, titan mauler, true primitive, urban barbarian, and wild rager.
Bard: This section includes the archaeologist, daredevil, and dervish dancer.
Cavalier: This section includes the beast rider, emissary, gendarme, honor guard, luring cavalier, musketeer, standard bearer, and strategist.
Cleric: This section includes the crusader, divine strategist, evangelist, and merciful healer.
Druid: This section includes the ape shaman, bat shaman, and boar shaman, as well as the world walker.
Fighter: This section includes the armor master, brawler, cad, dragoon, gladiator, tactician, thunderstriker, tower shield specialist, unarmed fighter, and unbreakable.
Gunslinger: This section includes the gun tank, musket master, mysterious stranger, and pistolero.
Inquisitor: This section includes the iconoclast, spellbreaker, and witch hunter.
Magus: This section includes the kensai, myrmidarch, skirnir, and soul forger.
Monk: This section includes the flowing monk, maneuver master, martial artist, master of many styles, sensei, sohei, and tetori.
Paladin: This section includes the divine hunter, empyreal knight, holy gun, holy tactician, knight of the sepulcher, and sacred shield.
Ranger: This section includes the battle scout, deep walker, falconer, trophy hunter, warden, and wild stalker.
Rogue: This section includes new rogue talents, plus the bandit, chameleon, charlatan, driver, knife master, pirate, roof runner, sanctified rogue, and survivalist.
Wizard: This section includes the arcane bomber, siege mage, and spellslinger.

[Maquise]

What do we know about the new feats? That's what had me the most interested.

[Luckmann]

Here is the list from the blog.Yay, thanks!


Alchemist: This section presents the beastmorph and ragechemist archetypes.
Barbarian: This section includes the armored hulk, scarred rager, sea reaver, titan mauler, true primitive, urban barbarian, and wild rager.
Bard: This section includes the archaeologist, daredevil, and dervish dancer.
Cavalier: This section includes the beast rider, emissary, gendarme, honor guard, luring cavalier, musketeer, standard bearer, and strategist.
Cleric: This section includes the crusader, divine strategist, evangelist, and merciful healer.
Druid: This section includes the ape shaman, bat shaman, and boar shaman, as well as the world walker.
Fighter: This section includes the armor master, brawler, cad, dragoon, gladiator, tactician, thunderstriker, tower shield specialist, unarmed fighter, and unbreakable.
Gunslinger: This section includes the gun tank, musket master, mysterious stranger, and pistolero.
Inquisitor: This section includes the iconoclast, spellbreaker, and witch hunter.
Magus: This section includes the kensai, myrmidarch, skirnir, and soul forger.
Monk: This section includes the flowing monk, maneuver master, martial artist, master of many styles, sensei, sohei, and tetori.
Paladin: This section includes the divine hunter, empyreal knight, holy gun, holy tactician, knight of the sepulcher, and sacred shield.
Ranger: This section includes the battle scout, deep walker, falconer, trophy hunter, warden, and wild stalker.
Rogue: This section includes new rogue talents, plus the bandit, chameleon, charlatan, driver, knife master, pirate, roof runner, sanctified rogue, and survivalist.
Wizard: This section includes the arcane bomber, siege mage, and spellslinger.

Oh. My. :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

Yay, thanks!

Rogue: This section includes new rogue talents, plus the bandit, chameleon, charlatan, driver, knife master, pirate, roof runner, sanctified rogue, and survivalist.

Oh. My. :smallbiggrin:

Whelp, that means Paizo has killed any hope of playing a multiclassed ninja/pirate.

[FMArthur]

A Gunslinger with Profession (Sailor) probably works just as well for pirates. I'll bet that the alternate Rogue Pirate is just Rogue + firearm use anyway.

[Arakneo]

Whelp, that means Paizo has killed any hope of playing a multiclassed ninja/pirate.

Not if they don't replace the same class features :smallsmile: either way you can actually have two times the same class if you don't have the same archetype. All hope is not lost!

[Luckmann]

Whelp, that means Paizo has killed any hope of playing a multiclassed ninja/pirate.The usefulness of such a combination notwithstanding, why wouldn't you be able to do that? There's nothing preventing a Ninja/Pirate, is there?

Also, on the topic at hand - are there no Ninja or Samurai archetypes? I saw Gunslinger got some. All of them are new.

Edit: Or have I missed something? You all speak as if the Ninja is a rogue archetype, but I got the impression that it was a new class, and so was Samurai...?

[Curious]

There is a Ninja class, but it's an alternate class of the rogue, so you can't take levels of both.

[The Glyphstone]

Edit: Or have I missed something? You all speak as if the Ninja is a rogue archetype, but I got the impression that it was a new class, and so was Samurai...?

Yeah, Ninja and Pirate are both Rogue archetypes.

[Luckmann]

There is a Ninja class, but it's an alternate class of the rogue, so you can't take levels of both.
Yeah, Ninja and Pirate are both Rogue archetypes.Dammit, that's not what I was expecting at all. :smallsigh:

Well we can always hope that they don't replace the same class features. Then it's easier to create your Ninja/Pirate than ever. :smalltongue:

[NateClark]

For those of you but yet unawares.... The SRD "had"

-Link Removed-

the majority of the juicy bits of the book up there now......and it is quite juicy

[Luckmann]

For those of you but yet unawares....

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-queues/3-working/paizo-products/pathfinder-rpg-line/ultimate-combat/chapter-1--classes

has the majority of the juicy bits of the book up there now......and it is quite juicyWelp, Ninja doesn't get Trapfinding, so picking a Rogue with the Ninja Alternate Class and the Pirate Archetype is out of the question.

Thanks for the link.

I must say that I absolutely adore the idea of the Holy Gun Paladin Archetype. :smallbiggrin: Now I just need to figure out a good way to dual-wield it and wear light armor. :smallyuk:

Edit: Curse them! Curse them for adding the Divine Hunter Archetype, yet have it also replace Divine Bond! Curse them forever! It would've meshed perfectly with the Holy Gun and the replacement is almost identical!

Edit 2: It also expends Smite Evil uses, something the Holy Gun no longer has. Seriously, it would've been so extremely easy to mesh these two archetypes together, with some careful wording, such as allowing the choice to choose between expending Smite Evil, Grit or Holy Grit, instead of just Smite Evil, for the purpose of Divine Hunter's Hunter's Blessing, as well as a small notation on the Divine Bond replacement (Look at them! They're virtually identical, except that the Holy Gun has to choose a gun! Fgdsfg!

Edit 3: Could someone read this to me? Because I'm confused. The Holy Gun archetype gets Smite Evil replaced by Divine Deed. It is basically a ranged, gun-based Smite Evil. Fair enough. But it uses Grit and says specifically that if you have levels in Gunslinger, you may expend uses of Grit to use it.

But the Paladin/Holy Gun Archetype doesn't actually get it's own Grit until level 11.

This strikes me as odd, although of course, anyone with half a sense will grab a single level of Gunslinger regardless, just to stack WIS+CHA (At Pal 11) Grit points, but still. :smallconfused:

[Curious]

Hm, the Dervish Dancer Bard archetype doesn't look too bad. Loses team support, but gains a lot more lethality. I'd play it.

[The Glyphstone]

Does the Ragechemist's Rage Mutagen stack with the base mutagen effects, giving an extra +6 untyped Strength bonus on top of the +4 alchemical bonus?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Rogue: This section includes new rogue talents, plus the bandit, chameleon, charlatan, driver, knife master, pirate, roof runner, sanctified rogue, and survivalist.

Must. Buy. Book. Now.

*goes to look at NateClark's link*

[Curious]

Does the Ragechemist's Rage Mutagen stack with the base mutagen effects, giving an extra +6 untyped Strength bonus on top of the +4 alchemical bonus?

It doesn't replace mutagens, so by RAW that looks like a yes.

EDIT: Beast Rider Cavalier's can ride T-Rexs.

[The Glyphstone]

Nice......

[Luckmann]

Must. Buy. Book. Now.
*goes to look at NateClark's link*
The rest of us get excited about slinging holy bullets, silently murdering people in the night, sailing the high seas and turn into ragetastic machines of death.

You get excited about running over roofs? Are you some kind of parkour fan? :smalltongue:


It doesn't replace mutagens, so by RAW that looks like a yes.

EDIT: Beast Rider Cavalier's can ride T-Rexs.Just what we needed. Primordial jousting.

This is gonna be all the rage at the court. :smallbiggrin:

[BobVosh]

The rest of us get excited about slinging holy bullets, silently murdering people in the night, sailing the high seas and turn into ragetastic machines of death.

You get excited about running over roofs? Are you some kind of parkour fan? :smalltongue:

Didn't play assassin creed much, eh?

PDF available tomorrow, 09:00 AM:

So close, yet so far. Just sitting here...thinking about how nice it would to be to have. :'(

[Larpus]

Balls, the Ragechemist is less appealing than I expected, too much toll on the weak save (Will).

Beastmorph is not quite what I was expecting, but sounds rather cool actually, I only got one question regarding it, it mentions:
Beastform Mutagen: At 3rd level, a beastmorph’s mutagen causes him to take on animalistic features—whether those Classes of an animal, a magical beast, an animal-like humanoid (such as a lizardfolk), or a monstrous humanoid. For example, when the beastmorph uses his mutagen, he may gain a furry muzzle and pointed ears like a werewolf, scaly skin like a lizardfolk or sahuagin, or compound eyes and mandibles like a giant insect. The beastmorph also gains his choice of one of the abilities listed in the alter self spell, which persists as long as the mutagen. He may select a different ability each time he creates a mutagen. This ability replaces swift alchemy.
Now, as per the Alter Self description we have:
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.

Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.

Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.
Now, are the bonuses for small.medium considered "abilities"?

I'm guessing not, but I wanted the clarification anyway.

[NateClark]

Oh come now....

Did you look at all the Grapple Feats and the New monk Grappler Archtype....

GHOST WRESTLING!.

My personal favorite MUST be the Titan Mauler...

So with Massive Weapon thats a Large Sized Great Sword...(3d6)

With Titanic Rage that becomes a HUGE Greatsword. (Assuming 4d8 damage approx)
Now lets give him a good old Greater Vital strike....
(12d8)
Furious Finish....
(dmg maxxed for the hit....96)
Devastating strike (96+6)
Raging Brutality (lets say your raging Con is now 20, so thats 96+6+7)
Strength While Raging 20 (your a weakling by barb standards at this level)
(96+6+7+7)
Power Attack (With Furious Blow for good measure)
Say level 16th...So thats +15 from Power Attack (96+6+7+7+15)
So thats a attack for 131...

Rawr baby.....and thats not using a magic weapon or with impressive stat lines...

[BobVosh]

What is ghost wrestling, who thought it was a good idea to grapple touch attack stat damage creatures?

[DeMouse]

Oh come now....

Did you look at all the Grapple Feats and the New monk Grappler Archtype....

GHOST WRESTLING!.

My personal favorite MUST be the Titan Mauler...

So with Massive Weapon thats a Large Sized Great Sword...(3d6)

With Titanic Rage that becomes a HUGE Greatsword. (Assuming 4d8 damage approx)
Now lets give him a good old Greater Vital strike....
(12d8)
Furious Finish....
(dmg maxxed for the hit....96)
Devastating strike (96+6)
Raging Brutality (lets say your raging Con is now 20, so thats 96+6+7)
Strength While Raging 20 (your a weakling by barb standards at this level)
(96+6+7+7)
Power Attack (With Furious Blow for good measure)
Say level 16th...So thats +15 from Power Attack (96+6+7+7+15)
So thats a attack for 131...

Rawr baby.....and thats not using a magic weapon or with impressive stat lines...



I can 1-up you on that

Start be a dwarf, use a dwarven waraxe. Counts as a 1-handded weapon and does d10 damage. Up its size by 1 and it now counts as a two-handed weapon at a -2 attack penalty. 1d10 goes up to 2d8. Then add Titan mauler to up its size again and it will do 3d8.

Ring of lead blades/Ranger casting lead blades on you. 3d8 goes up to 4d8.

Titanic rage or enlarge person will bring it up another size and 4d8 increases to 6d8 (If third party content is allowed play Half-Giant from psionics unleashed and just take exotic proficiency in dwarven waraxe to let you increase it another size to 8d8)

Greater vital strike for 18d8 (24d8 if half-giant is allowed)

thats all I can think of. Find a way to increase it another size and it would go from 8d8 to 12d8 base, 36d8 with greater vital strike.


If you start playing the vital strike/weapon size game you can get a plain silly ammount of dice.




chew on THAT sorcerors/wizards.

[BobVosh]

Giant form increases by two categories, which if you have umd or something isn't too hard to get.

[NateClark]

What is ghost wrestling, who thought it was a good idea to grapple touch attack stat damage creatures?

LOL, Teh Tpteo Monk gets ghost touch, dimension anchor and can just do plain aweful things in a grapple...worst part is. He keeps his AC bonuses while grappling so the poor grappled ghost starts crying bloody murder as he tries to hit with his touch attack...

[CTrees]

Given the Pathfinder weapons rules, I don't think the Titan Mauler is as good as everyone seems to think, if the wording in the work-in-progress section is correct.

From the Titan Mauler:

Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

Massive Weapons (Ex): At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0). This ability replaces trap sense.

From the weapon size rules:

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.

The Titan Mauler reduces penalties for using, say, a dagger designed for a Cloud Giant, and can weild a greatsword in one hand, but as listed on the Pathfinder SRD, it doesn't have anything exempting it from the clause prohibiting it from using a weapon which would, by size, be greater than two-handed. So Bob, the sixth level medium TM, using a greatsword designed for a medium creature as a one-handed weapon is kosher, and if he picked up a longsword designed for a large creature he could use it in two hands with no penalty. However, if Bob kills a large creature that had a greatsword designed for its size, it would be completely impossible for him to weild it, and it appears, RAW, that using that large-longsword one-handed would also be impossible.

[Larpus]

Given the Pathfinder weapons rules, I don't think the Titan Mauler is as good as everyone seems to think, if the wording in the work-in-progress section is correct.

From the Titan Mauler:


From the weapon size rules:


The Titan Mauler reduces penalties for using, say, a dagger designed for a Cloud Giant, and can weild a greatsword in one hand, but as listed on the Pathfinder SRD, it doesn't have anything exempting it from the clause prohibiting it from using a weapon which would, by size, be greater than two-handed. So Bob, the sixth level medium TM, using a greatsword designed for a medium creature as a one-handed weapon is kosher, and if he picked up a longsword designed for a large creature he could use it in two hands with no penalty. However, if Bob kills a large creature that had a greatsword designed for its size, it would be completely impossible for him to weild it, and it appears, RAW, that using that large-longsword one-handed would also be impossible.
Could be an oversight tho, as the wording and overall flavor text of the ACF seems to imply that such a Barbarian can wield massive weapons as if he were bigger as seen here:

In lands overrun by giants, dragons, and other hulking beasts, entire fellowships of barbarians hone tactics and traditions with one purpose—to bring low these massive foes. While her enemies’ size makes the creatures strong, the titan mauler is even stronger, taking up weapons from her fallen foes that no lesser warrior can lift, and using them when she beseeches the spirits to grant her increased size and greater ferocity against her titanic foes.
Which can be taken to mean "he can lift Large+ 2H weapons"; but it's really a DM call whether this flavor text can be taken as encouraging the RAI over RAW.

Likewise, the scaling bonus of the Massive Weapons seems to favor this as well, since having more than +2 or +3 to fight with bigger weapons becomes pointless if the most the barbarian can use is a huge light weapon.

[Zejety]

I've read somewhere that Ultimate Combat has a feat that allows AoOs with whips. Can someone confirm that?

[CTrees]

Could be an oversight tho, as the wording and overall flavor text of the ACF seems to imply that such a Barbarian can wield massive weapons as if he were bigger as seen here:

Which can be taken to mean "he can lift Large+ 2H weapons"; but it's really a DM call whether this flavor text can be taken as encouraging the RAI over RAW.

Likewise, the scaling bonus of the Massive Weapons seems to favor this as well, since having more than +2 or +3 to fight with bigger weapons becomes pointless if the most the barbarian can use is a huge light weapon.


Absolutely agreed, and Paizo has some *really* bad editting. That said, relying on GM fiat which would make the class better than RAW seems like unsteady ground, for looking at the power of a class/ACF... especially if you're proposing stacking half-giant and weapon-size increasing spells to get to high-OP levels of damage.

[Larpus]

I've read somewhere that Ultimate Combat has a feat that allows AoOs with whips. Can someone confirm that?
Can't you do that normally?

I mean, they're listed as melee weapons despite their reach, and it's specifically mentioned that you can threaten more squares (specifically for AoOs, that is) with a reach weapon.

And I just found out that no you can't, though it can be debated whether you can do that with a Scorpion Whip (same deal, except a bit more expensive, lethal and d4), since Scorpion Whip's description doesn't mention anything about threatening (so by omission it's "as normal") and can be argued that Whip's non-threatening-ness is due to it not giving lethal damage.

[subject42]

There is a Ninja class, but it's an alternate class of the rogue, so you can't take levels of both.

That seems... needlessly complex.

[Larpus]

Absolutely agreed, and Paizo has some *really* bad editting. That said, relying on GM fiat which would make the class better than RAW seems like unsteady ground, for looking at the power of a class/ACF... especially if you're proposing stacking half-giant and weapon-size increasing spells to get to high-OP levels of damage.
I agree as well, it does seem to step a bit too strong on the ground. I'm not saying that "melee can't have nice things", but I can see a lot of Fighters and other Barbarians frowning whenever a Titan Mauler appears, this can be especially bad since the mauler doesn't exactly give up a lot of things to do what he does, and boy, does he do that well by RAI.

Still, I'd rule that he can and actually be rather balanced about it based solely on how hard it'll be for him to find magical and optimized Large+ weapons (and "unrealistic" fluff-wise to be able to just buy one every other town), after all pretty much his main source of weapons is, as the text says, slain gigantic foes, so if the DM wants to tone him down, just refrain from making him battle humanoid Tarrasques wielding +30 Greatswords.

Similarly, the DM could also charge him more for magical enhancements for such weapons, so it doesn't get too ridiculous too fast.

[CTrees]

RE: Availability

*shrug* if it was me, and the Titan Mauler was allowed to function as it seems to be intended, I'd just plan on putting some points into craft (or bribing the rogue or wizard to do it). Unless I'm missing something obvious, by RAW a given weapon costs the same regardless of size*, so the time to craft isn't that rough. This gets really sticky with multiple phases of houseruling, though.

Personally, I think I'd houserule the ACF to allow a TM to use any weapons recovered from enemies he, personally, had a hand in killing, with size penalties extrapolated out. Fits the fluff exactly. Then I'd either ban him from using oversized weapons he just purchased, or make them unavailable unless he went into a cloud giant town or whatever - how many human blacksmiths are going to be physically capable of making a gargantuan greatsword? All of this is RAI/houserules, though, so... yeah.

*EDIT: Actually... that's interesting. There are listed and obvious rules for weight increases, but there I, at least, can't find rules indicating cost increases for oddly sized weapons (and, certainly, it stays the same in practice for small/medium/large creatrures, so...). Thus... if one were to take Leadership, taking followers who were crafters (NPC classes will be fine) and had them craft gargantuan adamantine sling bullets... Sling bullets are explicitly batches of 10ea for a cost of 1sp and weight of 5lbs, at medium size. Cost of masterwork ammunition is explicitly 6gp/missile, and cost of adamantine is 60gp/missile. Thus, a batch of 10ea gargantuan, adamantine sling bullets weighs eighty pounds and has a market value of 660.1gp, costing ~220.03gp to craft (cost to craft explicitly includes all the raw materials). Naturally, your followers take ten, aid another, etc. Result, you've spent ~2.75gp per pound of adamantine. Then, you go ahead and sell it not as bullets (cannon balls, really, but they're just big spheres), but as a bulk commodity, by weight. Profit from the sweatshop should be... continuous, and rather immense. Interesting.

[FMArthur]

The Magus archetypes made me sad. None of them add anything particularly exciting and still replace other features, yet every single one has Diminished Spellcasting as a feature, because obviously the guy who uses magic to whack people with weapons can't fit in with the melee theme of the book without having that reduced. :smallconfused:

Still reading. I really like the Gunslinger. And the Spellslinger Wizard archetype sounds really cool, but its text on that site is fragmented and incomplete in what seems to be critical information. I don't see information on how guns work or how good they actually are, though; I can surmise based on the Gunslinger's features that you can't full-attack with them without special abilities, which is a bit of a downer.

[NamelessNPC]

The link doesn't work anymore, it now leads to a rant about how linking the work in progress has delayed the complete update. This is why we can't have nice things, I guess

In any case, I really liked the kensai (I think that was the name) magus archetype, the one that can't use armor. Yes, it has diminished spellcasting and it's possibly underpowered, but has just about every cool feature that I enjoy my characters having.

[Fax Celestis]

I don't see information on how guns work or how good they actually are, though; I can surmise based on the Gunslinger's features that you can't full-attack with them without special abilities, which is a bit of a downer.

...so, like a crossbow.

[CTrees]

The link doesn't work anymore, it now leads to a rant about how linking the work in progress has delayed the complete update. This is why we can't have nice things, I guess

Haha, wow. Epic bold text and everything. It's not productive, but that response from Paizo just provokes a gut "QQ more" reaction...

I mean, oh no! People are interested in your work, and want to see what your company is putting out! Worst thing ever, right?

[FMArthur]

...so, like a crossbow.

That was my thought, but given that they have a class feature to make a poor-man's full-attack, I think the action requirements are even more severe, and not negated by a mere feat. I also sort of got the impression that firearms are touch attacks within their first range increment, which could be something they have over ordinary ranged weaponry if their damage doesn't turn out to be all that compelling.


CTrees, Paizo doesn't run d20pfsrd, and don't have anything against them putting up their open content on the site. These guys are just trying to organize and categorize a big pile of information, and I guess visitors were somehow interfering with the process and making it harder. What's wrong with the site forbidding access for the moment while they fix things up?

[Larpus]

RE: Availability

*shrug* if it was me, and the Titan Mauler was allowed to function as it seems to be intended, I'd just plan on putting some points into craft (or bribing the rogue or wizard to do it). Unless I'm missing something obvious, by RAW a given weapon costs the same regardless of size*, so the time to craft isn't that rough. This gets really sticky with multiple phases of houseruling, though.

Personally, I think I'd houserule the ACF to allow a TM to use any weapons recovered from enemies he, personally, had a hand in killing, with size penalties extrapolated out. Fits the fluff exactly. Then I'd either ban him from using oversized weapons he just purchased, or make them unavailable unless he went into a cloud giant town or whatever - how many human blacksmiths are going to be physically capable of making a gargantuan greatsword? All of this is RAI/houserules, though, so... yeah.

*EDIT: Actually... that's interesting. There are listed and obvious rules for weight increases, but there I, at least, can't find rules indicating cost increases for oddly sized weapons (and, certainly, it stays the same in practice for small/medium/large creatrures, so...). Thus... if one were to take Leadership, taking followers who were crafters (NPC classes will be fine) and had them craft gargantuan adamantine sling bullets... Sling bullets are explicitly batches of 10ea for a cost of 1sp and weight of 5lbs, at medium size. Cost of masterwork ammunition is explicitly 6gp/missile, and cost of adamantine is 60gp/missile. Thus, a batch of 10ea gargantuan, adamantine sling bullets weighs eighty pounds and has a market value of 660.1gp, costing ~220.03gp to craft (cost to craft explicitly includes all the raw materials). Naturally, your followers take ten, aid another, etc. Result, you've spent ~2.75gp per pound of adamantine. Then, you go ahead and sell it not as bullets (cannon balls, really, but they're just big spheres), but as a bulk commodity, by weight. Profit from the sweatshop should be... continuous, and rather immense. Interesting.
Whoa, for real?

That is one major oversight, that simply can't be right, hope the actual book has something on that, but I don't think I've ever seen any DM that'd let it slip like that.

Still, yeah, the ability to wield larger weapons can be rather easily balanced out on "common sense", as you noted, I find it hard to have a medium crafter make anything bigger than a large whatever.

And I agree as well, I'd rule against the Barbarian just using larger weapons unless he's at least fought with a foe who wielded such a weapon at some point (so he has the whole "I'll beat him senseless at his own game, literally" fluff going on).


The Magus archetypes made me sad. None of them add anything particularly exciting and still replace other features, yet every single one has Diminished Spellcasting as a feature, because obviously the guy who uses magic to whack people with weapons can't fit in with the melee theme of the book without having that reduced. :smallconfused:

Still reading. I really like the Gunslinger. And the Spellslinger Wizard archetype sounds really cool, but its text on that site is fragmented and incomplete in what seems to be critical information. I don't see information on how guns work or how good they actually are, though; I can surmise based on the Gunslinger's features that you can't full-attack with them without special abilities, which is a bit of a downer.
I agree, the Magus' archetypes also made me very sad...not only Diminished Spellcasting (on a half caster on top of that) is bad, but also most/all of them take away your Recall Spell and Improved, making these archetypes really underperform the base class. I'm not against making a less magical Magus (as strange as that sounds), but at least give the man some worthwhile bonuses or less harsh penalties, I can understand Diminished or no Spell Recall, but not both.

Spellslinger sounds interesting indeed, though the cost of ammunition for non-gunslingers makes me worried.



The link doesn't work anymore, it now leads to a rant about how linking the work in progress has delayed the complete update. This is why we can't have nice things, I guess
Can't quite understand it tho, if they didn't want anyone to look they should've at least put a warning there or something, don't think that anyone (here at least) that has linked the content or anything did it with ill intentions. Anyway, it's a secret to everybody. (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=H1E7TK22) Don't worry, this is just a .doc with the content that was present at the SRD, I'm assuming they wanted access off that section of their site for whatever reason, but if it was indeed because people shouldn't be accessing that content yet, then I'll gladly put it offline once requested to do so.

[CTrees]

CTrees, Paizo doesn't run d20pfsrd, and don't have anything against them putting up their open content on the site. These guys are just trying to organize and categorize a big pile of information, and I guess visitors were somehow interfering with the process and making it harder. What's wrong with the site forbidding access for the moment while they fix things up?

First, didn't know that, so "the devs" or whatever you want to say.

Second, nothing's wrong with them forbidding access. It's the way they put it, the giant bold font, everything. NamelessPC's description of it as a rant is accurate. If they had just said "please don't link work in progress - it interferes with the process," that would've been polite and gotten the same point across. The manner in which they stated things is what makes me want to poke fun at them.

EDIT: Larpus, if that link is what I suspect, I'd strongly suggest removing it.

[Larpus]

EDIT: Larpus, if that link is what I suspect, I'd strongly suggest removing it.
Megaupload with a .doc of the content, I didn't close my browser so I still could copy-paste it, if linking is their problem I don't think this will cause a ruckus, but I'll remove it without hassle if that would get anyone in trouble.

EDIT: I'm following the train of thought that they wanted traffic off that section but not necessarily bar the access to the content (since it was there open on the internet to begin with, without any warning of any sort), but I don't want to give them, me or us any trouble for doing so.

[CTrees]

Ah... okay, I was suspecting the actual pdf of the book. In that case... I honestly don't know whether that's okay here or not. Never mind, assumed the worst!

[Luckmann]

The link doesn't work anymore, it now leads to a rant about how linking the work in progress has delayed the complete update.Hahaha, oh wow. :smallbiggrin: Wait, what? :smallconfused: Haha, how? :smallamused:

Edit: Checking the link (edit 2: link removed) again, I find it hard not to chuckle.


DO NOT LINK TO WORK IN PROGRESS. NOW OUR JOB IS SIGNIFICANTLY HARDER AND FINAL POSTING OF THE CONTENT WILL BE NOTICEABLY DELAYED DUE TO PUBLICLY LINKING THIS CONTENT.How? Why? How does that even make any sort of sense whatsoever? How about not hosting content publicly if the intent is not to show it publicly? In what way does people looking at it make their job harder? It's not like it can be publicly edited (afaik).

Amateurs, QQ, cry moar, whine less baby, cool story bro, etc, etc. :smallannoyed:

[Lastgrasp]

Can't wait for my hard copy arrive. Has anyone checked out Inner Sea Magic sourcebook that was just released? It suppose to be a crunch heavy book with new archetypes for casters, magic items, and a boatload of spells. If so, anything good in it?

[CTrees]

What makes the rant especially funny is the Work Queues section of the SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-queues). Everything else in the work queue is publicly, and intentionally, linked, and one of their people had to have done it... the only reason the broader 'net knew about it is... the devs in control making the link public in the first place. Not sure how it isn't affecting everything else on there (which is roughly a giant boatload), or why they even have that section of the site, if it's a problem.

It's all very lulzy, basically.

[NateClark]

Well,


That is sort of par for the course with Public access I reckon.

[jreyst]

Hey Guys,

This is John Reyst, the main dude behind d20pfsrd.com and the one responsible for the big bold text on the Ultimate Combat pages.

I want to make something clear. We have an unofficial agreement with Paizo and various 3rd Party Publishers to NOT make their content publicly available for a minimum of 2 weeks AFTER the book has been available "on the street" meaning, in stores. We had this same issue with Bestiary 2 also. We post the extracted content from PDF's into a temporary working area while the team cleans it up and links it etc. We don't intend content in the work areas to be for "public" consumption since a) its ugly and b) its usually there before the "street +2 week" delay period. We had been told by Google (who hosts the site) that a new feature was imminent, one that would allow us to add different security settings to different sections of the site, thereby allowing us to keep to our agreements. Ultimately we want to minimize any possible loss of sales a publisher may see as a result of their being so open to the Open Gaming ideas.

So its not us, or most certainly not Paizo, trying to be mean, or cruel, or whatever, its just us, as in d20pfsrd.com, trying to adhere to our agreements to respect the publishers wishes. We'll try to get the content up as fast as possible but having public messageboards posting links to the content defeats our agreement so we have to move the content, which makes our job harder and will take us longer to do since we now have to jump through additional hurdles etc.

Sorry, but that's the way it is for now until Google gets this feature released.

--john

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Perfectly understandable. I don't plan on looking for stuff on the SRD until I've actually purchased the physical book. I want Paizo to have my money so they can continue creating awesome Pathfinder stuff.

[jreyst]

I want Paizo to have my money so they can continue creating awesome Pathfinder stuff.

That's our position as well but we sometimes fear that others may not share that attitude.

[CTrees]

First, let me say that I really appreciate the site and all of your effort.

Now, then... Do you see how the giant text and ranting tone might come off a bit... off, compared to saying either what you did here, or even just a simple, one-line "this was not meant to be publically accessible, please do not link," in a normal, non-bold font size? You guys, in general, have a very professional seeming site (though I have some issues with how it shows on my phone now...), and this seemed incongruous.

Second, the big rant, shouldn't that have been more of an internal rant? After all, someone made the page publically visible, like the rest of the work queue stuff. I check that page fairly often, so I'm sure someone would have found it. That's not our fault, is it? We didn't hack in, or abuse our permissions in order to gain access to the Ultimate Combat page and then illicitly post it across the message boards - you guys made it visible, someone found it, and, as it seemed no different from anything else (which is fine to link), it got distributed because it was interesting. Why are you acting like we did something wrong?

Again, I love the work you're doing, I really do. This is just... odd, to me.

EDIT: Just for the record, I'm the guy in my group that has to buy all the books, so I'm definitely buying Ultimate Combat. Unfortunately, my local games store doesn't have it yet, and I want to support them just as much as I want to support Paizo (thus, not simply ordering it online). So... yeah.

[KitsuneKionchi]

I'm getting kinda worried...I pre-ordered my book from my local shop and I don't think he's gotten his shipment in (i.e. I don't see any extra boxes behind the counter where they normally are and he usually proudly announces when he gets something). I'm sure that these modules were shipped out prior to launch--right? Like...that's one of the primary reasons to have a release date--to make sure all the shops have it out at the same time so smaller shops with frequent distributor problems don't lose business to larger shops that get their stuff on time.


EDIT: Just for the record, I'm the guy in my group that has to buy all the books, so I'm definitely buying Ultimate Combat. Unfortunately, my local games store doesn't have it yet, and I want to support them just as much as I want to support Paizo (thus, not simply ordering it online). So... yeah.


I kinda wish I just ordered from Paizo now...at least I'd be sure I'd get the PDF. My shop owner said at some time Paizo gave PDF access to the stores to give to the customers who pre-order the books but the system hasn't been working for him since they changed distributors or something...but I still feel like I'd rather support my LFGS.

EDIT: Also, my group has stopped playing until I finish the next dungeon for the other DM. And the other DM wants Ultimate Combat material in it...

[jreyst]

First, let me say that I really appreciate the site and all of your effort.

Thanks! I'll treat the rest of your post in the positive, non-aggressive way I'm sure you intended then...


Now, then... Do you see how the giant text and ranting tone might come off a bit... off, compared to saying either what you did here, or even just a simple, one-line "this was not meant to be publically accessible, please do not link," in a normal, non-bold font size? You guys, in general, have a very professional seeming site (though I have some issues with how it shows on my phone now...), and this seemed incongruous.

Sure, but to be honest we went through all of this with Bestiary 2 and asked/made very clear on every board we could, that posting links to content in the work areas was not desired. We currently have no other technically viable means of doing what we do without adding significant time delays to the process. The big bold text was me being frustrated. And, as a sidenote, I'm the one guy on the site who tends to screw things up when it comes to any sort of diplomacy effort which means I'm usually the last person people want communicating with people "off site." However, I'm also ultimately the final person responsible for the site and overnight we became aware of a LOT of links being posted all over the web to the work area content. I had to do something quick and the big bold text was me showing my irritation at having to do this.


Second, the big rant, shouldn't that have been more of an internal rant?

Which "the big rant" are you referring to? The big bold text on the UC pages, or my previous post here?


After all, someone made the page publically visible, like the rest of the work queue stuff. I check that page fairly often, so I'm sure someone would have found it. That's not our fault, is it? We didn't hack in, or abuse our permissions in order to gain access to the Ultimate Combat page and then illicitly post it across the message boards - you guys made it visible, someone found it, and, as it seemed no different from anything else (which is fine to link), it got distributed because it was interesting. Why are you acting like we did something wrong?

We didn't/don't have a way NOT to have it be public. We post content in the work area because that's NOT the final place for it on the site. We don't go out of our way to make something public or not public. If its on the site it HAS to be public since there's no mechanical way of doing otherwise. The only part that got me bugged was that we tried to be very clear the last time that posting links kills our process and our agreement thus causing us to have to do other things. Of course not everyone could have known that, but most people read the Paizo boards, and other boards, and we hoped the word would have spread. It didn't and yes, that's on us. The long and short of it becomes though that if we are to adhere to our agreement with the publishers we can't rely on asking people not to post links clearly. We're still very hopeful the new security features will be in place in the next few weeks from Google but until they are we have two massive books we have to work on.


Again, I love the work you're doing, I really do. This is just... odd, to me.

It's odd because its me. I'm prone to snap decisions. In general though don't hold my actions against the site or the others who volunteer massive amounts of their time to the site. They had nothing to do with it other than making me aware of links they discovered on various boards.


EDIT: Just for the record, I'm the guy in my group that has to buy all the books, so I'm definitely buying Ultimate Combat. Unfortunately, my local games store doesn't have it yet, and I want to support them just as much as I want to support Paizo (thus, not simply ordering it online). So... yeah.

Well obviously we agree. I hope you (and others) understand why we (I) did what we (I) did and will spread the word not to post links to anything in the work areas.

--john

[subject42]

We didn't/don't have a way NOT to have it be public. We post content in the work area because that's NOT the final place for it on the site. We don't go out of our way to make something public or not public. If its on the site it HAS to be public since there's no mechanical way of doing otherwise.

Would it be possible to set up a second google site with the full protections and shift content over when it's ready?

It would solve your access problems, but I don't know how much of a cost there is in moving pages between google sites.

[CTrees]

I was unaware you went through something like this with Bestiary 2. When that book came out, I wasn't aware of it ahead of time, so one day it was just on the shelves of my game shop, so I scooped it up. However, with Ultimate Magic, I was first able to check it out via your work queue, and, yeah. You know.

Ultimately, well... I don't know, but I've said my piece. I'll just chalk it up to a couple bad rolls - everyone fumbles sometimes.

[NateClark]

Ultimately, well... I don't know, but I've said my piece. I'll just chalk it up to a couple bad rolls - everyone fumbles sometimes.

Silence brain eater!

-chuckles- Well slip ups happen.

Back onto greener pastures. Someone talked about the TM Class and the cost of making bigger weapons....(Page 144 on Pathfinder core) says that Large weapons costs x2 the cost of a normal weapon. I'd assume Huge would cost x2 that....etc etc.

Something that gives me a hint of confusion with regards to the whole Titan Mauler using a Large Greatsword (so a Huge Greatsword for him).

They got a Ability that reduces the oversized weapon pen by -1 at 3rd and -1 every 3 levels till they hit 0. That seems a little dicey to me given that on page 144 of the core, they talk about inappropriately sized weapons giving a cumulative -2 for each size cata, which seems unneccessary since you couldn't use something more then 1 size catagorey too big for you anyways.

So a Large Dagger would be a 2 hander? Or a 1 hander?

Just trying to get a better grip on how this works...

Myself I'm of the mindset that characters with humorously large swords just seems characterful given how long it would take even a TM to ramp up to the point where it would make people go "Whoa" and since its damage dice typically, unlike the static bonus from power attack, made much juicer with Furious Blow, I don't really see that sort of damage being a issue in the mid Teens where they'd get it.

[CTrees]

Back onto greener pastures. Someone talked about the TM Class and the cost of making bigger weapons....(Page 144 on Pathfinder core) says that Large weapons costs x2 the cost of a normal weapon. I'd assume Huge would cost x2 that....etc etc.

Ah... you are correct. I missed that - it's not noted next to the table, where weight increases are, and I must have skimmed over it. So, yeah, that whole bit of crafting shenanigans is largely out. However, it's really not all that much added cost. Assuming double at every size category, that means a +1 Flaming colossal greatsword would cost 9100gp, as opposed to 8350gp for a medium one. A good amount more, but not crushing. Switch to a a greataxe and it's only 8620, v. 8320 for medium. Lower sizes, like huge, is essentially negligible after low levels - a huge, masterwork longsword would only be 45gp more expensive than a medium on - 360gp v. 315gp.

EDIT: In fact, it's entirely negligible - a batch of ten colossal adamantine sling bullets only increases to 661.6gp market value, increasing my price per pound for finished adamantine by less than a copper. Less than a copper!

[Fax Celestis]

We didn't/don't have a way NOT to have it be public. We post content in the work area because that's NOT the final place for it on the site. We don't go out of our way to make something public or not public. If its on the site it HAS to be public since there's no mechanical way of doing otherwise. The only part that got me bugged was that we tried to be very clear the last time that posting links kills our process and our agreement thus causing us to have to do other things. Of course not everyone could have known that, but most people read the Paizo boards, and other boards, and we hoped the word would have spread. It didn't and yes, that's on us. The long and short of it becomes though that if we are to adhere to our agreement with the publishers we can't rely on asking people not to post links clearly. We're still very hopeful the new security features will be in place in the next few weeks from Google but until they are we have two massive books we have to work on.

You need a big warning box header, then, on workspace pages, that reads "DO NOT POST LINKS FROM WORKSPACE PAGES UNTIL AFTER IT IS FINALIZED AND MOVED, ESTIMATED ON [blah] DATE." Something like the big green thing here (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20r:Science), or the NSFW Warning template (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Template:NSFW).

[Luckmann]

Hey Guys,

This is John Reyst, the main dude beare of a LOT of links being posted all over the web to the work ahind d20pfsrd.com and the one responsible for the big bold text on the Ultimate Combat pages.

I want to make something clear. We have an unofficial agreement with Paizo and various 3rd Party Publishers to NOT make their content publicly available for a minimum of 2 weeks AFTER the book has been available "on the street" meaning, in stores. We had this same issue with Bestiary 2 also. We post the extracted content from PDF's into a temporary working area while the team cleans it up and links it etc. We don't intend content in the work areas to be for "public" consumption since a) its ugly and b) its usually there before the "street +2 week" delay period. We had been told by Google (who hosts the site) that a new feature was imminent, one that would allow us to add different security settings to different sections of the site, thereby allowing us to keep to our agreements. Ultimately we want to minimize any possible loss of sales a publisher may see as a result of their being so open to the Open Gaming ideas.

So its not us, or most certainly not Paizo, trying to be mean, or cruel, or whatever, its just us, as in d20pfsrd.com, trying to adhere to our agreements to respect the publishers wishes. We'll try to get the content up as fast as possible but having public messageboards posting links to the content defeats our agreement so we have to move the content, which makes our job harder and will take us longer to do since we now have to jump through additional hurdles etc.

Sorry, but that's the way it is for now until Google gets this feature released.

--johnPerfectly alright and perfectly understandable.

It is just that publicly posting something and then complaining about it being public is.. somewhat hilarious. I also do not see how this has somehow delayed anything, or how that would even happen. Or why. Which somewhat adds to the hilarity of the rant.

But make no mistake; based on the work and the quality of PFSRD, were you not equipped by a penis, I would no doubt want to make sweet love to you. :smalltongue:

I'm going to go back and remove the link in my previous post now.

PS: I love the way you recently organized Archetypes. <3

Edit:
We didn't/don't have a way NOT to have it be public. We post content in the work area because that's NOT the final place for it on the site. We don't go out of our way to make something public or not public. If its on the site it HAS to be public since there's no mechanical way of doing otherwise. The only part that got me bugged was that we tried to be very clear the last time that posting links kills our process and our agreement thus causing us to have to do other things. Of course not everyone could have known that, but most people read the Paizo boards, and other boards, and we hoped the word would have spread. It didn't and yes, that's on us. The long and short of it becomes though that if we are to adhere to our agreement with the publishers we can't rely on asking people not to post links clearly. We're still very hopeful the new security features will be in place in the next few weeks from Google but until they are we have two massive books we have to work on.Wouldn't the easiest way be to simply set up a separate "work site", only available to editors, only filing finished content onto the PFSRD when done?

[jreyst]

Edit: Wouldn't the easiest way be to simply set up a separate "work site", only available to editors, only filing finished content onto the PFSRD when done?

This is what we're going to have to do. The problem is there are additional copy and paste steps and script changes that will need to be made based on the links not being on the right site etc. hence, additional time for the process. We're dealing with hundreds and hundreds of pages of content, and automate as much of it as we can. The problem is the final "pretty it up" steps still include a lot of manual checking for bad/incorrect/missing links etc.

[Prime32]

PS: I love the way you recently organized Archetypes. <3I'd already made lists in that format, which became completely redundant when the SRD did it. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/Smileys/default/arg1.gif

[Curious]

For those who were interested, the firearm rules were up on the site, in a different section, and I got a peek at them before it all went down. Unfortunately, the main weapons are all single-shot, and the damage dice are none too impressive (d8's, d10's, etc.). However, they also included rules for more powerful guns, such as revolvers, which have larger ammo capacities. So, if I were to play a gunslinger, I would definitely beg my DM to let me use advanced firearms.

Oh yeah, and the Pistolero archetype looked better than the actual class; it let you fire pistols without the possibility of jamming, and it gives you a source of bonus damage.

[Conkea]

Should've been around sooner, now i don't know anything :smallannoyed:

[Prime32]

For those who were interested, the firearm rules were up on the site, in a different section, and I got a peek at them before it all went down. Unfortunately, the main weapons are all single-shot, and the damage dice are none too impressive (d8's, d10's, etc.). However, they also included rules for more powerful guns, such as revolvers, which have larger ammo capacities. So, if I were to play a gunslinger, I would definitely beg my DM to let me use advanced firearms.

Oh yeah, and the Pistolero archetype looked better than the actual class; it let you fire pistols without the possibility of jamming, and it gives you a source of bonus damage.The playtest gunslinger rules also implied that firearms could be used to make touch attacks within one increment. Which doesn't make a lot of sense (there are weapons already in PF which penetrated armour better than guns), but whatever.

[Starbuck_II]

The playtest gunslinger rules also implied that firearms could be used to make touch attacks within one increment. Which doesn't make a lot of sense (there are weapons already in PF which penetrated armour better than guns), but whatever.

Actually, that is the official rules in pathfinder.
They wanted a reason to nerf guns but make them desirable so they gave them touch AC as if attacks.

[Ravens_cry]

Guns are <expletive redacted/> overpowered IRL, that's why we <expletive redacted/> USE THEM.

[Prime32]

Guns are <expletive redacted/> overpowered IRL, that's why we <expletive redacted/> USE THEM.These aren't modern guns. When they were introduced, the biggest advantage of firearms was that they didn't require much training to use.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

These aren't modern guns. When they were introduced, the biggest advantage of firearms was that they didn't require much training to use.

This is not actually true. Firearms required significantly more training in the days of the Arquebus than they do today.

[The Glyphstone]

Crossbows were the 'gun' of the day, weren't they? Lethal and simple to use?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Crossbows were the 'gun' of the day, weren't they? Lethal and simple to use?

Again, yes and no. They were lethal, but required training to use. Different training than required by a longbow, sure, but training nonetheless.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Again, yes and no. They were lethal, but required training to use. Different training than required by a longbow, sure, but training nonetheless.

Wow, they require you to be trained in how to shoot accurately and reload! That's way more required training than for a gun!

[The Glyphstone]

Wow, they require you to be trained in how to shoot accurately and reload! That's way more required training than for a gun!

For a medieval gun? Yeah, it was.

Crossbow = Point, shoot, let aerodynamics do its thing, hit or miss. Slide a new bolt in, crank it into position, repeat.

Musket = Point, shoot, hope the smoothbore ball flies in the general direction of your target, hit or miss. Drop a new ball in the barrel, pack it down, add gunpowder, aim, pull the trigger, hope the flint catches properly and doesn't explode in your face, repeat.

Reloading a gun was a complex and relatively difficult process compared to reloading a crossbow - the latter just required a lot of strength.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

For a medieval gun? Yeah, it was.

Crossbow = Point, shoot, let aerodynamics do its thing, hit or miss. Slide a new bolt in, crank it into position, repeat.

"Point, shoot," simple, I guess, but "let aerodynamics do its thing" isn't so simple. And I'm pretty sure you crank it into position before sliding in a bolt, but that's neither here nor there.


Musket = Point, shoot, hope the smoothbore ball flies in the general direction of your target, hit or miss. Drop a new ball in the barrel, pack it down, add gunpowder, aim, pull the trigger, hope the flint catches properly and doesn't explode in your face, repeat.

Yeah, pretty much. Excepting the order of the steps (ball goes second to last) and in the case of an Arquebus you have the additional issues of making sure your match is lit, and making sure your powder is dry, and all sorts of other issues.


Reloading a gun was a complex and relatively difficult process compared to reloading a crossbow - the latter just required a lot of strength.

A fair bit of strength, but less than with a Great English Warbow for example. A cranequin or goat's foot gives you plently of mechanical advantage, which makes it a lot less difficult than repeatedly drawing a bow.

[Prime32]

The ammunition for early guns was also easier to produce than fletched arrows. The cloud of smoke they produced could be used as a screen.

Loading times are irrelevant. You aren't going to try reloading any weapon in the middle of combat other than a bow (which is why trained archers were so dangerous). Added to that, a crossbow's "load" weakened if you didn't fire it quickly, keeping it loaded for too long would damage it, and you needed to be strong in order to load one in the first place. Accuracy is likewise irrelevant when firing into dense formations. Arming everyone with guns is more effective than arming the physically fit with crossbows.

[Anderlith]

Guns won because they are cheaper to produce, & because of the lack of skill needed. Point shoot vs parry-stab-shift-parry-slash-stab-parry-shift-slash-slash-shift

[CTrees]

Well at least this is better than arguing about ninjas.

...

Please no one suggest ninjas with guns.

[BobVosh]

Well at least this is better than arguing about ninjas.

...

Please no one suggest ninjas with guns.

I think you mean peasant assassins with guns :P

Ahhh, seriously though:

"Arcane CannonF: Your focus becomes a magical cannon
that fires on its own."

What makes this spell unique compared to spiritual weapon or what have you?

[subject42]

"Arcane CannonF: Your focus becomes a magical cannon
that fires on its own."

What makes this spell unique compared to spiritual weapon or what have you?

I think that it's because you get to pick the cannon. Additionally, couldn't you cast this more than once and have an animated grand battery?

[Larpus]

Well at least this is better than arguing about ninjas.

...

Please no one suggest ninjas with guns.
Make it bazookas and I'm in.

[Silus]

Just got my copy of Ultimate Combat (reserved my copy earlier today =D) and I am please as punch to see that the Dervish is a Bard Archetype. Always loved that prestige class in 3.5 but never got a chance to use it.

Also, Dragoons as a Fighter Archetype =D I've not read everything yet, but so far I'm loving this book.

Also, 9 pages of Feat tables =D

*Fanboy squeal of glee*

[subject42]

I've heard tell there's a feat that lets you combine all ranged iterative attacks for the purposes of overcoming DR. Is it as awesome as it sounds for rangers/ranged monks/archer fighters?

[Silus]

I've heard tell there's a feat that lets you combine all ranged iterative attacks for the purposes of overcoming DR. Is it as awesome as it sounds for rangers/ranged monks/archer fighters?

I think that's "Clustered Shots". Need Point Blank and Precise Shot and +6 BAB. Says "Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR".

[Larpus]

I think that's "Clustered Shots". Need Point Blank and Precise Shot and +6 BAB. Says "Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR".
That is quite awesome...is there such a thing for melee?

[Silus]

That is quite awesome...is there such a thing for melee?

Does not look like it, but there are ways for melee classes to boost their DR.

Examples

Stalwart
Req: Diehard, +4 BAB
Forego dodge AC bonus for equivalent DR.

Imp Stalwart
Req: Stalwart, +11 BAB
Double DR from Stalwart

Bolstered Resilience
Req: DR
Increase DR against a single attack

[FMArthur]

That is quite awesome...is there such a thing for melee?

It actually sounds a lot like Vital Strike.

[Silus]

Also, Spellslinger archetype for Wizards. They get a spell slingin' spell gun =D

Affects any spells that are ranged touch, cone, line or ray.

[BobVosh]

It actually sounds a lot like Vital Strike.

There is also pen. and g.pen. strike, cuz everyone loves playing 12th and 16th level fighters, right?

[Fax Celestis]

...doesn't stuff like the Psywar's Psionic Prowess and the Magus' Arcane Prowess qualify you for those, so you don't have to singleclass fighter?

[subject42]

...doesn't stuff like the Psywar's Psionic Prowess and the Magus' Arcane Prowess qualify you for those, so you don't have to singleclass fighter?

The Dreamscarred psywar only uses your character level as BAB for psionic feats, I believe.

[FMArthur]

...doesn't stuff like the Psywar's Psionic Prowess and the Magus' Arcane Prowess qualify you for those, so you don't have to singleclass fighter?

Magus counts as a Fighter of half his level for Fighter feat qualifications. That's right, he gets the Fighter's far-too-late, far-too-little options twice as late, and ones above 10 not at all. I'm all for the "no dead levels" thing, but I'd rather have had a --- in place of the Fighter Training class feature, for simplicity's sake and for the comfort of knowing that Paizo actually understands that they just handed out nothing.

One of the new Idiot Magus archetypes from Ultimate Combat handily remedies this to Magus Level -3.

[NateClark]

So having revisited the Titan Mauler now that I got my copy of the UC.

So with a Titan Mauler one of the issues seems to be that you can't really use Larger weapons, but with a little interpretation you can....BEHOLD

"At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a -2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must me appropriatly sized for her, and it is treated as a one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength Bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

So first off lets address the Blue text, if your gm is a nice person, this text may simply be read as "If you make a 2-hander into a 1-hander, you must make sure it only goes 1 step, thus being of a appropriate size" basically it means that if you took a Large Greatsword (a large 2-hander) it would become a LARGE 1-hander (thus usable by a medium sized creature). A HUGE 2-hander would become a HUGE 1-hander (thus not "appropriately" sized" for weilding when used with this ability)

Now lets look at the Olive Text. First we treat is as "1 handed" for Feats "and the like" which means one could argue that includes its classification as a 1-hander (althought its a LARGE 1-hander, meaning its a 2-hander for medium sized)

End result is a LARGE 2-hander for a Medium sized creature. Sure your eating a -2 to hit, but this is more a style choice given what you trade off for it. This also means that arguably Massive weapons serves a purpose PAST level 6, given that a HUGE 1-hander becomes a LARGE 2-hander, which in a TM's hands becomes a LARGE 1-hander, but is still actually a HUGE weapon and thus carries a -4 from size difference, meaning a TM might actually salvage a HUGE creatures 1-hander for use in a pinch...which would under the first rules impression be impossible.



Thoughts?

[Larpus]

So having revisited the Titan Mauler now that I got my copy of the UC.

So with a Titan Mauler one of the issues seems to be that you can't really use Larger weapons, but with a little interpretation you can....BEHOLD

"At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a -2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must me appropriatly sized for her, and it is treated as a one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength Bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

So first off lets address the Blue text, if your gm is a nice person, this text may simply be read as "If you make a 2-hander into a 1-hander, you must make sure it only goes 1 step, thus being of a appropriate size" basically it means that if you took a Large Greatsword (a large 2-hander) it would become a LARGE 1-hander (thus usable by a medium sized creature). A HUGE 2-hander would become a HUGE 1-hander (thus not "appropriately" sized" for weilding when used with this ability)

Now lets look at the Olive Text. First we treat is as "1 handed" for Feats "and the like" which means one could argue that includes its classification as a 1-hander (althought its a LARGE 1-hander, meaning its a 2-hander for medium sized)

End result is a LARGE 2-hander for a Medium sized creature. Sure your eating a -2 to hit, but this is more a style choice given what you trade off for it. This also means that arguably Massive weapons serves a purpose PAST level 6, given that a HUGE 1-hander becomes a LARGE 2-hander, which in a TM's hands becomes a LARGE 1-hander, but is still actually a HUGE weapon and thus carries a -4 from size difference, meaning a TM might actually salvage a HUGE creatures 1-hander for use in a pinch...which would under the first rules impression be impossible.



Thoughts?
If I were the DM I'd allow it.


As mentioned, until someone breaks it it's for the lulz than anything else.

Also, unless you're a tower shield user, why wouldn't you want to wield it two handed?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So is Ultimate Combat on the shelves of FLGS (Friendly Local Gaming Stores) now?

[Tvtyrant]

Guns won because they are cheaper to produce, & because of the lack of skill needed. Point shoot vs parry-stab-shift-parry-slash-stab-parry-shift-slash-slash-shift

And being able to actually penetrate armor, which arrows never did. In fact arguments were made about reinstating bows because people had abandoned armor and bows were better against unarmored opponents then guns. Ben Franklin for example.

Also, spellslinger sounds like it could be awesome if done right.

[Anderlith]

Yep, the bow made a suprising comeback for a while in the 1700's/1800-ish era

[Luckmann]

And being able to actually penetrate armor, which arrows never did. [...]What (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow#Range_and_penetration)? :smallconfused:

[senrath]

So is Ultimate Combat on the shelves of FLGS (Friendly Local Gaming Stores) now?

Well, it certainly was on the shelf of mine, as a friend of mine bought it on Thursday.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

What (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow#Range_and_penetration)? :smallconfused:

If you look into the tests cited in that article, I believe you'll find many procedural issues which would lead to inaccurate conclusions about the penetrating power of bows. You might try the Real World Weapons and Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192911) thread for more information on the subject.

[CTrees]

Horse Master is kinda fun - requires four levels of Cavalier, but then lets you use your character level to determine your mount's properties, rather than just your Cav's level. Makes a lot of potentially fun mounted builds a lot more powerful. Still, Cavalier isn't great, and four levels is rough, but... a Beast Master/Gendarme Cavalier4/mount-focused BarbarianX could be entertaining - charge into combat while raging, riding a raging tyrannosaurus... It just seems fun, especially as UC brought in a shock trooper-like feat (unfortunately still using the PF version of PA).

[Paul H]

Hi

Penetrating power of bows?

Think 'Agincourt'.

Thanks
Paul H
Edit: http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/England-History/TheLongbow.htm

Gerald of Wales commented on the power of the Welsh longbow in the 12th century:

In the war against the Welsh, one of the men of arms was struck by an arrow shot at him by a Welshman. It went right through his thigh, high up, where it was protected inside and outside the leg by his iron cuirasses, and then through the skirt of his leather tunic; next it penetrated that part of the saddle which is called the alva or seat; and finally it lodged in his horse, driving so deep that it killed the animal.

A bit like firing 20mm cannon against troops wearing flak jackets!

[Bhaakon]

What (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow#Range_and_penetration)? :smallconfused:

from your own link:


However, even heavy draw longbows have trouble penetrating well made steel plate armour, which was used increasingly after 1350.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Hi

Penetrating power of bows?

Think 'Agincourt'.

Ah yes, the battle famously won by mud.


Thanks
Paul H
Edit: http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/England-History/TheLongbow.htm

Gerald of Wales commented on the power of the Welsh longbow in the 12th century:

In the war against the Welsh, one of the men of arms was struck by an arrow shot at him by a Welshman. It went right through his thigh, high up, where it was protected inside and outside the leg by his iron cuirasses, and then through the skirt of his leather tunic; next it penetrated that part of the saddle which is called the alva or seat; and finally it lodged in his horse, driving so deep that it killed the animal.

A bit like firing 20mm cannon against troops wearing flak jackets!

I've read this before. First, yes, an English Longbow (which is not your standard bow by any means, requiring years of training on the part of the user to even draw it effectively) may have pierced iron. However, I've heard similar stories of Mongol bows piercing armor, which suggests that one or both of these stories is apocryphal. Second, that was iron, not steel, specifically not the tempered steel of proper plate armor (as became common in the late Middle Ages) which by all accounts rendered even the famed English Warbow obsolete.

Incidentally, the shrapnel from a 20mm cannon would likely not pierce a flak jacket (as the slower moving shrapnel is specifically what a flak jacket is intended to stop). A direct hit would likely prove lethal, sure, however, a direct hit is far less likely - and the shrapnel would have a serious time piercing a ballistic vest. Just so you know.

Further, I don't think this is the place for such discussion - the Real World Weapons and Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192911) thread I linked above might be a better forum.

[Luckmann]

from your own link:Keep reading.

[Bhaakon]

Keep reading.

I continue reading, and I see a bunch of experiments claiming that longbows couldn't penetrate steel plate at anything beyond point blank range, barring a lucky shot in an eye slit or under-protected joint

[Luckmann]

I continue reading, and I see a bunch of experiments claiming that longbows couldn't penetrate steel plate at anything beyond point blank range, barring a lucky shot in an eye slit or under-protected joint

Keep reading.

[BobVosh]

Keep reading.

Why not paste what you want here. It goes to talk about how those bows which are hard to use, difficult to train for, can penetrate a relatively cheap version of plate.

[Larpus]

My guess is that he's referring to this or something:

Modern tests and contemporary accounts agree therefore that well made plate armour could keep out longbows, however there are a number of caveats to this point; not all plate armour was well made or well looked after, and there were also weak points in the eye and air holes and joints where arrows could still penetrate, meaning that even if the armour was proof against nearly all arrows, being shot at by thousands of longbowmen would have been an uncomfortable experience, physically and mentally. One contemporary French account described the barrage at Agincourt (against French knights wearing plate armour) as a "terrifying hail of arrow shot".

Full plate armour of the highest quality was also extremely expensive, only used by the most elite (and rich) soldiers, such as knights; the vast majority of soldiers were not armoured in plate from head-to-toe. Even for knights, in practice their horses tended to be less well protected, meaning that longbows could kill or wound the horses even when the arrows had little effect against the knights themselves. For example, shooting the French knights' horses from the side (where they were less well armoured) was used effectively by the English longbowmen to help win the Battle of Poitiers.
Anyway, why are we discussing this?

[Luckmann]

Why not paste what you want here. It goes to talk about how those bows which are hard to use, difficult to train for, can penetrate a relatively cheap version of plate.
the forum demands words words words here

Modern tests and contemporary accounts agree therefore that well made plate armour could keep out longbows, however there are a number of caveats to this point; not all plate armour was well made or well looked after, and there were also weak points in the eye and air holes and joints where arrows could still penetrate, meaning that even if the armour was proof against nearly all arrows, being shot at by thousands of longbowmen would have been an uncomfortable experience, physically and mentally. One contemporary French account described the barrage at Agincourt (against French knights wearing plate armour) as a "terrifying hail of arrow shot".

Full plate armour of the highest quality was also extremely expensive, only used by the most elite (and rich) soldiers, such as knights; the vast majority of soldiers were not armoured in plate from head-to-toe. Even for knights, in practice their horses tended to be less well protected, meaning that longbows could kill or wound the horses even when the arrows had little effect against the knights themselves. For example, shooting the French knights' horses from the side (where they were less well armoured) was used effectively by the English longbowmen to help win the Battle of Poitiers.

[Lastgrasp]

Ugh...still waiting for my Hardcover. West coast to east coast via media mail. :smallannoyed:

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Full plate armour of the highest quality was also extremely expensive, only used by the most elite (and rich) soldiers, such as knights; the vast majority of soldiers were not armoured in plate from head-to-toe.

This contravenes what I have read regarding the costs of armor. Yes, Plate was expensive, but less so than a good charger, and less so than mail. It was easier to (mass) produce and ship across Europe, and was in fact fairly common, even amongst infantry.


Even for knights, in practice their horses tended to be less well protected, meaning that longbows could kill or wound the horses even when the arrows had little effect against the knights themselves. For example, shooting the French knights' horses from the side (where they were less well armoured) was used effectively by the English longbowmen to help win the Battle of Poitiers.

I find it interesting that the quote intended to support the point that Arrows would pierce armor does in fact do the opposite.

Regardless, this isn't really the place for this discussion - I have already twice linked to a more appropriate venue. Perhaps we might take the discussion there?

[Starbuck_II]

Since, the topic should be Pathfinder's Ultimate Combat:
ToB is loosely in Ultimate Combat:
Only stances (renamed Styles): same mechanics but obtaining. A few Maneuvers (renamed).

So far, Desert Wind stance that gives Fire resistance in ToB comes in 4 flavors: Cold (Marid), Fire (Effreti) Acid (Shainti), or Electric (Djinni).

Then Shocktrooper from 3.5 as a Stance (Tiger + Tiger Pounce).

Dragon lets you ignore difficult terrain.

Crane: Grants deflect arrows for melee attacks (mechanically) while fighting defensively or total defense. Other feats of chain reduce Figthting defensively penalty.

Janni: Lowers penalty for being Flanked or when you Charging by 1 (enemies get +1 hit when flanking you and -1 AC penalty when charging).

Kirin Style + Spirit: Achivist Dark knowkledge ability (DC 15 + CR to identify though) + 2 x Int bonuds damage vs target identified (swift action, minimum damage bonus +2).

Snake Style: When hit, as immediate action, can use Sense Motive check as a AC if higher.

Snapping Turtle Style: When one hand is free, gain Shield bonus to AC (only +1 but another feat makes it +2 and -4 hit when enemy attempts to confirm crits). A third feat apples Shield bonus to CMD and Touch AC.

So Stance do exist and a few maneuvers have been kind of created.

Snake Style is a renaming of the manuever: Baffling Defense from ToB.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Interesting. Are these available to anyone or do you need fighter levels?

[Luckmann]

Interesting. Are these available to anyone or do you need fighter levels?

Doing a quick glance through the Ultimate Wombat .pdf Feat List "Style Feat" and it appears to me that they are available to anyone, as long as they meet prerequisites. Some have rather hefty feat requirements and each style appears to be split into a feat progression of 3 feats. Most either have a BAB requirement or a certain Monk level. All also appear to require Improved Unarmed Strike (again, I'm just glancing through this) or have a prerequisite that already have a prerequisite of Improved Unarmed Strike.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong or have misunderstood something.

[Curious]

Interesting. Are these available to anyone or do you need fighter levels?

They all require IUS and a minimum monk level/BAB.

[CTrees]

Doing a quick glance through the Ultimate Wombat .pdf Feat List

I'm pegging this repetition at 90% hilarious, 10% embarrassing. :smallbiggrin:

[Prime32]

Since, the topic should be Pathfinder's Ultimate Combat:
ToB is loosely in Ultimate CombatJust Ultimate Combat? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fire-snake)

[Fox Box Socks]

I hear that the Gunslinger is the most mechanically unfocused and weak class since the 3.5 Monk.

Discuss.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I have a friend who believes there's no such thing as a weak class. If you know what you're doing and have a fair handle of optimization, you can succeed no matter what you are.

[Starbuck_II]

I hear that the Gunslinger is the most mechanically unfocused and weak class since the 3.5 Monk.

Discuss.

Depends if using Firearms as expected or allowed advanced firearms.

The most accurate thing is Gunslingers are the poorest class. Why? They are using their wealth on ammunition.
The best ammo is 12 gp per shot (paper cartridrige, 6 gp if crafted with craft Alchemy with gunsmith feat).
The best ammo for best guns is 15 gp per shot (cartiridges are normal ammo for advanced guns, you can craft for 7 gp 5 sp with gunsmith).

So you are barely using your wealth per level for much at low levels but ammo.

Why are paper cartiridges best ammo? They reduce loading time for early firearms (full rd for 2 handed, standard for 1 handed).
They are required for shooting more than 1/rd (combine with rapid reload for move action 2 handed and free action reload 1 handed).

You are bleeding gp.
Hopefully DM follows WBL and covers ammo useage because they are consumables (as the book says they should but not every DM follows that advice; they might count useage against WBL even if book advises against that)

[FMArthur]

I have a friend who believes there's no such thing as a weak class. If you know what you're doing and have a fair handle of optimization, you can succeed no matter what you are.

When does he get out of the hospital?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

When does he get out of the hospital?
...This guy's one of the best players I've ever known. He knows how to make ordinary melee classes outperform a CoDzilla or Batman Wizard.

[IthroZada]

snip

Don't Gunslingers get a crafting ability to make ammo they make themselves cost a tenth of the normal price?

[Curious]

...This guy's one of the best players I've ever known. He knows how to make ordinary melee classes outperform a CoDzilla or Batman Wizard.

No he does not. He's just not playing with CoDzilla or Batman.

[Fox Box Socks]

This has been mentioned elsewhere, but guns jamming on a natural 1/2 means that even with reload shenanigans, guns actually get worse the more attacks you have rather than better, since every shot you take is an increased chance of the gun jamming.

Really, I don't see much going for guns beyond "they're guns".

[Starbuck_II]

This has been mentioned elsewhere, but guns jamming on a natural 1/2 means that even with reload shenanigans, guns actually get worse the more attacks you have rather than better, since every shot you take is an increased chance of the gun jamming.

Really, I don't see much going for guns beyond "they're guns".

Gunslingers can clear a misfire condition with a move action as a class feature or you can just use Gunsmith feat (a free feat Gunslingers get) to clear it with craft skill (no check required) takes a few hrs (1-4) though.

Mysterious Stranger Archetype can ignore a roll of Misfire Cha uses/day.

Magic guns can get reliable (+1) to reduce total misfire by 1 or Greater Reliable (+3) to get total midfire reduced by 4.

Remember the gun is only broken condition if misfire: you can still use it.

[Ravens_cry]

The nicest part of guns is being able to make touch attacks. It will make an excellent non-spell weapon for an arcane trickster.
A fighter 4/rogue3 with snap shot and point blank master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/point-blank-master-combat) can ( I think) flank with a gun in melee and get sneak attack. Definitely late game, probably take a dip in Master Spy for another 1d6.

[FMArthur]

The 'ranged touch attack for damage as your main class feature' thing immediately brings to mind the Warlock. Is the Gunslinger as good as the Warlock? What features make them different?

[Hazzardevil]

I have a question for the owners of ultimate combat, is it OGL?

[Curious]

I have a question for the owners of ultimate combat, is it OGL?

Yes. However, Paizo generally requests that buyers keep quite about their books until the dead-tree format ones have been released, so as not to hurt business.

[Starbuck_II]

The 'ranged touch attack for damage as your main class feature' thing immediately brings to mind the Warlock. Is the Gunslinger as good as the Warlock? What features make them different?

Unlike Warlock you can enhance guns as magic weapons.
You can gain multiple attacks/rd (using rapid reload/paper cartiridges/Rapid shot/Twfing/Haste/etc).

Sadly, Warlocks can get Flight at 6th and Gunslingers are largely mundane (they can cast Knock with their gun though by shooting the lock, it specificlly says it is unlocked. Mostly for style)

Unlike Warlock you get all Grit abilties you qualify for free, no choices from a menu (so more at every interval new Grit abilities appears).
At 7th, he can flat foot a dude by missing on purpose (I guess if you are helping a rogue ally to sneak attack).


At higher levels:
They can aim at body parts (Arms auto disarm, Head conuses 1 rd, Legs Knock enemy prone, etc get benefit), cause bleeding (remember you need a heal check or healing magic to stop bleeding, nothing else will help even regeneration/Fast heal), and even a save/die (Fort save) which is rare for Pathfinder (most old save/dies because damage instead).

About the bleeding... they can cause 1 Con Bleed damage (I have no idea what this is supposed to mean)... does that work as normal bleed? Do they lose 1 Con per rd till heal skill or heal spell?


The class needs some clarification.

[Hazzardevil]

Yes. However, Paizo generally requests that buyers keep quite about their books until the dead-tree format ones have been released, so as not to hurt business.

Is this a request where if you deny them they make bad stuff happen or no repercussions?
I've heard there's a gun based cavalier archetype in it that I'm looking forward too.

[Bhaakon]

The 'ranged touch attack for damage as your main class feature' thing immediately brings to mind the Warlock. Is the Gunslinger as good as the Warlock? What features make them different?

Outside of firearms being comparable to eldritch blast because of the ranged touch attack, they're not very similar. Listing the differences would be tantamount to cutting and pasting their class entries (not ok, since UC hasn't even hit most book shelves and i'm pretty sure complete arcane isn't OGL). Suffice to say, I think the warlock's class abilities are notably superior.

As for gun vs. eldirtch blast, my op fu and math probably aren't up to the task, but I think a level 20 gunslinger will crush a warlock on raw damage to a single target, because of its higher base damage dice (d10 [rifle] or d8 [revolver] vs d6), additional damage from weapon enchantment (which can also eliminate the misfire chance), higher critical multiplier (x4), iterative attacks, full BAB (not that it matters much at that point vs touch AC), and getting to add Dex modifier in damage to each shot. That being said, the various secondary abilities that a warlock can add to their eldritch blast are (just by looking and having never played one) likely better than those a gunslinger can get from its called shot abilities.

So TL:DR, warlock probably > gunslinger, but it's not a runaway.

[Luckmann]

I have a question for the owners of ultimate combat, is it OGL?
OGL, but as per some unofficial agreement, it doesn't go up to the PFSRD until at least two weeks after the public release of the .pdf. Or at least that's how I understood it.

Is this a request where if you deny them they make bad stuff happen or no repercussions?
It's the kind of request where if you deny them, you're, like, a seriously uncool dude, man. Like totally.

I've heard there's a gun based cavalier archetype in it that I'm looking forward too.
Indeed. There's the Musketeer Archetype. It gains a Pistol or Musket (and proficiencies to use them), and a scaling class feature to compliment their use, as well as Rapid Reload (musket or pistol). These class features completely replace the Mount & Expert Training class features (at all appropriate levels). :smallsmile:

Edit:

Outside of firearms being comparable to eldritch blast because of the ranged touch attack, they're not very similar. Listing the differences would be tantamount to cutting and pasting their class entries (not ok, since UC hasn't even hit most book shelves and i'm pretty sure complete arcane isn't OGL). Suffice to say, I think the warlock's class abilities are notably superior.

As for gun vs. eldirtch blast, my op fu and math probably aren't up to the task, but I think a level 20 gunslinger will crush a warlock on raw damage to a single target, because of its higher base damage dice (d10 [rifle] or d8 [revolver] vs d6), additional damage from weapon enchantment (which can also eliminate the misfire chance), higher critical multiplier (x4), iterative attacks, full BAB (not that it matters much at that point vs touch AC), and getting to add Dex modifier in damage to each shot. That being said, the various secondary abilities that a warlock can add to their eldritch blast are (just by looking and having never played one) likely better than those a gunslinger can get from its called shot abilities.

So TL:DR, warlock probably > gunslinger, but it's not a runaway.
On the other hand, there is still no Warlock class for Pathfinder. Which still sorta irks me. I'm sure they could do something awesome with it. :smallannoyed:

And yes, it has been explained to me that Complete Arcane isn't OGL, which is likely the reason Paizo have pussied out from creating a Warlock class, even though it in my opinion could be argued that Warlock is a rather generic, run-of-the-mill fantasy concept.

[BobVosh]

And yes, it has been explained to me that Complete Arcane isn't OGL, which is likely the reason Paizo have pussied out from creating a Warlock class, even though it in my opinion could be argued that Warlock is a rather generic, run-of-the-mill fantasy concept.

Ya but the CArc warlock is very unique. I certainly never pictured warlocks like that before.

[Luckmann]

Ya but the CArc warlock is very unique. I certainly never pictured warlocks like that before.

I'd like to see something in-between the 3.5 and 4e Warlock, Pathfinderized. Sorta like how the Sorcerer choose bloodlines, but the Warlock would obviously choose pacts. There are so many things in the multiverse that is willing to grant you such awesome powers in exchange for one measly soul... :smallbiggrin:

[Bhaakon]

And yes, it has been explained to me that Complete Arcane isn't OGL, which is likely the reason Paizo have pussied out from creating a Warlock class, even though it in my opinion could be argued that Warlock is a rather generic, run-of-the-mill fantasy concept.


I thought the alchemist was the Pathfinder-ized Warlock. More-so than the gunslinger, at least.

[Luckmann]

I thought the alchemist was the Pathfinder-ized Warlock. More-so than the gunslinger, at least.

Doesn't feel very Warlock-y, to me.
But then, neither does the Gunslinger.

[Prime32]

Doesn't feel very Warlock-y, to me.
But then, neither does the Gunslinger.The bombs are similar to eldritch blasts.


And yes, it has been explained to me that Complete Arcane isn't OGL, which is likely the reason Paizo have pussied out from creating a Warlock class, even though it in my opinion could be argued that Warlock is a rather generic, run-of-the-mill fantasy concept.Just like they didn't create a duskblade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus)? :smallamused:

[Luckmann]

The bombs are similar to eldritch blasts.Maybe so, but what I said was that it doesn't feel very Warlock-y. :smalltongue:


Just like they didn't create a duskblade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus)? :smallamused:Yes, well, I think they'd have to stick a bit too close for comfort to Warlocks to do a proper knock-off under another name.

No idea what they'd call it, without it sounding stupid, either. :smallannoyed:

[Hazzardevil]

I'm pretty sure they can make a class called warlock, and they can make a class that uses invocations, but they can't make a class that is both.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'd like to see something in-between the 3.5 and 4e Warlock, Pathfinderized. Sorta like how the Sorcerer choose bloodlines, but the Warlock would obviously choose pacts. There are so many things in the multiverse that is willing to grant you such awesome powers in exchange for one measly soul... :smallbiggrin:

I see it now...

Celestial: Hey, we need another soul in the celestial army. I'll give you awesome powers. The price will be that your soul, with all the powers your had in life, will be conscripted into the celestial army, and you'll have to fight fiends a lot.

Human: well, it's better than selling my soul to devils. Deal!

[Yorrin]

I see it now...

Celestial: Hey, we need another soul in the celestial army. I'll give you awesome powers. The price will be that your soul, with all the powers your had in life, will be conscripted into the celestial army, and you'll have to fight fiends a lot.

Human: well, it's better than selling my soul to devils. Deal!

I like it. For added flavor do it with a Tiefling that gets shunned by his/her peers for the decision.

[CTrees]

I see it now...

Celestial: Hey, we need another soul in the celestial army. I'll give you awesome powers. The price will be that your soul, with all the powers your had in life, will be conscripted into the celestial army, and you'll have to fight fiends a lot.

Human: well, it's better than selling my soul to devils. Deal!

In an upcoming game I'm about to make my first (non-theoretical) Synthesist Summoner. The plan was "pretending to be an angel, including to the party," and this... I think I'm stealing it. I got approval to just go aasimar, but a half-elf that sold his soul to the upper planes could be a ton of fun to play (especially if he started out neutral...)

tl;dr - YOINK!

[Luckmann]

I see it now...

Celestial: Hey, we need another soul in the celestial army. I'll give you awesome powers. The price will be that your soul, with all the powers your had in life, will be conscripted into the celestial army, and you'll have to fight fiends a lot.

Human: well, it's better than selling my soul to devils. Deal!I like to think that the celestials, just like Devils & Demons, are sorta split between Lawful & Chaotic, and that only the most humongous buttholes amongst the lawful celestials actively engages in things like this, dealing in mortal souls, peddling them about, striking deals, signing contracts & making pacts.

Sure, it's all for the greater good, but there's no way in hell you're getting out of this thing without having your soul flayed at least twice. :smallbiggrin:

[Rixx]

To clarify:


Crafting Ammunition: You can craft bullets, pellets, and black powder for a cost in raw materials equal to 10% of the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you can craft alchemical cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the cartridge.

Also, the gunslinger looks like a really fun class. It may not be the most powerful thing ever, but I don't really equate power with fun.

[Hazzardevil]

To clarify:
Also, the gunslinger looks like a really fun class. It may not be the most powerful thing ever, but I don't really equate power with fun.

I think that at low levels, a gunslinger can out perform any other ranged combatant, the problem is, as you reach higher levels, guns are less useful than bows and ranged touch attacks.

Also, I got a hold of an ultimate combat PDF.
Heres my evaluation so far.

Classes seem the same as the playtest versions comparing tables, I haven't done a proper check o exact wording and probably won't.
I'm rather dissapointed with the gun based archetypes.
I like the Cavalier's, apart from it loses the mount, not good.
You also get a situtational rapid reload when you make a challenge and at level 8 gain improved critical with your guns and a few other things.
Paladin:
Gains profiency with guns, loses profiency in medium and heavy armour, not really a big deal since you will likely have good dex.
You can smite with your gun with a deed, I don't want to go into much detail here.
Also, you can't have a mount, you have to become bonded to your gun with a few strings attached, namely restrictions on how you can enchant it.

And lastly at higher levels you get some grit for a deed.

Wizard:
You can get 1 or 2 guns and can shoto ranged touch attacks out your guns.
If you only choose to have one gun, your ranged touch attacks do triple damage on a 20.
Down side?
Your guns explode on a 1, a 2 or a 20.
Not good and no way of changing it.
Edit:
Also, just to excite the final fantasy fans, fighters have a dragoon archetype. Just saying.

Edit, Edit:
And Magus gets several archetypes.

[Fax Celestis]

Crafting Ammunition: You can craft bullets, pellets, and black powder for a cost in raw materials equal to 10% of the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you can craft alchemical cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the cartridge.

Guess what Pathfinder didn't fix?

[Hazzardevil]

Guess what Pathfinder didn't fix?

You still need a caster level for alchemy? That's bull****!

[Starbuck_II]

Guess what Pathfinder didn't fix?

Where is that listed in Pathfinder?
The craft skill doesn't say that: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft

But yeah, you could use lousy reload times by buying cheap ammo or bleeding gp by crafting 1/2 cost paper cartiridges.

[Reverent-One]

Hmm, I don't see that restriction anywhere in the Craft (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft) entry.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

[Hazzardevil]

Hmm, I don't see that restriction anywhere in the Craft (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft) entry.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

I was taking a random guess, it was like that in 3.5, I think it is just an error on Paizo's part seeing as it would make more sense for it to be weaponsmithing to make more bullets.

[Bhaakon]

Your guns explode on a 1, a 2 or a 20.

Only if it's broken (and I think it's only a 1 to hit or 20 save). But yeah, spellslinger is a cool idea, but the drawbacks are prohibitive.

[Reverent-One]

I was taking a random guess, it was like that in 3.5, I think it is just an error on Paizo's part seeing as it would make more sense for it to be weaponsmithing to make more bullets.

You only need Craft(Alchemy) if you're making alchemical cartridges though, so that doesn't really seem to be a problem.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

And now I've got the book! Awesome!

[Bhaakon]

You only need Craft(Alchemy) if you're making alchemical cartridges though, so that doesn't really seem to be a problem.

Alchemical cartridges make loading faster. If you're not using them (or metal cartridges) there's no way to get multiple attacks per round.

[Reverent-One]

Alchemical cartridges make loading faster. If you're not using them (or metal cartridges) there's no way to get multiple attacks per round.

...And that's relevant to what I was saying, how?

[Bhaakon]

...And that's relevant to what I was saying, how?

Because alchemical cartridges are going to be the default ammo for most characters. "Alchemical" is a misnomer, it's just what Paizo is calling paper cartridges. They don't have to have any special properties.

[Curious]

The best Gunslinger in this book is the Paladin. No joke. Take the Holy gun archetype, and then get the Signature Deed feat for your smiting shot. Now, as long as you have grit, all your shots are smites. Best combined with a 1-level dip in Mysterious Stranger at first level to get your cha modifier to grit instead of wis.

[Reverent-One]

Because alchemical cartridges are going to be the default ammo for most characters. "Alchemical" is a misnomer, it's just what Paizo is calling paper cartridges. They don't have to have any special properties.

The Dragon's Breath, Entangling Shot, and Flare Cartridges would beg to differ. EDIT: I see you said that they don't have to have special properties, which is correct. It still doesn't make the name a misnomer, since 4 out of the 5 do have special alchemical type properties, and the fifth is a made out of special material compared to a normal cartridge and is the base form of the other 4.

[Starbuck_II]

The Dragon's Breath, Entangling Shot, and Flare Cartridges would beg to differ. EDIT: I see you said that they don't have to have special properties, which is correct. It still doesn't make the name a misnomer, since 4 out of the 5 do have special alchemical type properties, and the fifth is a made out of special material compared to a normal cartridge and is the base form of the other 4.

Most of the other ones only work with 2 handed guns (and dragon pistol). Blunderbuss can use entangling shot to good useage.
Dragon breath sucks because it doubles your misfire chance. If either of the 2d6 fire damage is a 1 when rolled, you misfired.

Say you are using blunderbuss (Misfire 1-2) using Dragon's breath (only Nat 1 but you roll twice) so if you roll a misfire on each die of 1d6 you missed.

It is easier to roll a 1 when rolling 2d6 dice than a 1 or 2 on a D20.

[Reverent-One]

Most of the other ones only work with 2 handed guns (and dragon pistol). Blunderbuss can use entangling shot to good useage.
Dragon breath sucks because it doubles your misfire chance. If either of the 2d6 fire damage is a 1 when rolled, you misfired.

Say you are using blunderbuss (Misfire 1-2) using Dragon's breath (only Nat 1 but you roll twice) so if you roll a misfire on each die of 1d6 you missed.

It is easier to roll a 1 when rolling 2d6 dice than a 1 or 2 on a D20.

Again, I feel the need to ask for the relevance of this line of discussion. I was talking about the creation of the cartridges and why they deserve (or don't deserve) to be called Alchemical cartridges, not their effectiveness or lack thereof. Granted, this is still relevant information for this thread and useful for people without the book or pdf, I just don't get why you quoted me.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Why is it that it seems like every time a new Pathfinder book comes out the things it offers get torn apart as not good enough and how none of the core problems with Pathfinder/3.5 have been fixed and whatnot? Everything I've seen in both Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic look incredibly awesome, both mechanically and fluff-wise. What's wrong with it?