Building a leader of a group

[LorenzoVon]

Hi, I'm new here so I hope my thread is okay.
Anyway The general idea for my hero is the leader of the group,
He's also more than capable of doing damage and can be a little tankish.
He's human also.
The limitations I have is these : he's level 6, has 13 K GP and can't have any home-brew stuff, only official stuff from the books.
The leader is religious, very charismatic, and knows how to ride a horse.
He's lawful good and doesn't handle magic very well, he relies on the sword in his hand and the horse below him.
My idea is this 5 levels in paladin (has to be paladin) and 1 level knight and then maximize knight.
I have only decided to pick the leadership feat, I haven't decided on any other feats, but I narrowed it down to 4 categories, feats that improve my mounted charge, or my riding in general, or somehow improve my chances of hitting, or his smite.
Skills I can handle myself so no need for help there.
equipment wise I was thinking of this:
Longsword +1
Full plate + 1
Lance - what good mounted charger will I be without one?
and a noble pennon - A banner that improves my smite, knights challenge, and upon activation my saves by a good amount.
my party consists of 8 people, I don't know what my dm has planned yet since he won't tell me also, we're playing the 3.5 version of d&d.
my dm is going with the usual 25 points score for abilities but with a twist that all of them are starting from 8 and not 10, I was thinking of
STR - 14
DEX - 10
CON - 10
INT - 10
WIS - 11
CHAR - 16

any suggestions, thoughts, improvements?
what type of gear do I need for horse riding and fighting with a horse?
I never built a PC with a horse.

[Nerdynick]

Well, first thing I'd suggest with any martial character, pick up Martial Study from Tome of Battle. It helps a lot with scaling. You could try one of the White Raven maneuvers, which are essentially "I'm good at tactics", so they represent party leader well. Also, theres a few of them that provide significant buffs to charging (for the initiator and, to a lesser extent, his allies)

[Dragon Star]

Welcome to Giantitp!

As for your character, with con that low you can't be that great a tank. I don't have the PHB II with me right now, but unless Knight relies heavily on Cha, you should lower it. With such a low point buy, I think it would be better to go completely tanky, or play a bard. They make better leaders.

[LorenzoVon]

After reading a bit of the tomb of battle, it seems I have to level up as a crusader in order to get a white raven maneuvers, perhaps I didn't understand it properly, but is that true?

[ImperatorK]

Play a Crusader. It's better then Pal and Knight. Optionally take two levels of Pal for Divine Grace.
EDIT: Martial Study is a feat that allows you to take one maneuver. Better take Crusader 6. Or Crusader 4/Pal 2. Continue Crusader.

[Bovine Colonel]

It should be noted that Tome of Battle is probably the single most base-breaking book in the history of DnD 3.5. I'm personally in favour of it, but I'm not your GM.

[ImperatorK]

Base-breaking? :smallconfused:

[Bovine Colonel]

I'd give you a TV Tropes link but I'm posting on a Kindle.

[ImperatorK]

Is this what you're talking about? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrokenBase)

[Soranar]

The limitations I have is these : he's level 6, has 13 K GP and can't have any home-brew stuff, only official stuff from the books.

STR - 14
DEX - 10
CON - 10
INT - 10
WIS - 11
CHAR - 16

any suggestions, thoughts, improvements?
what type of gear do I need for horse riding and fighting with a horse?
I never built a PC with a horse.

-Ok, paladin is an ok class at low levels it gives you most of it's abilities so no changes there.

-Your DM allowed leadership? (potentially the most broken feat in the game, especially on a high charisma character)

-Knight is a terrible class, it's just not worth it. I'd drop it altogether and take Cavalier levels instead (a Prestige class especially designed for a mounted combatant, it also progresses your mount's abilities just like a paladin would). You can't take it before level 9 though (requires +8 BAB).

-You can take feats to use white raven maneuvers but it's more efficient to take a level of crusader instead. However, the way initiator level works (kinda like your spellcasting level but instead it determines which maneuvers you can use) you get 1/2 your non initiator level class + you initiator level classes. (say you're a paladin 8, crusader 1= you get 4 (half of 8) + 1 so you access maneuvers like a Crusader level 5. This is actually a very good breakoff point for a dip since level 3 maneuvers are very useful. Crusaders also have the best recovery system.

With all of this in mind, here's the changes I'd make :

STATS (25 pts buy)

STR 14
DEX 8 (you won't get much of a bonus in fullplate anyway, dump)
CON 14
INT 8 (dump, you get an extra skillpoint from being human, 8 will do)
WIS 8 (dump, you won't be casting spells)
CHA 17 (main stat)

alternate class features (paladin)

-you can trade remove disease for shatterspell (like greater dispel centered on a creature you hit, the caster level is = to a wizard of the same level as your paladin levels)

This can be found in the Champion of Valor book.

-you can trade your spellcasting for bonus feats from a restricted list (you gian a feat at level 4, 8, 11 and 14) can be found in complete champion

Progression
1 Paladin Leadership, power attack
2 Paladin
3 Paladin mounted combat
4 Paladin bonus feat: ride-by attack
5 Paladin
6 Paladin spirited charge
7 Paladin
8 Paladin bonus feat: Divine might
9 Crusader Weapon focus: lance (required for cavalier)
10+ Cavalier (from complete warrior)

On stances:

-white raven tactics is only useful if your own initiative bonus is high (yours won't be) so don't take it

Here's a list of the maneuver and stances I'd pick (not that many as you only know 5)

White raven
-leading the attack
-battleleader's charge (maneuver, +10 damage on a charge)

Devoted spirit
-foehammer (ignore DR and add 2d6 damage on a melee attack)
-revitalizing strike (hit something, you or an ally heals 3d6 + your initiator level, which would be 5 at level 9)
-thicket of blades (opponents can,t 5 step away from you without giving you an AoO) (stance)

If your game gets that high, you'll want to take another level of crusader eventually (level 18) to learn level 6 maneuver and stances (you can also use the feat martial study to earn more without taking crusader levels).

Cavalier will make your charges devastating and you can take the feat Dragon mount to get a flying (and really powerful) mount at higher levels.

With leadership I suggest you get a cohort to do the dirty work (a role not covered by your companions like disarming traps, buffing, healing or such).

[vampire2948]

Hey Lorenzo.

Take a look at this : Sublime Marshal (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528454/Sublime_Way_Variant_Marshal,_ala_Tempest_Stormwind )

Take the Crusade Commander and roleplay as a Paladin. And bam - You're a holy leader, with martial ability and auras to buff your allies.
The class is a little weaker than the ToB classes, I think, having played it myself.

Hopefully homebrew is allowed in your campaign and your DM likes it.

[LorenzoVon]

My dm is the one that told me to take leadership :smallwink:
I think I will try to do what Soranar suggested but I'll swap to crusader from the 6th level and then Switch to cavalier, Now I just need to figure out how to spend that money.
Just one thing, leadership has a limitation of level 6 and I can't pick it from level 1
if someone could explain a bit better on what bonuses I can get if I swap out spells with the paladin it would be great

[marcielle]

He probably told you to take leadership cos Paladin and Knight are Tier 5. They can do NOTHING better than another class can do.Cleric-> better Holy melee(though a bit of a waste if you are taking that role) and Crusader->Better tank. That's the only logical reason I can concieve a DM actually SUGGESTING leadership. Most players have to BEG for that feat. And even then, usually with some restrictions. If you wanna play a Holy warrior, you do not really have to be a paladin. Just roleplay a niceguy. Like how Roy is just a fighter but probably higher up on the Lawful Good scale than Miko. However, if you are set on the whole Paladin thing, I suggest getting a wand of CLW early. You can use it without UMD since you have access to the spell. Trust me, you are gonna want A LOT of healing with your build.

[Acanous]

Paladin is actually not a bad class. It has two really good abilities- Divine Grace and Mount. The Mount is, by RAW, better than a Druid's animal companion and can be one heck of a monster in it's own right.
the problem with Paladins is that they are very, very MAD, and are one-trick ponies besides.

You CAN, however, be very good at your one trick.
Most paladins take some variant of Ubercharger build or go for Tome of Battle dips. Paladin Casters can actually work pretty well if you go into Sublime Chord/Virtuoso for the casting increase. It's bizzarre and rarely seen, but would make you almost exclusively Charisma-based.

[Coidzor]

So, if you wanna look into an analysis of the mechanics of actually being a leader in D&D land, JaronK did an analysis you can view here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3065.0).

Should hopefully prove interesting, even if it's not exactly going over the sort of scenarios that are going to be most relevant to building a character for play in a standard group.

Personally I favor Bard + Heartfire Fanner for making a leader archetype in my head, especially since if you start at a high enough level (though in this case 5th level is a little too early to get it up), you can end up with an animal companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bard)as well as full bardic music with the only loss being bardic knowledge (or anything you'd have traded it for, like bardic knack). Combine that with a wild cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)& your own abilities to be not too shabby in a fight, and that's a fair bit of contribution in combat as well as having plenty of skills for the times one's out of combat.

But this does hinge upon dragon magazine material in the form of heartfire fanner. Warrior skald from one of the Forgotten Realms books, I think races of faerun would also work for getting inspire courage back on the chassis.



Alternatively, Cleric > PrC Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin)> Bone Knight (5 Nations, I believe, an Eberron book) + a bard cohort with the requiem feat can be a pretty nifty leader as well, though that sorta hinges upon one not having too much of a distaste for the undead.

[marcielle]

Now I have a picture in my head of a Paladin that smites evil with a banjo to the head:smallsmile:
KABONNNG

[zimmerwald1915]

So, if you wanna look into an analysis of the mechanics of actually being a leader in D&D land, JaronK did an analysis you can view here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3065.0).
Link is broken.

[Divide by Zero]

Link is broken.

Google to the rescue. (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BgHtZ-teKxgJ:brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D3065.0+http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D3065.0&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com)

[LorenzoVon]

I've shown my DM the crusader, he doesn't want me to use it, and I agree with him to be honest.
However I can use the magic items from tome of battle, and one particular item caught my eye: Blade of the last citadel, it seems like a good weapon
and it can give my hero new abilities, but is it worth the amount of money and time and minuses I take for it?
Last question: a person mentioned that the knight is a bad class to play in the thread, why is that?

[Coidzor]

I've shown my DM the crusader, he doesn't want me to use it, and I agree with him to be honest.

Why's that? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196983&page=30)

[Vandicus]

If possible could we know what the other members of the party will likely be playing? It'd help give us a feel for how powerful your character should be.

[LorenzoVon]

Well he just didn't like the abilities and they are quite strong and game changing for 1 person.
I only know the general classes, the classes are in different levels for better realism (it would be a bit odd for all 8 people to be at the exact level of expertise :p)
Rogue
Wizard
Ranger
Cleric
Sorcerer
Fighter
Barbarian level 6
he did however tell me that level 6 is around the middle
I also get a follower, A paladin level 5 that focuses on healing

[ImperatorK]

Realism. Lol.
Tell your DM that he doesn't know what he's doing.
And also tell him that you will drop Leadership and play a Crusader.

[Vandicus]

You're playing in a party with a cleric, a wizard, and a sorceror. If you play a paladin/knight I'm afraid you'll rapidly be overshadowed and feel impotent in fights.

[Optimator]

Paladin is one of the worst classes you can play in a 25 point-buy game.

[Bovine Colonel]

Well he just didn't like the abilities and they are quite strong and game changing for 1 person.

Quite frankly, nothing from ToB is as powerful as a well built caster. Tell your GM to look up the spells Divine Power, Righteous Might, Polymorph, Glitterdust, Cloudkill...heck, even Color Spray ends battles ay level 1.

And about the levels issue, that's a great way for lower level players not to enjoy the game as much as higher level players, who are more capable in combat, have access to better spels, have more out of combat utility...

Another thing: a healer costs 750 gp and has 50 charges.

[Morph Bark]

You're playing in a party with a cleric, a wizard, and a sorceror. If you play a paladin/knight I'm afraid you'll rapidly be overshadowed and feel impotent in fights.

That highly depends on how optimized they will be and how optimized his Paladin or Knight would be (though I'd suggest dumping Knight, maybe take the Goad feat, and so on).