Bardic Weapons [3.5, PEACH]

[MesiDoomstalker]

Ok so I came up with this idea for a bard weapon/instrument but I’m having trouble balancing it and pricing it.
The basic premise is that each time a bard uses an ability that uses a Bardic Music use, the instrument gets a charge. Then as a standard action, you can do a perform check and spend X amount of charges to use an ability of the instrument. I currently have 2 ideas but I’d welcome more.

One charge to use Shocking Grasp. More turns into a slightly nerfed Lightning Bolt.
Shout and Greater Shout but not sure how many charges to activate either.
The perform check would determine the caster level of the “spells” based on a formula. I want something where on an average roll (10) and a Charisma of 10 (+0 modifier) would be result in caster level equal to your ranks.

Personally, I think unless the number of charges to use the spells would be fairly large, this may become overpowered since the CL would be dependent on your perform check, which of course is vital to Bards. I had another thought that a simple perform check can make a charge so it doesn't force you to use your resources to become offensive.

Any suggestions or help would be much appreciated.

[Elegonn]

I think as a rule of thumb:
1st Level Spell: 1 Charge
2nd Level Spell: 3 Charges
3th Level Spell: 7 Charges
4th Level Spell: 13 Charges

Although 4th level spells cost high, you get a benefit for the music, as icing on the cake this should not be too good:smallfrown:

[eftexar]

You could just require a single perform check for each such item at the start of the day. Then based off of a chart it would grant a certain number of charges.

Another idea (this one would cut out charges entirely) is to require a perform check based on the effects level and times used that day. For example a sorcerer uses shocking grasp (a 1st levels spell). You would need to make a perform DC of 15 + twice the level of the spell/effects level + 2 per times that particular spell was used that day (or, if you really want to limit its use, per each time the bardic weapon was used, instead).

[Elegonn]

You could just require a single perform check for each such item at the start of the day. Then based off of a chart it would grant a certain number of charges.

Another idea (this one would cut out charges entirely) is to require a perform check based on the effects level and times used that day. For example a sorcerer uses shocking grasp (a 1st levels spell). You would need to make a perform DC of 15 + twice the level of the spell/effects level + 2 per times that particular spell was used that day (or, if you really want to limit its use, per each time the bardic weapon was used, instead).

A ninth level spell would have a DC or 33, way to low. Imagine a bard, 24 charisma, skill focus (perform), and 23 ranks. +33 to perform. That would make them better than a wizard, sorcerer, or cleric.

[eftexar]

Alright, up the DC to 15 + thrice the spell level.

[MesiDoomstalker]

The idea is 1 or 2 thematically linked spells are stored/enchanted/whatever in the instrument and using a charge/perform check/whatever allows you to use such an effect. The main reason I was looking at this is Bards have frustratingly few direct offensive capabilities. I know my DM would never allow me to have Lyre of Shapechange. A Lyre of Meteor Swarm would be pushing it even then.

I was thinking something like this:

Mandolin of Lightning

This masterwork mandolin is adorned with thunderclouds and lightning bolts for strings. Every cord sounds of rolling thunder.

Whenever you use a Bardic Music ability that requires a use of a Bardic Music use, this mandolin gains one charge per Bardic Music use used. Alternativly, you may make a Perform (Strings) check and gain charges equal to the check result divided by 10 (rounded down). These charges last for 1 hour.

As a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, you may make a Perform (Strings) check and expand a number of charges to activate a number of abilities.


By expending one charge, you may shock an nearby opponent. This functions just like a Shocking Grasp spell, except as noted below. You make a ranged touch attack with a maximum range of 5 feet and your caster level is equal to your perform check divided by 7 (rounded down).
By expending seven charges, you may send a bolt of lighting forward. This functions just like a Lightning Bolt spell, except as noted below. Your caster level is equal to your perform check divided by 7 (rounded down) and the range is equal to your 5 feet per caster level. The save DC is equal to 13+your Cha modifier.

Not sure how to price it but other than that, does this sound balanced?

[Girshtop]

Whenever you use a Bardic Music ability that requires a use of a Bardic Music use, this mandolin gains one charge per Bardic Music use used. Alternativly, you may make a Perform (Strings) check and gain charges equal to the check result divided by 10 (rounded down). These charges last for 1 hour.


How often do you use bardic music 7 times in an hour? Personally when I played a bard, I'd use it once or twice a battle, then a couple more the next encounter, hours later.

I think you should gain more than one charge per bardic music (maybe more charges depending on the type of bardic music used), and have them last until their expended. As long as the spells stored in the instrument aren't too powerful, I love the idea.

Also, will using the spells stored stop the concentration needed to use a bardic music?

[MesiDoomstalker]

How often do you use bardic music 7 times in an hour? Personally when I played a bard, I'd use it once or twice a battle, then a couple more the next encounter, hours later.

I think you should gain more than one charge per bardic music (maybe more charges depending on the type of bardic music used), and have them last until their expended. As long as the spells stored in the instrument aren't too powerful, I love the idea.

Also, will using the spells stored stop the concentration needed to use a bardic music?

I tossed around the idea of making the charges last 8 hours (an average adventuring day) but then you get issues with people just playing for several rounds in the morning and just having charges to spare. So either we cap the number of charges that can be stored, remove the ability to gain charges with a simple perform check (I'd rather not do this for the exact reason you stated), or we cap how many charges you can gain through perform checks alone. Personally, I like the last one.

About spells stored, the two ideas are at least somewhat thematic. The electric Mandolin is a emulation of a modern electric guitar in a psuedo-medival setting. The Shout and Greater Shout version (which I'm still stating out), would be much more thematically appropriate considering what a Bard is. Plus those are Bard spells so realistically they could make it with the appropriate crafting feat. If anybody has any other thematic spells and spell groupings (shouldn't be no more than 3 spells and nothing higher than 6th either) would be most appriciated.

EDIT: I would rather they don't intterupt concentration but I'm not very familiar with Bards and how they work. Can someone tell me how to do this wihout interrupting concentration on Bardic Music? I'm designing this for a Bard I will be playing and I nor no one I know has played a Bard so I don't know the inner workings.

[eftexar]

Why not, instead of exact charges, limit such an item to uses per day to any individual equal to their charisma modifier, and then add requirements so only the bard can use it?
You could then use the perform check to determine the level of the effect. For example lets say it deals a base of 1d4 electric damage on a successful check of 15. Maybe it deals an additional 1d4 electric damage per 5 you exceed the check. Of course I didn't balance the check, but it might work if you did.
In this way the perform check is still important, but is has limitations to uses per day. You could even not do uses per day and raise the perform check by 5 or so each time it is used.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Why not, instead of exact charges, limit such an item to uses per day to any individual equal to their charisma modifier, and then add requirements so only the bard can use it?
You could then use the perform check to determine the level of the effect. For example lets say it deals a base of 1d4 electric damage on a successful check of 15. Maybe it deals an additional 1d4 electric damage per 5 you exceed the check. Of course I didn't balance the check, but it might work if you did.
In this way the perform check is still important, but is has limitations to uses per day. You could even not do uses per day and raise the perform check by 5 or so each time it is used.

That seems like a more reliable idea. Unfortunatly, this is supposed to be a replacment with a weapon for a Bard. Instead of a rapier, he can shock you with his mandolin. I guess I should stop emulation spells that scale and give it static damage, non-scaling damage. Then you can just spam little bolts until the Troglodike stops bugging the funny singing man.

[Girshtop]

Unfortunatly, this is supposed to be a replacment with a weapon for a Bard. Instead of a rapier, he can shock you with his mandolin. I guess I should stop emulation spells that scale and give it static damage, non-scaling damage.

If it's supposed to be a complete replacement for a weapon, then I would suggest making it viable to be used every turn, and more on par with regular weapon damage. If you do it this way, you could still collect charges, and maybe every 3rd use (or after every bardic music) it gives a bit more of a shock (like an extra 1d6, or an added effect, like shocking touch).

[MesiDoomstalker]

If it's supposed to be a complete replacement for a weapon, then I would suggest making it viable to be used every turn, and more on par with regular weapon damage. If you do it this way, you could still collect charges, and maybe every 3rd use (or after every bardic music) it gives a bit more of a shock (like an extra 1d6, or an added effect, like shocking touch).

This is indeed what I intended but then got caught up in a theoritical scenario that would only work if the instruments mimiced spells. Any suggestions on how to make it on par with weapons?

[eftexar]

You could just make it function exactly as a weapon. Here is an example I came up with for a weapon:
Electric Guitar, Exotic Two Handed Weapon, deals 1d6 + charisma modifier sonic damage with a 19/x2 critical, and a range of 30ft (may strike adjacent targets) requiring a successful ranged touch attack to hit.
The weapon is compatible with all weapon feats as if it were a ranged weapon.
If the weapon is enchanted with an effect (or effects) that can target foes struck with a ranged attack (as if it were a bow) it only affects a target successfully damaged by the sonic effect.
Additionally three times per day it's wielder may make a perform (string instrument) check against a DC of 20. A successful check enhances the damage dealt by 1d6, plus an additional point of damage per 5 you exceed that check.
If used as an improvised melee weapon the penalty is reduced by 2 and the electric guitar is treated as a club.
The weapons base capabilities may be not be disenchanted, but may be suppressed by antimagic or similar effects (note that it may still be used as an improvised weapon in antimagic).

[MesiDoomstalker]

You could just make it function exactly as a weapon. Here is an example I came up with for a weapon:
Electric Guitar, Exotic Two Handed Weapon, deals 1d6 + charisma modifier sonic damage with a 19/x2 critical, and a range of 30ft (may strike adjacent targets) requiring a successful ranged touch attack to hit.
The weapon is compatible with all weapon feats as if it were a ranged weapon.
If the weapon is enchanted with an effect (or effects) that can target foes struck with a ranged attack (as if it were a bow) it only affects a target successfully damaged by the sonic effect.
Additionally three times per day it's wielder may make a perform (string instrument) check against a DC of 20. A successful check enhances the damage dealt by 1d6, plus an additional point of damage per 5 you exceed that check.
If used as an improvised melee weapon the penalty is reduced by 2 and the electric guitar is treated as a club.
The weapons base capabilities may be not be disenchanted, but may be suppressed by antimagic or similar effects (note that it may still be used as an improvised weapon in antimagic).

Hmmmm, I would say that Bard's have proficiency with them, otherwise it would make no sense. But I don't think we could make a weapon that does Sonic damage and NOT have it negated by anti-magic. Though I do like adding Cha to damage. How about a feat to go with it.

Power Cords

Requirements: Proficiency with Bardic Weapons, Cha 17

Benefit: While using a Bardic Weapon, you may apply 1.5 of your Cha modifier to damage rolls.

Normal: You normally only apply your Cha to damage rolls when using a Bardic Weapon.

[Strormer]

When I wanted Bards to have a bit more combat staying power I created The Axe. It was a +3 Skillful Thundering Greataxe that had the unique property that it could be played like a guitar and used to attack at the same time, allowing Bards to attack with their Greataxe and still continuously play their Bardic Music. Then I built a bard around surviving in a fight, tossed in a few Streetfighter levels, and magically boosted his HP. A combat friendly Bard can't just be created with a weapon, it has to be a full build.

[MesiDoomstalker]

When I wanted Bards to have a bit more combat staying power I created The Axe. It was a +3 Skillful Thundering Greataxe that had the unique property that it could be played like a guitar and used to attack at the same time, allowing Bards to attack with their Greataxe and still continuously play their Bardic Music. Then I built a bard around surviving in a fight, tossed in a few Streetfighter levels, and magically boosted his HP. A combat friendly Bard can't just be created with a weapon, it has to be a full build.

I wasn't trying to make a combat friendly Bard. I was trying to give a Bard a weapon that wasn't a weapon. My goal wasn't to make Bard a direct threat, I was trying to make an item that could attack without a real weapon.