The Paramount Tank

[BinaryMage]

Just a bit of a thought experiment here. What is the best way to build a tank?
I was thinking along the lines of a Cha-focused build, taking two levels of paladin to get Divine Grace, and taking the Walker in the Waster PrC (Sandstorm) to get Cha replaced with Con for hitpoints (along with some other great PrC features), and then abusing as many of the things in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) list as possible. Does that seem okay? Do you have any particular build to recommend? (And I'm not looking for Pun-Pun)

[Gavinfoxx]

How can spells be rendered useless somehow within the rules? Please, come up with a way that primary casters have not already solved. I am very interested in hearing about how you figured this out; I don't think anyone else has!

[Tvtyrant]

How can spells be rendered useless somehow within the rules? Please, come up with a way that primary casters have not already solved. I am very interested in hearing about how you figured this out; I don't think anyone else has!

At moderate levels this isn't too hard; AA with Antimagic field arrows for instance. Once you get Genesis the games over :P

[BinaryMage]

How can spells be rendered useless somehow within the rules? Please, come up with a way that primary casters have not already solved. I am very interested in hearing about how you figured this out; I don't think anyone else has!

I meant situationally, not universally. For example, what if you're fighting a creature that is immune to magic, has something like antimagic field activated, or has some artifact that makes most casters severely limited in options?

[sonofzeal]

How does the "Tank" gain and control aggro? What does he do that the lvl 1 spell "Blockade" can't also do?

[Tvtyrant]

I think the best "Tank" is a Bear Warrior on a Barbarian chasis for high HD, Con and attack.

[Greenish]

Crusader with a reach weapon. There's your tank, though I do find the premise somewhat questionable.

[BinaryMage]

How does the "Tank" gain and control aggro? What does he do that the lvl 1 spell "Blockade" can't also do?

My idea was to have a tank to assist the casters. The idea would be not so much to control aggro as to remove obstacles from the primary casters way. For example, destroying a artifact granting the enemy some sort of spell immunity. And anyway, many of the monsters you generally fight will target the tank if he/she's attacking them.

I'm not looking for any sort of DPR build. I want something that can take the maximum possible amount of damage.

[sonofzeal]

My idea was to have a tank to assist the casters. The idea would be not so much to control aggro as to remove obstacles from the primary casters way. For example, destroying a artifact granting the enemy some sort of spell immunity.

I'm not looking for any sort of DPR build. I want something that can take the maximum possible amount of damage.
That sounds like a job best performed by another caster, or a summon, or a Dominate'd minion.

[Greenish]

For example, destroying a artifact granting the enemy some sort of spell immunity.Non-casters can't destroy artifacts (unless Mt. Doom happens to be conveniently nearby).

[BinaryMage]

That sounds like a job best performed by another caster, or a summon, or a Dominate'd minion.

Maybe so. I was just wondering if this idea was feasible. The idea would be to build a character that can take much more damage than a minion, summon, or other caster.


Non-casters can't destroy artifacts (unless Mt. Doom happens to be conveniently nearby).

Forgot about that. I was thinking of a particular magic item in a certain campaign (Savage Tide) that acted as a large-radius antimagic field around the item and could be destroyed by hitpoint damage, but I guess that wasn't an artifact, just a magic item.

[Zaq]

I think your issue is that you presented your idea rather . . . well, you presented it in a way that makes it very easy to focus on things other than what you're really getting at. I know I was all set to type up a post full of "when would a caster's options be limited in ways that a tank's options wouldn't?" and that sort of thing.

Anyway, CHA-stacker is a perfectly reasonable character.

[BinaryMage]

I think your issue is that you presented your idea rather . . . well, you presented it in a way that makes it very easy to focus on things other than what you're really getting at. I know I was all set to type up a post full of "when would a caster's options be limited in ways that a tank's options wouldn't?" and that sort of thing.

Anyway, CHA-stacker is a perfectly reasonable character.

Thanks for the feedback. Re-reading my original post, you're right, and I edited it to hopefully make my point clearer. I just thought it might be fun to min/max a tank, because I'm a bit tired of min/maxing casters.

[sonofzeal]

Maybe so. I was just wondering if this idea was feasible. The idea would be to build a character that can take much more damage than a minion, summon, or other caster.
Summon/minions can be replaced, and you can have several at the same time. Look up the Emerald Legion for a way to make minions who can also soak much more damage than any character.

[Seerow]

Goad is a feat that makes enemies make a saving throw or be forced to attack you. I'm pretty sure the save is charisma based, which fits well with your idea.

[BinaryMage]

Summon/minions can be replaced, and you can have several at the same time. Look up the Emerald Legion for a way to make minions who can also soak much more damage than any character.

I had not seen the Emerald Legion before. That's definitely impressive. You're probably right, this build doesn't make sense. I was just experimenting.


Goad is a feat that makes enemies make a saving throw or be forced to attack you. I'm pretty sure the save is charisma based, which fits well with your idea.

Thanks! That's a great idea.

[Gavinfoxx]

What creatures in the system are completely immune to magic? I can't really think of any. Even Golems surrounded by Antimagic Fields can be affected by LOTS of magic...

[BinaryMage]

What creatures in the system are completely immune to magic? I can't really think of any. Even Golems surrounded by Antimagic Fields can be affected by LOTS of magic...

Immediately, demiliches come to mind, though those are affected by three not very good spells. I'm sure there are others, though.

Edit: Oh, and arcane oozes. (MMIII)

[dextercorvia]

Immediately, demiliches come to mind, though those are affected by three not very good spells. I'm sure there are others, though.

Edit: Oh, and arcane oozes. (MMIII)

Orb of X will still take them out. As will, heavily metamagicked Hail of Stone. Immunity is just unbeatable SR.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think he's saying that Demiliches have some old style 3.0e grandfathered in total blanket immunity thing. Not Spell Immunity, Magic Immunity, which is different, maybe??

[BinaryMage]

Orb of X will still take them out. As will, heavily metamagicked Hail of Stone. Immunity is just unbeatable SR.

Not a demilich. (See below)


I think he's saying that Demiliches have some old style 3.0e grandfathered in total blanket immunity thing. Not Spell Immunity, Magic Immunity, which is different, maybe??

Link (http://www.charles-reace.com/Hobbies/DnD_Monster_DB/index.php?id=16). In my opinion, by the description, this is, as you stated, not just infinite SR, but an actual total immunity, excepting the spells stated.

[dextercorvia]

I'm fairly sure it doesn't matter. I'd have to see the ability to be sure, but no amount of immunity to magic matters if the stuff that is burning you is non-magical.

Edit: Yes, we're fine. They are immune to magical effects (assuming this didn't get updated in some conversion notes release). Orb of X and Hail of Stone use magic to produce non-magical effects. That is why they can operated in an AMF.

[BinaryMage]

I'm fairly sure it doesn't matter. I'd have to see the ability to be sure, but no amount of immunity to magic matters if the stuff that is burning you is non-magical.

If it's created by a spell effect, as the orbs are, and not summoned or something of the like, I think it counts as magical.

[dextercorvia]

If it's created by a spell effect, as the orbs are, and not summoned or something of the like, I think it counts as magical.

If it counted as magical, then you couldn't use it to penetrate an AMF.

[TroubleBrewing]

If it's created by a spell effect, as the orbs are, and not summoned or something of the like, I think it counts as magical.

Sure. But the rules think differently. :smallwink:

[dextercorvia]

If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

Here is the valid rules text. Instantaneous Creation spells are not magic after they are created.

[BinaryMage]

If it counted as magical, then you couldn't use it to penetrate an AMF.


Sure. But the rules think differently. :smallwink:

The Orb spells are so broken. :smallfurious:
You're correct, though.

[TroubleBrewing]

The Orb spells are so broken. :smallfurious:

At least they require a ranged touch attack. Hail of Stone is auto-hit, leaving it a much better candidate for metamagic cheese.

Fell Drain, anyone?

[BinaryMage]

At least they require a ranged touch attack. Hail of Stone is auto-hit, leaving it a much better candidate for metamagic cheese.

Fell Drain, anyone?

Yeah. But I digress. Now that we have determined, yet again, that primary casters are irrevocably and undeniably broken beyond repair, do you have any build suggestions for a tanky character? :smallsmile:

[dextercorvia]

At least they require a ranged touch attack. Hail of Stone is auto-hit, leaving it a much better candidate for metamagic cheese.

Fell Drain, anyone?

Normally, I wouldn't recommend that for something with Lich in the name, but I just checked the update booklet for the ELH. Demiliches are changed to Vermin, not undead anymore with the update to 3.5 -- so they aren't immune to negative levels.

[dextercorvia]

Yeah. But I digress. Now that we have determined, yet again, that primary casters are irrevocably and undeniably broken beyond repair, do you have any build suggestions for a tanky character? :smallsmile:

Somewhat ironically, I'm working on a caster that spends all day hanging out as a swarm. So long as the component creatures are small enough, you are immune to weapon damage. You are also immune to targeted spells and effects (which explicitly include things like Disintegration and thus the Orbs). That will soak a lot of attacks. The main vulnerabilities are Mind Affecting and Area Attacks.

[TroubleBrewing]

Demiliches are changed to Vermin, not undead anymore with the update to 3.5 -- so they aren't immune to negative levels.

Wow. So now THIS build can take out something almost twice its CR?


Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10 with the following feats:
Arcane Thesis (Enervation)
Maximize Spell
Empower Spell
Twin Spell
Split Ray
Invisible Spell
City Spell

Deals 16 + 4d2 negative levels to a single target, but can be divided as you wish, as a 4th-level spell (Enervation 4 + Maximize 1 + Empower 0 + Twin 1 + Split Ray 0 - Invisible 1 - City 1 = 4).

Chain Spell can be applied to mass-effect the entire enemy brigade, as a 5th-level spell.

Also, you can do this a second time in the same turn as a 6th-level spell (7th with Chain) by using Quicken.

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10 also gives you five bonus Metamagic feats (at 5, 6, 9, 12, and 15), which pays almost all the feat tax of this combo. You will have enough feats to do everything here, plus grab Fell Drain (which is now a +0 adjustment when on Enervation), and grab Fell Animate with Easy Metamagic (Fell Animate), which turns it into a net +0 adjustment on Enervation (+1 otherwise), and turns everything your energy draining spells successfully kill into zombies under your command.

TL;DR you can, at level 15, kill an entire room full of CR-appropriate enemies with a single Enervation, cast at its original level, who then rise to fight as your companions next turn.

(Thanks to Lonely Tylenol for an excellent, truly disturbing build.)

EDIT:
Yeah. But I digress. Now that we have determined, yet again, that primary casters are irrevocably and undeniably broken beyond repair, do you have any build suggestions for a tanky character? :smallsmile:

Sure! Build suggestion for a tank-style character: Full caster. Cleric would be my choice, but I imagine you can do it marvelously with Druid.

[dextercorvia]

Wow. So now THIS build can take out something almost twice its CR?



(Thanks to Lonely Tylenol for an excellent, truly disturbing build.)

No, because that uses Enervation for a seed, which is SR: Yes.

[TroubleBrewing]

Ahhhh. My mistakes are manifold today.

[BinaryMage]

Sure! Build suggestion for a tank-style character: Full caster. Cleric would be my choice, but I imagine you can do it marvelously with Druid.

I give up. :smallsigh:
That is a great build. And I am in no way suggesting that casters are inferior, in any way or situation, to non-casters. I was just trying to create a feasible non-caster tank.

[Slipperychicken]

The Frenzied Berserker can take unlimited damage while raging, but not CHA-focused, so might not be your cup of tea.


If you're willing to dabble in Pathfinder, the feat Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize) is pretty much aggro-in-a-can, especially for CHA-focused characters. Note that, if you hit the intimidate DC, it reads "the target must attempt to make a MELEE attack against you". There was a fix for this feat, and it fixed the DC and requirements, so the effect was obviously what the developers intended. You force archers with impenetrable cover to run out of hiding, mages fresh with spells at the ready to fly down into your reach, you force an uncooperative noble to jump over the table in the middle of a feast to... hit you with whatever they have on-hand, run into your threatened squares, to fight on your own terms. Locked down. Exactly what you've always dreamed of.

[BinaryMage]

The Frenzied Berserker can take unlimited damage while raging, but not CHA-focused, so might not be your cup of tea.


If you're willing to dabble in Pathfinder, the feat Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize) is pretty much aggro-in-a-can, especially for CHA-focused characters. Note that, if you hit the intimidate DC, it reads "the target must attempt to make a MELEE attack against you". There was a fix for this feat, and it fixed the DC and requirements, so the effect was obviously what the developers intended. You force archers with impenetrable cover to run out of hiding, mages fresh with spells at the ready to fly down into your reach, you force an uncooperative noble to jump over the table in the middle of a feast to... hit you with whatever they have on-hand, run into your threatened squares, to fight on your own terms. Locked down. Exactly what you've always dreamed of.

Wow! That seems almost broken, but definitely useful. Thank you, I'll include that in my build plan.

[dextercorvia]

For a non-caster tank, and all around fun character, I recommend Crusader. You can still take Goad, but it really doesn't help you unless your opponent is sentient and only has melee options.

[BinaryMage]

For a non-caster tank, and all around fun character, I recommend Crusader. You can still take Goad, but it really doesn't help you unless your opponent is sentient and only has melee options.

Most opponents are sentient, and isn't it impossible not to have some sort of melee attack unless you don't have a Strength score?

[TroubleBrewing]

Most opponents are sentient, and isn't it impossible not to have some sort of melee attack unless you don't have a Strength score?

Incorporeal Undead would beg to differ.

[Essence_of_War]

I'm not looking for any sort of DPR build. I want something that can take the maximum possible amount of damage.

It is REALLY hard to kill a Crusader in melee combat with hp damage.

[BinaryMage]

Incorporeal Undead would beg to differ.

They don't have Strength scores.



It is REALLY hard to kill a Crusader in melee combat with hp damage.

Wow, bold and all caps? :smallbiggrin:
I will certainly consider Crusader then.

[Slipperychicken]

Wow! That seems almost broken, but definitely useful. Thank you, I'll include that in my build plan.

Just be sure to run it by your DM beforehand; there are some legitimate issues he might have with it. Also, it comes from the Pathfinder RPG (not 3.5, but the idea was to pick up the 3.5 market after Wizards dropped it for 4E) so see if he's cool with that too.

[BinaryMage]

Just be sure to run it by your DM beforehand; there are some legitimate issues he might have with it. Also, it comes from the Pathfinder RPG (not 3.5, but the idea was to pick up the 3.5 market after Wizards dropped it for 4E) so see if he's cool with that too.

Yeah. I'm don't have a specific game I'm planning to play this in; it was just a build idea. Pathfinder should really be called 3.5+, because that's essentially what it is.

[Gavinfoxx]

There's also Trailblazer. I like Trailblazer better than Pathfinder. Though one could definitely steal ideas from BOTH, and from original 3.5e.

[BinaryMage]

There's also Trailblazer. I like Trailblazer better than Pathfinder. Though one could definitely steal ideas from BOTH, and from original 3.5e.

I'm not very familiar with Trailblazer, but it looks interesting.

[Essence_of_War]

Wow, bold and all caps?

They're fun, and they're that hard to kill.

If any step in your plan to kill a Crusader involves trading* full attacks with him, your plan likely needs revision.




*I chose "trading" carefully. I understand that full attacking a crusader when he is stunned, nauseated, pinned, paralyzed etc can be quite profitable :smalltongue:

[BinaryMage]

They're fun, and they're that hard to kill.

If any step in your plan to kill a Crusader involves trading* full attacks with him, your plan likely needs revision.




*I chose "trading" carefully. I understand that full attacking a crusader when he is stunned, nauseated, pinned, paralyzed etc can be quite profitable :smalltongue:

I would be surprised if even a well built crusader could have a chance against a primary caster, but melee-wise the class certainly seems powerful.

[Essence_of_War]

Against a primary caster that is being intelligently played, you actually can't win.

You just can't keep up with reality shaping power.

However, I assure you that those primary caster friends would be happy to have you around to help control the battlefield. Especially at early levels when they're more squishy than phenomenally-cosmically-powerful.

[BinaryMage]

Against a primary caster that is being intelligently played, you actually can't win.

You just can't keep up with reality shaping power.

However, I assure you that those primary caster friends would be happy to have you around to help control the battlefield. Especially at early levels when they're more squishy than phenomenally-cosmically-powerful.

Yeah, definitely. This perfectly fits my character concept. Thank you!

[Essence_of_War]

There is a handbook for crusaders in my sig that can give you lots of useful pointers on feats, maneuver selection, prestige classes, and dips into other classes to customize the Crusader chassis to do precisely what you want it to do. See if that is useful also! :smallsmile:

[Midnight_v]

Funny in one of these threads I made a joke, version of a "tank" handbook. The more I think about it the more I'm thinking it was really very accurate.

The only thing about tanking is you do need a something to deal with magic.
Though you can do the sticky thing pretty well.

Tanking:
Combat Reflexes
Standstill
Thicket of blades.
Ways to not die.
Each bit of reach makes you better.

Issues:
Magic.
Critters a generally stronger than players.
Magic.
You have to be really dangerous for when the critters ignore you.

Solutions:
Be a gish?
Custom items of Anti-magic? (I know there's one from a faerun book. I've never seen it used in a game. Could be different where your at)
Imperious Command Tricks: Works till mindblank is up.
A way to obscure vision this would give the party untargetability, and I've been looking for a permanent item of such a thing.

All that being said....

When I think about it... I kinda appears the best tank is likely the RubyKNight Vindicator. I think they get antimagic field on thier list and manuevers ignore that mostly.(even the healing ones)

[dextercorvia]

Most opponents are sentient, and isn't it impossible not to have some sort of melee attack unless you don't have a Strength score?

Goad doesn't force them to make a melee attack against you. It just prevents them from making a melee attack on anyone but you (if they fail the save). They are free to make ranged attacks, cast spells, move out of LoE/S whichever means that goad doesn't affect them anymore, etc.

[BinaryMage]

Goad doesn't force them to make a melee attack against you. It just prevents them from making a melee attack on anyone but you (if they fail the save). They are free to make ranged attacks, cast spells, move out of LoE/S whichever means that goad doesn't affect them anymore, etc.

From the Pathfinder SRD:



Intimidate: The creature flies into a rage. On its next turn, the target must attempt to make a melee attack against you. The effect ends if the creature is prevented from reaching you or attempting to do so would harm it (for example, if you are on the other side of a chasm or a wall of fire). If it cannot reach you on its turn, you may make the check again as an immediate action to extend the effect for 1 round (but cannot extend it thereafter). The effect ends as soon as the creature makes a melee attack against you. Once you have targeted a creature with this ability, you cannot target it again for 1 day.


The target must attempt to make a melee attack against you. That doesn't seem like it allows them so do something else. :smallwink:

[dextercorvia]

From the Pathfinder SRD:



The target must attempt to make a melee attack against you. That doesn't seem like it allows them so do something else. :smallwink:

I was discussing the Goad feat mentioned on page 1. This isn't a PF feat. It occurs in MH, RoS, and CAdv. What are you talking about? Did you ever mention that you were playing PF?

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

I want something that can take the maximum possible amount of damage.Welcome to the boards. I assume you mean non-ascended and after the dirty handbook fixes. In that case you can find my record-holding maximum hp brute-force-style build on my

[BinaryMage]

I was discussing the Goad feat mentioned on page 1. This isn't a PF feat. It occurs in MH, RoS, and CAdv. What are you talking about? Did you ever mention that you were playing PF?

Oh, I'm sorry. Totally misread your post.
I was talking about Antagonize, which was the previous conversation subject, but not what you were talking about. My bad. Antagonize does force a melee attack, I just got confused.



Welcome to the boards. I assume you mean non-ascended and after the dirty handbook fixes. In that case you can find my record-holding maximum hp brute-force-style build on my

On your...?

[dextercorvia]

Oh, I'm sorry. Totally misread your post.
I was talking about Antagonize, which was the previous conversation subject, but not what you were talking about. My bad. Antagonize does force a melee attack, I just got confused.




On your...?

Meet PBMC. He has a tendency not to finish his posts. He probably means a thread over at Brilliant Gameologists. He does a lot of TO builds.

Edit: In this case, I think it is linked in his sig.

[BinaryMage]

Meet PBMC. He has a tendency not to finish his posts. He probably means a thread over at Brilliant Gameologists. He does a lot of TO builds.

Edit: In this case, I think it is linked in his sig.

Well, the thing linked in his sig is an Early Entry Handbook. Maybe that relates to tank optimization, but I don't see how...

[Endarire]

Consider this: A well-prepared caster can have I Win ready to cast from every spell level. Sometimes these spells offer saves. Sometimes, you just die.

The best way to survive this is to either avoid the fight or win initiative and outdo the caster.

Also, until about level 7, martial adepts are quite spiffy. Plenty of options without casting a spell.

If you want to 'tank' through massive damage, try Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood:_A_Tale_of_38;_Guide_to_th e_3.5_Dragoon).

[ILM]

Goad is a feat that makes enemies make a saving throw or be forced to attack you. I'm pretty sure the save is charisma based, which fits well with your idea.
Yeah, but:

[...]f it threatens you and has line of sight to you, it must make a Will saving throw. [...] If the opponent fails its save, you are the only creature it can make melee attacks against during this turn.
So it's restricted to non-casters that you can get to. Tall order sometimes.

However, you have the Mindless Rage spell in SpC: 2nd level sorc/wiz/bard, enchantment and mind-affecting. On a failed will save, the target can do nothing else than attack you in melee or move towards you if it can't attack.

[BinaryMage]

Yeah, but:

So it's restricted to non-casters that you can get to. Tall order sometimes.

However, you have the Mindless Rage spell in SpC: 2nd level sorc/wiz/bard, enchantment and mind-affecting. On a failed will save, the target can do nothing else than attack you in melee or move towards you if it can't attack.

That's the problem, though. First of all, you need another character or at least another standard action to cast it, and then there's a save. Now, the PF feat Antagonize works much, much better, but only if you're playing Pathfinder.

[dextercorvia]

That's the problem, though. First of all, you need another character or at least another standard action to cast it, and then there's a save. Now, the PF feat Antagonize works much, much better, but only if you're playing Pathfinder.

Note that Antagonize also requires a standard action to begin only works for a maximum of two rounds (costing you an immediate action), and only until they make a single melee attack against you (or are prevented from reaching you). Then they are free to do whatever they want for 24 hours. It is still powerful for a melee feat, and intimidate is a notoriously easy skill to pump. Just don't rely on it as your only source of Aggro.

[SleepyShadow]

Alright, here's a quite successful tank character that I've played before, and he was damn near impossible to kill plus having great "aggro control".

Knight 4/Crusader 16

Feats: Devoted Bulwark, Shield Specialization (Heavy Shields), Faith Unswerving, Shield Ward, Ability Focus (Knight's Challenge), Force of Personality, Improved Toughness

Bonus Feats: Stone Power [Human], Mounted Combat [Knight], Die Hard [Crusader]

This build forces baddies to attack him, he's nigh indestructible via hp damage, his important saving throws are quite potent, and he can even take hits for fellow party members. Try him out and see what you think.

[dextercorvia]

Alright, here's a quite successful tank character that I've played before, and he was damn near impossible to kill plus having great "aggro control".

Knight 4/Crusader 16

Feats: Devoted Bulwark, Shield Specialization (Heavy Shields), Faith Unswerving, Shield Ward, Ability Focus (Knight's Challenge), Force of Personality, Improved Toughness

Bonus Feats: Stone Power [Human], Mounted Combat [Knight], Die Hard [Crusader]

This build forces baddies to attack him, he's nigh indestructible via hp damage, his important saving throws are quite potent, and he can even take hits for fellow party members. Try him out and see what you think.

I don't recommend Test of Mettle. As is, the save DC is 12+Cha mod+2(ability focus). After about level 8-10 most enemies are going to laugh that off (as it is about the same as a 3rd level spell unless you prioritize Cha over Con and Str). Also, it doesn't work against the big guys that you want to keep from hitting the squishies. All it really does (if you get sufficient reach/Thicket of Blades and Combat Reflexes) is let you kill mooks with AoO's.

Edit: It isn't as bad on a pure Knight, but this is like dipping Sorcerer 4, for the ability to toss around 2nd level save or dies.

[SleepyShadow]

I don't recommend Test of Mettle. As is, the save DC is 12+Cha mod+2(ability focus). After about level 8-10 most enemies are going to laugh that off (as it is about the same as a 3rd level spell unless you prioritize Cha over Con and Str). Also, it doesn't work against the big guys that you want to keep from hitting the squishies. All it really does (if you get sufficient reach/Thicket of Blades and Combat Reflexes) is let you kill mooks with AoO's.

Edit: It isn't as bad on a pure Knight, but this is like dipping Sorcerer 4, for the ability to toss around 2nd level save or dies.

Test of Mettle is really only for the mooks anyway. The important stuff from Knight is Shield Block and Bulwark of Defense, as those abilities pair excellently with the concept of the character. Plus, unlike with Goad, the Test of Mettle is a swift action, so even if it fails you are hardly out anything in your turn.

With a Crusader, the general idea is the have a high Charisma anyway, so going Cha>Con>Str>Dex>Int>Wis is exactly what I did with my character, and he worked wonders.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Meet PBMC. He has a tendency not to finish his posts. He probably means a thread over at Brilliant Gameologists. He does a lot of TO builds.

Edit: In this case, I think it is linked in his sig.Nope. You want a build of mine (the one that has six digit hp). So the place to look would be my thread and build compendium. Unfortunately it is not in my sig.

I would put it there, but it seems I am not in control of my own sig on this boards, the m

[dextercorvia]

Nope. You want a build of mine (the one that has six digit hp). So the place to look would be my thread and build compendium. Unfortunately it is not in my sig.

I would put it there, but it seems I am not in control of my own sig on this boards, the m

This one? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=lj9lcelon8vdthq2uv9uf48dp1&topic=3084.msg96182#msg96182) I'll post the link since I like to be helpful.

[BinaryMage]

This one? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=lj9lcelon8vdthq2uv9uf48dp1&topic=3084.msg96182#msg96182) I'll post the link since I like to be helpful.

Thank you, though that may be more along the lines of "cheese" than I intended.

[dextercorvia]

Thank you, though that may be more along the lines of "cheese" than I intended.

The trick to reading a cheesy build, is to have your cheese knife in hand. That way, you can shave off the moldiest bits until you have the essence of the original dish, but in a form your DM's unrefined palate can tolerate.

[BinaryMage]

The trick to reading a cheesy build, is to have your cheese knife in hand. That way, you can shave off the moldiest bits until you have the essence of the original dish, but in a form your DM's unrefined palate can tolerate.

Your analogy is splendiferous. :smallbiggrin:
Thanks for all your assistance.