Initiate of the Seven Veils...

[Angry Bob]

I'm a DM trying to deal with an Initiate. I don't think he's been affected by anything since his build fully matured. I'd rather not ban him outright, but the next segment of the campaign needs to be able to legitimately threaten him.

The enemy they're facing is fully aware of his abilities, having had time to look them up and prepare countermeasures. Now I'm writing out countermeasures for any reasonably prepared enemy from the same group to have. As a DM, I'd rather not repeat myself unless the enemy with the particular method escapes. Here's a list of stuff I've thought of to go through the veils.

- Slotless use-activated items of spells that take down the veils built into(to obviate looting the ridiculously expensive items) various members of the organization. At least one encounter will see an entire set of such minions teleported in. Problem is relying on them to win initiative and not get pwned in one round.

- Burrowing spell. This one needs some clarification, since I'm not sure if it can bypass prismatic effects. If it does, it's going on a high-level kineticist.

- Disjunction spam. As a player and DM, this one seems morally wrong, so see below.

- Disjunction ray(LoM 45). I suppose the enemy could have a cadre of beholders with the appropriate feats, but this is so convenient for me that I fear overdoing it. The party has also fought beholders before, and the campaign isn't beholder-themed.

So, provide ways to bypass the initiate's veils. I need them badly.

[begooler]

Slotless use-activated items of spells that take down the veils built into(to obviate looting the ridiculously expensive items) various members of the organization. At least one encounter will see an entire set of such minions teleported in. Problem is relying on them to win initiative and not get pwned in one round.


Wouldn't scrolls of such spells suffice? Perhaps wielded by UMD rogues? If the enemy had time to prepare, it would make a lot of sense for them to just go out and buy the scrolls.
Scrolls aren't so ridiculously expensive that you'd be giving them too much loot, and you can deduct their value from the rest of the loot in the encounter.


Other ideas:
-Use an enemy that can sneak up on the party and get a surprise round on them before the veils go up. Getting them into melee as a surprise also means the IotSFV can't effectively use the veil to protect all of the party, since the enemy is also on her side of the veil. Bonus points if they initiate combat by grappling the caster.

-Shenanigans that strongly encourage the party to scatter themselves about. This makes it difficult for the IotSFV to protect all of the party members with the veils.

-Fake climax fights. Veils are a limited resource. Burn them up.

-Traps that are set to shoot the spells that break the veils.

-Pit traps. Other trenches and holes. Reflex to not fall in and take falling damage. Veils won't protect you from that.


Make sure that all of these challenges have a way to be bypassed. If the players succeed in bypassing them, they get the prize of getting to use their overpowered abilities. If not, they've got to fight at a disadvantage.

[dextercorvia]

Force him to throw up his Orange or Indigo Veils, as those require the least resources to defeat.

Alternatively, have something fire a volley, then vanish. Wait it out. Those wardings don't last forever.

[begooler]

I really like Dex's second idea. It's a really logical tactic that doesn't come off as you picking on the caster.

[Tvtyrant]

Have a Totemist with Disenchanter Beast Mask vomit on him and take the veils down.

[dextercorvia]

Have a Totemist with Disenchanter Beast Mask vomit on him and take the veils down.

Maybe I missed it, but where are veils classified as Magic Items or Soulmelds?

[tanderson11]

Speaking as someone who has played a high level IotSFV, the best way to challenge an Initiate is to force them to make difficult decisions for their wardings.

The simplest scenario is that they must protect x village-people. Now pulling up a personal warding is a luxury you cannot afford, and you must put down walls etc. to protect the commoners.

Do not use this tactic in many encounters because it quickly becomes tedious to constantly look after a bunch of helpless low level NPCs.

[Angry Bob]

Have a Totemist with Disenchanter Beast Mask vomit on him and take the veils down.

Disenchanter mask doesn't work on effects, just items and soulmelds.


Speaking as someone who has played a high level IotSFV, the best way to challenge an Initiate is to force them to make difficult decisions for their wardings.

The simplest scenario is that they must protect x village-people. Now pulling up a personal warding is a luxury you cannot afford, and you must put down walls etc. to protect the commoners.

Do not use this tactic in many encounters because it quickly becomes tedious to constantly look after a bunch of helpless low level NPCs.

Requiring him to guard villagers should work well. Like I said, I wouldn't use it over and over again because I don't want to get repetitive, but it is a nice idea.

Pitting him doesn't, because he's a pixie.

[Thiyr]

While I...don't -think- it's RAW, It's certainly not that far of a stretch to say that the Seven Veils would bypass the Veils set up by an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veils. And it would be so decidedly ironic and/or amusing. Not RAW because it specifies that it bypasses the effect of "Prismatic spells", and the veils aren't spells. That said, I'd still say it would be amusing to, say, have a rage mage gish with all of the veils as one of if not the last encounter, and just have them just suddenly axe their way through protective veils. I specify so late because that's...well, a lot of loot, all things considered, so it'd be best to give it when it soon won't matter all that much.

[Eurus]

While I...don't -think- it's RAW, It's certainly not that far of a stretch to say that the Seven Veils would bypass the Veils set up by an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veils. And it would be so decidedly ironic and/or amusing. Not RAW because it specifies that it bypasses the effect of "Prismatic spells", and the veils aren't spells. That said, I'd still say it would be amusing to, say, have a rage mage gish with all of the veils as one of if not the last encounter, and just have them just suddenly axe their way through protective veils. I specify so late because that's...well, a lot of loot, all things considered, so it'd be best to give it when it soon won't matter all that much.

It took me a minute to realize that you were talking about the Seven Veils set of items from the MIC, but that would be mildly hilarious.

Something else that is amusing is a rod of cancellation. Again, it might not RAW work on the veils, it depends on if you consider them as being like Prismatic Wall for all purposes (such as being immune to antimagic field). I had a character once who threw one of the things to punch through a prismatic sphere from sixty feet away so that the party mage could open fire. XD

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Witch Slayer and Momentary Disjunction might work. It doesn't destroy magic items, it just turns them off, and acts as a dispel.

Failing that, take a look at Suel Archanamach. Who also qualify for Abjurant Champion. Now then, Abjurant hampion 5 gives you Caster Level = BAB. Both classes are full BAB. So now their CL = Class Level. And the dispells a Suel Archanamach uses are at +6 to CL and are a Greater Dispel Magic.

Besides, Dispel Magic is just what the doctor ordered against a Violet veil anyways. Have 'em run into a Warlock or three with Voracious Dispelling.

Actually, the combo is:

Quicken Spell-Like Ability: Voracious Dispelling
Eldritch Glaive.

Particularly if you let them use HFW. A fanatical cult of hellish worshipers channeling the raw arcane powers of their infernal masters...

[Tyndmyr]

While I...don't -think- it's RAW, It's certainly not that far of a stretch to say that the Seven Veils would bypass the Veils set up by an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veils. And it would be so decidedly ironic and/or amusing. Not RAW because it specifies that it bypasses the effect of "Prismatic spells", and the veils aren't spells. That said, I'd still say it would be amusing to, say, have a rage mage gish with all of the veils as one of if not the last encounter, and just have them just suddenly axe their way through protective veils. I specify so late because that's...well, a lot of loot, all things considered, so it'd be best to give it when it soon won't matter all that much.

I would allow it, since Prismatic Wall is the spell the veils draw their properties from. Immunity from one should grant immunity to the other.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would allow it, since Prismatic Wall is the spell the veils draw their properties from. Immunity from one should grant immunity to the other.

Then again, getting your most powerful protective dropped by a Daylight or Magic Missile spell is rather embarrassing...

[Taelas]

Have one of the minions be an advanced Beholder with the Disjunction ray -- it's much better than throwing an entire cadre of them at the party, and if it's advanced enough, it can be a legitimate threat? Maybe the BBEG even specifically recruited the Beholder to combat the Initiate.

[Angry Bob]

Rod of Cancellation does work, but I'm not sure on how many of the veils it destroys at a time.

Dispel magic and derived effects don't, except for the one veil that you break through with it, the violet one I think.

[Vandicus]

Dispel magic and derived effects don't, except for the one veil that you break through with it, the violet one I think.

There's a significant difference between the powers of the IoTSV and prismatic wall. Prismatic wall gives it immunity to dispel magic and antimagic field, while the veils only specifically emulate each individual color, and also each have their own DCs rather than each having the same DC as the actual wall does. Also, the indigo veil prevents the caster inside from casting, although I let my players stick their hands out to do so, with the knowledge that this opens them up to normal AoO rules.

You should be able to convince your player that dispel magic and AMF work, and that AMF works even on the Indigo veil by virtue of superceding other magic negation effects that don't have a "better than AMF" clause.


*EDIT

I think its also possible to use a reach weapon to attack through the veils without an ill effect on the wielder or the weapon due to rules protecting magic items that are worn/wielded. I might be wrong about this though.

[VladtheLad]

I'm a DM trying to deal with an Initiate. I don't think he's been affected by anything since his build fully matured. I'd rather not ban him outright, but the next segment of the campaign needs to be able to legitimately threaten him.

The enemy they're facing is fully aware of his abilities, having had time to look them up and prepare countermeasures. Now I'm writing out countermeasures for any reasonably prepared enemy from the same group to have. As a DM, I'd rather not repeat myself unless the enemy with the particular method escapes. Here's a list of stuff I've thought of to go through the veils.

- Slotless use-activated items of spells that take down the veils built into(to obviate looting the ridiculously expensive items) various members of the organization. At least one encounter will see an entire set of such minions teleported in. Problem is relying on them to win initiative and not get pwned in one round.

- Burrowing spell. This one needs some clarification, since I'm not sure if it can bypass prismatic effects. If it does, it's going on a high-level kineticist.

- Disjunction spam. As a player and DM, this one seems morally wrong, so see below.

- Disjunction ray(LoM 45). I suppose the enemy could have a cadre of beholders with the appropriate feats, but this is so convenient for me that I fear overdoing it. The party has also fought beholders before, and the campaign isn't beholder-themed.

So, provide ways to bypass the initiate's veils. I need them badly.

Just a question. Do you rule that his veils affect his own spells?
I think thats how they are supposed to function, just like a prismatic wall/sphere would.

Also I am not sure but don't area of effect spells kinda bypass them? Maw of chaos, evards black tentacles and cloudkill etc.
Sure the veil would stop the spell from expanding further but if its point of origin is on the players side of the veil it would still affect him, right?

I don't remeber wether these spells need line of sight/effect though and wether the veils block line of sight/effect...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Rod of Cancellation does work, but I'm not sure on how many of the veils it destroys at a time.

Dispel magic and derived effects don't, except for the one veil that you break through with it, the violet one I think.

But the one veil you break through with it is the only one you need to really worry about, since it's the flat-out immunity one, which means it's generally the only one an Initiate bothers with once they get it.

[olentu]

But the one veil you break through with it is the only one you need to really worry about, since it's the flat-out immunity one, which means it's generally the only one an Initiate bothers with once they get it.

Nah by the time you get violet you have double warding so there is little reason not to throw up two.

[Taelas]

You should be able to convince your player that dispel magic and AMF work, and that AMF works even on the Indigo veil by virtue of superceding other magic negation effects that don't have a "better than AMF" clause.

Indigo veil "prevents the passage of all spells and spell-like abilities", full stop. It has no qualifications save for daylight, which negates it (and is negated by it in turn). Antimagic field is a spell, thus the area covered by an anti-magic field cannot pass through the indigo veil. No veils can be activated while under the effect of antimagic field, but indigo veil most certainly stops it. Furthermore, the ability specifies that the veils "duplicate the layers of a prismatic wall", which is called out as being not affected by antimagic field.

Sorry, but in my opinion, it is very clear-cut that antimagic field does not suppress the indigo veil.

[Vandicus]

Indigo veil "prevents the passage of all spells and spell-like abilities", full stop. It has no qualifications save for daylight, which negates it (and is negated by it in turn). Antimagic field is a spell, thus the area covered by an anti-magic field cannot pass through the indigo veil. No veils can be activated while under the effect of antimagic field, but indigo veil most certainly stops it. Furthermore, the ability specifies that the veils "duplicate the layers of a prismatic wall", which is called out as being not affected by antimagic field.

Sorry, but in my opinion, it is very clear-cut that antimagic field does not suppress the indigo veil.

The veils duplicate the layers. The layers. Not the spell.. The IoTSV gives SLAs that each imitate a layer of Prismatic Wall without stating that they benefit from all the bonuses of being the Prismatic Wall spell. They are not the Prismatic Wall spell.

Antimagic field has text that says this

"The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities."

The Indigo Veil is a SLA without text that allows it to explicitly survive AMF, IMO means AMF wins. Of course this is my interpretation

[King Atticus]

I would allow it, since Prismatic Wall is the spell the veils draw their properties from. Immunity from one should grant immunity to the other.

Yeah, I'd always assumed that was the intended purpose of that set of items.

[Taelas]

The Indigo Veil is a SLA without text that allows it to explicitly survive AMF

This is wrong. Antimagic field is a spell, which indigo veil specifically stops.

[Vandicus]

This is wrong. Antimagic field is a spell, which indigo veil specifically stops.

Likewise, the Indigo Veil is an SLA, which AMF explicitly stops. The IoTSV is one of the cases where I feel the RAW is unclear, as well as the RAI. My recommendation to the DM was therefore to use the more conservative reading(my own practice when I optimize my character) in order to deal with the IoTSV. The abilities are still very potent regardless, as I've seen one player use them in my game.

[Taelas]

No, you misunderstand. While antimagic field stops spell-like abilities, that simply means the question in this case is which ability is active at the time they meet. You cannot activate indigo veil within an antimagic field, but you also cannot bring an antimagic field effect within an active indigo veil. Due to the nature of the indigo veil when used as a personal warding and the nature of antimagic field, this means the veil will most often trump antimagic field, as the spell ceases to affect the person as soon as they step outside the area. If you create an antimagic field within reach of an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil who somehow does not manage to activate their veil, they can simply step out of the effect and activate the warding, and it will stop the antimagic field from affecting them.

[Vandicus]

No, you misunderstand. While antimagic field stops spell-like abilities, that simply means the question in this case is which ability is active at the time they meet. You cannot activate indigo veil within an antimagic field, but you also cannot bring an antimagic field effect within an active indigo veil. Due to the nature of the indigo veil when used as a personal warding and the nature of antimagic field, this means the veil will most often trump antimagic field, as the spell ceases to affect the person as soon as they step outside the area. If you create an antimagic field within reach of an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil who somehow does not manage to activate their veil, they can simply step out of the effect and activate the warding, and it will stop the antimagic field from affecting them.

Because....

Both effects are almost identical in nature(except for AMF being solid while the Veil is hollow or a line), while AMF traditionally triumphs over such things(dispel magic, wall of dispelling, etc.). You've explained how you believe they operate, but haven't provided an explicit RAW to demonstrate that one triumphs over the other. To me, this is the equivalent of two antimagic fields intersecting without the clause that two antimagic fields have no effect on each other.

[Taelas]

It is only possible for the antimagic field to suppress the indigo veil if it can do so without penetrating it. In my opinion, that is impossible, therefore an antimagic field cannot affect an active indigo veil.

But you are free to disagree, and I don't see how further discussion will do any difference, so let's simply agree to disagree.

[Vandicus]

It is only possible for the antimagic field to suppress the indigo veil if it can do so without penetrating it. In my opinion, that is impossible, therefore an antimagic field cannot affect an active indigo veil.

But you are free to disagree, and I don't see how further discussion will do any difference, so let's simply agree to disagree.

Let me clarify my position here. I'm not saying that any of the various interpretations we've said here are wrong by RAW, but rather that each of them is equally legitamate, because the RAW is unclear on the points we've discussed. The part which makes AMF vs Indigo unclear is in the IoSTV's text


Indigo Veil
This veil prevents the passage of all spells or spell-like abilities.


Much like AMF, the spell(in this case AMF) must pass through it in order to be effected. We come upon a paradox here, where both abilities counteract the other but need to pass into the other's zone in order to do so.

*EDIT
When I say each of the interpretations are legitimate, I include the position that the veils are invulnerable to dispel magic and AMF. The line duplicate the layers of is unclear in itself whether that includes the other effects of Prismatic Wall.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'm a DM trying to deal with an Initiate. I don't think he's been affected by anything since his build fully matured.

Pitting him doesn't, because he's a pixie.How high level is your group? It seems like they could reasonably be fighting level 20 wizards (it seems like they are level 20), which means they could be facing foes shapechanged into dire tortoises who have some sort of invis-detection up. If foresight is up for your pixie, it's a matter of who wins initiative, since the immediate action veil can be countered by celerity.

[Hazzardevil]

WitFailing that, take a look at Suel Archanamach. Who also qualify for Abjurant Champion. Now then, Abjurant hampion 5 gives you Caster Level = BAB. Both classes are full BAB. So now their CL = Class Level. And the dispells a Suel Archanamach uses are at +6 to CL and are a Greater Dispel Magic.

Shneeky, do everyone a favour and look up the BAB for Suel will you?

The only way I can think of for dealing with the veils is a build like this.
Send in a meatshield at this initiate, this will force it to throw up a veil, then send in a meatshield immune to that veil, repeat until he runs out of veils.

[Tyndmyr]

Indigo veil "prevents the passage of all spells and spell-like abilities", full stop. It has no qualifications save for daylight, which negates it (and is negated by it in turn). Antimagic field is a spell, thus the area covered by an anti-magic field cannot pass through the indigo veil. No veils can be activated while under the effect of antimagic field, but indigo veil most certainly stops it. Furthermore, the ability specifies that the veils "duplicate the layers of a prismatic wall", which is called out as being not affected by antimagic field.

Sorry, but in my opinion, it is very clear-cut that antimagic field does not suppress the indigo veil.

I agree with this interpretation. Now, if you can get the antimagic field point of origin inside the veil, go nuts...but that's a sticky thing, and it usually involves passing saves.

Vandicus, the layers work as they do in the spell. The spell creates a wall composed of the layers. The end result is the same. And indigo does not allow AMF to exist within it. It has clear text to that affect. Yes, you could not raise an indigo veil while already in an AMF, but if you've got it up(and hell, you probably do), the AMF is not a concern. The two effects are mutually exclusive. Neither allows the other to enter it's field of control.

Huh, wrote that entire bit before reading Szar's post. Go figure. In any case, it's the only completely neutral reading. And since neither ability is called out as superseding the other by RAW, it's the best bet. And this interpretation only matters if you don't inherit the AMF ignoring text from prismatic wall.

Note, however, that taking the prismatic veils = wall reading bypasses the whole AMF trouble...and lets you use the MiC Veils to bypass the veils. Definitely the easiest ruling to take, and also fairly easy to justify based on text.

I would advise challenging him by throwing him problems not solvable through use of the veils, or by simply taxing his total veil/day resources.

[Acanous]

a Runescarred Berserker with AMF scar and the Mageslayer line of feats, including Pierce magical Protection. Also have him be of a flying race. Lion totem for pounce, and a couple Charge feats, then use Dive attacks to go over the walls. Would propably work. It works against pretty much any non-Batman wizard, and even Batman if he didn't anticipate it.
Of course, this will kill the PC unless they Celerity+Teleport away. Could be used as a nemesis.

[Cruiser1]

In summary, there seems to be 7 ways (which is appropriate :smallwink:) to deal with an Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil:


Disjunction: Cast the spell, or have a Beholder cast the ray, to bring down the veil.
Right spells: Cast the right spells associated with the color(s), to bring down the veil. For example, enemy #1 casts Spell 1 + quickened Spell 2 to bring down both veils, then enemy #2 with the same initiative blasts you.
New clothes: Wear some or all of the Seven Veils set of items from MiC, to bypass the veil.
Movement: My favorite! Let the Initiate move into you while they have a veil up, which makes it no longer work against you. For example, turn invisible and get in their way, e.g. cast Lesser Celerity to interrupt their movement and sneak in front of them.
Initiative: When they try to raise a veil, cast Celerity to get in spells or other actions before it goes up. Catching them flatfooted (assuming they don't have Foresight) before they can raise a veil works too.
Attrition: Have enough encounters so the Initiate runs out of their 4 veils/day, to prevent a veil in the first place.
Nerfing: DM rule that veils affect the Initiate's own spells and attacks as well as the enemy's (making them less useful offensively), or DM rule that veils are suppressed by antimagic (in which case the Fighter with an antimagic field is a threat).

[Angry Bob]

a Runescarred Berserker with AMF scar and the Mageslayer line of feats, including Pierce magical Protection. Also have him be of a flying race. Lion totem for pounce, and a couple Charge feats, then use Dive attacks to go over the walls. Would propably work. It works against pretty much any non-Batman wizard, and even Batman if he didn't anticipate it.
Of course, this will kill the PC unless they Celerity+Teleport away. Could be used as a nemesis.

This intrigues me greatly. The group was scheduled to fight a berserker of some sort that was originally going to be a Frenzied Berserker. Perhaps now it'll be this(depends on how I rule AMF vs veils, I haven't had them fight in an AMF yet).

[Taelas]

Initiative is down to, well, who wins initiative. For one thing, Initiates can cast Celerity just as well as you, and the last one who cast theirs get their turn first (since immediate actions interrupt the current action). They don't even need Celerity, though -- wardings become immediate actions deeper into the class. If the Initiate wins initiative, you try to go first through Celerity, then they interrupt your immediate action Celerity with their immediate action warding. On the other hand, if you win initiative, you can interrupt their immediate action warding with an immediate action Celerity. Since there's only one immediate action per turn (as you actually use your next turn's swift action), the one who wins initiative wins the immediate action battle.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Initiative is down to, well, who wins initiative. *snip*Pixie has 4 LA. That means the group is probably level 20, the Pixie being something like a Wizard 9/IotSV7. That means no 9ths (no foresight, no shapechange), and a level 20 wizard is a "standard" encounter. The wizard can shapechange into a dire tortoise, greater teleport right in front of them (or right outside the range of Greater Anticipate Teleport, anyway) with no other buffs up, and still get a surprise round. No rolling for initiative is required.

[Taelas]

I was speaking in general, not for this specific example... but for this specific example, the pixie could easily just use scrolls.

If the GM allows LA reduction, they could also have reduced their LA from +4 to +3, then caught up to the rest of the party by using the self-correcting nature of the XP system, making them perfectly capable of casting 9ths.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I suppose, as far as this specific example goes, we'd need more information from the OP. The main point, however, is that the veils lose their unique potency once celerity is introduced.

[Angry Bob]

If you know who you are, my players should probably read this post.

The Pixie is a homebrewed LA+3 variant, lacking his most powerful SLAs. He's bought off all of his LA, and while I don't have the build in front of me, used sorcerer to get into initiate, with some other classes(Paragnostic apostle and "Minor specialist," a homebrewed, four-level variant of the master specialist for sorcerers). The party is at 18-19th level right now.

The enemy in question is my setting's version of Dal Quor, which is able to cross over to the prime material, though still not easily or en masse. Most of the major enemies will be psionic, except when they won't.

The specific fights I have planned(they might not play out exactly in this order because, you know, PCs.)

The initiate may have a solo battle against another caster, probably a wizard, unrelated to the main enemy but still part of the plot.

The Devourer, a "Psidrake(psychic loredrake)" Topaz Dragon(altered to advance as a kineticist) possessed by a 50 HD Kalaraq Quori, possibly accompanied by the UMD rogues brought up earlier in this thread. He should teleport in as soon as the PCs fly past the Rift, a world-spanning Dimensional Lock effect that separates the two continents.

The Traveler, an ardent(travel, chaos, etc mantles) with the form of a Living gate, also possessed by a Kalaraq Quori(less than 50 HD). Unsure how this'll go, since this one might turn against its masters and provide the PCs with a way to Dal Quor, depending on how the PCs deal with it.

The Reshaper, a high-level psion(shaper) possessed by a Kalaraq Quori. No idea how it'll play out eventually. Possibly accompanied by the berserker previously mentioned.

The Gatekeeper ???

The Harbinger, the final boss, a paragon inspired psion(telepath) they've known since level eight, possessed by the Dreaming Dark itself(a Paragon Mind Shard of Pandorym adjusted to be a Quori). Accompanied by endlessly respawning quori(like Kalaraqs). This setting's Dal Quor has the other quori as fragments of the Dreaming Dark, so it can recreate them on a whim if they're destroyed with at no expense.

I've only planned the minions of the Devourer and the Harbinger. The rest will have minions of some sort, I'm just not sure what. All of these bosses are possessed of their own free will for one reason or another. Some think they're improving the world, some just don't care.