Using UMD to fake Turn Undead

[Thespianus]

As I was reading up on the UMD-skill, I stumbled over the part that talk about emulating a class feature. You can use a UMD check to emulate having the Turn Undead class feature when activating items.

So, I turn to the MIC and find the Divine Wrath weapon enhancement, at +1 cost, it allows you to deal 1D6 extra damage per Charisma modifier, minimum 1D6 against undead targets. The bonus damage lasts for one attack.

Now, I realize this is a pretty shoddy trade: One Turn Undead attempt to gain 7-10 extra damage points for a cleric isn't fantastic. You have a limited number of Turn Undead attempts, so this will eat through your daily attempts pretty quickly.

Enter a Bard with a high Charisma score and a pumped UMD skill:

1) If you can emulate the Turn Undead class feature (PHB says it's a DC 21 UMD check), you can add your very high Charisma modifier to the above damage, giving you 5-10D6 worth of extra damage.

2) Apparently there's no limit on the number of times per day you can use UMD to emulate this class feature. If there is, I can't find it.

So, the only remaining problem now is to check for the time it takes to emulate a class feature with UMD:

- If it's a free action, the same way it would work when you used the "real" Turn undead class feature, we've created a pretty decent extra damage source for a Snowflake Wardance-enabled Bard. ( Naturally only in a Undead heavy campaign)
- If it's a swift action, it still ain't bad.
- If it's a move or standard action, it kinda blows, even though it would still be useable as the description says "next attack" without a time limitation.

So, what say you? I'm sure there are other items that you charge with Turn Undead attempts, this was the first decent one I stumbled over.

[NNescio]

Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).


...Divine wrath weapons are especially prized by paladins and clerics of Heironeous. Whenever you hold such a weapon in your hand, you can expend a turn undead attempt to imbue it with divine power for 1 round. ...

Basically, if you succeed in your UMD check, you act as though you have the "Turn Undead" class feature, but since you don't have any TU attempts, you cannot imbue the Divine Wrath weapon with divine power, similar to a cleric or a paladin who has zero turn attempts left.

[Divide by Zero]

You can emulate class features all you want, but you still don't have any TU uses to burn.

[Deth Muncher]

You can emulate class features all you want, but you still don't have any TU uses to burn.

What if he had a Nightstick?

[Divide by Zero]

What if he had a Nightstick?

Sure, but there's much easier ways to break the game with nightstick stacking.

[Deth Muncher]

Sure, but there's much easier ways to break the game with nightstick stacking.

True. But still. At least that sort of gets him to where he wants to be. I guess. >_> -shrug-

[NNescio]

On a related note, the OP's suggestion is also similar to UMDing a Runestaff. The UMDer can attempt to use it as though he has arcane spell slots, but if he does not have any actual spell slots to expend, he cannot actually use it, similar to a Sorcerer with zero spell slots left.

A Bard UMDing a Runestaff can activate spells that are not on his spell list though, since he does have actual arcane spell slots to expend.

[Thespianus]

Basically, if you succeed in your UMD check, you act as though you have the "Turn Undead" class feature, but since you don't have any TU attempts, you cannot imbue the Divine Wrath weapon with divine power, similar to a cleric or a paladin who has zero turn attempts left.

The relevant passage in the PHB is on page 86. I'm posting from my phone, but the example involves a Rogue activating a chalice that turns water into holy water by channeling positive energy by emulating the turn undead class feature of the cleric.

A cleric needs to turn undead in order to channel positive energy, I believe?

Maybe this is a case where the example doesn't match the rules, though.

[Feytalist]

The relevant passage in the PHB is on page 86. I'm posting from my phone, but the example involves a Rogue activating a chalice that turns water into holy water by channeling positive energy by emulating the turn undead class feature of the cleric.

A cleric needs to turn undead in order to channel positive energy, I believe?

Maybe this is a case where the example doesn't match the rules, though.

There are some items that allow you to make use of them only if you have Turn Undead, but you don't have to actually spend an attempt every time you use it. A character could UMD those items, but not any that actually requires activation of a TU attempt. Much like pretending to be a paladin via UMD to gain the full benefits of a Holy Avenger.

[Grendus]

On a related note, the OP's suggestion is also similar to UMDing a Runestaff. The UMDer can attempt to use it as though he has arcane spell slots, but if he does not have any actual spell slots to expend, he cannot actually use it, similar to a Sorcerer with zero spell slots left.

A Bard UMDing a Runestaff can activate spells that are not on his spell list though, since he does have actual arcane spell slots to expend.

Another common usage is for a Beguiler to UMD a runestaff that gives him some offensive and utility spells. They have a great spell list, but it's noticeably lacking things like Fly and any spell that does lethal damage. Beguiler can get more umph out of this with his sorcerer level casting progression than bard (barring Sublime Chord builds).

Dread Necromancers can benefit enormously from taking UMD cross class (or being human with Able Learner and picking it up with a one level dip) to pick up a Runestaff of Warding (with the Magic Circle and Dimensional Anchor spells). The planar binding spells are absurd, but their spell list is conspicuously missing the ability to actually negotiate with the bound entities.

But in order to use them, you have to have the spell slot. That's why rogues usually use scrolls or rods, which come with charges and don't require the ability to actually cast spells.

[Thespianus]

There are some items that allow you to make use of them only if you have Turn Undead, but you don't have to actually spend an attempt every time you use it.

I got back to my books, and this is what the PHB says:


For example, Lidda finds a magic chalice that turns regular water
into holy water when a cleric or an experienced paladin channels
positive energy into it as if turning undead. She attempts to activate
the item by emulating the Cleric’s undead turning ability. Her
effective Cleric level is her check result minus 20. Since a cleric can
turn undead at 1st level, she needs a Use Magic Device check result
of 21 or higher to succeed

Now, I realize that the examples given in the books not always match what the actual ability does, but the way I read this ability Lidda can indeed "fake" channelling positive energy the same way that a Cleric does when he spends a Turn Undead attempt.

But, maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part. ;)

Thanks for sharing your views on this.

[Feytalist]

That part you quoted has actually always confused me. I was talking about another, specific, magic item rather than that example, but I've forgotten the exact item. A necklace that allowed you to cast cure medium wounds once a day if you could turn undead? Something like that.

[Thespianus]

That part you quoted has actually always confused me. I was talking about another, specific, magic item rather than that example, but I've forgotten the exact item. A necklace that allowed you to cast cure medium wounds once a day if you could turn undead? Something like that.
I mean, as a DM I wouldn't allow my player to fake Turn Undead attempts all day long, but the part in the quote *is* confusing. Thanks for acknowledging that. :)

[Fouredged Sword]

To raise a counter point useing RAW

If I read the class feature right, it read that the Cleric has a number of Turn undead uses per day, not just that a cleric can tun undead.

Thus emulateing that ability would also be emulateing the pool of turn attempts, not just the ability to turn undead. This would restrict the rouge to a number of uses per day as if he was a cleric of whatever his UMD-20 check was.

This could get game breaking really fast if you consider that spell slots per day are also class features and in therory could be emulated.

I am not saying that this is a reading that should be used in a game, but this is a posible reading of the RAW.

[NNescio]

To raise a counter point useing RAW

If I read the class feature right, it read that the Cleric has a number of Turn undead uses per day, not just that a cleric can tun undead.

Thus emulateing that ability would also be emulateing the pool of turn attempts, not just the ability to turn undead. This would restrict the rouge to a number of uses per day as if he was a cleric of whatever his UMD-20 check was.

This could get game breaking really fast if you consider that spell slots per day are also class features and in therory could be emulated.

I am not saying that this is a reading that should be used in a game, but this is a posible reading of the RAW.

Let's see...

Let's just emulate a Barbarian's hitpoints whenever an item requires us to give up HP in exchange for an effect.

Meanwhile, everyone and his mother with UMD will emulate an Artificer whenever they activate a magic item.

...

I'm just saying that your interpretation is, well, ludicrous. Remember, the rogue can also perform multiple UMD checks. Also, a cleric's number of Turn Attempts is not dependent on his level (it's "3 + Cha Mod" instead).

[ericgrau]

I'm surprised that the first response is, "Ok, but you don't have any turn undead uses." So emulate the uses too.

But actually I think there are two ways to read this. One is that emulating the class feature gives you the class feature. The other is that you effectively have the class feature for the purpose of magic item use prerequisites. I favor the second interpretation on account of the fact that the skill is called "use magic device" not "pretend to have a class feature or another ability so hard that you actually have it."

Another side note: Interpretations of RAW aren't RAW. Whether "there's no rule against it", you go over-literal and ignore the context or however else you slice it. I'm cutting this notion off ahead of time before someone pretends the interpretation isn't open to debate.

[Fouredged Sword]

Hp are something that gained from a class by leveling up. The features of that class are the list of abilities that come after the basic level bonuses are writen. These are seperate things. Bab, skill points, HD, saves, and such are labled difrently than class features. Class feaures are everthing past the "Class Features" break in the class explanation.

Turn undead is a class feature. Trapfindeing is a class feature. Spellcasting is a class feature. Even spell slots and spells known are class features. A rouge could fake an item that required you to have a spell as a spell known. The slot are granted in the same class feature labled "Spells"

In a strict reading a rouge could make a 20 something UMD check to take ten on all other UMD checks with a magic item by emulateing the artificer ability. This is a reading based purely on what is writen.

I will say that it is definatly not the olny way to read the text, but I could see an argument based on it.

[NNescio]

I thought RAW is very clear about this matter:


Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

Note the blanket statement of "This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class." The entire interpretation of "let's emulate the uses as well" hinges on adding an additional qualifier by modifying the above to read "This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class except when activating items," which is highly suspect, as it is egregiously absent in the subsequent line: "It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature."

Really, if one can add in exception qualifiers in any part of RAW they can pretty much do anything.

[ericgrau]

... or sometimes you don't even need a good interpretation because the RAW explicitly disallows the silliness. Thanks NNescio.

It reminds me of the rule in shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight that says you cannot hide in your own shadow. In that the designers were actually afraid people would try this, and they're probably right.

Or the line in the create water cantrip that says you can't create water inside another creature. People actually tried/argued this in 2e to kill creatures.

[NNescio]

You're welcome.



Or the line in the create water cantrip that says you can't create water inside another creature. People actually tried/argued this in 2e to kill creatures.

On a related note, most Conjuration spells in general, to prevent stuff like Elephant and Whale divebombing.

('though I admit that this would be an awesome idea.)

[Fouredged Sword]

You can not turn undead, nor do you have turn undead.

You can use an item as if you had the turn undead class feature.


Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su)

Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead).

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells.

A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A cleric with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.


My point is that this class feature grants you a pool of turn undead attempts as well as the ability to turn undead.

You could then use this fake pool to use an item, becuse you are useing a magic device by useing a class feature that grants a number of uses per day.

You are restricted to a number of times per day as a cleric would, but you can do it. You still can't turn undead. If the item required you to be able to turn undead to use and granted a bonus to turn undead atempts a number of times per day it would do nothing.

You can fuel the item though.

If you had an item that required you to expend a spell slot, you could do it. You would have to emulate a level of wizard that could cast that spell level, but you could emulate and expend that slot.

You couldn't cast that spell, you do not have that slot. You can use an item exactly as if you could though, with all the restrictions of times per day a wizard would.

[Siosilvar]

You can not turn undead, nor do you have turn undead.

You can use an item as if you had the turn undead class feature.



My point is that this class feature grants you a pool of turn undead attempts as well as the ability to turn undead.

You could then use this fake pool to use an item, becuse you are useing a magic device by useing a class feature that grants a number of uses per day.

You are restricted to a number of times per day as a cleric would, but you can do it. You still can't turn undead. If the item required you to be able to turn undead to use and granted a bonus to turn undead atempts a number of times per day it would do nothing.

You can fuel the item though.

If you had an item that required you to expend a spell slot, you could do it. You would have to emulate a level of wizard that could cast that spell level, but you could emulate and expend that slot.

You couldn't cast that spell, you do not have that slot. You can use an item exactly as if you could though, with all the restrictions of times per day a wizard would.

No, you could not. You need to use the class feature (expend a turn undead use or spell slot) in order to power the item.

UMD does not let you use the class feature.

If the item merely required you to have turn undead uses or spell slots or "can cast 3rd level spells" to work, you could then use the item; however, UMD does not let you use the class feature, only pretend that you have it.

EDIT: To be even more clear.

You get the "turn undead" ability or spellcasting ability. You do not get any turn attempts or spell slots, regardless of what you use them for.

[Socratov]

So... If I understand this clearly... You can't turn undead, but use UMD to pretend you have the classfeature to qualify for the usage of magic items. So suppose you had an item that granted greater turning, but required turn undead, you could emulate having turn undead by using UMD, and use the item for greater turning.to be hones that would put warlock in an even better pposition, as he can take 10 on all UMD checks, and can use any UMD item, even if his race/class/anything would prevent it so...


Deceive Item (Ex): At 4th level and higher, a warlock has the ability to more easily commandeer magic items made for the use of other characters. When making a Use magic Device check, a warlock can take 10 even if distracted or threatened.

emphasis mine.

so, UMD+cleric's holy symbol of turning(which requires turn undead)+deceive item=warlock destroying undead?

[Fouredged Sword]

This is where we have a spliting in the raeding of the RAW.

My statement is that you can expend an turn attempt becue you have emulated a pool of turning attempts. You can't use a use of that pool, but you can expend one to activate an item.

I think you are reading the RAW just as directly as I am, but I think that the ability is less than completely explained. There is room for reading into the raw that would allow for a variety of capabilities.

[Socratov]

Oh how I wish WotC had made a clear and unambigious RAW (would make DnD sessions a lot more efficient, would eradicate a lot of arguing about rules). Would miss some RAW discussions though (definately not all of them). I mean with a lot of the RAW discussions you end up with 2 sides arguing in circles, indefinately.

I guess the real debate starts when bargaining with the DM ;)

[Siosilvar]

so, UMD+cleric's holy symbol of turning(which requires turn undead)+deceive item=warlock destroying undead? If you're referring to the Phylactery of Undead Turning in the DMG, then yes. Your Warlock can now turn undead as a 4th level cleric. Is there another turning-required but no use expended item?


My statement is that you can expend an turn attempt becue you have emulated a pool of turning attempts. You can't use a use of that pool, but you can expend one to activate an item.How are you expending a turn attempt if you can't "use a use"? If you can't use the turn attempt normally, I don't see why you should be able to use it to do something else.

[Grendus]

Or the line in the create water cantrip that says you can't create water inside another creature. People actually tried/argued this in 2e to kill creatures.

Reminds me of the group that used the stones leftover from Dust of Dryness to kill an over CR dragon. One of the party members put the stone in a sling and managed to throw it into the dragons mouth. After a few rounds of acid and crushing damage in the dragons stomach, an entire lakes worth of water began pouring out of every orifice in the dragon, killing it instantly. The party referred to that strategy as the Dragon Enema.

I have to admit, that would be my first idea if it weren't disallowed. Living creatures are pretty vulnerable on the inside, if you could conjure a fireball inside a dragons brain wizards become even more ridiculous.

[Socratov]

If you're referring to the Phylactery of Undead Turning in the DMG, then yes. Your Warlock can now turn undead as a 4th level cleric. Is there another turning-required but no use expended item?

How are you expending a turn attempt if you can't "use a use"? If you can't use the turn attempt normally, I don't see why you should be able to use it to do something else.

funny, an undead blasting warlock :smallamused:

anyway, I's rule it to be as follows: Yes you get the pool of turn attempts, no you cant turn undead, Yes you can give up turn attempts to fuel items (technically you get the pool, and technically the turn attempt would be considered a pre-requisite). This would open up a whole new batch of DMM shenanigans (that is, DMM in a wand :smallyuk: )

[RagnaroksChosen]

I don't understand how there is much of an argument?

UMD seems to say that you would emulate the class feature but not actually use it.

Seems like they are talking specifically about things like divine wrath, and other items.

The Item is activated by a turn attempt not qualified.

"Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above). "

Seeing as he is not turning any thing. He is not using the class feature, how ever "It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.", if he actually had the class feature he would be using an attempt. If it was an item that augmented your turn attempt it wouldn't work. Nor would it would if you actually where turning/rebuking/what not undead.

So if an Item required you to have a spell slot of x level then as long as your rolled the umd check so a caster of that level could cast it you should be good to go.

I think that the line "This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class." is referring to the fact that even though you are emulating the class feature you can't not activate the item and then use the class feature. and/or it wouldn't give you 3+char a day.

Remember the activated item requires you to expend the attempt not actually have the attempt.

[MeeposFire]

Oh how I wish WotC had made a clear and unambigious RAW (would make DnD sessions a lot more efficient, would eradicate a lot of arguing about rules). Would miss some RAW discussions though (definately not all of them). I mean with a lot of the RAW discussions you end up with 2 sides arguing in circles, indefinately.

I guess the real debate starts when bargaining with the DM ;)

Not really possible while being something that could be read easily in a reasonable number of pages while taking into account that you are not going to constantly go back and change it.

People will always find ways of twisting language to get something, even if it is really clear to most people. It can be intentional or unintentional but even the best made rules can be made to look unclear if somebody tries hard eough.

[Coidzor]

Well, there's bone talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a). That might offer some way of doing it. :smallconfused: