Two-Weapon Fighting Question

[Warrior 7]

After scouring many D&D forums for the answer to this (to me) rather obvious, yet still unexplained by the rules, question, I figured I'd post it here since the userbase here seems very knowledgeable about intricacies of the rules like these.

My question concerns two-weapon fighting. I am somewhat familiar with how two-weapon fighting works; it must be done as part of a full attack action, you get one additional attack with your off-hand weapon at penalties, etc. But consider a 6th level human fighter wielding 2 daggers, who has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. Now, I realize that he can use a full-attack to make two attacks with the daggers in his primary hand at +6 and +1, or can opt to make an two attacks with the primary hand dagger at +4 and -1 plus an additional single attack with his offhand dagger at -2 (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong).

My problem is this; what if I don't want to get an additional attack? Can I use a normal (I.E. no extra TWF attack) full attack action and use the +6 BAB to attack with the primary hand dagger and the +1 to attack with the dagger in my other hand while still retaining the full strength bonus for both attacks? Or are all multiple attacks granted from a high BAB only able to be used with the primary hand's weapon?

[Kefkafreak]

After scouring many D&D forums for the answer to this (to me) rather obvious, yet still unexplained by the rules, question, I figured I'd post it here since the userbase here seems very knowledgeable about intricacies of the rules like these.

My question concerns two-weapon fighting. I am somewhat familiar with how two-weapon fighting works; it must be done as part of a full attack action, you get one additional attack with your off-hand weapon at penalties, etc. But consider a 6th level human fighter wielding 2 daggers, who has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. Now, I realize that he can use a full-attack to make two attacks with the daggers in his primary hand at +6 and +1, or can opt to make an two attacks with the primary hand dagger at +4 and -1 plus an additional single attack with his offhand dagger at -2 (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong).

My problem is this; what if I don't want to get an additional attack? Can I use a normal (I.E. no extra TWF attack) full attack action and use the +6 BAB to attack with the primary hand dagger and the +1 to attack with the dagger in my other hand while still retaining the full strength bonus for both attacks? Or are all multiple attacks granted from a high BAB only able to be used with the primary hand's weapon?

Why would you want to do that? If your BAB is +6/+1 you can make a +4/+4 (offhand) / -1 full attack.

[Warrior 7]

The question isn't whether I'd want to do it or not, it's if it's possible. The issue has come up, say where I want to hold two weapons, each enchanted differently, but be able to use them both at once without having to dip into TWF mechanics if I have multiple attacks from high BAB.

On a related note, where does it say the additional attack from TWF is at your highest BAB minus TWF penalties?

[Kefkafreak]

The question isn't whether I'd want to do it or not, it's if it's possible. The issue has come up, say where I want to hold two weapons, each enchanted differently, but be able to use them both at once without having to dip into TWF mechanics if I have multiple attacks from high BAB.

There's a feat (I think it's in CW) that let's you hit with both weapons as a standard action.


On a related note, where does it say the additional attack from TWF is at your highest BAB minus TWF penalties?

I don't know, but it's common sense. A level 5 ranger with TWF can do a +3/+3 attack, why would it get worse when he levels up?

[Warrior 7]

You're still not answering the question though. I want to know if all the extra attacks gained from high BAB must be used to attack with only one weapon, or if you can mix-and-match from all weapons you're holding with no penalty.

[Groverfield]

I believe, RAW says that all characters are considered ambidexterous, so technically with the TWF feat, and no bonuses except +6 BaB, your full attack would be +4(Whichever dagger you want to be considered MH)/+4(Other dagger)/-1(Mainhand weapon).
From this, you can take improved TWF for another attack at -1(Other dagger)

OR you could choose one dagger to attack with at +6/+1 for a full attack (Just because its in your hand doesn't mean you have to fight with it)

Edit for ninja/clarification:
Technically, no...? (I can't find anything that says you can, but also nothing that says you can't)

[Kefkafreak]

You're still not answering the question though. I want to know if all the extra attacks gained from high BAB must be used to attack with only one weapon, or if you can mix-and-match from all weapons you're holding with no penalty.

If you attack with two weapons you get the penalties. The TWF feat is not only for getting an extra attack, but also to lower the penalties. If you choose to do a +6/+1 attack it can only be with one weapon.

[NikitaDarkstar]

There's a feat (I think it's in CW) that let's you hit with both weapons as a standard action.

Two Weapon Pounce, aand technically you only get both on a charge, you exchange your (minor) atk bonus from charing for the option to attack with both hands, but most DM's seem to handwave it to apply to all standard actions. Granted it's from PHB2 so you might be thinking of something else.

Anyway I think Kefkafreak is right, for the +6/+1 you can only attack with one of the weapons.

[Warrior 7]

I believe, RAW says that all characters are considered ambidexterous, so technically with the TWF feat, and no bonuses except +6 BaB, your full attack would be +4(Whichever dagger you want to be considered MH)/+4(Other dagger)/-1(Mainhand weapon).
From this, you can take improved TWF for another attack at -1(Other dagger)

OR you could choose one dagger to attack with at +6/+1 for a full attack (Just because its in your hand doesn't mean you have to fight with it)

Edit for ninja/clarification:
Technically, no...? (I can't find anything that says you can, but also nothing that says you can't)

Yes, this is what I'm talking about. Nothing explicitly says you can't, but all the rules seem to suggest that the multiple attacks from high BAB must be used for whichever dagger I'm calling the "primary weapon" for that full attack only and that TWF and such must be used to attack with whichever dagger is the "offhand weapon" for that full attack.

[Kantolin]

Actually, using the Two-Weapon fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting)rules is only for getting an extra attack in.

If you have +6/+1 BAB, you are free to make the first one a longsword swing, drop it, quickdraw a new weapon, and swing with that one. Or swing with your bastard sword and kick the opponent with an unarmed strike. Or trip and then disarm the opponent. Or longsword and then dagger someone.

Two-weapon fighting comes up only if you attempt to take an extra attack, upon which the (rather sizeable without the feat) penalties apply.

[Warrior 7]

Yes, this is what I'm talking about. Can anyone corroborate this? I'd assume you still get the normal strength bonus appropriate for the weapon while doing this and not the forced 1/2 bonus you get for making an extra attack with your offhand weapon in addition to your normal attacks?

Also, what is the initial attack bonus for all offhand attacks before penalties? Is it +0?

[Darrin]

If you have +6/+1 BAB, you are free to make the first one a longsword swing, drop it, quickdraw a new weapon, and swing with that one. Or swing with your bastard sword and kick the opponent with an unarmed strike. Or trip and then disarm the opponent. Or longsword and then dagger someone.


This is correct. It's not explicitly stated in the rules as such, but when you're making iterative attacks, you can switch your "primary" weapon for each attack. Under the Full Attack entry in the Combat section:

"If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first." (emphasis added)

Note that it says "using two weapons", not "using two-weapon fighting". You can hold a weapon in each hand (or not hold anything for armor spikes/unarmed strikes) and attack with either one as your primary weapon. This only mentions the first attack, but it's been implied that you can switch your primary weapon on subsequent attacks. I think Skip Williams says more about this in one of the Rules of the Game articles (either TWF or Unarmed Strikes), but I can't recall exactly where. If you're not using TWF, then you get your full Str bonus as normal on each attack, regardless of which "hand" you use.

[Feytalist]

So, to be clear: you get to switch your "primary" hand in-between attacks in a single round?
That might be RAW, but it seems a bit wonky to me.

If that's the case, when WTF, what's to stop you attacking with one weapon with your "primary" hand, taking the WTF penalties as usual, and then suddenly switching your primary hand to your other weapon and then taking those attacks?
So, for the abovementioned level 6 fighter, attacking with dagger 1 at +4/-1, then declaring dagger 2 your main hand, then attacking once with dagger 2 at +4 with your full Strength bonus? Since that's how I'm interpreting the above reading of the rules.

[Daremonai]

I'm fairly certain that twf specifies that the extra attack is with your off hand. Declaring your previously-off hand to be main would mean you can't take the extra attack. I think.(away from book atm)

[Feytalist]

I'm fairly certain that twf specifies that the extra attack is with your off hand. Declaring your previously-off hand to be main would mean you can't take the extra attack. I think.(away from book atm)

Actually this makes sense. I'm AFB as well, which is why I'm wondering.

The ruling still strikes me as wonky, though. It creates a situation where you can attack with the same weapon for all your WTF attacks: attack with weapon 1 while TWF, then switch your off-hand and make your off-hand attack also with weapon 1.

Maybe I'm just being bull-headedly stupid about all this?

[Allanimal]

The ruling still strikes me as wonky, though. It creates a situation where you can attack with the same weapon for all your WTF attacks: attack with weapon 1 while TWF, then switch your off-hand and make your off-hand attack also with weapon 1.

Yes, it is odd, but that's how it works. TWF penalties come in to play when you take that extra attack. Remember however that the penalties differ depending on whether your off-hand weapon is light. So if you are holding a dagger and a longsword, and you choose to make all attacks with the longsword, for your "offhand" attack, it is no longer a light weapon in your off hand and your penalties will jump.

[Andreaz]

You can do it. TWF is optional when using more than 1 weapon available to you(rules compendium). If you can wield multiple weapons you can use only the default array of attacks with any combination of the two+ weapons(including not using some of them at all). It's the reason I always use armor spikes or spiked gauntlets together with reach weapons.

That said, the rulings do not cover "entering TWF" in the middle of a turn, so I suggest that you pick whether or not you are in TWF-Mode at the beginning of your turn.

[Feytalist]

Man, D&D is weird.

[Larpus]

Of course you can choose whether or not you're going to use TWF rules to...well, TWF as part of a full-attack.

Why? Simple, 'cus otherwise anyone carrying a one-handed weapon, no shield and not wielding it in two hands would be screwed!

If TWF were always mandatory as long as you were eligible for it, then whenever you had one free hand you would be eligible for it, so a lvl6 Fighter who usually fights with a greatsword swings for +6/+1, however let's say that he gets arrested and has to make a prison run, but the only weapon he can find is a shortsword and decides to fight while holding a CMW he found so he can chug it easily.

So now he's magically obligated to TWF with his shortsword + his potion (which will break) and on top of it get a -4/-8 penalty bringing his swinging down to +2/-3/-2? That's crazy talk.

Similarly, let's say it's a Rogue now and he has 10 Str, so it makes little point to him whether he holds his weapon with two hands or not, if TWF were mandatory, every time he attacked he would do so at -4/-8 and worse yet, his second attack is Unarmed, so unless he has the feat he'd be provoking AoOs all the time.

tl;dr
Yeah, you can choose whether or not you're going to benefit from TWF, regardless of be wielding two weapons or not.

[Keld Denar]

As noted, you can attack with as many weapons in a round as you want, as long as you don't make any more attacks than your BAB (and other modifiers) allow you to, and none of them are considered offhand attacks, no matter which hand you use.

If you have a dagger in each hand, armor spikes, and a boot blade, and a BAB of +11, you get 3 attacks with any combination of those 4 weapons. You can make 3 right hand daggers, 3 left hand daggers, left/right/left, 2 daggers and a spiked armor, 2 daggers and a boot blade, etc. All attacks are considered main hand attacks, since the only time you ever have an offhand is when you TWF.

3.5 got rid of "handedness". Everyone is considered to be multidexterous, equally competant at striking regardless of which limb is used. Thus, nobody has an offhand until you use the TWFing combat option and GAIN an offhand attack with all of the penalties and bonuses described therein.

[Warrior 7]

Thank you all, this answers my question perfectly.

EDIT: I found something that might countermand this. From the Rules of the Game articles on the WotC website, Two-Handed Fighting, part II:



Some attack penalties you voluntarily assume, such as the penalty for defensive fighting (see pages 140 and 143 in the Player's Handbook), apply until your next turn, but two weapon penalties are not one of them.

If, after you made two-weapon attacks with your sword and torch, a foe later provokes an attack of opportunity from you that same round, you can strike that foe with your longsword with no two-weapon penalty at all. (You also can use just the torch, also with no two-weapon penalty, though you still take the -4 penalty for an off-hand attack; you also still take the -4 penalty for an improvised weapon for a total penalty of -8.)


Note the section near the end where it says even with the attack of opportunity later, attacking with the weapon held in the other hand still applies an offhand penalty of -4. This is confusing because it basically means that multiple attacks from high BAB can only be done with whatever hand is your primary hand for that attack or you'll suffer offhand penalties, which countermands what was said above. I'm confused now, does anyone know how to resolve this?