Alternate Entry for Warlocks - Does this work?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Something I realized as I was looking up various ways to try and get Warlock some actual spells via Sandshaper... even though he can't cast, he still has access to the freebie spells.

Now, would this qualify him for any PrC's? Is there a way to be able for him to actually *cast* these spells? That would certainly make him qualify very easily...

EDIT: Use Precocious Apprentice to get a 2nd level spell, and Dragonsblood Pool to get a 3rd level spell.

Now you can cast 3rd level spells, and can now access nearly any PrC you want!

[peacenlove]

Something I realized as I was looking up various ways to try and get Warlock some actual spells via Sandshaper... even though he can't cast, he still has access to the freebie spells.

Now, would this qualify him for any PrC's? Is there a way to be able for him to actually *cast* these spells? That would certainly make him qualify very easily...

I used exploits of this nature for my shadowcaster to qualify for Dread Witch. My Dm allowed it, however most prestige class need either ability to CAST the spell in question, ability to CAST 2nd-3rd level spells or (arcane) caster level X, where you qualify by virtue of being a warlock). So no, unless you cheat with Dragon's Blood pool (CM) or take levels in Ur-Priest, by RAW it isn't possible.

If the PRC instead states (Spells known (X and Y)) then yes you could qualify.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I used exploits of this nature for my shadowcaster to qualify for Dread Witch. My Dm allowed it, however most prestige class need either ability to CAST the spell in question, ability to CAST 2nd-3rd level spells or (arcane) caster level X, where you qualify by virtue of being a warlock). So no, unless you cheat with Dragon's Blood pool (CM) or take levels in Ur-Priest, by RAW it isn't possible.

If the PRC instead states (Spells known (X and Y)) then yes you could qualify.

You know... Precocious Apprentice should be able to help qualify you. It lets you cast a single 2nd level spell, which Sandshaper gives you...

[Cog]

Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to.
Does a Warlock have access to any schools of magic, without any spells at all? It would work on top of the Nosomatic trick, though.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Does a Warlock have access to any schools of magic, without any spells at all? It would work on top of the Nosomatic trick, though.

Sandshaper gives him spells known. It can replace the Nosmatic trick.

And it doesn't say it access to school, it says: Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school that is not barred to you (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a). Since you don't have any barred schools...

[Cog]

If you count that as giving access without any actual spellcasting ability, then sure.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you count that as giving access without any actual spellcasting ability, then sure.

Don't need access, just need to have it not barred. Since warlocks don't bar schools, you're gold.

[Cog]

Ah, I see the problem now. You're looking at the preview version; the version in the actual book has the wording I used.

[Dream_Merchant]

Instead of going through rules loopholes and taking feats without any sense of flavor, try talking to the DM to adapt the Sand Shaper prestige class to fit a warlock. Should not be a of a big challenge and the flavor doesn't need much adjustment.

Consider these changes to the abilities:

Desert Insight (Ex): At level 1 you gain Call of the Beast as an extra invocation which you can only use with animals that are native desert dwellers. In addition you gain Earthen Grasp as an extra invocation. This ability allows you to cast Earthen Grasp only in sand.

At level 4 you gain Cold Comfort and Stony Grasp as extra invocations. This ability allows you to cast Stony Grasp only in sand. You can cast these invocations only if you have the ability to cast lesser invocations.

At level 8 you gain Nightmares Made Real as an extra invocation which you can only use to create an illusory desert environment and you may choose to have it deal its damage as dessication damage. You can cast this invocation only if you have the ability to cast greater invocations.

Improved Dust Magic (Ex): You can empower, enlarge, extend, silence or still any invocation you cast 3 times per day. You can't apply more than one enhancement from this ability to a single invocation and you can't apply the enhancement if it has already been applied from another source. You can not exceed the minimum equivalent spell level in regards to your current caster level when applying the enhancements to an invocation.

You can use this ability only when casting an invocation in a waste terrain. You gain additional use of this ability at 7th level and 9th level. Uses of this ability stack with Greater Dust Magic.

Greater Dust Magic (Ex): Same as above but you also get maximize and widen spell-like ability.

The other abilities and pre-requisites stay the same.

NARF: lol.. you want to actually give spells to a warlock.. oh hehehe.. well anyway *goes back to life..

so which PrC are you aiming for? Maybe it can be adapted to a warlock...

[NecroRick]

I'm unfamiliar with the Sandshaper prestige class, but I note that if you are trying to get into it with Precocious Apprentice, that in itself has the requirement that you must be an arcane caster.†

So you have to start as a one level dip into either Wizard or Sorcerer anyway (or Sha'ir or Wu Jen etc).

So let's assume level 1 Wizard, Levels 2-5 Warlock. Oh ho! Now we can get into the dual progression Eldritch Theurge! Which is 10/10 arcane/invocations. So just level up in that for a bit, until you dip into Sandshaper... to get spells...

Or... just stick with Eldritch Theurge? (Apologies if this isn't relevant, again, I'm not familiar with Sandshaper, so all I have to go on is that you want to add some spells to your Warlock)

†Of course your DM could just rule of cool ignore this (i.e. Warlock qualifies), but then apply the same logic to your Warlock to let you get into any prestige class you like.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think people have missed the point...

The Sandshaper PrC just requires a spellcaster level, which Warlock qualifies as. It also gives them spells, although no means to do so. However, having them lets me use the Precocious Apprentice feat to qualify for other prestige classes which have requirements of 'must be able to cast x level spells'.

[Dream_Merchant]

So, which is the PrC you are aiming for?

[Cog]

I understand your point. I just disagree that you have access to a school of magic if you are entirely incapable of casting spells from that school of magic, and a Warlock / Sand Shaper is incapable of such casting.

Edit: Dream Merchant: I think it's an exercise in seeing what you can gain access to. The argument presented is that, between Sand Shaper and Precocious Apprentice, a Warlock can cast a number of second-level spells, and so can possibly use those to qualify for other hypothetical classes.

[Dream_Merchant]

I see..so its a discussion of RAW and not an actual desire to make a specific character..

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I see..so its a discussion of RAW and not an actual desire to make a specific character..

Correct. Anyone can simply handwave. I prefer to work within the rules to still accomplish what I want. Otherwise it'd just be a freeform RP.

[Vandicus]

I would also think that access to a school of magic requires the ability to actually cast said spells, so I don't think Precocious Apprentice would work there. However, I don't think the term access to a school of magic is actually spelled out anywhere, so it could be interpreted either way.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would also think that access to a school of magic requires the ability to actually cast said spells, so I don't think Precocious Apprentice would work there. However, I don't think the term access to a school of magic is actually spelled out anywhere, so it could be interpreted either way.

However, the ability doesn't require access to a school of magic, merely not being barred from one. Check the link.

[Vandicus]

However, the ability doesn't require access to a school of magic, merely not being barred from one. Check the link.

Assuming that the text isn't changed in the book, then yes its perfectly useable by RAW.

*EDIT

Can someone with access to the book right now get verification of whether it says not barred or has access to?

[Cog]

I already pointed out that the wording in the book is indeed different.

[NecroRick]

I think people have missed the point...

The Sandshaper PrC just requires a spellcaster level, which Warlock qualifies as. It also gives them spells, although no means to do so. However, having them lets me use the Precocious Apprentice feat to qualify for other prestige classes which have requirements of 'must be able to cast x level spells'.

Indeed I think I have missed the point.

If you just took Warlock X and then dipped Sandshaper 1, you wouldn't be able to take Precocious Apprentice at all.

You need to take it at level 1.
AND
You need to be an arcane caster when you do.

You can't take levels of Sandshaper and _then_ the Precocious Apprentice.
AND
You can't take Precocious Apprentice at level 1, hoping that the level of Sandshaper you pick up down the track will qualify you for it.

So what is the point of keeping going on about this feat? Not only does it do absolutely nothing for you, you can't even (legally) take it...

[Cog]

Warlocks do have an arcane caster level, actually. Even if ShneekeyTheLost's interpretation were correct, they would gain no benefit from the feat until taking a Sand Shaper level, but they can take the feat either way (assuming you grant "spellcasting ability" the same leeway as "+1 spellcaster level", though I suppose that is debatable as well...

Also worth noting is that Precocious and Collegiate are in a sidebar that says it's up to the DM whether to include them in the first place.

[dextercorvia]

The problem with a Warlock taking PA is not with the prereq's, but with the benefits. They don't have access to any schools of magic. Therefore you can take the feat, but you won't ever benefit from it, since you have to choose benefits at the time you choose the feat.