I am a Dragon.

[DGB]

I have a hoard. And I want to protect it.
For clarification: I (the Dragon) know that a party of adventurers roam this land and many of my kind have already lost their hoard or lives in the last, Let's say hundreds of Years.

What would be reasonable investions any intelligent Dragon would take against being stolen from, in your opinion?

My thoughts were:
Protection against scrying Inside the cave (wards?),
Possibly even protection against teleporting?
A way to avoid ability Drain / Level Drain?( shivering Touch...)
Fire resistance to resist DFB time stop shenanigans
An escape option in case things turn dire.

Thanks for your help.

What would you reccomend for such a Dragon?

[aquaticrna]

1) Protection against scrying
-permanent private sanctum, no scrying period
2) protection against teleporting?
-delay teleport is a good one, makes an ambush very doable, remember they have to visit the location first to even know where they're going so you've already met everyone that can teleport in.
3) A way to avoid ability Drain / Level Drain?( shivering Touch...)
-permanent sheltered vitality, you don't take ability damage or drain, ever.
4)Fire resistance to resist DFB time stop shenanigans
-immunity to element, permanent ideally
5)An escape option in case things turn dire.
-contingent teleport

also your actual hoard should be stored at your super secret unknown to anyone else cave that can only be accessed by teleporting that has all the same protections, your contingent teleport leads you there, the fake horde consists of only cursed items and illusionary gold =P

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, and also, don't generally fight anywhere that you can't, you know, use your fly/burrow/swim/etc. to maximum tactical effect.

[faceroll]

You want scintillating scales, a spell from the spell compendium. It turns your natural armor into a deflection bonus. Good vs. touch attacks.

You also want to get your caster level up. Loredrake gets you +2 sorc levels, and practiced spellcaster gets you +4 CL, up to your HD. Should look into getting a ring of enduring arcana and bead of karma. That will boost your CL so adventurers will have a hard time dispelling your spells.

[danzibr]

also your actual hoard should be stored at your super secret unknown to anyone else cave that can only be accessed by teleporting that has all the same protections, your contingent teleport leads you there, the fake horde consists of only cursed items and illusionary gold =P
Unfortunately I lack the mechanical knowledge to be useful, but this? This is awesome.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Have the Ray Deflection spell continually active so you're immune to ranged touch attacks, such as Enervation, Orb spells, etc. Superior Resistance, Mind Blank, and Energy Immunity (multiple times) are also good to have. Get Craft Wondrous Item and make an automatic reset trap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#designingATrap) to cast those spells on yourself. Blanket your lair with Permanency + Mage's Private Sanctum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm). Check this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) for acquiring various immunities, the grafts in particular are exceptional because they cannot be stolen. Use Permanency with Arcane Sight so you can better dispel opponents' buffs.

Make a few Simulacra each with a Permanent Image of a treasure horde to distract would-be adventurers, they can also use your buffing trap every day and leave them the responsibility of activating Private Sanctum. Include traps and pitfalls where the adventurers would be fighting. Have a few (Un)Hallows active to affect creatures of your faith and alignment with Freedom of Movement so long as they remain within. Have permanent Dimensional Lock effects so adventurers cannot teleport, access extradimensional storage such as Bags of Holding, and cannot use Rope Trick; it should be projected by a custom magic item, and individuals who possess a special key can bypass its effect. There should be permanent Walls of Greater Dispel Magic between every room to run adventurers out of buffs.

Powerful creatures have minions, and lesser creatures who tag along looking for table scraps. Several dozen Ethereal Filchers prowl around outside the lair. They hide ethereally within the rocks so even See Invisibility cannot detect them. They can move out and jaunt to the material plane, Slight of Hand an object, and jaunt back ethereal as a free action, then drop prone as another free action to pass beneath the ground and be once again undetectable. They've been at this for so long that they know what adventurers are up to, they can recognize if someone has a readied action, and they will never put themselves in harm's way. Note that if it makes the DC 20 Slight of Hand check it gets the item, regardless of whether it was noticed, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. They're particularly fond of necklaces, and will take holy symbols, spellbooks, and spell component pouches because the dragon will trade them highly desirable baubles for any of those things they steal. They won't go into the lair due to the Dimensional Lock effect.

There should be several Simulacra lairs, each of which should have some sort of overlook with tiny windows. The only way between this overlook and your inner sanctum is through another tiny window. When adventurers engage a Simulacrum, you go to the tiny window viewing the overlook, cast Project Image, and use the image to cast spells through the windows of the overlook as the adventurers are fighting your Simulacrum. Focus on dispelling their buffs, inflicting lasting effects like Exhaustion and ability damage/drain on them, and herding them into pit traps and deadfalls. There could be multiple Simulacra in a given room, perhaps three, who speak well-rehearsed lines in unison such as, "Which of us is the real one?!" Adventurers would likely try to focus on one of them at a time, so they should use Benign Transposition, Mislead, etc. to confuse them and force them to switch targets as much as possible.

A lair could have a foot of murky water on the floor, with pits hundreds of feet deep hidden beneath, and creatures like Hydras with Snatch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#snatch), Improved Snatch, and Multisnatch, or advanced Monstrous Crabs (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) lurking below. There should be more permanent Wall of Dispel Magic across the top of each pit and a Permanency Stinking Cloud just below, making it difficult for someone to escape or be rescued. There could also be basic pit traps on the floor, hidden by Permanent Image illusions, and nobody would even get a saving throw until someone had fallen in; they won't be searching for traps during a fight with a Simulacrum that they believe to be the primary inhabitant of the lair. There could be several 15 ft. square holes, 15 ft. deep, with an Advanced Gelatinous Cube in each one, hidden by a Permanent Image of the floor. Anyone who walks onto a cube would automatically be engulfed as per walking into it, thus it makes an effective way to take someone out of the fight, plus the cubes can be used for waste disposal.

Lots of traps, lots of minions, and lots of ways to use up adventurers' spells and other limited resources, and ways to prevent them from resting via teleporting out or using Rope Trick. Make them think they're at the final encounter so they use their best stuff multiple times; the first Simulacrum fight should do that regardless of appearance, the second should look much more grand and pose a greater threat, the third can be multiple Simulacra, etc. If they do leave to rest, scry them out and send summoned/called creatures, disposable minions, etc. to keep them from resting, or inform the Ethereal Filchers of their location.

[Acanous]

Yarr Harr Fiddle de dee,
Being a Dragon is alright with me!
Do what you want 'cause a Dragon is free
You are a Dragon!~

Your most obvious horde (The one you sleep on) is actually a Permanent Image set on top of say, a comfy dragon-sized mattress. This mattress is trapped with persisted Lesser Vigor.
If your dragon wants some extra AC, pick up a Monk's Belt. They're cheap.
the feat Lingering Breath combined with Maximize breath weapon can make things very uncomfortable for anyone not immune to your element. What colour is this dragon? if it's one with the shapechange or alter self abilities, pretending to be another colour of dragon to fool adventurers into taking the wrong precautions will help.

Also, secret backdoor tunnel that is actually a trap. Or rather, a series of traps. First trap: Obscuring Mist (Triggered when any creature opens the secret door) Second trap: Teleport (Triggered when any [your size category] creature moves 20' into the tunnel, to a preset destination [propably also where your horde really is. No dragon should be far from it ;)])
Third trap: Stinking cloud (Triggered when any creature smaller than your size category moves 20' into the tunnel)
Fourth Trap: Ghost sound (Of a dragon running further down the tunnel)(Triggered when a Teleport is activated within the tunnel)
and finally, a delay-trigger autohit mechanical trap for tons of damage, plus poison (Think dropping poisoned ceiling spikes) with a mechanical reset, triggered when a creature steps on a pressure plate. 5 round delay should do it.

Here's how it works: If you are taken under half HP, run for your secret tunnel. Obscuring Mist happens. Intentionally fail your reflex save and trigger the pressure plate while moving forward. You end your turn teleported to your secret location, propably a sealed vault underground which has another teleport trap geared to teleport you back to your cave somewhere inside it. Lesser Vigor means you can just hang out there and regain HP, while back in your lair, the adventurers hear the dragon running further down the tunnel. Anyone who chases you will set off the Stinking Cloud, which will hopefully keep the reckless adventurers occupied in the trap area until the ceiling spikes come down for massive damage.

This is actually fairly inexpensive, the most expensive part being the Teleport trap. The downside is that it only works on foolhardy adventurers who would chase after a retreating dragon in his own lair. The upside is that this accounts for some 90% of adventurers.

[137beth]

Honestly an anti magic field, plus anti-scrying ect, seems reasonable...
You lose your breath weapon, but then PCs lose their main advantage: spells.
Oh, and their martial characters also lose the benefits of their magic items. You should occasionally withdraw the anti-magic field ahead of time, to use divination to warn of incoming adventurers.

[King Atticus]

Have the Ray Deflection spell continually active so you're immune to ranged touch attacks, such as Enervation, Orb spells, etc. Superior Resistance, Mind Blank, and Energy Immunity (multiple times) are also good to have. Get Craft Wondrous Item and make an automatic reset trap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#designingATrap) to cast those spells on yourself. Blanket your lair with Permanency + Mage's Private Sanctum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm). Check this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) for acquiring various immunities, the grafts in particular are exceptional because they cannot be stolen. Use Permanency with Arcane Sight so you can better dispel opponents' buffs.

Make a few Simulacra each with a Permanent Image of a treasure horde to distract would-be adventurers, they can also use your buffing trap every day and leave them the responsibility of activating Private Sanctum. Include traps and pitfalls where the adventurers would be fighting. Have a few (Un)Hallows active to affect creatures of your faith and alignment with Freedom of Movement so long as they remain within. Have permanent Dimensional Lock effects so adventurers cannot teleport, access extradimensional storage such as Bags of Holding, and cannot use Rope Trick; it should be projected by a custom magic item, and individuals who possess a special key can bypass its effect. There should be permanent Walls of Greater Dispel Magic between every room to run adventurers out of buffs.

Powerful creatures have minions, and lesser creatures who tag along looking for table scraps. Several dozen Ethereal Filchers prowl around outside the lair. They hide ethereally within the rocks so even See Invisibility cannot detect them. They can move out and jaunt to the material plane, Slight of Hand an object, and jaunt back ethereal as a free action, then drop prone as another free action to pass beneath the ground and be once again undetectable. They've been at this for so long that they know what adventurers are up to, they can recognize if someone has a readied action, and they will never put themselves in harm's way. Note that if it makes the DC 20 Slight of Hand check it gets the item, regardless of whether it was noticed, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. They're particularly fond of necklaces, and will take holy symbols, spellbooks, and spell component pouches because the dragon will trade them highly desirable baubles for any of those things they steal. They won't go into the lair due to the Dimensional Lock effect.

There should be several Simulacra lairs, each of which should have some sort of overlook with tiny windows. The only way between this overlook and your inner sanctum is through another tiny window. When adventurers engage a Simulacrum, you go to the tiny window viewing the overlook, cast Project Image, and use the image to cast spells through the windows of the overlook as the adventurers are fighting your Simulacrum. Focus on dispelling their buffs, inflicting lasting effects like Exhaustion and ability damage/drain on them, and herding them into pit traps and deadfalls. There could be multiple Simulacra in a given room, perhaps three, who speak well-rehearsed lines in unison such as, "Which of us is the real one?!" Adventurers would likely try to focus on one of them at a time, so they should use Benign Transposition, Mislead, etc. to confuse them and force them to switch targets as much as possible.

A lair could have a foot of murky water on the floor, with pits hundreds of feet deep hidden beneath, and creatures like Hydras with Snatch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#snatch), Improved Snatch, and Multisnatch, or advanced Monstrous Crabs (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) lurking below. There should be more permanent Wall of Dispel Magic across the top of each pit and a Permanency Stinking Cloud just below, making it difficult for someone to escape or be rescued. There could also be basic pit traps on the floor, hidden by Permanent Image illusions, and nobody would even get a saving throw until someone had fallen in; they won't be searching for traps during a fight with a Simulacrum that they believe to be the primary inhabitant of the lair. There could be several 15 ft. square holes, 15 ft. deep, with an Advanced Gelatinous Cube in each one, hidden by a Permanent Image of the floor. Anyone who walks onto a cube would automatically be engulfed as per walking into it, thus it makes an effective way to take someone out of the fight, plus the cubes can be used for waste disposal.

Lots of traps, lots of minions, and lots of ways to use up adventurers' spells and other limited resources, and ways to prevent them from resting via teleporting out or using Rope Trick. Make them think they're at the final encounter so they use their best stuff multiple times; the first Simulacrum fight should do that regardless of appearance, the second should look much more grand and pose a greater threat, the third can be multiple Simulacra, etc. If they do leave to rest, scry them out and send summoned/called creatures, disposable minions, etc. to keep them from resting, or inform the Ethereal Filchers of their location.

WOW. That was...impressive. Well played, you just destroyed anyone foolish enough to challenge you for your hoard...ever. :smallbiggrin:

[Delcor]

Well,

I remember one of my first dragon fights, we were all buffed and ready to go, and our fighter charged it, and fell into a 100ft pit trap, and didn't get out for the whole encounter. So not so much ward traps as much as things that can take people out of combat.

That is my advice :smallsmile:

[Tvtyrant]

Well,

I remember one of my first dragon fights, we were all buffed and ready to go, and our fighter charged it, and fell into a 100ft pit trap, and didn't get out for the whole encounter. So not so much ward traps as much as things that can take people out of combat.

That is my advice :smallsmile:

Solid Illusion Wall of Force so the mages fall through the floor that the fighter just walked over. >:D

[Acanous]

oooh, I like that idea. It's crafty. Where is Solid Illusion? Is it a feat or a spell itself?

[Tvtyrant]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocationGreater.htm

Lets you cast any Evocation up to 7th level, including none combat ones. Wall of Force versus high will save=death trap.

[Acanous]

Ahh, shadow Evocation. Gotcha. I thought there might be some kind of actual "Solid Illusion" spell, which would have been even more awesome.

[Slipperychicken]

A trick from another thread, 1sts and cantrips easily (ab)usable for Dragons; Have at least one pile of near-worthless items, Arcane Mark most of them at various CLs so they light up under detect magic. An addition I just thought up: Prestidigitation them to appear to be valuable (most of them magic) items. Then watch the look on your adventurers faces when they start burning 100gp Identifies. Also, this is yet another good time for Explosive Runes: Dragons have hundreds of years to spam them all over items/pieces of paper Arcane Marked and Prestidigitation'd to appear to be magic scrolls, wands, magic weapons, doors, signposts, especially in the first "fake" stash so these adventurers quickly die and/or learn not to f*ck with Dragons. Cursed Items are yet another thing to consider.



EDIT: 1+ Minions polymorphed into a dragon so the adventurers waste their nova on it/them. The real dragon is actually a sparrow just waiting to blow *its* nova. For extra cruelty, a twice-polymorphed minion with high CHA and Bluff, after the first, turns from a sparrow into a dragon and starts a monologue. You bumrush them/flee as they waste ever more of their resources and attention on it. And you make them afraid of small birds. And they'll never be sure if you're dead.

[NecroRick]

If you read Races of the Dragon (?) (the one with all the broken kobold crap), it talks about how the Kobolds deal with needing to guard _their_ gold which _they_ dug up from the ground.

Their solution is to give it to the nearest dragon...

Now where this gets interesting is what happens if the kobolds need that armour for something? Like... I dunno, the Kobold King wants a pair of dual Vorpal (un)Holy Keen scimitars, or a mith/mantium suit of all the optional extras (or all of the above?).

Or maybe the dragon decides that the best way to keep the money safe is to give it to a bank (Eberron has a stable continent wide banking system, which is more than can be said for _some_ modern countries *cough* America *cough*).

Or maybe the Dragon becomes an art collector.

So... the kobolds come to make a withdrawal one day from "their" hoard which they are "letting" the dragon "borrow"... discover that it's all been spent on lousy art, and lose their gnome-hating reptilian tempers.... :D

[Redshirt Army]

Regardless of your alignment, stay on good terms with any important nearby governments (Depending on the morality and power of said governments, this can involve anything from helping repress any rebellions against the king, insinuating yourself as an adviser to the rulers, or merely hiring out services in times of war.) This makes it far less likely for the adventurers to go after you in the first place, gives you a chance to pick up allies, and provides a steady income stream.

Don't keep your valuables in a nice neat pile, no matter how tempting that may be - keep them off site, well warded, and ideally in a location only accessible through teleportation (hollow out an area in a mountain with stone shape, line the walls with lead to stop scrying, and now the only way to get there is to Teleport while knowing the location).

Play nice with the Kobolds, and they'll set up hideously efficient traps in your front room, all the while worshiping you as a god (and if you forbid them from raiding the aforementioned city states, more free good publicity!).

Exercise smart battle tactics (I'm sure you'll get plenty of suggestions). Be sure to shore up typical dragon weaknesses (Especially Touch AC).

[Claudius Maximus]

Don't keep your valuables in a nice neat pile, no matter how tempting that may be - keep them off site, well warded, and ideally in a location only accessible through teleportation (hollow out an area in a mountain with stone shape, line the walls with lead to stop scrying, and now the only way to get there is to Teleport while knowing the location).

No no, you're thinking too small.

Learn Ghostform, Greater Teleport, and Disintegrate, and put your real hoard in the core of the moon.

[Alleran]

No no, you're thinking too small.

Learn Ghostform, Greater Teleport, and Disintegrate, and put your real hoard in the core of the moon.
That's still too small.

Pick up the Genesis spell somehow (even as a scroll). Use it. Create a demiplane with the features that best assist you in keeping it secret. Or move your entire lair to another plane somewhere. I think Dragon #308 has a spell that can do it.

[Kojiro]

Breaking the "too small, let's get more extreme" chain, Stone Shape out a tunnel and cavern, keep the really important treasure in there. Possibly throw an Antimagic Field up in there, in the cavern part but not extending into the tunnel. Then Stone Shape the tunnel closed again. Hollow chamber of antimagic stuff that should be undetectable (not sure if that'd stop scrying admittedly), with no signs of its location; unless they tear the mountain down, they aren't finding it.

Alternatively, cast Hoard Gullet on yourself two or three times a day and just eat all your treasure. You should be reasonably sure at all times that no one is stealing it. Unless you're a heavy sleeper and happen to be the victim of insane/suicidal adventurers during your slumber.

[Feytalist]

Presumably, the idea of having a horde is to be able to enjoy the horde. No self-respecting dragon will willingly divide up or hide his horde far away from him. Devising the ultimate lair trap is well and good, but you have to keep human nature (er, "dragon nature" in this case I suppose) in mind.

I do like the simulacra/fake real dragons strategy though.

[NecroRick]

A 60ft wide moat of lava.

An anti-magic field in the middle.

PCs fly across. PCs die. Also: built-in alarm system (their screaming lavaey deaths)

[Ravens_cry]

One way is, if you are a smart Dragon is to integrate yourself into the local Feudal system as a high ranking Lord or Lady, and having vassals to help with the protection as well as allies in the form of other peers. That way if some adventurers try to take you out, they basically just declared war on an entire country.
Plus, I like the idea of a dragon who doesn't live in a dank cave, but in a specially designed keep and castle.

[hamishspence]

A 60ft wide moat of lava.

An anti-magic field in the middle.

PCs fly across. PCs die. Also: built-in alarm system (their screaming lavaey deaths)

if the first one does this, subsequent ones will use nonmagical flight.

[Eldest]

For the superpost up there with all the permanent silent image spells, just use illisionary walls, they don't cost XP and are permanent.

[gkathellar]

Short answer: Venture Capitalism.

Long answer: Stop letting human lords and kings and innkeepers snatch up all the good talent. Become the top-dog patron for adventurers in the region, to the point of starting up guilds in most major cities and making sure you're a key reference as far as every wily innkeeper and plucky bard in the land is concerned. Once you've done that, stick to a couple of rules:

1. Don't mix business with pleasure — you're a freelance employer, not the owner of a private superhumanoid army. Never sic your boys on your rivals.
2. Be generous — if you act like Shylock, your adventurers are going to treat you like Shylock. If you act like a wise mentor, they'll treat you with reverence.
3. Don't be afraid to act in a way that builds loyalty and co-dependence — you ultimately want adventurers to value your power, wisdom and helpfulness, and even go out of their way to protect you.
4. Create a competent bureaucracy — as your influence grows, you won't be able to take care of everything yourself, so you'll want to carefully select the people who can represent you.
5. Keep your eye open for talent — actively scout for the best of the best, and be sure to mentor and administer your finest freelancers personally.

Now your adventurer problems are gone because they all work for you.

[Xanmyral]

-Snip-
This is brilliant, and I wont lie, I may steal this if I'm strapped for ideas.

[Ravens_cry]

if the first one does this, subsequent ones will use nonmagical flight.
Which Tanglefoot bag spam takes care of effectively.

[NecroRick]

if the first one does this, subsequent ones will use nonmagical flight.

Like what? Hang-gliders?

Alter Self? Oh wait, that's a spell...

------

With respect to the "integrate deeply into human(oid) society", I think that while some few dragons might do that, the rest wouldn't bother. I mean, you get all emotionally involved and after a couple of hundred years they're all dead and you have to start over. Plus all the whiney politicing... no thanks.

If you're a massive dragon the easiest way to mechanically safeguard your treasure against puny humans is to recast it into 500 kilo (or more) ingots, and then pile them up in an anti-magic field. You can lug them around, but the puny mortals won't be able to move them. And you can still dive into them Scrooge McDuck Money Bin style.

[aquaticrna]

Like what? Hang-gliders?

you could rent a roc, or any other really big bird, or you could buy/rent an airship depending on setting, or you could just use a catapult! (that counts as flying right?)

[tyckspoon]

Like what? Hang-gliders?

Alter Self? Oh wait, that's a spell...


Racial would be the simplest access- Raptorans, Dragonborn, and (naturally) one variety of Elf all have wings. Then there's flying mounts, which are purchasable if you really need them (buy a trained Pegasus/Hippogryph) or can be picked up with feats (Dragon Steed, Wild Cohort). Or just maximize your Jump check and leap the moat- a standard human under the effects of an Expeditious Retreat and a full-strength Jump spell can clear 50 feet by taking 10, untrained and with no other stat bonuses. Anybody with ranks in it and the resources to acquire those spells in the first place should be able to hit 60 without much trouble.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can gain nonmagical flight via the Feathered Wings graft in Fiend Folio for 10,000 gp.

[Ravens_cry]

I repeat: Tanglefoot bags (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#tanglefootBag), and lots of them, against all you winged flyer types.
While it would not work on Airships, airships that are actually none-magical, rigid dirigibles and blimps, are, well, massive and fragile. Other defences would take care of them handedly and they're honestly too big to be really practical inside almost any building or cave.
Jumpers? Make the gap big and low.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

If those adventurer's are full casters and you aren't epic, you're screwed. If not, things may actually be intere

[dspeyer]

Make the only entrance a lava-filled (or acid, whatever you're immune to) tunnel in an anti-magic field.

[gkathellar]

Make the only entrance a lava-filled (or acid, whatever you're immune to) tunnel in an anti-magic field.

So what? Any wizard with an ounce of lateral thinking skill won't try going through the antimagic field, they'll go around it by tunneling through the cave wall with transmutation effects.

Or they'll just teleport in.

EDIT: Quoted the wrong person. Anyway, I laugh at your puny "entrances." Hahaha!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're a cold-type dragon, be sure to put force any invaders to traverse a freezing cold underwater tunnel. Take Snowcasting and use Flesh to Ice with a Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell. As per Frostburn, if their clothes are wet with freezing cold water they take a -10 penalty on Fort saves against any cold-subtype effect.

[Claudius Maximus]

If those adventurer's are full casters and you aren't epic, you're screwed. If not, things may actually be intere

Not necessarily! I mean, at the highest levels of optimization the party would win by sheer virtue of having a number of invincible spellcasters greater than the dragon's one, but if you dial things back to even reasonably high PO the dragon can be a nasty customer with its thousands of years of preparation and presumably humongous hit dice and caster level.

I think Talic/PhoenixRivers ran a pbp game on this a while back, and if memory serves the battle was still pretty pitched before he was forced to stop it, and it wasn't entirely clear that the party would win.

[Aergoth]

Your answer! Draconomicon has it!

So, starting out: Lair wards are your friend. If your lair needs magical flight for the PCs to access? Put a Cavern of the Earthbound Ward right above a pit trap in the entrance.
If that's a little too simple, the PCs won't fly up magically, or you've got an island lair, the Cloudgathering Orb is your ticket. Makes inclement weather for two miles in all directions. Hurricane's Eye is nice to stack on top of that.

Want to keep the PCs from pulling tricks? A simple cavern of babble will make it harder for those brawny types to use magic items that need a command word.

Keeping your lair from being spied on? Inscriptions of Vacancy makes it looks like no one's home. Inscription of Privacy warns you of scrying attempts.
Sigils of Supression straight up knock out spellcasting, as a globe of invulnerability.

Wonderous absence removes any magic auras in the cavern.

Other than that, ingratiate yourself with the people, or adventurers If you're an evil dragon, set yourself up with some criminals or other unsavoury folks. Make it worth their while and make sure your friends are ideally positioned in low places to hear things. Taverns, shops that deal in magic items or other places adventurers are likely to frequent should be liberally salted with your people. Forewarned is forearmed. Liberal use of Geas or similar compulsions may be warranted.
If you're a good dragon? Get the aid of the powers that be. Arrange a mutually beneficial situation with someone high up, be it a wizard's guild that you exchange the occasional arcane secret with, a group you could finance, a village or town you protect having a solid power base there without seeming like a tyrant. Have some half-dragon offspring to represent you.
You need advocates, and blood is thicker than water.

[JaronK]

Get a hat of disguise. If you're already immune to cold, make yourself look like a Red Dragon. If you're not, look like a White Dragon. This way either you're already immune to Shivering Touch or the enemy won't prep it, and either way it makes sure they don't target your weakness. Be sure to set up your cave so you seem like the other kind of dragon, and never go outside without the right disguise up.

Have a permanent illusion up of yourself sleeping somewhere in your cave. Trap the area around it so that if anyone sneak charges that illusion, they fall for the trap, or at least make a lot of noise. Consider just putting gravel around your false sleeping form to make noise when they attack.

A really cheap and effective trap is a pit trap with a Ghoul Glyph in it and water at the bottom. Anyone who falls in is paralyzed with no save, then drowns. And the spell is second level, permanent until discharged!

Have an agent of some kind in the local tavern. Adventurers love to stop there, and you'll thus get an advanced warning. Consider setting up a random quest for them, so that you can have your agent safely ask their abilities (when hiring them for this quest) thus allowing you to gauge the threat in advance.

If you can cast high enough level spells, get a horde of undead. They're handy for draining spells off the PCs as they advance.

Make sure your sleeping area and any area you hang out in allows you to always be within 60' of any area you can see, so your Blindsense will auto detect any sneaky Rogues trying to get in.

If you're not using any metal items in your horde, or can at least secure them safely, have some Rust Monsters hanging out. They'll scare away the PCs effectively enough.

Get some Kobolds for protection. They'll happily worship you and they won't take your stuff, and they'll fight to the death to protect you if you so much as nod your head at them. Plus, some are really powerful. Consider blessing some of them with your children... that might result in some Dragonwrought Kobolds or at least Half Dragon Kobolds, who are quite powerful and will still help keep you safe.

JaronK

[Ravens_cry]

But for their to be half dragons you would have to . . .
Oh dear.:smalleek:
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.:eek:

[JaronK]

Dragons do that sort of thing all the time. It's pretty much their thing. They're more willing to sleep with odd critters than humans (consider Half Elves, Centaurs...).

JaronK

[RedWarrior0]

Rust monsters? I think you mean an auto resetting trap of Iron Body followed by opening into a pit of rust monsters.

Another devious trap is to have a moat of acid (illusioned to look like lava, with heat and everything) (also, acid sharks are a must; see dungeonscape) with the AMF above it (shaped to not touch the acid). On the other side of the moat is a wall of force. Or perhaps a wall illusioned to look like a cavern. Or perhaps a number of walls of force, one in fron of the other a milimeter apart in front of a wall illusioned to look like a cavern.

Read Tomb of Horrors. Sphere of Annihilation in a crawl space and the "teleport you to the enterance, all your stuff to the lair" trap are my two favorites.

Also, all the stuff about simulacra, etc.

Another thing to consider is to look at a playthrough of IWBTG for evil level planning. Everything will kill you. Everything. No exceptions.

I don't know how it could be replicated, but the curses on the objects in the vault in the seventh Harry Potter book (duplicate and then become scorching hot) are a devious method of crush-burning anyone who touches your stuff to death.

[Ravens_cry]

Dragons do that sort of thing all the time. It's pretty much their thing. They're more willing to sleep with odd critters than humans (consider Half Elves, Centaurs...).

JaronK
Yes, but I can see it with my brain.
All of it with my brain.
I do not want to see it with my brain.

[JaronK]

Rust monsters? I think you mean an auto resetting trap of Iron Body followed by opening into a pit of rust monsters.

Another devious trap is to have a moat of acid (illusioned to look like lava, with heat and everything) (also, acid sharks are a must; see dungeonscape) with the AMF above it (shaped to not touch the acid). On the other side of the moat is a wall of force. Or perhaps a wall illusioned to look like a cavern. Or perhaps a number of walls of force, one in fron of the other a milimeter apart in front of a wall illusioned to look like a cavern.

Read Tomb of Horrors. Sphere of Annihilation in a crawl space and the "teleport you to the enterance, all your stuff to the lair" trap are my two favorites.

Also, all the stuff about simulacra, etc.

All of that stuff requires very high level spells, which makes them much harder for a Dragon (likely with rather low casting abilities) to do. The Ghoul Glyph pit trap is something any Dragon with 3rd level spells can create daily.

JaronK

[deuxhero]

I repeat: Tanglefoot bags (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#tanglefootBag), and lots of them, against all you winged flyer types.

Better than that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions). They will always move at half speed as long as you hit. This restricts them to going straight forward (or hover if good/perfect) or crashing. It doesn't matter if they are winged flyers or magical ones.

[Ravens_cry]

Better than that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions). They will always move at half speed as long as you hit. This restricts them to going straight forward (or hover if good/perfect) or crashing. It doesn't matter if they are winged flyers or magical ones.
A winged flyer type though has the potential to be knocked out of the sky entirely. Still, if they can only move forward, you can easily lead them into your other defences, like the Anti-magic field.

[NNescio]

Better than that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions). They will always move at half speed as long as you hit. This restricts them to going straight forward (or hover if good/perfect) or crashing. It doesn't matter if they are winged flyers or magical ones.

Even better when combined with the Launch Item spell. Which can be reached and chained for added hilarity, 'though it might not be worth it at that point, even with (or perhaps because of) Arcane Thesis.

[NineThePuma]

Even better when combined with the Launch Item spell. Which can be reached and chained for added hilarity, 'though it might not be worth it at that point, even with (or perhaps because of) Arcane Thesis.
Just have one of your Kobold Minions do it. Specialize that far. ;D

[Fouredged Sword]

20 level one sorcerer kobolds with magic misile and wands of fell drain sonic snap. It is supriseing how much effectiveness that has in the middle of combat.

Permenant solid fog clouds with invisable spell metamagiced on them are a nice suprise over a lava pit. If you lack a fly speed that lets you hover you end up falling, and while they are stuck trying to push through que the kobolds with fell drain sonic snap wands.

[DarkestKnight]

prismatic wall with invisible spell metamagic from cityscape. start taunting enemy...

[MammonAzrael]

Disclaimer: I have not read through the thread.


What would be reasonable investions any intelligent Dragon would take against being stolen from, in your opinion?

Emphasis mine (obviously). You're a dragon, protecting your hoard. Reasonable in this case can entail having the entire mountain turn into Mt. Vesuvius. Paranoia is only paranoia if they aren't coming to steal your stuff. Coming into your home to steal your stuff. And they are. For an intelligent dragon, pretty much nothing is too extreme.

[Yahzi]

Why does everyone always overlook Forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm)? It's cheap, large, and blocks all planar travel - teleport and summonings.

[JackRackham]

Yes, but I can see it with my brain.
All of it with my brain.
I do not want to see it with my brain.

Don't be silly - POLYMORPH!! If the dragon's turned off by the (whatever), it can polymorph them. If the whatever is turned off, or concerned for size category reasons, the dragon can polymorph itself. Easy.

[Ravens_cry]

Don't be silly - POLYMORPH!! If the dragon's turned off by the (whatever), it can polymorph them. If the whatever is turned off, or concerned for size category reasons, the dragon can polymorph itself. Easy.

But if they have become the said creature, gonads and all, then any children they have would be that creature and the creature they bred with. BoEF may have an answer, but standard D&D does not I believe.

[Midnight_v]

So... all that being said... how do the players defeat these things you've all come up with? Thats the trick to forsee, the flaws in the plan you have to think like the robber.

[The Glyphstone]

Howbout investment? Buy land, property - go into real estate, be the landlord of a third of every major city within a hundred miles of your cave.

[deuxhero]

Why does everyone always overlook Forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm)? It's cheap, large, and blocks all planar travel - teleport and summonings.

Primarily because you want to have a hoard when you are done and 60 cubic feet is very little for 1000 gold. Secondarily because its a used once 6th level spell (only ancients get it naturally) that is normally only divine so no scrolls of it for you, despite the fact it is on your class list* unless you bought UMD ranks/items or have the right feat/class levels.



The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)

[tyckspoon]

Primarily because you want to have a hoard when you are done and 60 cubic feet is very little for 1000 gold. Secondarily because its a used once 6th level spell (only ancients get it naturally) that is normally only divine so no scrolls of it for you, despite the fact it is on your class list* unless you bought UMD ranks/items or have the right feat/class levels.

'A 60 foot cube' would normally be interpreted as a cube 60 feet to a side, or in grid measurement 12 squares. It's expensive, sure, but 2 or 3 of those should cover your hoard/sleeping area adequately; it doesn't matter that much if prospective enemies can teleport into your lair, as long as they still have to go through some defenses/alarms on the way and can't shortcut straight to your most valuable location. Well worth hiring/coercing somebody to cast for you if you can't do it yourself... (and a pretty good bargain compared to the prices of some of the lair wards and traps that have been suggested in this thread.)

[Yahzi]

can't shortcut straight to your most valuable location.
And of course, there's the chance one of the PCs will fail his Will Save... and not be able to enter the lair at all. Is that funny or what? :smallbiggrin:

[tyckspoon]

And of course, there's the chance one of the PCs will fail his Will Save... and not be able to enter the lair at all. Is that funny or what? :smallbiggrin:

It would be. Unfortunately Forbiddance doesn't work like that; you absolutely cannot planar travel into its area, but you can walk in all you like. All it does to impede that is inflict damage when you cross the boundary, and the Will save is just against that damage.

What you *can* do is have a little switchback passage that crosses over the boundary of the Forbiddance several times.

[OldFart]

Place standard guards on your lair, like Forbiddance and Mage's Private Sanctum. It's suspicious if they're not there. Make sure there's one small area in your lair where Forbiddance is not in effect. Most folks if you covered 99% of your lair you covered all of it. Especially if the non-covered area is hard to reach.

Get access to an extra-dimensional space. There are so many ways to do this. Mage's Magnificent Mansion, Genesis, a Rod of Security, etc. If you can't cast the spell(s), hire someone. You've got the money.

You should be pretty secure, but now make it certain. Create a blasted skeleton or corpse of a dragon of your type and size. Polymorph Any Object may be useful here. Decorate your lair with it, the bodies of a couple of dead adventurers, the aftermath of a mighty battle, and broken chests and other signs of a looted treasure hoard.

When the thieves show up, you and your hoard aren't there, they assume others have beaten them to their prize, and set off in pursuit of the "rival adventuring party."

Optionally, include magic (or simply stealthy underlings) to gather descriptions and/or other intelligence on the intruders, and hire bounty hunters to dispose of the mammals who dared to enter your lair.

With any luck, the scoundrels will survive long enough to spread the word that there's no point in raiding your home, and might even manage to eliminate a few of their fellow robbers whilst attempting to take "your wealth" from those they believe "stole" it from you.

[LibrarianHuntar]

Have the Ray Deflection spell continually active so you're immune to ranged touch attacks, such as Enervation, Orb spells, etc. Superior Resistance, Mind Blank, and Energy Immunity (multiple times) are also good to have. Get Craft Wondrous Item and make an automatic reset trap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#designingATrap) to cast those spells on yourself. Blanket your lair with Permanency + Mage's Private Sanctum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm). Check this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) for acquiring various immunities, the grafts in particular are exceptional because they cannot be stolen. Use Permanency with Arcane Sight so you can better dispel opponents' buffs.

Make a few Simulacra each with a Permanent Image of a treasure horde to distract would-be adventurers, they can also use your buffing trap every day and leave them the responsibility of activating Private Sanctum. Include traps and pitfalls where the adventurers would be fighting. Have a few (Un)Hallows active to affect creatures of your faith and alignment with Freedom of Movement so long as they remain within. Have permanent Dimensional Lock effects so adventurers cannot teleport, access extradimensional storage such as Bags of Holding, and cannot use Rope Trick; it should be projected by a custom magic item, and individuals who possess a special key can bypass its effect. There should be permanent Walls of Greater Dispel Magic between every room to run adventurers out of buffs.

Powerful creatures have minions, and lesser creatures who tag along looking for table scraps. Several dozen Ethereal Filchers prowl around outside the lair. They hide ethereally within the rocks so even See Invisibility cannot detect them. They can move out and jaunt to the material plane, Slight of Hand an object, and jaunt back ethereal as a free action, then drop prone as another free action to pass beneath the ground and be once again undetectable. They've been at this for so long that they know what adventurers are up to, they can recognize if someone has a readied action, and they will never put themselves in harm's way. Note that if it makes the DC 20 Slight of Hand check it gets the item, regardless of whether it was noticed, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. They're particularly fond of necklaces, and will take holy symbols, spellbooks, and spell component pouches because the dragon will trade them highly desirable baubles for any of those things they steal. They won't go into the lair due to the Dimensional Lock effect.

There should be several Simulacra lairs, each of which should have some sort of overlook with tiny windows. The only way between this overlook and your inner sanctum is through another tiny window. When adventurers engage a Simulacrum, you go to the tiny window viewing the overlook, cast Project Image, and use the image to cast spells through the windows of the overlook as the adventurers are fighting your Simulacrum. Focus on dispelling their buffs, inflicting lasting effects like Exhaustion and ability damage/drain on them, and herding them into pit traps and deadfalls. There could be multiple Simulacra in a given room, perhaps three, who speak well-rehearsed lines in unison such as, "Which of us is the real one?!" Adventurers would likely try to focus on one of them at a time, so they should use Benign Transposition, Mislead, etc. to confuse them and force them to switch targets as much as possible.

A lair could have a foot of murky water on the floor, with pits hundreds of feet deep hidden beneath, and creatures like Hydras with Snatch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#snatch), Improved Snatch, and Multisnatch, or advanced Monstrous Crabs (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) lurking below. There should be more permanent Wall of Dispel Magic across the top of each pit and a Permanency Stinking Cloud just below, making it difficult for someone to escape or be rescued. There could also be basic pit traps on the floor, hidden by Permanent Image illusions, and nobody would even get a saving throw until someone had fallen in; they won't be searching for traps during a fight with a Simulacrum that they believe to be the primary inhabitant of the lair. There could be several 15 ft. square holes, 15 ft. deep, with an Advanced Gelatinous Cube in each one, hidden by a Permanent Image of the floor. Anyone who walks onto a cube would automatically be engulfed as per walking into it, thus it makes an effective way to take someone out of the fight, plus the cubes can be used for waste disposal.

Lots of traps, lots of minions, and lots of ways to use up adventurers' spells and other limited resources, and ways to prevent them from resting via teleporting out or using Rope Trick. Make them think they're at the final encounter so they use their best stuff multiple times; the first Simulacrum fight should do that regardless of appearance, the second should look much more grand and pose a greater threat, the third can be multiple Simulacra, etc. If they do leave to rest, scry them out and send summoned/called creatures, disposable minions, etc. to keep them from resting, or inform the Ethereal Filchers of their location.
While effective, this is only suitable for good aligned dragons. Evil dragons need more evil methods. Plus this isn't detailed enough. There's a number of scenarios in which this strategy could be useless (I've got a bunch of ways to slay (name of creature) documents somewhere on my computer for d and d, and a few of the more enthusiastic strategies could beat this with some changes), and what if your not a great wyrm with enough resources to pull it off. However, I congratulate you on how effective this would be against PCs who are not me or the people I DM for (we are the role playing munchkin type of player under the DMs Player Categorization Manual version 2)

[Gavinfoxx]

A 60ft wide moat of lava.

An anti-magic field in the middle.

PCs fly across. PCs die. Also: built-in alarm system (their screaming lavaey deaths)

Or they could, you know, just run over the lava. You don't sink in the stuff, it's FREAKING ROCK, you just stand and burn from it, you don't sink. And PCs have enough hit points to run over lava, taking fire and smoke damage all the while, anyway... until they are out of the antimagic field, at which point they fly again.

[Eldest]

Or they could, you know, just run over the lava. You don't sink in the stuff, it's FREAKING ROCK, you just stand and burn from it, you don't sink. And PCs have enough hit points to run over lava, taking fire and smoke damage all the while, anyway... until they are out of the antimagic field, at which point they fly again.

It's liquid rock. Sorta in the definition. You will sink in it. It is only two to three times as dense as water.

[Wings of Peace]

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thread_Necromancy_3038.jpg

[Gavinfoxx]

It's liquid rock. Sorta in the definition. You will sink in it. It is only two to three times as dense as water.

Actually.... not really. it's only barely liquid. Its certainly denser than liquids that you can't sink in...

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/12/the-right-and-wrong-way-to-die-when-you-fall-into-lava/

[Zombulian]

Not sure if someone else said this. But you need some way to protect yourself from shivering touch! That is the bane of all dragons and could easily do you in! Find some way to increase your touch AC or become immune to ability draining effects?
Edit: *FACEPAAAALM* I didn't know what scintillating scales did until a sec ago. Also the first 2 responses were soooo long :smallwink: ADHD RAAARGH

[Gavinfoxx]

Not sure if someone else said this. But you need some way to protect yourself from shivering touch! That is the bane of all dragons and could easily do you in! Find some way to increase your touch AC or become immune to ability draining effects?

Or to cold. And Scintillating Scales was one of the first things mentioned!

Edit: The third reply, actually.

[OracleofWuffing]

Convert your horde into copper pieces.

If someone still goes through the trouble to get your horde then, well, there's nothing you could have done to stop them.

[Eldest]

Actually.... not really. it's only barely liquid. Its certainly denser than liquids that you can't sink in...

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/12/the-right-and-wrong-way-to-die-when-you-fall-into-lava/

Huh. Learn something new every day, then.

[Slipperychicken]

The title is wrong. This is a Thread Zombie... (6 months is thread necro, right?)

[Wings of Peace]

The title is wrong. This is a Thread Zombie... (6 months is thread necro, right?)

Close. Six -weeks- by my understanding.

[Zombieboots]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwMxtzxncjI#t=00m48s

Yep. I couldn't help myself.

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

Wow. Awesome.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Find a nice, comfy demiplane which is proof against all planar travel via un/hallow and dimension lock -- one way to ward against people wishing their way in is to make all the two-dimensional wall of force tunnels far too small for anyone above Fine size to get in, and then use shapeshifting magic to inhabit when you're there; if anyone tries to use the "regardless of local conditions" caveat of wish to teleport in, or fail to be Fine size prior to entering via portal, they'll be cut to bits by the infinitely thin ribbons of force energy. (Make sure to keep a spellblade (wish) on you at all times, preferably a poison ring, from Dragon Compendium.) The only way into the demiplane is through a portal to another demiplane, this one with an extremely slow time trait -- say, one billion years on the Material Plane equals one round on the demiplane. The only way to enter the plane without being basically time-locked forever is to cast planar bubble first.

I'm sure I could think up a LOT more ways to protect against these things, but it's time for bed.

[Gruftzwerg]

The worst nightmare I could ever give to party was this:

- the group was gathering info about the Dragon & the lair
- they where told that there is a certain person who seems to know much about the area and even tells "tales" about the Dragon & his lair.
- they find him and convince/pay him to lead the group to the lair
- when they arrive at the (fake?) lair they are trapped
- the person that lead the group to the lair was just the DRAGON in DISGUISE (Alternate Form)

Combine this with the fake lair and let your group have a lil nightmare ;)

edit: saw it to late, but I guess this thread is dead & was necroed.. sry

[DracoknightZero]

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thread_Necromancy_3038.jpg

There be necromancers afoot >_>

[flappeercraft]

Wow. Awesome.

Great True Ressurection on the thread