So I've got a paladin, a grappler, and a Druid...

[Dragon Star]

So I recently started a new campaign, my first real experience at DMing. It went fine, but the players are as the title suggests. I'm a little worried about this. The grappler knows some about optimizing, but doesn't really do it, the pally knows nothing, and the druid never looks at guides or anything, but is an old player. Everything he chooses is just naturally optimized. In the first session, he started gathering an army of animals. He was responsible for half the kills. He's the one that came up with all the plans. Now I'm not looking for a way to screw him over. The other players are generally OK wit being a little overshadowed, and the druid is a good team player. What I want is a way to make the other two a bit more powerful. I was looking at this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193554 for the paladin, and I wanted some suggestions like this for the dwarf grappler, and more things similar to it. Stuff which doesn't require a drastic overhaul. Magic items, feats, ACFs, homebrew or not. Thanks in advance!

[[CLASSIFIED]]

I'm no great scholar of TOB classes, but the Paladin might want to check out the Crusader class.

[Silva Stormrage]

Well it would be helpful to know the grappeler's class in order to help with him and what level we are talking about here? Level 1?

The paladin homebrew looks good but may be a bit complicated for a beginner player. You might want to look at the pathfinder paladin.

For the Druid, what do you mean by "Army of Animals". As in summoning them? Using Animal Handling?

[Dragon Star]

Sorry, I should have been clearer...

I doubt the paladin or the fighter (grappler) want to switch classes. The paladin isn't a new player, just doesn't optimize. The army of animals means that he used handle animal and wild empathy to get three dogs working for the enemy to join him. He thinks he's going to continue along this path, trying to get tons of weak animals to permanently follow him. Also, what about this? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30692

[Silva Stormrage]

That one looks interesting but I think I agree with classified that they should look at Crusader and Warblade. The best thing is, they don't HAVE to switch, Paladin 2/Crusader X is a fine build due to cha to saves and other such things. if you don't have or don't want TOB then thats fine but those classes are very well done in my opinion.

[Dragon Star]

I have TOB and I am fine with it, I just doubt that either of them will want to use it. The paladin's backstory includes a 18th level paladin as his father, so I don't think he wants to multiclass. He wants the flavor of a paladin. And the grappler has already planed out what PrC he is taking. I'll talk to them, but I think they want to stick with their classes. I doubt they would object to some class or feat fixes though.

[Gavinfoxx]

How does he know what class his father is? Really?

[Dragon Star]

How does he know what class his father is? Really?

You know what I mean. "A great crusader, champion of justice, Leader of the Shining Legion, slayer of whatever big bad thing"
out of game, a high level paladin.

[NNescio]

You know what I mean. "A great crusader, champion of justice, Leader of the Shining Legion, slayer of whatever big bad thing"
out of game, a high level paladin.

Equally valid for a high level crusader.

[Metahuman1]

My suggestion, maybe introduce an NPC for the Paladin, who trained with him and was once a close friend of the paladins father at one time when he was younger. Have the NPC be a multyclass Crusader/Paladin, and have him give some training too the Paladin member of the party. Even if he only takes one level of Crusader, it still ups him that much in terms of relevance by simple matter of the power of Martial maneuvers. He can still take Paladin levels aplenty, and he'll have access to things like Thicket of Blades and Mountain hammer. Just make sure he doesn't have to actually say anything in character when he uses a maneuver, just tell you out of character that he's doing it, same way he does when he casts a paladin spell. It's a one level dip that would go a long way to help. If he's up for other dips, I'd suggest offering a dip in Warblade to get Iron Heart Surge (Which is badass too a devoted paladin who's powered by faith if you just fluff it that way.), and a dip into Barbarian with the alignment restrictions waved and the fluffed thrown out the door. Fluff Pounce, AND rage (or whatever variant he goes with if he takes this option.) as a sort of Zealous Wrath and Fury. Make Wolf Totem more of a Divine Representative and let him get the trip feat for free if he want's to do that to make himself more versitial.

Personally, I think Paladin 16/Crusader 1/ Warblade 1/Re-fluffed Barbarian Spirit lion and Wolf totem barbarian 2 would make for a fun and versitial melee build, particularly if you also tweak his mount progression so that it stays at least as powerful as the druids animal companion, maybe even a step or two above animal companions power level, and give him the Tireless and one too two hits of the extra rage feats for free for completing a Role Playing challenge of some kind.

And yes, finding a Paladin class fix is another way to do it, but this might be easier on everyone since all it requires is a bit of tweaking, a few freebie feats form the Dm so that a resource is viable, and some use of splat books and re-fluffing. Heck, it took me 20 minutes to think this part up and type it out.

That will cover your knight in Shining armor.



As for your grappler. First, I'd give him a one level dip into Warblade for Iron Heart Surge just on principle. Second, if you have Players Handbook II, give him an affiliation, maybe an order of martial combatants who follow a certain set of fighting schools. Have it give him Size bonuses too grapple checks topping out at collossal or collossal+ as a membership benefit. Note: This is not an actual increase to his size, its a "when he's Grappling/other purposes that you both agree too, he's treated as X sizes bigger then he is."

I would also recommend getting him Monk Unarmed progress for damage, and jacking that up in the same manner. Maybe also do this with Bullrush (see below.)

Getting him to large size as his normal size category will also unlock throw ally/enemy and Knockback, and adding in Power attack, improved bulls rush and Rampaging Bullsrush would allow him a number of options for things to do to any enemy during a round. If you really wanna max this out, have him take the Dungeon Crasher Alternative class feature form Dungeon Scape.

Other things would be to get him around eating AOO's when he closes with an enemy, and rule that Power attacks can be made unarmed. (Seriously, is it that hard to fluff it as an extra savage punch/knee/kick/elbow to the face? Or a really committed throw+body-slam combo?) He should have fun being able to lock things down and throw them around the battle field as desired.

Also, look at the Tattooed Monk, and make the Tattoos a fighter class feature, but add new ones, maybe one for x number of greater magic weapon uses based on his fighter level, and maybe another for Fly, and improve some existing ones like crab, make it DR vs - or Adimatin (I know, I miss spelled it, bear with.) in place of Dr/Magic. Re-fluff as needed.

From there, just help him Jack his Str and Con up as much as he can and work on making as many other attributes as irrelevant as possible by having those Stats fuel the things the other Stats normally fuel. Great example is Steadfast Determination, which let's you dump Wis altogether since it makes it so Con fuels Will Save in it's place.

And yes, I know, I sound like a munchkin, but the idea here is to get them competitive with the Teir 1 Druid and keep them there.

[Dragon Star]

...Wow. Thank you. That is a ton of stuff I can use. The reason I was looking for modifications to the classes was because I'm not sure I could get them to use a specific build. But I'll email them your post, see what they think.

[T.G. Oskar]

My suggestion, maybe introduce an NPC for the Paladin, who trained with him and was once a close friend of the paladins father at one time when he was younger. Have the NPC be a multyclass Crusader/Paladin, and have him give some training too the Paladin member of the party. Even if he only takes one level of Crusader, it still ups him that much in terms of relevance by simple matter of the power of Martial maneuvers. He can still take Paladin levels aplenty, and he'll have access to things like Thicket of Blades and Mountain hammer. Just make sure he doesn't have to actually say anything in character when he uses a maneuver, just tell you out of character that he's doing it, same way he does when he casts a paladin spell. It's a one level dip that would go a long way to help. If he's up for other dips, I'd suggest offering a dip in Warblade to get Iron Heart Surge (Which is badass too a devoted paladin who's powered by faith if you just fluff it that way.), and a dip into Barbarian with the alignment restrictions waved and the fluffed thrown out the door. Fluff Pounce, AND rage (or whatever variant he goes with if he takes this option.) as a sort of Zealous Wrath and Fury. Make Wolf Totem more of a Divine Representative and let him get the trip feat for free if he want's to do that to make himself more versitial.

Personally, I think Paladin 16/Crusader 1/ Warblade 1/Re-fluffed Barbarian Spirit lion and Wolf totem barbarian 2 would make for a fun and versitial melee build, particularly if you also tweak his mount progression so that it stays at least as powerful as the druids animal companion, maybe even a step or two above animal companions power level, and give him the Tireless and one too two hits of the extra rage feats for free for completing a Role Playing challenge of some kind.

And yes, finding a Paladin class fix is another way to do it, but this might be easier on everyone since all it requires is a bit of tweaking, a few freebie feats form the Dm so that a resource is viable, and some use of splat books and re-fluffing. Heck, it took me 20 minutes to think this part up and type it out.

That will cover your knight in Shining armor.

I'd consider that pretty heavy houseruling. Heck, the "refluffed" Spirit Lion/Wolf Totem Barbarian for the dip? That alone is a homebrewed variant. I find it odd to oppose a homebrewed class in terms of "making things simpler" when that is far more complex than just going for the "fix".

Speaking of the fix (more so because it's a defense of my work), the Project Heretica Paladin isn't THAT complex. It does make it less frontloaded (given that the class doesn't get Divine Grace up to 11th level and whatnot), but it's pretty solid if the character is guided decently. The important stats for the Paladin are Charisma (for just about everything), Strength (for the smites and offensive qualities) and Constitution (for HP, Fort and auras).

Smite-wise, there are five choices the character can get:
Blinding. This smite has a longer duration, effectively takes away one combatant from battle, and is formidable in cases of undead characters or light-sensitive characters (aka Orcs, Drow and Fungi)
Resounding is a bit of a late bloomer but eventually turns into an area-of-effect attack. It's great to move enemies away from allies, and later on it causes serious damage on a wide range.
Stunning, which is quite good. Used with an attack of opportunity, it effectively locks down enemies for at least 1 round, which should be enough to have the Druid take the enemy down.
Charging, which works if the Paladin loves charging. Since it works alongside mounted charges, it's great if the player wants the mount flavor but still do some serious damage. It gives pounce later on, if that also worries you.
Ranged, which is more of an addition than a proper smite. Basically, you can use your smites at a range, first with ranged weapons and then even with melee weapons.

While it does resemble a bit what a maneuver can do, you don't have to worry that much about the cycling of Crusader maneuvers or whether they're recharged or not; 1/encounter + 1 for every 5 class levels, and you can use Extra Smite to add extra encounter uses. So it'll see many more uses.

Spell-wise, you don't prepare them; you cast them like Favored Souls do, but with a smaller list. Thus, you choose what's appropriate and what's best for scrolls or wands. The first few levels do well with Guidance, Resistance and probably Cure Minor Wounds (works wonders with Vigor). Later on, work it much like a Favored Soul does: choose one or two spells that will always have use (such as Protection from Evil) and have the rest on wands.

Aura-wise, it all depends. Since the group is comprised of a Druid and a grappling Fighter, you may want to ignore Consecration (it's mostly good for undead). Vigor will make healing less of a chore, Devotion adds to everyone's defenses (including the army of animals of the Druid) and takes damage for them (the Druid will LOVE that). Retribution isn't as hot unless the character has some serious ways to dish some damage.

Finally, the 4th level ability can be exchanged. If the player wants the feel of a mount, you can give him the Valiant Steed ACF for a MUCH better steed. There's also a better enchanted weapon (a la Pathfinder), the ability to fly, and better version of the Dungeonscape ACF.

Now, I could accept if the player doesn't want to use the class as presented, but making something a bit more convoluted, still requiring houseruling and homebrewing, just because the content is basically 85% new material really sounds condescending. Just saying. If the player is intent in using the PHB Paladin, do consider a few things:
Allow him to use the Cleric spell list alongside the Paladin. The Project Heretica Paladin does that, and nearly triples the benefits of the Paladin. Also, full caster level.
Replace Remove Disease with bonus feats. The Paladin is feat-starved. More feats = good.

That should give the Paladin player a boost, even without a full-fledged homebrew. That is even simpler than the idea mentioned above, even with a Crusader dip for maneuvers.

[Soranar]

If you're strickly using ACF (and not going for Dragon material or homebrews)

here's my advice

first, choose whether you cast spells or not

reason why you want to cast spells

-sword of the arcane order (it's a feat, cast like a wizard, needs INT)
-combined with paladin of mystra (could be called something else, I forget the specifics, basically he casts his spell at paladin level /2 +2 instead of simply /2)

pros

-more versatility due to access to arcane spells (mostly interesting buffs like enlarge person)

cons

-requires more stats (at least 14 Int and Wis)
-eats up feats (you'll want the feat that automatically quickens paladin spells for this build)

Or (my favorite)

play a spelless paladin (holy warrior alternate class feature from Complete Champion)

pros

-gives you feats instead of eating them
-frees up 3 stats (no need for WIS, you become a STR , CON, CHA build)
-you can now take mage slayer feats without a drawback

cons

-you lose some versatility

Other interesting features:

To smite evil or not to smite evil

1rst option (regular smite evil)

-doesn't work vs everything
-only powerful when multiplied (mostly in a mounted charge while using a lance, on a crit or both)
-when it works it really works (when used on a spirited charge, likely to 1 shot your opponent)

2nd option (from smite to song feat)

-you become a bard of equal level for inspire courage (best inspiration anyway)
-you can also optimize it (through extra smites, dragonfire inspiration, etc)
to get even more out of it (also helps your own attacks more than any other feat)
-only drawback is that is eats 1 or 2 feats (you might want to take extra smites to make it worth the trouble)
-pumps the whole group instead of simply yourself (if you're the only melee character you might want to reconsider it)

3rd option (play a half-orc paladin with the 1rst substitution level, in this case I recommend the desert half orc from UA as it has no CHA penalty, you can also take the dragonborn of bahamut template on top of it)

-gives you a decent buff to melee (CHA bonus round of duration is way better than a 1 shot smite evil, the damage also progresses by level)
-works vs anything (superior to regular smite evil in every way)
-doesn't eat ut feats (but it forces you to play a half orc)

finally, the warforged paladin

-doesn't need CHA (uses CON to determince lay on hards and bonus to will saves, stacks with steadfast determination should you take it)
-benefits the most from the UA class feature that replaces turn undead for favored enemy (this way you can drop CHA altogether)
-if you top that with a spelless paladin (from complete champion) you're a d10 full bab class with immunity to stunning, healing capabilities, a mount, bonus feats and no need for any mental stat. Basically a lawful good barb with defensive options instead of offensive ones.
-if you play a 32 pts build, you essentially have 18 STR and 20 CON with little to no drawbacks

Cons
-you lose turn undead shenanigans (which fuel devotion feats)

Best build for a human (in my opinion)

-drop spellcasting altogether (thats what wizards/clerics are for anyway)
-maximize CHA (fuels every interesting ability you have)
-never give up your mount (it can get insanely powerful, charging with a lance if always worth it, use the improved mounts feats like dragon mount)
-get the mage slayer feats if you're allowed flaws (you become a high save nightmare to spellcasters, that's what a paladin should be)
-use devotions feats (water for a summon, travel for pounce, animal for rage like abilities and law for the extra oumph)

EDIT : almost forgot

ALWAYS trade remove disease / week for spellshatter/day (greater dispel magic targeted to a creature you attack = to a wizard of same level)

[Groverfield]

Tell your druid that, in the interest of fairness, you'll only let him grow an army of CLx2 HD's worth of animal, as to balance it with a cleric's undead or leadership, tell him it's not as much about gimping him as it is about letting the entire party flourish.

[SowZ]

Don't let a player play a tier one class only to screw him over. Limit him, somehow. Give him less as far as useful magical items. Or talk to him and say that he will get fewer points in point buy.

[Dragon Star]

Don't let a player play a tier one class only to screw him over. Limit him, somehow. Give him less as far as useful magical items. Or talk to him and say that he will get fewer points in point buy.

My point was to make the other player more powerful, so I don't have to nerf the Druid.

[begooler]

I would allow the other two players to shine not by modifying them, but by throwing out encounters that give them opportunity to show off what they do have.
For example casters who need to be grappled before things go boom. Undead to turn. Damage reduction to be overcome by good.
At the same time, throw out a few extra challenges for the druid, since his class is more versatile, and he seems to be more experienced. The enemy has charm animal for example. The enemy has spell resistance and DR/magic.
The main reason that the other characters are weaker than the druid is that their classes are less versatile. So, go out of your way to pick encounters where the paladin and fighter's abilities are useful.

[riddles]

Or you could, y'knoe, fireball the druid's pets. They're chuff, after all.

Also remember that it is a standard action to handle an animal that is not his animal companion. He won't be casting spells or eating face if he's ordering a pack of dogs around.

[Feytalist]

Aberrations, undead, outsiders. Druid can't do much with those.

Also, I just want to say the thread's title sounds like the lead-in to an awesome joke.

[SowZ]

My point was to make the other player more powerful, so I don't have to nerd the Druid.

Okay. Just be careful. Sometimes DMs will try and balance out a weaker party member with items and such and will end up overcompensating. Better characters and better builds should be rewarded. I know your party isn't optimized, but it's considered poor form to scale monsters up in HP to totally nullify new damage dealing sources the party has discovered in the same way that it's considered poor form to give certain classes enough bonuses as to counter-act the advantages of other classes, (or worse, overcompensate so much that a formerly weak companion gains some items making them more powerful then everyone at just about any combat!)

I'm not insulting your DMing ability, just pointing out something to watch for and make sure you don't do.

[Gnaeus]

Or you could, y'knoe, fireball the druid's pets. They're chuff, after all.


That was my thought too. Or have an adventure in an undead area that natural animals will not enter, but the animal companion will. Not nerfing the druid is one thing, and I agree with it. Having him drag around multiple free NPC cohorts is something else.

[Divide by Zero]

The army of animals means that he used handle animal and wild empathy to get three dogs working for the enemy to join him. He thinks he's going to continue along this path, trying to get tons of weak animals to permanently follow him.

I would try to dissuade him from this path, even without considering the overshadowing issues. At higher levels, a swarm of weak mooks will be almost useless, and making over nine thousand attack rolls every turn is going to horrendously slow down combat and make the other players bored.

[Gnaeus]

You could even drop a not-very subtle hint, like:

"Hey, turning their guard dogs against them was a good idea. Good use of class abilities, kudos. If you keep walking around with an army of animals expecting them to die horribly fighting your enemies, that might not exactly qualify as showing reverence for nature. Lets not go there, okay? Because stripping class abilities sucks and I REALY don't want to....."

[Ardantis]

I don't have much to say about Paladins, I don't play them usually (and don't most people just PrC out ASAP?)

The grappler, however, I can comment on, having played three completely useless grapplers in the past.

My first grappler was level one for a one-shot, the DM hadn't yet accepted the fact that DnD is fairly unplayable, at least for one-shots, below lvl 3. His problem was that, even though he'd taken grapple feats (Improved Unarmed Strike, one of the Complete Warrior feats and pre-req), he ended up running around with a greatsword for the entire thing because it was just so much more effective. Grapplers can be slow to grow into their own, and may have to experiment with tactics against some enemies.

My second grappler was a half-orc around lvl 10, I think, and he had some divine belt of Kord which gave him an absurd strength and a grapple bonus. It was one of those items that you need a divine feat just to wear. Anyways, he pretzeled up a few Manticores, which was awesome, but his AC was so low that missing a grapple attempt against an Ogre King resulted in a pretty serious greatsword crit to the head. Remember to find ways to avoid damage, even at the expense of having insane grapple modifiers.

Thirdly, I built a dwarven grappler with armor spikes and a ton of cool feats for a game in which he was designed to be dropped onto enemies like a bomb from an ally's flying carpet. Although that game never got off the ground (argument over snacks), I realized later that the character had very little way to deal with the grapple bonuses of opponents larger than him. A dragon would have smooshed him, purely because of the grapple modifiers.

In Short:

- The grappler will have to experiment with tactics more than the other characters, who have abilities which work more naturally especially early on.

- The grappler NEEDS some sort of evasion from attacks, be it AC, avoiding AoOs, or perhaps distraction by teammates.

- The grappler NEEDS to overcome the size differences between him and enemies. There is a feat in CW which helps this, but I think it is just as important to find ways to increase the grappler's size (actual or mechanical). Also bear in mind that he has access to feats normally only for Monks like Snap Kick and Roundabout Kick to improve his attacks (which may or may not be ruled to work in a grapple).

I still have a soft spot for grapplers, and think they are hella cool. Happy grappling!

[Dragon Star]

You could even drop a not-very subtle hint, like:

"Hey, turning their guard dogs against them was a good idea. Good use of class abilities, kudos. If you keep walking around with an army of animals expecting them to die horribly fighting your enemies, that might not exactly qualify as showing reverence for nature. Lets not go there, okay? Because stripping class abilities sucks and I REALY don't want to....."

Well, the first dog was injured and he healed it, which is why he even was able to get it to like him. He hasn't used them as cannon fodder yet, though if/when he does I will probably do this.


Also, as I suspected, the fighter doesn't want to switch classes. Dunno about the paladin.

[Gavinfoxx]

So have you all read this?

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870826/Black_Blood_Cultist_Handbook:_A_Grapplers_Manual

Just saying. Maybe steal some abilities from that?

[SowZ]

I don't have much to say about Paladins, I don't play them usually (and don't most people just PrC out ASAP?)

The grappler, however, I can comment on, having played three completely useless grapplers in the past.

My first grappler was level one for a one-shot, the DM hadn't yet accepted the fact that DnD is fairly unplayable, at least for one-shots, below lvl 3. His problem was that, even though he'd taken grapple feats (Improved Unarmed Strike, one of the Complete Warrior feats and pre-req), he ended up running around with a greatsword for the entire thing because it was just so much more effective. Grapplers can be slow to grow into their own, and may have to experiment with tactics against some enemies.

My second grappler was a half-orc around lvl 10, I think, and he had some divine belt of Kord which gave him an absurd strength and a grapple bonus. It was one of those items that you need a divine feat just to wear. Anyways, he pretzeled up a few Manticores, which was awesome, but his AC was so low that missing a grapple attempt against an Ogre King resulted in a pretty serious greatsword crit to the head. Remember to find ways to avoid damage, even at the expense of having insane grapple modifiers.

Thirdly, I built a dwarven grappler with armor spikes and a ton of cool feats for a game in which he was designed to be dropped onto enemies like a bomb from an ally's flying carpet. Although that game never got off the ground (argument over snacks), I realized later that the character had very little way to deal with the grapple bonuses of opponents larger than him. A dragon would have smooshed him, purely because of the grapple modifiers.

In Short:

- The grappler will have to experiment with tactics more than the other characters, who have abilities which work more naturally especially early on.

- The grappler NEEDS some sort of evasion from attacks, be it AC, avoiding AoOs, or perhaps distraction by teammates.

- The grappler NEEDS to overcome the size differences between him and enemies. There is a feat in CW which helps this, but I think it is just as important to find ways to increase the grappler's size (actual or mechanical). Also bear in mind that he has access to feats normally only for Monks like Snap Kick and Roundabout Kick to improve his attacks (which may or may not be ruled to work in a grapple).

I still have a soft spot for grapplers, and think they are hella cool. Happy grappling!

I would have uber respect for a grecco style wrestler who took vow of poverty and fought totally naked.

[Gavinfoxx]

You do know that the Greeks and Romans who REALLY had to fight via grappling -- like not for sport -- used the heaviest armor they could? Grappling is a fighting style MEANT for armor use... being armored doesn't lower your ability to grapple, and armor protects you from non-grappling based attacks that might come your way as you are, you know, about to grapple or not yet close enough to grapple.

[Ardantis]

I would also mad respect a naked VoP wrestler.

I have no idea whether or not Greeks and Romans wrestled in armor. Still, both ideas are hella sweet.

[Gavinfoxx]

Sure they did! On the battlefield, that's what wrestling is FOR. Close hand to hand combat if you are wearing armor. In the arena, different clothes can be worn, ya know?

[Talya]

Also remember that it is a standard action to handle an animal that is not his animal companion. He won't be casting spells or eating face if he's ordering a pack of dogs around.

Unless he's got Initiate of Nature. This gives him Rebuke/Control animals the same way an evil cleric gets it for undead...