Who would win: Asmodeus or Yog-Sothoth? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

rayne_dragon

2011-07-27, 08:23 PM

holywhippet

2011-07-27, 08:31 PM

That's not exactly a reasonable comparison. All Cthulhu type gods in D&D are located in the far realms. You'd need to compare Asmodeus to something from there, problem is I don't think the far realms were covered much in 3rd edition - only as a supplement for Eberron.

Urpriest

2011-07-27, 08:33 PM

Asmodeus, as a cleric, can get Deathward. Can Yoggie's touch attack still kill him then?

Also, chain-gating evil Titans should have some impact.

Tvtyrant

2011-07-27, 08:34 PM

faceroll

2011-07-27, 08:43 PM

Yog-Sothoth. Time travel pwns.

Lord Loss

2011-07-27, 08:47 PM

Yog-Sothoth. Teleports back in time, stops Asmodeus from ever being created.

Fluff-wise, at least, Yog-Sothoth makes anything in D&D seem like a mewling kitten. He doesn't master time, he is time. His power is beyond the scope of understanding, mortal or otherwise.

As stated by another poster, anything truly powerful from the CoC mythos is realms more powerful than anything D&D can throw at you. They simply aren't comparable. Going by fluff, not rules. Rules-wise, I'd need more info on both.

Urpriest

2011-07-27, 08:48 PM

Yog-Sothoth. Time travel pwns.

Actually yeah, this is probably going to be the deciding factor. You'd need Dicefreaks Asmodeus to give him a chance against that.

Kojiro

2011-07-27, 08:49 PM

Not looking into their respective mechanics but just what they are, Yog-Sothoth, yes. Heck, Yog-Sothoth could probably empty an entire level of Baator easily.

Using D&D mechanics, though, a level 20 caster without the insane fiendish stuff is obscenely strong. Asmodeus probably has the advantage there, since with enough spell abuse at that level you can basically kill anything with stats.

tyckspoon

2011-07-27, 08:58 PM

Using D&D mechanics, though, a level 20 caster without the insane fiendish stuff is obscenely strong. Asmodeus probably has the advantage there, since with enough spell abuse at that level you can basically kill anything with stats.

If you were talking about an optimized level 20 fullcaster designed with the intent of taking on Yog-Sototh, you *might* have a chance, although I suspect Yoggy is probably written such that he'll blow through any puny mortal protections you care to put up (pending actually seeing a CoC d20 book, which I probably am not going to.) We're not talking about one of those. We're talking about a pre-written NPC, who is designed in such a way that he is approachable by not-especially-optimized PCs. Yoggy stomps all over him, not least because Asmodeus as presented in the Fiendish Codex has no means of interacting with an enemy a mile away from him. Yog steps back through time to a point where Asmodeus doesn't have up whatever spell is preventing him from being instantly obliterated and death-touches Asmodeus from a mile out, gg.

@ OP- seriously how was this even a question.

Lord Loss

2011-07-27, 09:02 PM

If you were talking about an optimized level 20 fullcaster designed with the intent of taking on Yog-Sototh, you *might* have a chance, although I suspect Yoggy is probably written such that he'll blow through any puny mortal protections you care to put up (pending actually seeing a CoC d20 book, which I probably am not going to.) We're not talking about one of those. We're talking about a pre-written NPC, who is designed in such a way that he is approachable by not-especially-optimized PCs. Yoggy stomps all over him, not least because Asmodeus as presented in the Fiendish Codex has no means of interacting with an enemy a mile away from him. Yog steps back through time to a point where Asmodeus doesn't have up whatever spell is preventing him from being instantly obliterated and death-touches Asmodeus from a mile out, gg.

Asmodeus is more powerful than Fiendish Codex Asmodeus. BoVD has a more powerful aspect of him, and those are just aspects of him, not his true form. I still think Yoggie would wipe the floor with Asmodeus, though, just because of their completely different power levels, fluff-wise.

The reason the mechanics might make Asmodeus win is because they were never designed for play in the same game. CoC d20 has the investigators as near powerless even at higher levels, so there's no reason to make the monsters omnipotent, whilst D&D has monsters prepared to take on adventurers with a bucket-load of abilities. Were Yog-Sothoth designed with D&D in mind, his mechanics would probably be very different, and far, far more powerful.

holywhippet

2011-07-27, 09:22 PM

The reason the mechanics might make Asmodeus win is because they were never designed for play in the same game. CoC d20 has the investigators as near powerless even at higher levels, so there's no reason to make the monsters omnipotent, whilst D&D has monsters prepared to take on adventurers with a bucket-load of abilities. Were Yog-Sothoth designed with D&D in mind, his mechanics would probably be very different, and far, far more powerful.

I was once told something along these lines - when it comes to Cthulhu, combat against anything with actual power is a really bad idea. If you fight, you die. If you fight with a company of marines backing you up, you die in good company.

Lord Loss

2011-07-27, 09:29 PM

Indeed. The most powerful thing you can expect to survive in a fair fight in Call of Cthulhu is some of the weakest monsters (say, a Hound of Tindalos) and you have to be A) very powerful and B) know what you're dealing with beforehand. Other stuff can only be dispelled whilst it's being summoned, or sent back to its realm shortyl after summoning.

In any of the above scenarios, you're more often than not walking out with quite a few dead buddies, so it just wouldn't be fair to design monsters on par with 3.5 monsters. Even by CoC standards.

faceroll

2011-07-27, 09:31 PM

Asmodeus is more powerful than Fiendish Codex Asmodeus.

That's not what this thread is about, though.

peacenlove

2011-07-27, 11:42 PM

In D&D, a prepared 20th level cleric + obscene knowledge checks + wand of nessus + army of 1 million pit fiends with wish ready > anything. However both versions of Asmodeus in 3rd edition were created after the start of creation so a dedicated Yog-Sothoth would just kill him before he is created.

Fluff wise (Assuming both were intent of neutralizing each other):
Planescape Ahriman - Asmodeus vs Yog-Sothoth
Asmodeus wins no competition. If yog-sothoth teleports at the start of creation in order to kill asmodeus at birth, he will find out that ahriman is combined with jahriman, and they together created the multiverse.
Even separated, he is an overdeity (Serpent god? I dont remember the specifics) so he will put a good fight at the very least. And, laying a hand at the creation of the multiverse, a safe bet is that he could deny time traveling altogether.
Lastly Asmodeus intelligence is beyond mortal and immortal understanding. If he felt threatened, he would make sure Yog-Sothoth was never awakened, or at the very least, laid contigencies so he would never come to blows with him.

3.0 - 3.5 "Fallen Angel" Asmodeus vs Yog-Sothoth
Yog-Sothoth. There is no chance, no contigency Asmodeus can think of, with his current resources, that can stop free, unlimited time travel. Yog-Sothoth, if awakened, doesn't follow the rules.

Thiyr

2011-07-27, 11:44 PM

That's not what this thread is about, though.

True. At the same time, though, this thread is in that case really more a "Who wins, You-Sothoth or an Aspect of Asmodeus (as per the more recent Fiendish Codex II), which seems to not be the intent of this thread. That said, you're still very much left with the problem of this being a terribly lopsided fight. On the one hand, I want to give it to Asmodeus out of...well, how plain entertaining I find that archetype when done well, and how well Asmodeus is said to plan for everything (down to knowing every plot hatched against him outright). That said, this breaks down when faced with something that can just go back to before any preparations are made repeatedly, so it's a clear win for the time-traveler. pretty much, it's impossible to beat something that can at will go through time, full stop. Without that, it's an easy win for Asmodeus though. Heck, even if we limit it such that there can be no travel before a certain point, Asmodeus actually has something of a chance, though it's still a toss up considering the lack of relevant stats.

DeltaEmil

2011-07-28, 12:55 AM

Eh, Yog-Sothoth only does 1d8 dmg with its 12 attacks and can use psionic abilities. Also, he likes to abduct flower-picking princesses.

Maphreal

2011-07-28, 02:04 AM

Who would win between Asmodeus and Yog-Sothoth?

Azathoth.

If you go messing with the Gate and the Key, I doubt the Nuclear Chaos would be very pleased.

GoodbyeSoberDay

2011-07-28, 02:22 AM

I think Asmodeus would find a way to avoid the fight, but if it came to blows the time traveler generally wins.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-28, 03:44 AM

Azathoth.

I'm sorry, but someone who's titles include The Blind Idiot God and who lacks an Intelligence score (if fluff is anything to go by) doesn't win anything. Like, ever.

I'm voting on...Asmodeus, actually. Why? Because backwards time-travelling never, ever ends well for the time-traveller. Yog-Sothoth would go back in time to eliminate Asmodeus and then return to the Now and find himself staring down Lawful Good Nyarlathotep and Chaotic Good Shub-Niggurath wanting a piece of him for screwing up Space/time. So then the two will tag-team Yog until he goes back in time again and sets everything right.

On the other hand...

If Yog-Sothoth is coternimus will all time, and so it is meaningless to talk about "going back" and "now" in relation to him...then Asmodeus loses but ol' Yog doesn't really win as that implies a chance of him losing, which he didn't have.

Kojiro

2011-07-28, 04:05 AM

Azathoth could end worlds, if not galaxies, without any effort, really. It is more or less destruction personified, if you could use the word "person" in its description anywhere. Edit: It's also capable of hate, albeit the hate of pretty much everything, so I wouldn't argue that it lacks intelligence, personally. Sanity, by any standards, perhaps, but not intelligence.

Also, yes, Yog-Sothoth is coterminous with all time. All time. It is also, in fact, at least as powerful as Azathoth, but not as insane. Hence my saying that, if it is not limited by mechanics, Asmodeus has no chance.

Alleran

2011-07-28, 04:09 AM

Azathoth could end worlds, if not galaxies, without any effort, really. It is more or less destruction personified, if you could use the word "person" in its description anywhere.

Also, yes, Yog-Sothoth is coterminous with all time. All time. It is also, in fact, at least as powerful as Azathoth, but not as insane. Hence my saying that, if it is not limited by mechanics, Asmodeus has no chance.
I'm pretty sure Azathoth waking up actually means everything ends (purely as a side effect of his actually waking up in the first place, even), and that would include Yog-Sohoth, as powerful as he might be.

Kojiro

2011-07-28, 04:11 AM

Possibly. It's a bit hard to understand the great cosmic horrors and what they do exactly, I will admit.

Also, turns out Yog-Sothoth is coterminous with all space as well as all time. So, yeah. It's bad news.

gkathellar

2011-07-28, 07:12 AM

If you're comparing the numbers from these two incompatible game systems, probably Asmodeus because D&D does bigger numbers.

But by fluff, as people have said, pretty much any Mythos deity would wipe the floor with Asmodeus if it cared enough to do so. Which some of the Great Old Ones might, but the Outer Gods? Oh no. Yog-Sothoth wouldn't even notice Asmodeus, to say nothing of Azathoth, who dreamed up all of everything.

Nyarlathotep might deign to play around with Asmodeus, but that's because he pretty much is Asmodeus, except indestructible, all-powerful and functionally unstoppable.

Coidzor

2011-07-29, 01:25 AM

No one, any universe that has both Asmodeus & Yog-Sothoth in it is so borked that the "sane" portion of it would be as bad as the Far Realm seems to us.

charcoalninja

2011-07-29, 07:51 AM

Though Yoggy is time, Asmodeus is an incarnation of evil, and evil as a primal force isn't hindered by time, it is omnipresent. From a fluff point, Yoggy being a master of time wouldn't help him with the Nine Hells, Asmodeus has complete control over that plane of existence and everything within it, so I posit that Yoggy couldn't use any time shenanigans against Asmo while he is in the Nine Hells. Once this is stance is taken the fight becomes much more interesting and Asmo stands a solid chance of winning.

So without any silly time bouncing, which we can freely ignore anyway since Asmodeus hasn't been destroyed prior to being what he is, you now have the reality shattering power of miracles and other crazygonuts tricks like Astral Projection. I really like Astral Projection as a means of fighting Yoggy because it effectively removes Asmodeus from time as his body exists only in temporal stasis and its only his mind that's interacting in any way with the timestream.

So I vote Asmo. Time is awesome and all, but so's being a force of freakin nature.

Eldan

2011-07-29, 08:10 AM

That's not how it works. Asmodeus completely controls the Nine Hells? Go back before he controlled them.

Ravens_cry

2011-07-29, 08:26 AM

How could Evil have existed before life, much less intelligent life? A tsunami destroying a cliff may be destructive, but not evil. Asteroids slamming into a planet are pure acts of nature, no malice inherent or intended. Yog-Sothoth takes this one for me.

Alleran

2011-07-29, 08:30 AM

I really like Astral Projection as a means of fighting Yoggy because it effectively removes Asmodeus from time as his body exists only in temporal stasis and its only his mind that's interacting in any way with the timestream.
First, I'm fairly sure that temporal stasis merely protects your body from the ravages of time, not Yoggy's ability to affect him. Second, if he's interacting with the time stream, he's interacting with the time stream. Yog-Sothoth is time (and space, too). If Asmodeus is a primal force of evil, then Yoggy is the primal force of space-time within the multiverse, which includes evil as a part of it. At his best, Asmodeus would never be more than a part of Yog-Sothoth.

"It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self — not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence's whole unbounded sweep — the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign..."

"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth's fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread."

He exists across all space and all time, and can freely move to and alter any part of it as he pleases. He is, for all intents and purposes, omnipotent and omniscient (though not in any way that would be comprehensible to a mortal mind).

Eldan

2011-07-29, 08:33 AM

The Astral Plane is interesting, though. In D&D, it specifically exists outside Time and Space, as it has neither, only a vague approximation.

Alleran

2011-07-29, 09:00 AM

The Astral Plane is interesting, though. In D&D, it specifically exists outside Time and Space, as it has neither, only a vague approximation.
I would say that it is still, however, coterminous with Time and Space, as well as possessing its own "space" (or something approximating such a dimension), and is a "place" to some extent. Thus, it would be within the realm of things that Yog-Sothoth can affect. Even the Far Realm is still a place.

The Void might be a better option. Go to the 73rd Layer of the Abyss (the Wells of Darkness), then enter Shattered Night. It is explicitly described as "the absence of a place" and "infinite nothing" (there's no environment to interact with, no possible movement, no magic, nothing). From there you can reach the Void, which is outside even that. Presumably - it's only mentioned that Shattered Night is linked to the Void.

Eldan

2011-07-29, 09:27 AM

Eh, the Astral Plane is the dimension between and behind spaces. The backstage of the universe. The place where things happen that no one should ever actually see. I'd argue that it is not a place, and certainly not a time.

Shadow Lord

2011-07-29, 09:36 AM

But if you can go somewhere, does that not make it place, and does that not then make Yoggy able to effect it?

I say Yog-Sothoth wins.

Halae

2011-07-29, 09:37 AM

But if you can go somewhere, does that not make it place, and does that not then make Yoggy able to effect it?

I say Yog-Sothoth wins.

I'd say that the transitive places are more like the shadows and the echo of the places, and thus not places in and of themselves.

Alleran

2011-07-29, 09:56 AM

But if you can go somewhere, does that not make it place, and does that not then make Yoggy able to effect it?
That's the fun part for Shattered Night, at least. It might connect to "Void" (whatever it is) and to the Wells of Darkness, but going places once you're in Shattered Night is a completely different story.

Once you're in Shattered Night, you can't go anywhere. At all. You can't go anywhere in it, you can't go anywhere from it, you can't even get back out of it on your own without a (powerful) deity personally coming down and ripping open a hole in the multiverse to yank you back through (or making an unspecified deal of some sort). And then that deity might get themselves obliterated, imprisoned or otherwise destroyed for its trouble. The Void that Shattered Night is connected to is completely outside everything, even the Far Realm. Space doesn't exist there, time doesn't exist there. Neither, by definition, could Yog-Sothoth. It's beyond even him.

Of course, you might be able to escape Yoggy by going there, but getting back, well... that's a different story.

gkathellar

2011-07-29, 10:00 AM

Though Yoggy is time, Asmodeus is an incarnation of evil, and evil as a primal force isn't hindered by time, it is omnipresent. -snip- So I vote Asmo. Time is awesome and all, but so's being a force of freakin nature.

You're missing the point of the Mythos. Asmodeus could walk into a room and say, "I'm primordial evil!" and the Outer Gods would see a bug crawling in their ice cream sundae shouting out anthropomorphism.

Because, see, for evil to be a primordial force, the universe has to care — and in any universe where the Mythos is, it doesn't.

Ravens_cry

2011-07-29, 10:11 AM

Basically it is bolt hole.
Asmodeus is much too human to face well against Yog-Sothoth. Yes, he plans and plots and schemes like no other, but in the end, he still comes across as a "Jerk with Superpowers" entity, not something literally mind blowingly alien like Yog-Sothoth. Evil will die when the last creature dies, but Yog-Sothoth is Eternity.

Shadow Lord

2011-07-29, 10:24 AM

So the Void is nowhere, yet somewhere, no time, yet some time? wut?! That confuses me in so many ways :smallfrown:

Sception

2011-07-29, 10:31 AM

There are two primal gods in the lovecraftian mythos - Yog Sothoth and Azathoth. Both are entities far beyond anything put forward in D&D. The infamous Cthulhu is a more relevant match.

charcoalninja

2011-07-29, 10:33 AM

That's not how it works. Asmodeus completely controls the Nine Hells? Go back before he controlled them.

And do what exactly? Try to take out a force of nature with a death spell? It is entirely possible that Asmodeus cannot be absolutely destroyed without annialating all of physical reality as well because he's THE spiritual entity of Lawful Evil. There's a lot of hushed lore around his origin and the nature of the Hells. Planescape back in 2e had some stories to that effect, that the damaged body of Asmo's true form lay at the bottem of the Pit of Hell birthing pit fiends and other terrors and that the lord of Nine is just effectively an avatar.

Another thing to consider(that just occured to me) is that the D&D outer planes aren't physical reality in the traditional sense but effectively thoughts made manifest upon said reality. If Yoggy is all of physical reality, the Nine Hells exist as an intrusive element only barely upon it. It is a spiritual realm fed by the power of sentient belief, not a physical dimension forged from stone. It is no more a place than a dream. D&D just affords its people the ability to travel to such thought dimensions to interact with worlds beyond physical existence. I argue as it is the destination of the mortal soul that it is beyond space and time. The fact that everything that lives in the Nine Hells is immortal adds some support to this belief.

I posit that Yoggy has no influence in the outer planes aside from what he would be able to do through physically travelling to the planes and through whatever crazy powers he has to influence thought.

"I would say that it is still, however, coterminous with Time and Space, as well as possessing its own "space" (or something approximating such a dimension), and is a "place" to some extent. Thus, it would be within the realm of things that Yog-Sothoth can affect. Even the Far Realm is still a place."

The Astral plane is just a connection plane to the realm of thought. It doesn't really exist physically. Things have a sort of reality to them within the context of the plane, but just like the rest of the outer planes, its just coalesed energy and beleif. No more real than a dream.

I remain confident that Asmo would give Yoggy a run for his money at the very least and likely would win.

charcoalninja

2011-07-29, 10:36 AM

You're missing the point of the Mythos. Asmodeus could walk into a room and say, "I'm primordial evil!" and the Outer Gods would see a bug crawling in their ice cream sundae shouting out anthropomorphism.

Because, see, for evil to be a primordial force, the universe has to care — and in any universe where the Mythos is, it doesn't.

Well then Asmo wins by default because Yoggy would never fathom harming him. If he would, being a sentient creature that does not require anything to sustain its existence it would be evil and thus places evil on par with their own strange existence by them being able to experience that. Evil is a primordial force because it impacts anything capable of anything other than drifting.

Another reason I'm so vehemently supporting Asmo is that the power displayed and talked about with these entities I don't feel is so very different than the power displayed by gods in D&D. You're talking about entities that are the incarnations of the entire universe, but the D&D gods literally remake reality to whatever they wish. They are an aspect of belief and through their existence and power they reshape anything around them to their whim.

I don't feel there's enough support to say that the old gods are leagues above what the others are. What do they do that a D&D god can't? Destroying worlds are well within their powerset, most create and destroy. You don't see widespread devistation (normally) with their conflicts because their battles don't take place in physical existence. Their conflicts are analogous to wars of ideology. In D&D belief and will trumps physical existence. Hell if Yoggy IS time than he's ruled by Pelor the god of time by the definition that Gods have complete power over their area of influence.

Shadow Lord

2011-07-29, 10:39 AM

charcoalninja

2011-07-29, 10:54 AM

How would Asmodeus kill Yog, though? What powers does he have that would enable him to kill what amounts to the God Damn Space/Time Fabric of Existance?

Asmodeus might be as powerful as you say, but an embodiment of morals is never going to be as powerful as the God Damn Space/Time Fabric of Existance.

And the fact that you can go to the outer planes, and they have matter which can then be brought back to the material plane indicates that they are very much a place, and by definition, a part of space.

How is an embodiment of morals not as powerful as physical reality? Posit the purpose of reality as merely being the stage for souls to exist to play out their roles and Yog goes from being an all important universal presence to a coffee table in the order of the universe. Space Time and the fabric of existence also in most mythologies was created by a diety anyway so that shows thought > existence if we are to take both mythologies in their entirity.

Shadow Lord

2011-07-29, 11:05 AM

charcoalninja

2011-07-29, 11:35 AM

...

...

You just asked how an embodiment of morals could not be as powerful as Good Damn Physical Reality!!! Think of it this way: our friend Yoggy over there presides over a group of nigh-omnipotent Ancient Ones, who are, y'know, nigh-omnipotent. Asmodeus presides over a group of powerful Devils, who are not even as strong as a single god. Yoggy on the other hand has complete control over all physical reality, and since the planes are indeed physical, and are indeed a reality, he therefore has control over them. Thus can it be argued that nothing you can do can stop our friend Yoggy over there. Also, something that might be of interest of you, is that in the Cthulhu d20 system, it says that our friend Yoggy can teleport through time and space, including the planes. You can then posit that Yog-Sothoth is indeed all of creation, meaning that Asmodeus would never risk even trying to fight Yoggy. He'd probably let himself die, instead of trying and failing to destroy the multiverse.

Oh, and just so you realize, it's an Avatar of Yog-Sothoth who presides over a group of nigh-omnipotent beings. 'Umr at-Tawil. An Avatar who is strong enough to rule a group of extremely powerful individuals, each one probably rivaling Asmodeus himself.

The planes aren't physical at all. That's the whole point. They are morphic manifestations of thought, and if one plane has a high enough concentration of a belief that area of the plane will move to another plane of existence. The planes are where mortal souls go when they no longer physically exist. And the D&D gods MADE physical reality in their mythos, and in many mythologies destroy and recreate it routinely. Physical reality exists and anything in it can be destroyed. You can grind a planet to dust, you can bend and manipulate space time, how do you hurt an idea? Yoggy being all of creation is nice and all, and I'm sure his peers are powerful, but Asmodeus is with a realm of being that exists outside of physical reality and he rubs elbows with the powers that made the multiverse in the first place. Also, nothing can enter a divine realm without the diety allowing it, and many sources, especially 4th edition D&D, give Asmodeus this level of control over hell, a place that doesn't physically exist.

I'm arguing from the perspective that omnipotence is relative. What feats does Yoggy do that stand him out as being stronger than the Lord of Hell? What has he done, and what makes his peers stronger than D&D gods aside from awed captions in game from mortal characters writing about these strange old ones? Of course they seem incredibly powerful, D&D gods are nigh omnipotent too, its all about context. The gods are only limited in relation to each other.

Oh and the Archfiends that Asmo presides over possess god-like power, in every instance of lore they are capable of giving the gods themselves pause.

EDIT: creation is what gods mess with when they're bored, its their thing. They fight with each other to prevent each other from tearing it apart and remaking it in their image. That's what gods do. Yoggy is their canvas, he is the moved and they are the movers.

EDIT2: picture the planes as being in essence the Matrix. It exists sure in the abstract, but not physically, it only exists in the realm of thought and can only be percieved and interacted with through that medium.

Shadow Lord

2011-07-29, 11:41 AM

Eldan

2011-07-29, 11:54 AM

Shadow Lord

2011-07-29, 11:59 AM

Alright then. So it can be agreed that the safest place for Asmodeus to go is the Astral Plane, because it's the place where Yoggy will be at his weakest?

Eldan

2011-07-29, 12:00 PM

I'd say so. Perhaps that void that people talked about too, I've never heard of it. (I really only know one Void, and that is the Astral).

charcoalninja

2011-07-29, 12:11 PM

Proof, sir. What proof do you have that the D&D gods made reality? Where does it say that? And you know how you destroy a belief? You kill everyone who has that belief. Everyone. And Yoggy can do that. Or, if he feels like being neat, he just attacks Asmodeus on every instance of time that ever was, is, and will be. Because, well, he can. Theoretically. How does your friend Asmody over there defend 'gainst that kind of power?

And what says the planes aren't part of Space/Time? Where does it say that they exist separately from that which binds everything together.

Also, if you're gonna use Planescape, then Yog-Sothoth is infinite, because of the fact that there are an infinite amount of Material Planes in Planescape. Bad things then occur.

The whole part about them being manifestations of thought and mortal belief. (you can check the 3.5 DMG, any Manual of the Planes printed ever, and the whole Planescape setting.) That part. The part where it is populated by souls, about as opposite as you can get to physical reality. The part where time functions erratically, differently or not at all on various planes. Physical reality doesn't bind everything together in D&D, mystical and spiritual reality does. This is a multiverse of magic and ideology. The prime material plane is physical reality, the elemental planes are physical reality... maybe. Everything else is an abstract thought exercise with unfathomable mystery and power. Doesn't matter if Yoggy is infinite. Size doesn't matter in this case because that's not how the planes work. Nearly every plane in the D&D mythos is infinite. The only way to get to any outer plane is through the Astral Plane, which is the plane of thought, a transitory connection where there is no physical world, gravity doesn't exist, or rather it exists where anyone wants it to, and mortals do not age.

Some worlds in D&D have Moradin creating the universe, others Selune and Shar existed as opposites and their struggle against each other resulted in creation. There are innumerable divine myths and nearly all of them have the gods making the universe. That's what they do, it goes with being gods. You make your happy physical reality and then you have fun making lesser creatures do what you want.

And Yoggy cannot kill everything that is evil without destroying himself for contemplating the act in the first place. Nor can he attack Asmo in the Nine Hells because he can't go there unless Asmodeus lets him. And attacking Asmodeus at the dawn of time didn't happen so either Yoggy didn't want to do it, did it and didn't win, or can't. I'd argue for the sake of letting Yoggy be awesome that he is capable of attack Asmo at the dawn of time and they just stalemated because neither could destroy the other, or was unwilling to do what was necessary to destroy the other.

In all honesty after all of this debating, it'll probably just end in a stalemate before it even gets started. Neither entity would have anything to gain in seeking the others destruction. Part of the mythos of uberbeings and the cool factor goes with them being unkillable and thus needing all sorts of interesting steps to contain them if they get out of line.

charcoalninja

2011-07-29, 12:15 PM

We should perhaps agree on what backstory we are using for Asmodeus. If he's a fallen Angel? No contest, Yoggy wins. If he is the original evil? Then we are getting Planescapey and it becomes problematic. If he's Ahriman, part of the Serpent? That changes the playing field a lot.

And no, most planes aren't outside of Time and Space. But the Astral is. THat's the entire definition of the Silver Void, the Things Between and Behind. It has no space, and no time.

I would (and have) argued that they are indeed outside of time and space because they don't physically exist. They are pockets of manufactured experience floating in the void of the plane of thought. These aren't islands of matter that the astral sits behind, they're focused astral mojo used to direct the ideological power of the entity that rules there.

But you're completely right, it all depends on Asmodeus's backstory and the powers ascribed to him as the Lord of Hell. It is the vagueness and the possibility of him being Ahriman, the Serpent or the sentient embodyment of Evil that makes the mental exercise interesting.

Alleran

2011-07-29, 12:20 PM

So the Void is nowhere, yet somewhere, no time, yet some time? wut?! That confuses me in so many ways :smallfrown:
"Shattered Night is a void beyond the finite boundaries of the Wells of Darkness, an infinite nothingness that may link to the Void beyond other planes. Most of the Wells of Darkness are windows into Shattered Night, yet the Well of Ahazu is in fact a form of portal known as a planar tear that permits passage through a layer's boundaries to the void beyond."

"Shattered Night is not truly a place - it is the absence of a place. As such, there is no environment to interact with, movement is not possible, and magic has no effect."

Shattered Night is nowhere. Even in the Astral you can apply some sense of space and distance to your position relative to other things. You can't in Shattered Night. There is a "portal" (more a hole in the multiverse, really) leading there, and a way of getting back. But that doesn't mean it is a place, because it isn't a place. Or a time. Welcome to the strangeness of Empty, of Absolute Nothing.

Shadow Lord

2011-07-29, 12:22 PM

This ain't using 4E, I'm pretty sure. Because with 4E... well, 4E changed everything, and some of us haven't even gotten a 4E book. No Astral Sea for you! We have an Astral Plane, but not an Astral Sea. That stuff is just boring :smallsigh:

Alleran

2011-07-29, 12:23 PM

Shadow Lord

2011-07-29, 12:26 PM

Because the way that charcoalninja was saying things indicated that he was using the Astral Sea as his reference point for how things work.

gkathellar

2011-07-29, 12:36 PM

It seems we're running into a fundamental conflict here — D&D's multiversal assumptions are based on an anthropocentric philosophy that things humans care about are important. The Mythos is existential horror: it's specifically about things humans care about not being important, and us being totally helpless to do anything about it.

Well then Asmo wins by default because Yoggy would never fathom harming him. If he would, being a sentient creature that does not require anything to sustain its existence it would be evil and thus places evil on par with their own strange existence by them being able to experience that. Evil is a primordial force because it impacts anything capable of anything other than drifting.

You're still missing the point. If most people saw a bug crawling in your ice cream sundae, they would reach out and crush it. Does that make them evil? Maybe. Jainists would certainly say it's a stain on karma. But those words don't mean anything to the bug. It's a bug. You don't care what it thinks, mostly because it's not even capable of comprehending the ways in which your thoughts form. Your unconscious is smarter than the bug.

That's roughly the relationship between Outer Gods and the Great Old Ones, who would be a closer match for raw power with Asmodeus. Now imagine how little the Outer Gods care about any concept of evil a human could understand. They're not above screwing with lesser beings any more than we are, and they care about them considerably less.

Another reason I'm so vehemently supporting Asmo is that the power displayed and talked about with these entities I don't feel is so very different than the power displayed by gods in D&D. You're talking about entities that are the incarnations of the entire universe, but the D&D gods literally remake reality to whatever they wish. They are an aspect of belief and through their existence and power they reshape anything around them to their whim.

Alter Reality is pretty sweet, I agree. Pelor could probably go toe to toe with Cthulhu and come out on top. But as per the Mythos, Azathoth is roughly on par with an entity such as FR's Ao — functionally omnipotent. And it plays second fiddle to Yog Sothoth.

I don't feel there's enough support to say that the old gods are leagues above what the others are. What do they do that a D&D god can't? Destroying worlds are well within their powerset, most create and destroy. You don't see widespread devistation (normally) with their conflicts because their battles don't take place in physical existence. Their conflicts are analogous to wars of ideology. In D&D belief and will trumps physical existence. Hell if Yoggy IS time than he's ruled by Pelor the god of time by the definition that Gods have complete power over their area of influence.

Even in Planescape, gods are among the lowest-ranking Powers. The Power of Time overrides any god of Time, but is considerably less comprehensible. Beyond which, much as Yog Sothoth is time, it's not actually required to follow any of time's rules. It can do whatever it wants — that's why it's the Key and the Gate, not just the Key or just the Gate.

How is an embodiment of morals not as powerful as physical reality? Posit the purpose of reality as merely being the stage for souls to exist to play out their roles and Yog goes from being an all important universal presence to a coffee table in the order of the universe. Space Time and the fabric of existence also in most mythologies was created by a diety anyway so that shows thought > existence if we are to take both mythologies in their entirity.

Problem point bolded. The Mythos is specifically about this being untrue. "Souls" and "roles" and whatever aren't applicable the moment the Mythos arrives, because their entire purpose is to laugh at your silly anthropocentric view of the universe briefly before they eat you.

EDIT: creation is what gods mess with when they're bored, its their thing. They fight with each other to prevent each other from tearing it apart and remaking it in their image. That's what gods do. Yoggy is their canvas, he is the moved and they are the movers.

Yog-Sothoth isn't just a canvas. It's an active entity, and explicitly stated to be more powerful than Azathoth (omnipotent, dreamed the universe into being) and knowledgeable than Yibb-Tstll (omniscient). So ... Infinity+1.

mootoall

2011-07-29, 12:47 PM

Gensh

2011-07-29, 12:51 PM

But as per the Mythos, Azathoth is roughly on par with an entity such as FR's Ao — functionally omnipotent. And it plays second fiddle to Yog Sothoth.

What I usually read out of it is that Azathoth is all-powerful and beyond space and time, but so long as he sleeps, he can do nothing, as the universe is bounded by space and time. That's why he's got Nyarlethotep running around trying to cause enough of an uproar amidst every sentient race so as to create a cosmic alarm clock.

In any case, I believe it's important to the argument that we point out exactly who the D&D gods are. The oldest of them - Garl Glittergold, for example, are archetypal representations. You can't get any gnomier than Garl, so he has a modicum of control over those things that gnomes deem integral to their race. That's the limit of his power. Pelor is the archetypal representation of that smiley face drawn on the sun and thus has a collection of mighty sun-based powers, but does not in fact have any control over a physical sun at all; he merely exemplifies the qualities his followers attribute to their individual suns. As far as the younger gods go, they're simply ascended mortals taking over a certain amount of mandatory divine power; they're certainly not universe-crafters. More likely than not, the D&D gods are lying about being involved in the creation of the multiverse, seeing as how most of them are canonically weaker than Zeus, and he's several generations away from his pantheon's creation myth.

gkathellar

2011-07-29, 12:59 PM

What I usually read out of it is that Azathoth is all-powerful and beyond space and time, but so long as he sleeps, he can do nothing, as the universe is bounded by space and time. That's why he's got Nyarlethotep running around trying to cause enough of an uproar amidst every sentient race so as to create a cosmic alarm clock.

It varies from writer to writer. Wikipedia is actually pretty good on keeping to Lovecraft's work in Mythos matters, and it sets Yog as being more powerful.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-29, 01:34 PM

More likely than not, the D&D gods are lying about being involved in the creation of the multiverse, seeing as how most of them are canonically weaker than Zeus, and he's several generations away from his pantheon's creation myth.

But you're forgetting the Big Guys in D&D - Ao, the Highgod, Her Serenity the Lady of Pain, and...well, let's face it, Pun-Pun. These guys predate any other god (except Pun-pun), severeal of them have shown the capability of unmaking deities on a whim (lookin' at you, Lady), and all of them are implied or outright written to be more powerful than all of the gods of their respective pantheons combined.

And then we learn that even Ao has a boss...

Likely there's a bunch of primordial, unknowable beings floating around, like Ao, Her Serenity, and probably Azathoth as well. They created the Multiverse overal, then created lesser beings who would give the universe more shape and form, who in turn created lesser beings who refined things even further, and so on. And they in turn were created by an even more ancient and powerful being who charged them with creating the Multiverse in the first place. And that thing was probably the Dungeon Master.

Vandicus

2011-07-29, 01:37 PM

And they in turn were created by an even more ancient and powerful being who charged them with creating the Multiverse in the first place. And that thing was probably the Dungeon Master.

He sometimes is known as Xagyg. :smallwink:

tyckspoon

2011-07-29, 01:39 PM

Guys, Asmodeus has Divine Ranks. He's immune to Death Effects, including Yog-Sothoth's Save or Die touch. Alter Reality SDA? Make all buffs, wards and protections Supernatural and Permanent. That makes him immune to HP damage as well. There's nothing you can do to harm him, except for the "Go back in time before he had a Divine Rank," which, in some cosmologies, he always had. And if Asmodeus is at all a competent schemer, he'll have had these protections up immediately upon getting his first DvR.

Eh.. you're working with the 'pick your Asmodeus' thing again. The ones suggested in the original post- either Fiendish Codex Aspect or Book of Vile Darkness- do not have Divine Rank. They are not inherently immune to [Death], transmutations, or indeed anything that Yog's you-die-now touch might be. They do not have any fluff suggesting that they are Original Sin, or an integral part of the entire magic of the multiverse, or pulled a fast one on the Powers What Be at the Dawn of Time so now they're a cosmic keystone, or anything beyond being the smartest and most powerful of the lords of the Hells. They aren't optimized level 20 Clerics with all the shenanigans that involves- they have spell lists and spell-like powers themed around 'what cruel and unusual punishments should an Archdevil have?'

Without getting into the "but MY Asmodeus is more badass than that!" stuff.. can we at least agree that Asmodeus, as presented in Book of Vile Darkness, is pretty well boned in trying to take on a being with all of time to play with?

Edit: Well, ok, Fiendish Codex II does have the Pact Primeval story as its preface, but the Asmodeus aspect presented there is nonetheless not especially powerful as Epic challenges go.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-29, 01:40 PM

He sometimes is known as Xagyg. :smallwink:

Isn't he just a demigod?

(Yeah, I know it's an anagram of Gygax)

gkathellar

2011-07-29, 01:48 PM

But you're forgetting the Big Guys in D&D - Ao, the Highgod, Her Serenity the Lady of Pain, and...well, let's face it, Pun-Pun. These guys predate any other god (except Pun-pun), severeal of them have shown the capability of unmaking deities on a whim (lookin' at you, Lady), and all of them are implied or outright written to be more powerful than all of the gods of their respective pantheons combined.

And then we learn that even Ao has a boss...

Likely there's a bunch of primordial, unknowable beings floating around, like Ao, Her Serenity, and probably Azathoth as well. They created the Multiverse overal, then created lesser beings who would give the universe more shape and form, who in turn created lesser beings who refined things even further, and so on. And they in turn were created by an even more ancient and powerful being who charged them with creating the Multiverse in the first place. And that thing was probably the Dungeon Master.

So the real question is, "Who would win in a fight: Gary Gygax or H.P. Lovecraft?"

... Gygax, probably. Lovecraft was pretty sickly, bookish and depressed. Damn it.

EDIT: For reference, in Planescape those entities above the gods are the higher-ranking Powers. They're the ... non-entities ... playing the big game charcoalninja was describing.

mootoall

2011-07-29, 02:04 PM

Wait ... so it's pitting actual Yog-Sothoth against an aspect of Asmodeus? Of course Yog-Sothoth would win ... Asmodeus the ruler of the Nine Hells, however, no doubt has Divine Ranks up the wazoo, is immune to Yog-Sothoth's [Death] attack, and would have to be killed by HP damage.

Reprimand

2011-07-29, 02:08 PM

Asmodeus would win because he has Gort as a champion.

The only problem is that Gort is too nice for his/Asmodeus' own good.

Learn to be more evil Gort!

Eldan

2011-07-29, 04:09 PM

Is it ever stated that the "real" FC Asmo has divine ranks? And that one certainly as te weakness that at one point in time, he was just an archon. Which can be killed.

charcoalninja

2011-07-29, 06:11 PM

I will definitely have to concede the arguement. On my drive home I came to the same conclusion gkathellar did, that the assumptions about reality in the two settings are so incompatible as to make the argument impossible depending on your choice of Asmodeus. Certain lore paints him to be as ancient and fundamental to existence as Yogg, just in a different way, an embodiment of a fundamental force of the universe, evil incarnate, eternal and unbeatable.

In D&D ideology is king and the entire universe is about the battle between the fundamental forces of Good and Evil, Law and Chaos. In Mythos, that's not the case, and these beings are unfathomable ancient things on incomprehensible motive and power. Are one as strong as the other? Its impossible to tell, Mythos doesn't have Zeus running around to use as a measuring stick. The gods of D&D are omnipotent against anything not them. Just as Yoggy would be more powerful than anything but his class of being. However since the D&D gods are knowable and embody understandible concepts this leads to people putting them on a lower level in their minds than some incomprehensible force, even though the gods make and remake reality anyway.

However if you ignore lore and go with the statblocks alone and Asmodeus does not possess any of the power he should and indeed NEEDS to be what he is, he goes down in in the round before he realizes that a fight's going on.

Throughout my argument I was using the 3.5 mythology. The outer planes do indeed sit out in the Astral in the Great Wheel and aren't physical dimensions. I only brought up 4e as it was another instance of Asmodues lore being more than his usual statblock represents. And most people would agree is a better representation of what the lore says he should be (4e he's a greater diety).

Bob the DM

2011-07-29, 06:27 PM

No offence to those of you who are argueing their hearts out, but the origional question is akin to who is more powerful, Zues or Odin? Superman or the Hulk (from Planet Hulk) or the like. Since they both exist in different universes, they both play by different rules.
Can you take a 8th Generation Vampire from 'Vampire' and pit them against a 5th level Cleric of Pelor? Who would win? By Vampire rules the vampire would easily have torn a relatively "low powered" human to shreds. But by dnd rules, a fifth level cleric who has some turning feats and appropriate level wealth could very possibly destroy the vampire instantly with a greater turning.

All a comparisson like this can do is highlight the inherant differences of the two universes and call to light what makes either of these entities cool/powerful.

If you want an answer to the origional question, you must first define the rules and universe the contest takes place in and then find common ground to define their power levels on the same universes scale.

Shadow Lord

2011-07-29, 06:45 PM

No, Charcoalninja, that is not the case. All the Planes being in or around the Astral Plane is something from 4E. In 3.5, that is simply not the case.

Morithias

2011-07-29, 06:46 PM

Shadow Lord

2011-07-29, 06:47 PM

And that's without getting into debate about time travel paradoxes and the like. The whole "wait a minute if he went back in time to terminate asmodeus, then he has no reason to go back in the present cause he's already dead" thing.

Heck in some D&D settings if I recall it's flat out stated that time travel is impossible. So if the fight goes down in those settings, does that mean Yog-Sothoth loses his Dues Ex Machina power?

No, because, technically speaking, Yog-Sothoth is time, if I remember correctly. If I remember correctly, he also exists at all times simultaneously, so he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. I think.

Gensh

2011-07-29, 07:58 PM

It varies from writer to writer. Wikipedia is actually pretty good on keeping to Lovecraft's work in Mythos matters, and it sets Yog as being more powerful.

Odd. I've only read Lovecraft's content, though I might have missed the story that stated that. I personally tend to view all the other Great Old Ones as aspects of Azathoth, so I'm seeing this as "is the subconscious greater than the unconscious whole?"

No, because, technically speaking, Yog-Sothoth is time, if I remember correctly. If I remember correctly, he also exists at all times simultaneously, so he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. I think.

Yog-Sothoth is coterminous with everything and all dimensions (when he's not a bunch of rainbow bubbles). For comparison, Azathoth is everything or with a different interpretation, the all-consuming roughly sentient black hole at the center of the multiverse that will consume all at the end of time.

While the point that the powers being compared are fundamentally incompatible may still stand, one should also consider the implications that the Mythos would have for a D&Dverse, regardless of whether it has overdeities or not (barring the inclusion of the DM, of course). If we assume the cosmology is human-centric, rather than entirely alien to humanity, we must consider what roles the mightiest of the Mythos serve in the minds of humanity. What is Asmodeus? At his best, Evil, great and powerful, one of the most fundamental forces in the cosmos. What then is Yog-Sothoth? Yog-Sothoth is Space - all Space, such that the realms of the spirit and even time are considered a part. Space is impassible and unfathomable where Evil is a wholly human motivation. Space is Evil's elder by far, and Space will remain beyond the death of all mankind. Man is fully aware of his own mortality, and it is because of this that Evil is also fully mortal. Time, Time is eternal, thus must also be Space.

gkathellar

2011-07-29, 08:29 PM

Odd. I've only read Lovecraft's content, though I might have missed the story that stated that. I personally tend to view all the other Great Old Ones as aspects of Azathoth, so I'm seeing this as "is the subconscious greater than the unconscious whole?"

Yog-Sothoth isn't a Great Old One. It's an Outer God, like Azathoth and a few others.

While the point that the powers being compared are fundamentally incompatible may still stand, one should also consider the implications that the Mythos would have for a D&Dverse, regardless of whether it has overdeities or not (barring the inclusion of the DM, of course). If we assume the cosmology is human-centric, rather than entirely alien to humanity, we must consider what roles the mightiest of the Mythos serve in the minds of humanity. What is Asmodeus? At his best, Evil, great and powerful, one of the most fundamental forces in the cosmos. What then is Yog-Sothoth? Yog-Sothoth is Space - all Space, such that the realms of the spirit and even time are considered a part. Space is impassible and unfathomable where Evil is a wholly human motivation. Space is Evil's elder by far, and Space will remain beyond the death of all mankind. Man is fully aware of his own mortality, and it is because of this that Evil is also fully mortal. Time, Time is eternal, thus must also be Space.

And that's roughly the role the Far Realm occupies in D&D cosmology: to be totally weird and foreign compared to the Powers.

It's also worth noting that if you were to shove the two into the same setting, they'd probably never encounter each other unless Asmodeus left Hell to do so. An entity like Yog Sothoth would probably only have a relationship with the Prime, and have no interest or bearing on the Outer Planes. And, at least going by Planescape cosmology, the Prime is the one place where gods and Powers aren't close to omnipotent.

Morithias

2011-07-29, 08:40 PM

No, because, technically speaking, Yog-Sothoth is time, if I remember correctly. If I remember correctly, he also exists at all times simultaneously, so he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. I think.

Well that's not "his code name is marty sue" type power level. That's like asking "who would win Orcus or the Creator" (an creature in my setting who is the antro-morphic form of the DM and has rule 0 as a power).

Once you have something like that on the table, there really isn't any reason to debate anymore, just sit down and give up. Maybe use an "unname" spell to delete yourself from existence so at least he can't torture you.

Gensh

2011-07-29, 08:43 PM

Well that's not "his code name is marty sue" type power level. That's like asking "who would win Orcus or the Creator" (an creature in my setting who is the antro-morphic form of the DM and has rule 0 as a power).

Once you have something like that on the table, there really isn't any reason to debate anymore, just sit down and give up. Maybe use an "unname" spell to delete yourself from existence so at least he can't torture you.

This is actually the point of the Mythos. If you recall, it's actually from Horror stories, rather than Fantasy. The point is for it to be unfathomable and unbeatable, save when you luck out and banish the squid monster about to eat you. Some of us are wondering why this argument was raised in the first place.

Morithias

2011-07-29, 08:46 PM

This is actually the point of the Mythos. If you recall, it's actually from Horror stories, rather than Fantasy. The point is for it to be unfathomable and unbeatable, save when you luck out and banish the squid monster about to eat you. Some of us are wondering why this argument was raised in the first place.

Actually now that I think about it. Is Yog-Sothoth intelligent? Because if he is, then he has a true name, and if he has a true name then the "unname" spell could possibly kill him, assuming someone could make it bypass his spell resistance (since you don't get a save against the unname spell).

Gensh

2011-07-29, 08:47 PM

Actually now that I think about it. Is Yog-Sothoth intelligent? Because if he is, then he has a true name, and if he has a true name then the "unname" spell could possibly kill him, assuming someone could make it bypass his spell resistance (since you don't get a save against the unname spell).

Remember that story about the truenamer who went completely mad? Yeah, that's exactly what would happen. :smallwink:

Morithias

2011-07-29, 08:53 PM

Remember that story about the truenamer who went completely mad? Yeah, that's exactly what would happen. :smallwink:

I thought that was because he found out his truename was "Thaysa the Loser" or something like that. Or because he found out he had no true love.

charcoalninja

2011-07-29, 09:02 PM

No, Charcoalninja, that is not the case. All the Planes being in or around the Astral Plane is something from 4E. In 3.5, that is simply not the case.

Actually it is. 3.5 DMG:

pg. 147 "The Astral Plane is a conduit to all other planes..."

Pg. 150: Separate Planes: Two planes that are separate do not overlap or directly connect to each other... Any Outer Plane, for example, has no direct connection with the Material Plane...
Pg. 150: Coexistent Planes: If a link between two planes can be created at any point, the two planes are coexistent. These planes overlap each other completely... the Outer planes are Coexistent with the Astral Plane.

As the Astral plane completely overlaps ALL Outer Planes, they are situated within the Astral Plane. The orientation of the Outer Planes within the Astral Sea did not change between editions.

PG. 154: "The Astral Plane is the space between the planes."

gkathellar

2011-07-29, 09:18 PM

Actually now that I think about it. Is Yog-Sothoth intelligent? Because if he is, then he has a true name, and if he has a true name then the "unname" spell could possibly kill him, assuming someone could make it bypass his spell resistance (since you don't get a save against the unname spell).

Assuming you could make the required Truespeak check, I can see only two possible outcomes to that attempt: either, a) Yog-Sothoth notices you, sucks to be you, or b) you accidentally summon the King In the Yellow, sucks to be alive on your planet.

CN the Logos

2011-07-30, 12:15 AM

Coidzor

2011-07-30, 12:30 AM

Edit: Well, ok, Fiendish Codex II does have the Pact Primeval story as its preface, but the Asmodeus aspect presented there is nonetheless not especially powerful as Epic challenges go.

Indeed. Aspect. Not even the real deal.

But see the point wherein any universe where both exist is going to collapse into a puddle of paradox.

gooddragon1

2011-07-30, 01:04 AM

In that case, you could name your God of time and space "Captain Smiley, the Guitar of Eons" and have the same debate without dragging a work that is only sort of related to the Captain into things. :smalltongue:

Ah but you see, with this name comes great importance...

You and the cap'n make it happen.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6Lvkrntm-58/TKFR7AZiSUI/AAAAAAAAAYY/eoSUu06_gtw/s320/captain-crunch-784201.jpg

Asmodeus would be crunchatized.

Coidzor

2011-07-30, 01:09 AM

Ah but you see, with this name comes great importance...

You and the cap'n make it happen.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6Lvkrntm-58/TKFR7AZiSUI/AAAAAAAAAYY/eoSUu06_gtw/s320/captain-crunch-784201.jpg

Asmodeus would be crunchatized.

Well, of course. It's really no contest there.

WalkingTarget

2011-07-30, 01:30 AM

There seems to be some confusion re: the power levels of Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth. If I recall correctly, the only place Azathoth is described by Lovecraft is in "The Fungi From Yuggoth" in which it is stated that Azathoth creates universes continuously by what is metaphorically described as playing a set of damaged pipes, and whatever notes he's hitting at the moment a cosmos is formed sets that world's laws. Since its music is everything that exists, if the music stops that's it. And everything is everything.

"XXII. Azathoth

Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me,
Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space,
Till neither time nor matter stretched before me,
But only Chaos, without form or place.
Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered
Things he had dreamed but could not understand,
While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered
In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned.

They danced insanely to the high, thin whining
Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw,
Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining
Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law.
“I am His Messenger,” the daemon said,
As in contempt he struck his Master’s head."

I don't see anything there (or in any of Lovecraft's other work) that talks about what happens when Azathoth "awakens" - or even if he's "sleeping" at all. He's just a mindless force of nature. He is the chaos at the center of all things and there's mad piping in his presence. I know there's stuff out there on how Lovecraft was inspired by Lord Dunsany whose creation MANA-YOOD-SUSHAI was explicitly asleep and whose waking would end everything as reality is but his dream, but Azathoth isn't that direct of a parallel.

Yog-Sothoth is described as the All-In-One, and is coterminous with all spacetime. Yog-Sothoth does not have a key to open the gate. It is The Key and The Gate. By mere virtue of being equated with spacetime, Yog-Sothoth is probably the creation of Azathoth, but is still orders of magnitude above any human concepts like good or evil. Even if you're using good and evil as objective forces, evil is still a part of everything that exists, which is Yog-Sothoth, which is the music of Azathoth. This means that killing Yog-Sothoth, if you somehow manage to do it, is suicide. You unmake yourself along with it. Then Azathoth keeps playing and Yog-Sothoth is reborn, and you've accomplished nothing. Good work there champ.

In the event that evil is such a fundamental law of (meta)physics that it predates time in the multiverse this "fight" takes place in, the "arena" (i.e., all of reality) is so different from what Lovecraft proposedthat you aren't pitting Asmodeus against Yog-Sothoth anymore. You're pitting Asmodeus against a being that has the same name as one of Lovecraft's creations and maybe some similarities in appearance/divine portfolio, but that's it. In which case, the answer becomes, "Regardless of who wins, what does it have to do with what Lovecraft wrote?" In that case, you could name your God of time and space "Captain Smiley, the Guitar of Eons" and have the same debate without dragging a work that is only sort of related to the Captain into things. :smalltongue:

Lovecraft doesn't spell out the relation of these things. You can say that Yog is a creation of Azathoth, but it's just supposition since Lovecraft never discussed it. Heck, Yog only really gets discussed at all in Dunwich and Charles Dexter Ward within the stories that weren't collaborations in some way (and even in the others there's not a lot to go on).

That's the problem with Lovecraft's creations (from an analysis point of view). He never really described any of them because they're meant to be alien (and therefore scary). You can use stats from roleplaying books, but much of the information there is based on decisions made by later authors.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-30, 01:40 AM

He never really described any of them because they're meant to be alien (and therefore scary).

That's one way of saying it...though the other is that Lovecraft viewed what he wrote as pulp drivvel not worth the exposition. Which isn't to say that it is that, simply that this is what he viewed it as.

In the event that evil is such a fundamental law of (meta)physics that it predates time in the multiverse this "fight" takes place in, the "arena" (i.e., all of reality) is so different from what Lovecraft proposedthat you aren't pitting Asmodeus against Yog-Sothoth anymore. You're pitting Asmodeus against a being that has the same name as one of Lovecraft's creations and maybe some similarities in appearance/divine portfolio, but that's it.

On the other hand, getting Asmodeus (or whoever) into a fight in which there is no metaphysical Evil or Good or Law or Chaos (i.e., a Lovecraftian arena) creates a scenario so unlike D&D that you aren't putting Yog-Sothoth against Asmodeus anymore.

Someone said it a few posts ago - this fight involves two forces in a playing field that is fundamentally impossible for them to fight in.

In any event, what Lovecraft described Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth as fundamentally fits in with what I, at least, interpret as Overdeities. Meaning that it's a mismatched fight anyway...you don't make Yog-Sothoth fight Asmodeus. You make him fight Her Serenity, or Ao, or Pun-pun.

gkathellar

2011-07-30, 07:31 AM

In any event, what Lovecraft described Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth as fundamentally fits in with what I, at least, interpret as Overdeities. Meaning that it's a mismatched fight anyway...you don't make Yog-Sothoth fight Asmodeus. You make him fight Her Serenity, or Ao, or Pun-pun.

A fight which, if you added manly determination and rap music, would basically look like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYlEoNUK3gQ)

Alleran

2011-07-30, 07:55 AM

A fight which, if you added manly determination and rap music, would basically look like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYlEoNUK3gQ)
My brain just started oozing out of my ears from the sheer awesome of that fight. It's all your fault.

kabreras

2011-07-30, 07:58 AM

That fight is just not possible because Yoggy is spacetime and it is stated that he know everything.

If ever Asmodeus had threatened him he would have knew it and so dealt with it before it even became a threat.
So this fight would never happend.

Yoggy is not able to travel in time, he is the time he is the same always and forever he dont have to travel in time he just act and is acts are whenever he want.

If Asmodeus had threatened him he acted and our Asmodeus that we know is just an other one than the one that had been a threat cause he never existed.
Dosent change anything to us cause all the rest would be the same.
Just that you cant be a threat to Yog-Sothoth cause he know before you exixt what you will ever do and so act before you exist.

Eldan

2011-07-30, 08:08 AM

gkathellar

2011-07-30, 08:24 AM

Now... if we leave third edition and go back to other versions of Asmodeus...

Serpent Asmodeus, specifically. If Crazy Vecna is right, and Asmodeus is part of the force that controls all magic, how would you rate him in scale?

That depends on how powerful the Serpent is. Can the Serpent do whatever it wants? Does it have any hard and fast limits at all?

My brain just started oozing out of my ears from the sheer awesome of that fight. It's all your fault.

Oops! Meant to post the movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny4ZvIgYFEg&feature=related) version. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS62KmYlm4k) It's not an accurate illustration of an Overdeity fight until the two parties are actually trying to stab each other with a broken infinity symbol.

kabreras

2011-07-30, 08:28 AM

Serpent Asmodeus, specifically. If Crazy Vecna is right, and Asmodeus is part of the force that controls all magic, how would you rate him in scale?

I dont think it is a mater of controling stuff, its a mater of thinking Asmodeus think at a moment (not omniscient), Yog-Sothoth know all the events from all the time, past, present, futur is all the same to him cause he is past, present and futur.
So if he ever have to act he can act at the moment it would mater for his sheme.

He dont have to be physically able to harm Asmodeus, he know that killing a single bacteria at a single moment will make Asmodeus never think about him.

Eldan

2011-07-30, 08:32 AM

That depends on how powerful the Serpent is. Can the Serpent do whatever it wants? Does it have any hard and fast limits at all?

Well, know ow people complain ow overpowered magic is in D&D? According to Vecna, te Serpent is te embodiment of tat.
And Asmodeus is part of te Serpent. No, I don't tink tere are any limits to im.

gkathellar

2011-07-30, 08:37 AM

Well, know ow people complain ow overpowered magic is in D&D? According to Vecna, te Serpent is te embodiment of tat.
And Asmodeus is part of te Serpent. No, I don't tink tere are any limits to im.

Then Serpent v. Yog Sothoth or Azathoth would probably be evenly matched. Nyarlathotep v. Asmodeus would essentially be a lower-key version of the same conflict, since both are proxies for larger, nastier forces.

Side Note: You should check to see if the H key is working on your keyboard.

Eldan

2011-07-30, 08:47 AM

I know it's broken. Can't do anyting about it, sadly.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-30, 10:40 AM

That fight is just not possible because Yoggy is spacetime and it is stated that he know everything.

Question on this.

Yog-Sothoth is spacetime. Cool, I get that. But can he actually affect it?

Remember that if Yog is spacetime than anything he does to change spacetime will change himself...possibly in ways he can't necessarily predict since they by definition don't actually exist without a change in spacetime.

Not to mention that being spacetime doesn't necessarily mean that he has any more power to affect it than a mortal being...possibly even less.

(That is, he could totally go back in time and kill Asmodeus. But to do that he still has to get a gun and kill him the old-fashioned way; he just tries to do it when Asmodeus was less powerful)

As we all know, Knowledge of an event does not necessarily mean you have the power to change it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQR41LAdPqw)

DeltaEmil

2011-07-30, 10:59 AM

Gensh

2011-07-30, 11:45 AM

Yog-Sothoth is spacetime. Cool, I get that. But can he actually affect it?

I believe that Yog-Sothoth could neither be harmed nor could do harm. Omniscience causes a logical paradox, wherein the omniscient force would see its own omniscient knowledge an endless number of times. While that makes for a humorous explanation as to why various Mythos figures are so mad, it would make more sense to equate him with the concept of Laplace's demon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon). This would explain why he makes use of such a pathetic avatar and is so easily thwarted (relatively speaking).

First-edition D&D: Yog-Sothoth wins.

Asmodeus only has 1 attack which does 2d6+2 damage and has 199 hit points.

Yog-Sothoth has 400 HP, 12 attacks each doing 1d8 damage.

Oh, geez, I forgot about that! :smallbiggrin:

gkathellar

2011-07-30, 11:49 AM

Yog-Sothoth is spacetime. Cool, I get that. But can he actually affect it?

Remember that if Yog is spacetime than anything he does to change spacetime will change himself...possibly in ways he can't necessarily predict since they by definition don't actually exist without a change in spacetime.

Yog-Sothoth is not space-time. It's the Lurker on the Threshold, the Key and the Gate — coterminous with all of space and all of time, but existent outside of it. It can affect space-time, however, as a result of its nigh-omnipotence.

Not to mention that being spacetime doesn't necessarily mean that he has any more power to affect it than a mortal being...possibly even less.

Again ... omnipotence.

(That is, he could totally go back in time and kill Asmodeus. But to do that he still has to get a gun and kill him the old-fashioned way; he just tries to do it when Asmodeus was less powerful)

I'm curious as to why you think an immortal, invincible, all-knowing, unstoppable monster-god has any use for a gun.

Starbuck_II

2011-07-30, 11:51 AM

This is actually the point of the Mythos. If you recall, it's actually from Horror stories, rather than Fantasy. The point is for it to be unfathomable and unbeatable, save when you luck out and banish the squid monster about to eat you. Some of us are wondering why this argument was raised in the first place.

And Asmodeus has a drill. And that drill will pierce the very heavens (meaning the space with Yog is)! And he will yell at Yog-Sothoth, "Who the hell do you think I am?!"

And by his very essence, Yog-Sothoth shall be turned into spiral energy to feed his drill.

gkathellar

2011-07-30, 11:54 AM

And Asmodeus Randolph Carter has a drill. And that drill will pierce the very heavens (meaning the space with Yog is)! And he will yell at Yog-Sothoth, "Who the hell do you think I am?!"

And by his very essence, Yog-Sothoth shall be turned into spiral energy to feed his drill.

Inaccuracy fixed.

Coidzor

2011-07-30, 11:55 AM

Of course, what being "spacetime" actually means when you have a planar multiverse like D&D which you're using in order to have Asmodeus in the picture is being ignored.

Hell, if he's only the space-time for a particular prime, then even Mechanus Bot could probably just throw him back into the far realm. & Asmodeus could definitely get a Just As Planned resolution to that kind of conflict.

Again ... omnipotence.

I'm pretty sure the only statted up entity with omnipotence as a formal ability is Pun-Pun, who figured out how to create new abilities rather than just grant himself any extant ability.

Ravens_cry

2011-07-30, 11:56 AM

And Asmodeus has a drill. And that drill will pierce the very heavens (meaning the space with Yog is)! And he will yell at Yog-Sothoth, "Who the hell do you think I am?!"

And by his very essence, Yog-Sothoth shall be turned into spiral energy to feed his drill.
I don't think either Asmodeus or Yog-Sothoth directly exist in Exalted.

Alleran

2011-07-30, 12:03 PM

And Asmodeus has a drill. And that drill will pierce the very heavens (meaning the space with Yog is)! And he will yell at Yog-Sothoth, "Who the hell do you think I am?!"

And by his very essence, Yog-Sothoth shall be turned into spiral energy to feed his drill.
The one fight that I would have no problem declaring Yog-Sothoth to be the loser of (or Asmodeus and Azathoth, for that matter) would be one where he (or they) goes up against the Dai-Gurren Brigade.

gkathellar

2011-07-30, 12:08 PM

The one fight that I would have no problem declaring Yog-Sothoth to be the loser of (or Asmodeus and Azathoth, for that matter) would be one where he (or they) goes up against the Dai-Gurren Brigade.

You know the best part of that? Any major enemy the Dai-Gurren Brigade fights eventually ends up as a friend and possibly a member of the Dai-Gurren Brigade. Which means if the Dai-Gurren Brigade fights the Mythos ...

Starbuck_II

2011-07-30, 12:13 PM

You know the best part of that? Any major enemy the Dai-Gurren Brigade fights eventually ends up as a friend and possibly a member of the Dai-Gurren Brigade. Which means if the Dai-Gurren Brigade fights the Mythos ...

Yog-Sothoth becomes caring and the universe becomes a happier place?

gkathellar

2011-07-30, 12:18 PM

Yog-Sothoth becomes caring and the universe becomes a happier place?

I guess, sure, whatever.

More importantly, Yog-Sothoth gets a giant Yog-Sothoth-shaped robot! Nothing can go wrong!

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-30, 12:22 PM

Yog-Sothoth is not space-time. It's the Lurker on the Threshold, the Key and the Gate — coterminous with all of space and all of time, but existent outside of it. It can affect space-time, however, as a result of its nigh-omnipotence.

"Lurker on the Threshold," "Key and the Gate"

Asmodeus can do that too - "King of Hell, Lord of the Ninth, Prince of Nessus."

The titles held by the beings of the Mythos really cease to impress after awhile. Let's put this another way; have we ever seen Yog-Sothoth actually exert that omnipotence in any meaningful way?

I'm curious as to why you think an immortal, invincible, all-knowing, unstoppable monster-god has any use for a gun.

It was meant to be funny. A joke. What I meant was that I doubt Yog-Sothoth can simply "snap his fingers," as it were, and unmake Asmodeus. If he wants to kill Asmodeus, then he has to do it the same way any being that wants to kill Asmodeus would have to do it - through violent action.

kabreras

2011-07-30, 12:22 PM

Question on this.

Yog-Sothoth is spacetime. Cool, I get that. But can he actually affect it?

Remember that if Yog is spacetime than anything he does to change spacetime will change himself...possibly in ways he can't necessarily predict since they by definition don't actually exist without a change in spacetime.

Not to mention that being spacetime doesn't necessarily mean that he has any more power to affect it than a mortal being...possibly even less.

(That is, he could totally go back in time and kill Asmodeus. But to do that he still has to get a gun and kill him the old-fashioned way; he just tries to do it when Asmodeus was less powerful)

As we all know, Knowledge of an event does not necessarily mean you have the power to change it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQR41LAdPqw)

What i mean is that he dont have to have much power, when you know what was, is and will be you can act on the course of events that led to a specific thing.
The butterflie power :)
Yogg could act eons before Asmodeus even think about the fight by starting a chain of event that will end up with not thinking about the fight.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-30, 12:28 PM

What i mean is that he dont have to have much power, when you know what was, is and will be you can act on the course of events that led to a specific thing.
The butterflie power :)
Yogg could act eons before Asmodeus even think about the fight by starting a chain of event that will end up with not thinking about the fight.

But what would that do to Yog-Sothoth? Any alterations to spacetime carry a risk of creating a being that doesn't like Yog-Sothoth and has the ability to actually stand up to it, since Yog-Sothoth can't know about the effects of the changes to spacetime until he's actually made them; but since those changes revebrate across all of spacetime it also means that the whole canvas changes as soon as he touches it.
Pun-pun:And we're here!
Yog-Sothoth: Me damn it! hold still!
So he could unmake Asmodeus and then find that the entire canvas of realiy has become a very angry kobold omnideity, who puts Asmodeus back and then steps outside of the canvas to have a "talk" with Yog-Sothoth...

...hey I think I just explained 3rd Edition.

rayne_dragon

2011-07-30, 12:34 PM

First-edition D&D: Yog-Sothoth wins.

Asmodeus only has 1 attack which does 2d6+2 damage and has 199 hit points.
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRonZCRe2t0rhPWvokoiSaz5jDIXvUEu HFWHYh5Q8X_cqNTETdHWQ

Yog-Sothoth has 400 HP, 12 attacks each doing 1d8 damage.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4sF4uroIS-i75CtoIc1SWW0UNUhN5Uh9_0Ppa91Rkc9zTQWBG

I approve of this. When the great old ones awaken, I'm sure you'll be eaten first (http://rubbersuitstudios.com/ptcct.htm).

The titles held by the beings of the Mythos really cease to impress after awhile. Let's put this another way; have we ever seen Yog-Sothoth actually exert that omnipotence in any meaningful way?

No, but mostly because if we did we wouldn't be around to talk about it. :smalltongue:

kabreras

2011-07-30, 12:47 PM

But what would that do to Yog-Sothoth? Any alterations to spacetime carry a risk of creating a being that doesn't like Yog-Sothoth and has the ability to actually stand up to it, since Yog-Sothoth can't know about the effects of the changes to spacetime until he's actually made them; but since those changes revebrate across all of spacetime it also means that the whole canvas changes as soon as he touches it.

So he could unmake Asmodeus and then find that the entire canvas of realiy has become a very angry kobold omnideity, who puts Asmodeus back and then steps outside of the canvas to have a "talk" with Yog-Sothoth...

...hey I think I just explained 3rd Edition.

Well imo if something fail, he did it again so it dont fail. Yogg can then only make all the time the perfect moove cause if its not, he did something else till it was the perfect moove.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-30, 01:16 PM

Pun-pun: We're fighting up here too!
Yog-Sothoth: Gah! I don't like fighting something on equal terms!

Well imo if something fail, he did it again so it dont fail. Yogg can then only make all the time the perfect moove cause if its not, he did something else till it was the perfect moove.

Except that he could potentially create a being that's also removed from all time, or change reality so one could come into being without him realizing it until it's "too late"

Pun-pun: Just try it!
Yog-Sothoth: No way, nuh-uh, I'm unmaking you.
Pun-pun: Omnipresence is awesome
Yog-Sothoth: I don't like you!
Pun-pun: Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu!
Pazuzu: Yo
Pun-pun: I wish for Manipulate form! Go me!
Yog-Sothoth: I think not!
Pun-pun: I think so!
Pazuzu: Your wish is my command!
Pun-pun: SCORE!
Pun-pun: Nope. I'm omnipresent now. I have always existed.
Yog-Sothoth: I am going to stop this right now!
Pun-pun: Nope. I'm omnipresent now. I have always existed.

The around is what a nonlinear battle looks like to linear beings.

Pun-pun: I win!
Yog-Sothoth: This is bull! I am the Key and the Gate!
Pun-Pun: I am the Walrus!

Starbuck_II

2011-07-30, 01:18 PM

Well imo if something fail, he did it again so it dont fail. Yogg can then only make all the time the perfect moove cause if its not, he did something else till it was the perfect moove.

Depends on how time travel works for Yog.

Is it Bill & Ted? Is it Quantum Leap? Is it Radiant Historia? Is it Terminator?

Each type of time travel has different rules applying bonuses and restrictions.

Unless we quantify the type we are discussing it seems mostly, "is too" "is not".

Surprised no one has written a paper on the different ideals of time travel seen in media.

As an aside: Terminator time travel seems the weirdest.

Apparently, you can change time and still have sent the person to change time. Unlike Bill & Ted, where if you had changed it you wouldn't need to change it (creating a paradox).

Coidzor

2011-07-30, 01:35 PM

Depends on how time travel works for Yog.

Is it Bill & Ted? Is it Quantum Leap? Is it Radiant Historia? Is it Terminator?

Each type of time travel has different rules applying bonuses and restrictions.

Unless we quantify the type we are discussing it seems mostly, "is too" "is not".

Surprised no one has written a paper on the different ideals of time travel seen in media.

Well (http://qntm.org/blog)..... This guy (http://qntm.org/camtime) sorta kinda (http://qntm.org/golden) has gone (http://qntm.org/terminator) into (http://qntm.org/coffin)it (http://qntm.org/news_timewar)a fair bit (http://qntm.org/models), though he was more well known for his work on destroying the earth. (http://qntm.org/destroy)

kabreras

2011-07-30, 01:43 PM

Depends on how time travel works for Yog.

He doesnt time travel, he is continuous with all the time at the same moment and permanently.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-30, 01:45 PM

As an aside: Terminator time travel seems the weirdest.

Apparently, you can change time and still have sent the person to change time.

It actually makes a little (tiny) bit of sense if you think about things a bit. When a time traveller in Terminator goes backwards, they're removed from the timeline then and insterted in now or before. Changing the past doesn't change the act of time travel because they were by definition removed from time when they did that.

Basically Terminator and like films operate using my favorite version of time travel, which is to say that all of time is in a Stable Time Loop...unless you kick it really hard.

He doesnt time travel, he is continuous with all the time at the same moment and permanently.

Which is actually worse for him in a way because it means he can't really react very well to changes in the timeline, because to him everything changes at once.

There are advantages to being linear creatures...

kabreras

2011-07-30, 01:52 PM

Which is actually worse for him in a way because it means he can't really react very well to changes in the timeline, because to him everything changes at once.

There are advantages to being linear creatures...

But for something to alter time it would be that there is a before to that alteration and that something made this alteration (someone poping in a time line without a past for exemple) so he could act and stop the alteration before it is made, only that he would do that if what the alteration did was bad for him.
Witch wouldnt happend cause he wouldnt allow something bad or possibly bad for him to happend in the 1st place.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-30, 02:01 PM

But for something to alter time it would be that there is a before to that alteration and that something made this alteration (someone poping in a time line without a past for exemple) so he could act and stop the alteration before it is made, only that he would do that if what the alteration did was bad for him.
Witch wouldnt happend cause he wouldnt allow something bad or possibly bad for him to happend in the 1st place.

Except we reach the problem again that changing the canvas changes the whole canvas from that point forward instantly. More prominantly, any change he makes might create a being that can actually stop him from making further changes.

And the problem gets worse the earlier in time he makes the change, since the earlier the change, the more the canvas changes.

Basically, unmaking Asmodeus might instantly make Pun-pun, and Yog-Sothoth can't stop that from happening without not unmaking Asmodeus in the first place...however he might not think of this and unmake Asmodeus, thereby making Pun-pun, and he cannot know that unmaking Asmodeus will make Pun-Pun.

Once Pun-pun exists, Yog-Sothoth cannot unmake Pun-pun because Pun-pun has the power to actually stop Yog-Sothoth from making changes to reality.

Tvtyrant

2011-07-30, 02:03 PM

I'm making a Goku vs. Superman thread next, because that would have at least as much of a chance of being fulfilling as this one.

Who wins? The one you like more.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-30, 02:07 PM

I'm making a Goku vs. Superman thread next, because that would have at least as much of a chance of being fulfilling as this one.

Who wins? The one you like more.

Mmn...

...see, the problem is that Goku VS Superman rarely pauses to say which Goku and which Superman, as both have varying levels of power over their lives. Kingdom Come Superman (the one that can take nukes to the face and isn't affected by Kryptonite anymore) would mop the floor with Dragonball kid Goku, for example...

...mostly my view is this. Superman is at 100% of his power all the time. Goku has the charge up. So Superman has a distinct advantage in any fight unless Goku can start the fight in one of his Ssj forms.

DeltaEmil

2011-07-30, 02:09 PM

I approve of this. When the great old ones awaken, I'm sure you'll be eaten first (http://rubbersuitstudios.com/ptcct.htm).FOOL! I AM THE WEASEL!

I have already been (b)eaten.

kabreras

2011-07-30, 02:14 PM

Once Pun-pun exists, Yog-Sothoth cannot unmake Pun-pun because Pun-pun has the power to actually stop Yog-Sothoth from making changes to reality.

Yogg never change reality he change the past, that the reality change would be correct only if peoples could remember the other time line but they cant as it never existed.

Thiyr

2011-07-30, 02:22 PM

Yogg never change reality he change the past, that the reality change would be correct only if peoples could remember the other time line but they cant as it never existed.

The thing is, señor pun pun can still prevent Yoggy. He is equally coterminous, and decidedly more powerful, if not just because he can do anything Yogg can while simultaneously having an ability which simply states "Prevent whatever Yog-Sothoth does". The Great Bad Joke Kobold is kinda weird like that.

kabreras

2011-07-30, 02:29 PM

The thing is, señor pun pun can still prevent Yoggy. He is equally coterminous, and decidedly more powerful, if not just because he can do anything Yogg can while simultaneously having an ability which simply states "Prevent whatever Yog-Sothoth does". The Great Bad Joke Kobold is kinda weird like that.

But Pun-Pun if created by an event started by Yogg wouldnt be able tostop Yogg from acting before this event as he didnt exist...

Is is normal that the more i try to think about this i feel like my brain is sliping out my ears ?

Gensh

2011-07-30, 02:46 PM

What a good deal of Asmo's proponents aren't seeing is that by being coterminous with all Space, Yog-Sothoth is. There's no changing the timeline because Yog-Sothoth's presence locks it into Azathoth's design. You can only think you've changed the timeline. The only way to "win" against the Mythos is to foil one of Nyarlathotep's schemes, but that too would be accounted for, hence omniscience. It is for this very reason that Pun-Pun is unable to be created. :smallamused:

BTW, 3.5 Asmo is kind of a loser; Mephisto makes the better Lord Genome. He even has the beard for it.

Coidzor

2011-07-30, 02:54 PM

What a good deal of Asmo's proponents aren't seeing is that by being coterminous with all Space, Yog-Sothoth is.

And what Yog-Sothoth's proponents aren't seeing is that by including Asmodeus in the same multiverse as Yog-Sothoth, you've fundamentally altered what Space and Time are by including the planar multiverse of D&D which is by its very nature antithetical to the existence of Yog-Sothoth and the rest of the Mythos, and thus have to answer the question as to whether Yog-Sothoth's "I am Space" applies to planar, multiplanar, and interplanar reality.

Yog-Sothoth has so far not been able to be proven to be capable of applying beyond the physical reality of a single material plane. Or if he can even apply to a single material plane given the changes made necessary to include Asmodeus.

Well, that and this was about actual game mechanical abilities in the first place.

Is is normal that the more i try to think about this i feel like my brain is sliping out my ears ?

That's the point, really.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-30, 03:04 PM

But Pun-Pun if created by an event started by Yogg wouldnt be able tostop Yogg from acting before this event as he didnt exist...

Yes, Pun-pun could. Because the entire tapestry is changed instantly, Pun-pun is instantly created and instantly becomes coternimus with all spacetime as well. As soon as Pun-pun is created he exists before his own creation.

Gensh

2011-07-30, 03:16 PM

And what Yog-Sothoth's proponents aren't seeing is that by including Asmodeus in the same multiverse as Yog-Sothoth, you've fundamentally altered what Space and Time are by including the planar multiverse of D&D which is by its very nature antithetical to the existence of Yog-Sothoth and the rest of the Mythos, and thus have to answer the question as to whether Yog-Sothoth's "I am Space" applies to planar, multiplanar, and interplanar reality.

Yog-Sothoth has so far not been able to be proven to be capable of applying beyond the physical reality of a single material plane. Or if he can even apply to a single material plane given the changes made necessary to include Asmodeus.

The Quest for Unknown Kadath takes place almost entirely within the dream world, which is explicitly listed as a (optional) plane. The scene of the story consists of Randolph Carter having an extensive conversation with Nyarlathotep, the avatar/split personality of Azathoth in Kadath, the home of Earth's gods. Throughout the story, it strongly implies that it is in fact the dream world that matters; that is to say that the outer planes are more prominent than the material, hence the principle forces in the Mythos would be even mightier there, which would make sense with the lore that the Prime Material is a neutral ground that no one likes to go to. This is of course ignoring the Far Realm in its entirety due to the fact that rules concerning it are scarce, as should be any rules concerning members of the Mythos.

On a different note, while it is implied that the Mythos is only mighty within the realms of imagination, the same can be said of how much of Asmo's power is tied up in Hell. Assuming that they're both at full power, with Yog-Sothoth being the Gate and the Key rather than rainbow bubbles and Asmo revealing himself to be Ahriman, Yog-Sothoth would win, simply because the whole is greater than any part; i.e. Ahriman would be effectively one quarter (fifth?) of Yog-Sothoth/Azathoth. As was previously mentioned, a dickery competition between Nyarlathotep and Asmo would be more entertaining.

Well, that and this was about actual game mechanical abilities in the first place.

That's the point, really.

You hush now. :smallwink:

Yes, Pun-pun could. Because the entire tapestry is changed instantly, Pun-pun is instantly created and instantly becomes coternimus with all spacetime as well. As soon as Pun-pun is created he exists before his own creation.

While that is, in fact, exactly what would happen, it can't happen unless it somehow serves unfathomable Yog-Sothoth's purposes, simply because Yog-Sothoth was coterminous first.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-30, 03:29 PM

While that is, in fact, exactly what would happen, it can't happen unless it somehow serves unfathomable Yog-Sothoth's purposes, simply because Yog-Sothoth was coterminous first.

No, both Pun-pun and Yog-Sothoth were "first" (inasmuch as that can apply to nonlinear beings) if Yog brings Pun-pun into being. Pun-pun essentially begins to exist before his own creation. Neither of them have priority.

Again, any change to the canvas changes all of the canvas instantly, from Yog-Sothoth's perspective; and Yog-Sothoth can't know what changing the canvas will do without actually changing it, so he can't work any changes that occur into his plans, at least not without any more accuracy than a linear being can plan for the future.

Gensh

2011-07-30, 03:36 PM

No, both Pun-pun and Yog-Sothoth were "first" (inasmuch as that can apply to nonlinear beings) if Yog brings Pun-pun into being. Pun-pun essentially begins to exist before his own creation. Neither of them have priority.

Yes, but again, this is only true if Yog-Sothoth allows it, as the standard interpretation of time travel would imply the creation of a new timeline. While Pun-Pun and Yog-Sothoth (or perhaps Pun-Sothoth) would be coterminous retroactively forever, there would exist a single timeline where Pun-Pun is an ordinary Kobold. That timeline would die at the moment of his ascension, but the point remains.

Again, any change to the canvas changes all of the canvas instantly, from Yog-Sothoth's perspective; and Yog-Sothoth can't know what changing the canvas will do without actually changing it, so he can't work any changes that occur into his plans, at least not without any more accuracy than a linear being can plan for the future.

Omniscience specifically means all-knowing rather than all-seeing as many people tend to believe (I don't know if that's you; I'm just putting it out there), so as a result, Yog-Sothoth would in fact know exactly what the ascension of Pun-Pun would do to his plans as of the instance of his creation, which of course is contemporaneous to the creation of the multiverse.

Ravens_cry

2011-07-30, 04:08 PM

Yes, Pun-pun could. Because the entire tapestry is changed instantly, Pun-pun is instantly created and instantly becomes coternimus with all spacetime as well. As soon as Pun-pun is created he exists before his own creation.
That's reminds me of the argument that time travel, once invented, has always been invented. :smallamused:

gkathellar

2011-07-30, 04:13 PM

But what would that do to Yog-Sothoth? Any alterations to spacetime carry a risk of creating a being that doesn't like Yog-Sothoth and has the ability to actually stand up to it, since Yog-Sothoth can't know about the effects of the changes to spacetime until he's actually made them; but since those changes revebrate across all of spacetime it also means that the whole canvas changes as soon as he touches it.

Uh ... you're proceeding from the assumption that things like linear time and continuity and "the way time works" matter to an entity like Yog-Sothoth. The Outer Gods are big, nasty things that simply operate on wavelengths human beings aren't prepared to look at without going insane.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-30, 05:25 PM

Yes, but again, this is only true if Yog-Sothoth allows it, as the standard interpretation of time travel would imply the creation of a new timeline. While Pun-Pun and Yog-Sothoth (or perhaps Pun-Sothoth) would be coterminous retroactively forever, there would exist a single timeline where Pun-Pun is an ordinary Kobold. That timeline would die at the moment of his ascension, but the point remains.

There is no time travel involved. Time is a canvas with a picture on it that Yog-Sothoth can see every detail of, and Yog-Sothoth is holding a brush with paint on it, but he doesn't know what color of paint it is.

Omniscience specifically means all-knowing rather than all-seeing as many people tend to believe (I don't know if that's you; I'm just putting it out there), so as a result, Yog-Sothoth would in fact know exactly what the ascension of Pun-Pun would do to his plans as of the instance of his creation, which of course is contemporaneous to the creation of the multiverse.

Yog-Sothoth is really only coming across as omniscient because he is Time, rather than having an actual special power that grants him the ability to be such.

We're all motes on the canvas; we can't possibly know the whole picture. Yog-Sothoth is a thing that is looking at the picture in its entirety; he's omniscient because he is aware of all of it.

But then there's that brush...

Uh ... you're proceeding from the assumption that things like linear time and continuity and "the way time works" matter to an entity like Yog-Sothoth. The Outer Gods are big, nasty things that simply operate on wavelengths human beings aren't prepared to look at without going insane.

I don't think I've ever looked at Yog-Sothoth from a linear perspective, except in my first post (as conjecture); I did have a later post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11529808&postcount=113), though, that detailed what a fight between Yog-Sothoth and Pun-pun would actually look like through linear eyes, however.

Gensh

2011-07-30, 05:47 PM

There is no time travel involved. Time is a canvas with a picture on it that Yog-Sothoth can see every detail of, and Yog-Sothoth is holding a brush with paint on it, but he doesn't know what color of paint it is.

That's why he's the Gate and the Key. Yog-Sothoth is canvas and the brush. Azathoth is the blind idiot painter. Not even mentioning that I wasn't talking about time travel as time travel, but rather as an example for the narrative traits of temporal mechanics. There would be no time travel involved, but Doc Brown's commentary about timelines remains relevant.

Yog-Sothoth is really only coming across as omniscient because he is Time, rather than having an actual special power that grants him the ability to be such.

This is because he's explicitly called out as omniscient+2. No, really. I don't get it either.

We're all motes on the canvas; we can't possibly know the whole picture. Yog-Sothoth is a thing that is looking at the picture in its entirety; he's omniscient because he is aware of all of it.

But then there's that brush...

Yog-Sothoth is not a thing, but rather a presence. What exactly he is can only be vaguely defined in ordinary terms. Nevertheless, he is not something outside of the canvas. He is the Gate and the Key; the canvas and the brush. As you mentioned, humans are but bits of paint. We have absolutely no control over the brush held by Azathoth. The best we can do is accidentally get in his eye like Randolph Carter.

kabreras

2011-07-30, 06:13 PM

You notice how we just sliped from Asmodeus / Yog-Sothoth to Pun Pun / Yog-Sothoth.

Thats clearly say that Asmo is anyway not a mater for him :)

Narren

2011-07-30, 06:23 PM

Mmn...
...mostly my view is this. Superman is at 100% of his power all the time. Goku has the charge up. So Superman has a distinct advantage in any fight unless Goku can start the fight in one of his Ssj forms.

Unless Goku is already stronger than Superman without powering up. Who knows? It's not like we know Superman's power level (which would vary considerably depending on the writer). I really don't like most cross-overs (especially a "vs" one) because you have to use contradicting evidence that was never meant to exist side by side.

Halna LeGavilk

2011-07-30, 06:36 PM

DeltaEmil

2011-07-30, 06:55 PM

Do we have stats for Yog-Sothoth for 3.x-edition?

If yes, then we can pit him against the 3.5-Asmodeus who does have stats (and no matter what his fans say, if a GM does want to play a campaign where you can kill Asmodeus in 3.5, that's what he can officially use).

If we don't have stats for 3.5-Yog-Sothoth, then this thread does not belong in this sub-forum. It should be put in the media-subforum, where VS-Threads are common-place.

*.*.*.*

2011-07-30, 06:57 PM

DeltaEmil

2011-07-30, 07:03 PM

Good. Then let's compare the statted 3.5-Asmodeus against the statted 3.x-Yog-Sothoth and be done with it.

Gensh

2011-07-30, 07:15 PM

Good. Then let's compare the statted 3.5-Asmodeus against the statted 3.x-Yog-Sothoth and be done with it.

That particular conflict was unwittingly solved by the OP.

Yog Sothoth can teleport without error anywhere in time or space as a move action and has a supernatural one-mile-ranged touch attack that kills a target unless they make a DC 79 fort save (Asmodeus has a touch AC of 19 and a fort save of +27).

No contest.

Urpriest

2011-07-30, 07:48 PM

That particular conflict was unwittingly solved by the OP.

No contest.

Teleport Without Error can't cross planar boundaries. :P

Also, have we resolved the issue of Death Ward?

Gensh

2011-07-30, 07:58 PM

Teleport Without Error can't cross planar boundaries. :P

Also, have we resolved the issue of Death Ward?

As I previously mentioned, Yog-Sothoth's native plane would more than likely be the Plane of Dreams, which connects to any plane that has a dreamer. With the sheer ease Mythos members have with setting up cults, it wouldn't be difficult to arrange getting someone to fall asleep in Hell. Alternatively, since it's specified that time travel is allowed, Yog-Sothoth could walk to Hell and still get there before Asmo. :smallbiggrin:

The big problem with fighting Asmo is that his effectiveness depends on the Dungeon Master, but out of the box, he probably wouldn't have it up. You have to remember that, for example, Complete Mage suggested casters take levels of fighter for the weapon proficiencies.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-30, 11:19 PM

Yog-Sothoth beats Pun-Pun easily. Pun-Pun can be beaten by destroying him before he becomes invincible. Yog-Sothoth knows this, because Yog-Sothoth knows everything. Since he is coterminous with all points of space and time, Yog-Sothoth knows the conditions of how Pun-Pun is formed, and, without any effort, simply doesn't allow those conditions to come together.

That's...remarkably three-dimensional thinking there.

Again, any change to time changes all of time, and the drawback to an "outside" view of time is that all those changes happen simultaneously to Yog-Sothoth's point of view.

He can't be prescient of the effects of his changes because he isn't coternimus with things that don't exist - unmade alternate timelines - just with Time as it actually is. He might have some idea of what the changes do, but he really is incapable of having any more knowledge of possibilities than any linear being.

That's why he's the Gate and the Key. Yog-Sothoth is canvas and the brush. Azathoth is the blind idiot painter. Not even mentioning that I wasn't talking about time travel as time travel, but rather as an example for the narrative traits of temporal mechanics. There would be no time travel involved, but Doc Brown's commentary about timelines remains relevant.

What does the Gate and the Key even mean,, anyway? In any event, nothing about Yog-Sothoth that I'm reading on Wiki suggests that he's got the kind of Mary Sue power you're ascribing him, and actually the fact that he's apparenlty locked outside of the universe seems to suggest that he's really quite limited in what he can actually do.

(how can the Gate and the Key be locked outside? Maybe he's got the wrong key or something. Just because he's an Outer God doesn't mean he doesn't lose keys like the rest of us...)

Coidzor

2011-07-30, 11:41 PM

(how can the Gate and the Key be locked outside? Maybe he's got the wrong key or something. Just because he's an Outer God doesn't mean he doesn't lose keys like the rest of us...)

A gate can't travel through itself, after all. If that's the particular meaning one wants to ascribe to the epithet.

As I previously mentioned, Yog-Sothoth's native plane would more than likely be the Plane of Dreams, which connects to any plane that has a dreamer.

Which doesn't matter. You "could" "physically" travel, possibly, if the DM allowed you to, but you still would not be able to cross the planar barrier via teleport.

You notice how we just sliped from Asmodeus / Yog-Sothoth to Pun Pun / Yog-Sothoth.

Thats clearly say that Asmo is anyway not a mater for him :)

All that shows is that giving Yog-Sothoth unstatted, unqualified, and unquantified powers is still less than Pun-Pun's ability to just make up powers. :smalltongue:

Gensh

2011-07-30, 11:57 PM

Again, any change to time changes all of time, and the drawback to an "outside" view of time is that all those changes happen simultaneously to Yog-Sothoth's point of view.

He can't be prescient of the effects of his changes because he isn't coternimus with things that don't exist - unmade alternate timelines - just with Time as it actually is. He might have some idea of what the changes do, but he really is incapable of having any more knowledge of possibilities than any linear being.

Yog-Sothoth is coterminous with all space, of which time is a single dimension. Imagine a two-dimensional being, the King of Hearts. He's sitting on a table with the rest of his royal court. Suddenly, I place a glass on the table, and he's like "Whoa, what is this thing and where did it come from?" Obviously, you would know exactly what I did because you can see in three dimensions, while the King cannot. In this case, we (including Asmo and Pun-Pun) would be the playing cards. Anything we might do can be seen by Yog-Sothoth because he can see in higher dimensions.

What does the Gate and the Key even mean,, anyway?

"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth’s fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread."

In any event, nothing about Yog-Sothoth that I'm reading on Wiki suggests that he's got the kind of Mary Sue power you're ascribing him, and actually the fact that he's apparenlty locked outside of the universe seems to suggest that he's really quite limited in what he can actually do.

You've used that term twice now, and I don't think you actually know what it means.

(how can the Gate and the Key be locked outside? Maybe he's got the wrong key or something. Just because he's an Outer God doesn't mean he doesn't lose keys like the rest of us...)

Now is not the proper time for the return of the Great Old Ones. Remember how the door to Moria could only be opened under a very specific set of circumstances that only those who were friends to the city would know? It's pretty much like that, except with a lot of "when the stars are right" jibberish.

A gate can't travel through itself, after all. If that's the particular meaning one wants to ascribe to the epithet.

Ironically, this is actually one of the more reasonable theories as to why he spawned a couple of half-humans.

Which doesn't matter. You "could" "physically" travel, possibly, if the DM allowed you to, but you still would not be able to cross the planar barrier via teleport.

The reason for that particular statement was to show that Yog-Sothoth does in fact have ties to the Outer Planes, which was a matter of contention. It doesn't matter whether or not his statted teleport ability lets him get there or not since he's certainly powerful enough to have a minion get him there any way he wants. And remember, this is a generic vs match: there's no DM to arbitrate things, so we have to base them purely off of their original source material. My inclusion of the Plane of Dreams into the debate is due to Kadath's importance.

All that shows is that giving Yog-Sothoth unstatted, unqualified, and unquantified powers is still less than Pun-Pun's ability to just make up powers. :smalltongue:

Well, that's the point. Yog-Sothoth is purely a plot device; one of the most completely abstract antagonists one could have. That's what the Mythos is about: "This collection of rainbow bubbles is omniscient, and it said squid monsters are going to eat your soul. The end." On the other hand, Pun-Pun is (theoretically) a player character. In a battle of this scale, he who strikes first instantly wins forever, so the victory falls to the plot device who existed since the beginning of time.

Coidzor

2011-07-31, 12:13 AM

The reason for that particular statement was to show that Yog-Sothoth does in fact have ties to the Outer Planes, which was a matter of contention.

Then I apologize for not being clearer. That was not my contention. My contention was that it's impossible to quantify meaningfully how, if at all, Yog-Sothoth does interact with the kind of D&D universe set up necessary for this kind of confrontation to occur. As Asmodeus cannot exist in the home universe of the Mythos as it is devoid of true gods & without an actual spiritual realm with ties to morality which is kinda what Ol' Scratch is all about.

The existence of one precludes the existence of the other. It's like discussing who would win in a wrestling match between Thor and Cthulhu, they cannot both exist given the parameters of their home universes and fundamental natures & statements about reality that they make by existing.

So, the closest we can actually get is the facsimile approximation that's actually statted up, so those books of the mythos that keep being brought up as irrefutable proof that Yog-Sothoth auto-wins...

...are about as meaningful as the stories of the antics of Asmodeus leaving a full tea service out & ready for the adventurers who broke into his layer to steal the pact primeval from him for the purpose of this discussion.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-31, 12:13 AM

Well, that's the point. Yog-Sothoth is purely a plot device; one of the most completely abstract antagonists one could have. That's what the Mythos is about: "This collection of rainbow bubbles is omniscient, and it said squid monsters are going to eat your soul. The end." On the other hand, Pun-Pun is (theoretically) a player character. In a battle of this scale, he who strikes first instantly wins forever, so the victory falls to the plot device who existed since the beginning of time.

So Pun-pun, then. Remember that Pun-pun exists before his own creation. He's just as removed from cause/effect as Yog-Sothoth and has Protection from Yog Sothoth on top of that.

No, seriously, it's an extraordinary ability.

Protection from Yog-Sothoth (Ex): Pun-pun cannot be affected by Yog-Sothoth in any way.
Nonlinear Existance (Ex): Pun-pun exists prior to his own creation.

Shadow Lord

2011-07-31, 12:20 AM

Actually, in CoC d20 it specifies that Yoggie can even travel across planes with his teleport ability.

Rant time, in full caps this time!

CAN EVERYONE STOP TALKING ABOUT GOD DAMN FREAKING PUN PUN IN A DISCUSSION ABOUT YOG SOTHOTH AND ASMODEOUS?

Silus

2011-07-31, 12:21 AM

Two bits that I feel the need to contribute.

1. Between the two, I'd go with option #3: The PCs. Regardless of when or where this fight would take place, you just know a party of PCs would pop up and stomp them both somehow (They're more wild card than a Pantheon of Chaotic Neutral deities). Maybe after gauging the odds at "A million to one" and then commenting "but it just might work".

2. She was mentioned earlier in the thread, but what of the Lady of Pain vs Yog (assuming he tried to mess with Sigil)? Seems a bit more of a fair fight IMO.

Gensh

2011-07-31, 12:35 AM

Then I apologize for not being clearer. That was not my contention. My contention was that it's impossible to quantify meaningfully how, if at all, Yog-Sothoth does interact with the kind of D&D universe set up necessary for this kind of confrontation to occur. As Asmodeus cannot exist in the home universe of the Mythos as it is devoid of true gods & without an actual spiritual realm with ties to morality which is kinda what Ol' Scratch is all about.

Right, and I agreed with this point earlier, but continued to argue that if you finagle things just right, you can have reasonable facsimiles do combat, wherein Yog-Sothoth would win. While the Dream Cycle is often ignored when considering the Mythos, it did establish that the dreamscape is in fact what matters, rather than the material world, and the reason why there was no longer any gods in the material world is because the material world got boring after science became a big deal. In particular, Earth's gods are described as being so many flies in comparison to the Great Old Ones. While these gods aren't connected to morality, there's no reason why we can't assume that their undefined number does in fact contain the traditional Earth pantheons, and as I said before, Zeus is among the most powerful of all the statted gods.

The existence of one precludes the existence of the other. It's like discussing who would win in a wrestling match between Thor and Cthulhu, they cannot both exist given the parameters of their home universes and fundamental natures & statements about reality that they make by existing.

As above, not necessarily, especially if you equate Cthulhu with Jormund as the (absolutely terribad) Simon's Necronomicon does. And whaddaya know, Cthulhu wins! :smallwink:

So, the closest we can actually get is the facsimile approximation that's actually statted up, so those books of the mythos that keep being brought up as irrefutable proof that Yog-Sothoth auto-wins...

...are about as meaningful as the stories of the antics of Asmodeus leaving a full tea service out & ready for the adventurers who broke into his layer to steal the pact primeval from him for the purpose of this discussion.

While your point about only including approximations of the combatants is true, the difference is that they would be constructed based on canon materials, cutting out only those parts that are fundamentally incompatible (and to keep things organized, the "canon" Lovecraft fanfiction).

So Pun-pun, then. Remember that Pun-pun exists before his own creation. He's just as removed from cause/effect as Yog-Sothoth and has Protection from Yog Sothoth on top of that.

No, seriously, it's an extraordinary ability.

Protection from Yog-Sothoth (Ex): Pun-pun cannot be affected by Yog-Sothoth in any way.
Nonlinear Existance (Ex): Pun-pun exists prior to his own creation.

/facepalm
You know I can respect someone who legitimately argues an opposing point, but you're not even reading any of this, are you? Yog-Sothoth cannot be beaten except under very specific circumstances, seeing as how he is a DM plot device. Any DM clever enough to actually run a Mythos game using 3.5 would smack you upside the head with the Player's Handbook before letting that pass and would have a perfectly valid story explanation for both your head injury and your character's death, which I have already explained like twice now.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-31, 12:38 AM

2. She was mentioned earlier in the thread, but what of the Lady of Pain vs Yog (assuming he tried to mess with Sigil)? Seems a bit more of a fair fight IMO.

That's why I stopped talking about Asmodeus; Yog-Sothoth is coming across as an overdeity, which means that he's way out of his league. I acknowledge that.

That's why I brought up Pun-pun, Her Serenity, Ao...you need to be an overdeity to fight an overdeity.

As for the Lady of Pain...she utterly, effortless obliterated the God of Portals, Aoskar, and his entire church, with a thought, in Sigil, where he should have been at the absolute height of his power.

So I'm thinking that Yog wouldn't do so well.

/facepalm
You know I can respect someone who legitimately argues an opposing point, but you're not even reading any of this, are you? Yog-Sothoth cannot be beaten except under very specific circumstances, seeing as how he is a DM plot device. Any DM clever enough to actually run a Mythos game using 3.5 would smack you upside the head with the Player's Handbook before letting that pass and would have a perfectly valid story explanation for both your head injury and your character's death, which I have already explained like twice now.

The problem here is that Pun-pun also has protection from plot devices...also the DM smacking the player upside the head for building Pun-pun when they allowed Serpent Kingdoms in the first place* doesn't seem very fair.

...also we're not talking about Pun-pun VS Yog-Sothoth as a plot device. Both are characters in their own right, however ill-defined one is; that's what we're talking about. Pun-pun as a character is pretty much at a power level that only God Sues and author avatars can match.

------------------------------------
*We wouldn't be having this discussion if Pun-pun wasn't a viable build for the given campaign.

Starbuck_II

2011-07-31, 12:54 AM

As above, not necessarily, especially if you equate Cthulhu with Jormund as the (absolutely terribad) Simon's Necronomicon does. And whaddaya know, Cthulhu wins! :smallwink:

Cthulhu was beaten like 10 times so far. A steamboat, lightning/ ghostbusters, etc.

/facepalm
You know I can respect someone who legitimately argues an opposing point, but you're not even reading any of this, are you? Yog-Sothoth cannot be beaten except under very specific circumstances, seeing as how he is a DM plot device. Any DM clever enough to actually run a Mythos game using 3.5 would smack you upside the head with the Player's Handbook before letting that pass and would have a perfectly valid story explanation for both your head injury and your character's death, which I have already explained like twice now.

Fine smack you if he gets upset that you keep beating him. But face it: Pun-pun is unpun(ish)able.

TheDarkDM

2011-07-31, 01:03 AM

That's why I stopped talking about Asmodeus; Yog-Sothoth is coming across as an overdeity, which means that he's way out of his league. I acknowledge that.

That's why I brought up Pun-pun, Her Serenity, Ao...you need to be an overdeity to fight an overdeity.

As for the Lady of Pain...she utterly, effortless obliterated the God of Portals, Aoskar, and his entire church, with a thought, in Sigil, where he should have been at the absolute height of his power.

So I'm thinking that Yog wouldn't do so well.

It should be noted that in the materials from whence the Lady draws her powers, it is strongly implied that Asmodeus is a Power on par with the Lady and is a cosmic keystone in the same vein as an Overgod, so dismissing him on that basis isn't really fair. However, neither is a strictly mechanical challenge, given that every statted version of Asmodeus in 3.5 has been an aspect of his greater self. Really, as has been stated before, it comes down to who you like better, as well as your interpretation of how material spacetime interacts with the Great Wheel of D&D cosmology.

Gensh

2011-07-31, 01:04 AM

The problem here is that Pun-pun also has protection from plot devices...also the DM smacking the player upside the head for building Pun-pun when they allowed Serpent Kingdoms in the first place* doesn't seem very fair.

As I previously mentioned, Yog-Sothoth, is coterminous with all space and is omniscient. For this reason, he would promptly kill anyone who tried summoning Pazuzu because he knows exactly what that leads to. Furthermore, the DM reserves the right to eject any player who flagrantly tramples over the spirit of sportsmanship and ruins the game for everyone.

God Sues

Seriously, stop using that word. That's not what it means. While that's often what the characters portrayed in these fights devolve into as a result of fanboys, the term doesn't actually mean what you think it does. And specifically, I'm going with established canon. The genre is horror, and the moral of the story is "Game over. Forever."

*We wouldn't be having this discussion if Pun-pun wasn't a viable build for the given campaign.

Pun-Pun is never a viable build outside of a lulz campaign, which wouldn't have Mythos characters portrayed as anything more than adorable chibis.

Cthulhu was beaten like 10 times so far. A steamboat, lightning/ ghostbusters, etc.

Right. But I was merely positing a hypothetical situation wherein Cthulhu could fight Thor. Since I said we'll only use Lovecraft's writings for this purpose, then the conclusion is that running him over with a boat yields enough nonlethal damage to render him unconscious, and that his regeneration is slow enough that the blow costs him his window of opportunity to escape from R'yleh.

But we're talking about Yog-Sothoth. Consider the power disparity between a pre-epic cleric and a greater deity. In this case, you'd replace cleric with...I dunno...epic wilder. As someone mentioned much earlier, Cthulhu d20 wasn't designed according to the same specs as D&D, so he's probably just a tank with a bunch of SLAs or something.

Fine smack you if he gets upset that you keep beating him. But face it: Pun-pun is unpun(ish)able.

Eh. I hold my games at my house. If anyone seriously tried to play Pun-Pun, I'd show them the door, and they would no longer be a member of the group.

TheDarkDM

2011-07-31, 01:15 AM

Seriously, stop using that word. That's not what it means. While that's often what the characters portrayed in these fights devolve into as a result of fanboys, the term doesn't actually mean what you think it does. And specifically, I'm going with established canon. The genre is horror, and the moral of the story is "Game over. Forever."

Right, but that's the genre that Yog-Sothoth is from, and inherently grants him the advantage. Meanwhile, Asmodeus is from a fantasy world in which even the worst eldritch horrors can be beaten. You can't just declare that this is taking place in the genre that immediately lends the advantage to Yoggy, nor can I declare that we're only discussing this in the realm of fantasy, in which literal personifications of evil have the advantage over material beings. This is what makes the comparison beyond simple stats untenable, as for each entity to exist in the same multiverse would be to invalidate both.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-31, 01:22 AM

As I previously mentioned, Yog-Sothoth, is coterminous with all space and is omniscient. For this reason, he would promptly kill anyone who tried summoning Pazuzu because he knows exactly what that leads to. Furthermore, the DM reserves the right to eject any player who flagrantly tramples over the spirit of sportsmanship and ruins the game for everyone.

But you're not understanding that while Yog-Sothoth knows if anyone is going to summon Pazuzu in Time, he does not know what will happen if he unmakes Asmodeus without actually performing that act, because all of time changes instantly from his perspective.

If unmaking Asmodeus makes Pun-pun summon Pazuzu, then in the same instant that Pun-pun summons Pazuzu, Pun-pun has already been existant forever and has always been able to challenge Yog-Sothoth on equal terms (or better...for Pun-pun).

Seriously, you think I have a three-dimensional view of time?

Seriously, stop using that word. That's not what it means. While that's often what the characters portrayed in these fights devolve into as a result of fanboys, the term doesn't actually mean what you think it does. And specifically, I'm going with established canon.

A God Sue "...exists purely to show up how pathetically weak the rest of the world is, and how badly they need his or her help. If there's anybody else that is even capable of standing up for themselves, they may lose their abilities for some reason when the character comes into the equation, or become incompetent boobs, or both."

Sounds like what's happening here to me...anyway, you're right in that Yog-Sothoth has no interest in helping the rest of the world, but he certainly exists in the Mythos to show off how pathetically weak the rest of the world (i.e. reality) is. So the term is not strictly accurate but it is still accurate enough for most conversational purposes.

The genre is horror, and the moral of the story is "Game over. Forever."

Yog-Sothoth wouldn't find it horrible to run into a being that could actually challenge him and issue a "game over, forever" to him? Even cosmic horrors must have something they're afraid of...

Also applying a genre to a VS fight isn't really kosher. Might as well bring in Pun-pun's genre of Action/Adventure, which says "PCs can overcome all challenges given sufficient time and resources."

Pun-Pun is never a viable build outside of a lulz campaign, which wouldn't have Mythos characters portrayed as anything more than adorable chibis.

So? That is not the issue here.

Shadow Lord

2011-07-31, 02:20 AM

Can I kindly ask both of you to STOP FREAKING DISCUSSING PUN PUN?

kabreras

2011-07-31, 02:29 AM

If unmaking Asmodeus makes Pun-pun summon Pazuzu, then in the same instant that Pun-pun summons Pazuzu, Pun-pun has already been existant forever and has always been able to challenge Yog-Sothoth on equal terms (or better...for Pun-pun).

Why do you even goes on the thinking that he would unmake Asmodeus ?
Asmodeus is not just a name, he is a concept so not alowing someone/thing to be Asmodeus will more than likelly give us an other Asmodeus because there is still need for a big bad evil king.

The fact is that Yog-Sothoth is not the kind of entitie that even want to go on a fight against someone and he would just manipulate enough the conditions so any fight like this would never happend and already did it anyway.

Pun-Pun idea is stupid anyway if anyone would even have thinked about doing what is nessesary for Pun-Pun to exist, good and evils pantheons would have been suddenly all friends and obliterated the poor Kobold that would have this idea before he can do anything, so Pun-Pun is just théorically possible but he canot exist.

Shadow Lord

2011-07-31, 02:31 AM

Evidence supporting your first two points, sir?

Coidzor

2011-07-31, 02:37 AM

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-31, 02:40 AM

Can I kindly ask both of you to STOP FREAKING DISCUSSING PUN PUN?

...why?

Asmodeus loses against Yog-Sothoth because Yog-Sothoth is an overdeity; it's that simple, or at least it is to me.

Only overdeities can fight overdeities, and of all overdeities the one that we have most knowledge of is Pun-pun.

Why do you even goes on the thinking that he would unmake Asmodeus ?
Asmodeus is not just a name, he is a concept so not alowing someone/thing to be Asmodeus will more than likelly give us an other Asmodeus because there is still need for a big bad evil king.

...why? There could just as easily be an Evil Council. I've always loved the idea of Evil being innately democractic.

The fact is that Yog-Sothoth is not the kind of entitie that even want to go on a fight against someone and he would just manipulate enough the conditions so any fight like this would never happend and already did it anyway.

You're still thinking linearly; and remember that Yog-Sothoth doesn't normally fight because nothing in the Mythos can challenge Yog-Sothoth.

But Pun-pun can.

Pun-Pun idea is stupid anyway if anyone would even have thinked about doing what is nessesary for Pun-Pun to exist, good and evils pantheons would have been suddenly all friends and obliterated the poor Kobold that would have this idea before he can do anything, so Pun-Pun is just théorically possible but he canot exist.

Not necessarily. The Plane of Shadow allows for the idea of multiple realities...all it takes is one reality where one kobold gets Maniplate Form for Pun-pun to exist, potentially across all realities.

Coidzor

2011-07-31, 02:41 AM

Not necessarily. The Plane of Shadow allows for the idea of multiple realities...all it takes is one reality where one kobold gets Maniplate Form for Pun-pun to exist.

And the headaches of multiple realities and multiple planes just keep piling up... :smallsigh:

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-31, 02:44 AM

And the headaches of multiple realities and multiple planes just keep piling up... :smallsigh:

I did acknowledge awhile back that this VS is utterly impossible...but as long as people keep posting so will I. I'm weak like that.

For the record, though, I've never liked the cosmic horror, "humans-are-insignificant-gnats" nature of the Mythos because, well...if we're so insignificant than how come the Mythos keeps showing up on Earth?

kabreras

2011-07-31, 02:50 AM

Not necessarily. The Plane of Shadow allows for the idea of multiple realities...all it takes is one reality where one kobold gets Maniplate Form for Pun-pun to exist, potentially across all realities.

But for it to happend i would need that reality to be godless and that not any god can travel or scry on what happend in this reality. Cause any hole in that would make it not possible because all others deities would not allow it to happend.

And if it even happend in that closed reality Pun-Pun wouldnt be able to get out of it cause it wouldnt be connected to anything... Pun-Pun, overdeity, but not able to do **** in fact. :smallbiggrin:

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-31, 02:54 AM

But for it to happend i would need that reality to be godless and that not any god can travel or scry on what happend in this reality. Cause any hole in that would make it not possible because all others deities would not allow it to happend.

Acutally, it doesn't need to be godless. It could have stupid gods, or gods that don't care too much whether or not Pun-pun ascends; an Eberron setup, for example. Heck, it could be a reality where the gods want Pun-pun to ascend as part of some kind of ascendancy belief system.

And if it even happend in that closed reality Pun-Pun wouldnt be able to get out of it cause it wouldnt be connected to anything... Pun-Pun, overdeity, but not able to do **** in fact. :smallbiggrin:

Go Anywhere (Ex): Pun-pun can travel to any reality as a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Though note that all alternate realities are connected to others via the Plane of Shadow, so Pun-pun doesn't need the above; he can just use any spell that lets him into the Plane of Shadow.

Coidzor

2011-07-31, 02:56 AM

But for it to happend i would need that reality to be godless and that not any god can travel or scry on what happend in this reality. Cause any hole in that would make it not possible because all others deities would not allow it to happend.

And if it even happend in that closed reality Pun-Pun wouldnt be able to get out of it cause it wouldnt be connected to anything... Pun-Pun, overdeity, but not able to do **** in fact. :smallbiggrin:

While it's one of the worse fleshed out areas of D&D, I do recall some rules actually being written on the subject of deity fore-knowledge of things that they aren't actively observing or being told about through proxy observers. Which would not require a godless plane or universe or for said plane or universe to not be connected to the plane of shadow.

So what are you even arguing at this point?

kabreras

2011-07-31, 05:35 AM

While it's one of the worse fleshed out areas of D&D, I do recall some rules actually being written on the subject of deity fore-knowledge of things that they aren't actively observing or being told about through proxy observers. Which would not require a godless plane or universe or for said plane or universe to not be connected to the plane of shadow.

So what are you even arguing at this point?

That this is anyway a good reason why we should all contribute to make a kobold genocide !

gkathellar

2011-07-31, 08:41 AM

The principle issue with where this discussion has gone is that Pun-Pun is a rules exploit, an exercise in theoretical optimization, and above all else, a joke. Pun-Pun has no fluff, no substance and no bearing outside of the tiny loophole that allows it to exist — its sole purpose is as a demonstration of 3.5's ability to be broken.

So why exactly is this being brought into a discussion about the fluff of Asmodeus and the fluff of a Mythos character? Bringing a rules exploit up in a fluff discussion is ridiculous. It works out to something roughly equivalent to say "well yeah, sure, Cloud could beat up Harry Potter or whatever, but not Harry from that one piece of fanfiction—"

No, shut up, that's not the question.

The closest we've come to an answer is that if Asmodeus is a cosmic touchstone and an extension of the Serpent, then Yog-Sothoth and the Serpent would probably take one look at each other and go get a beer.

Gensh

2011-07-31, 10:33 AM

Right, but that's the genre that Yog-Sothoth is from, and inherently grants him the advantage. Meanwhile, Asmodeus is from a fantasy world in which even the worst eldritch horrors can be beaten. You can't just declare that this is taking place in the genre that immediately lends the advantage to Yoggy, nor can I declare that we're only discussing this in the realm of fantasy, in which literal personifications of evil have the advantage over material beings. This is what makes the comparison beyond simple stats untenable, as for each entity to exist in the same multiverse would be to invalidate both.

The declaration of Yog-Sothoth's genre was simply to state what sort of role he typically fills. He is purely a plot device, and one that cannot be beaten unless otherwise allowed at that; by comparison, Pun-Pun is a walking bit of rules abuse and Asmodeus may or may not be a massive primordial being. Nevertheless, both of those are less than a plot device. Of course, were genres to be invoked for the purpose of genre, I'd have to point out that Lovecraftian horror does in fact have a place in D&D, and the Far Realm is equally insurmountable.

But you're not understanding that while Yog-Sothoth knows if anyone is going to summon Pazuzu in Time, he does not know what will happen if he unmakes Asmodeus without actually performing that act, because all of time changes instantly from his perspective.

No it doesn't; I just explained this with the card metaphor. Humans can see in three dimensions and have memory of previous locations in the fourth dimension. Being coterminous with all space and omniscient, Yog-Sothoth would see all of time at once, yes, but he'd also see all timelines at once on all planes at once.

If unmaking Asmodeus makes Pun-pun summon Pazuzu, then in the same instant that Pun-pun summons Pazuzu, Pun-pun has already been existant forever and has always been able to challenge Yog-Sothoth on equal terms (or better...for Pun-pun).

Seriously, you think I have a three-dimensional view of time?

This is...not remotely related, and while technically possible due to the butterfly effect, is still subject to direct intervention.

A God Sue "...exists purely to show up how pathetically weak the rest of the world is, and how badly they need his or her help. If there's anybody else that is even capable of standing up for themselves, they may lose their abilities for some reason when the character comes into the equation, or become incompetent boobs, or both."

Sounds like what's happening here to me...anyway, you're right in that Yog-Sothoth has no interest in helping the rest of the world, but he certainly exists in the Mythos to show off how pathetically weak the rest of the world (i.e. reality) is. So the term is not strictly accurate but it is still accurate enough for most conversational purposes.

For a Sue character to exist, they must have something to surmount. Is Sauron a Sue, simply because he starts the series with magic powers that cannot be defeated in the current age and huge armies? No, because if he didn't, there wouldn't be a story. The type of power described here is not just fanwank but rather the very specific power Yog-Sothoth has in canon for the purpose of providing an adversary that cannot be beaten just by getting a bigger boat, filling a very important role in the stories.

Yog-Sothoth wouldn't find it horrible to run into a being that could actually challenge him and issue a "game over, forever" to him? Even cosmic horrors must have something they're afraid of...

Yes, and while Nyarlathotep knows what that is, it's not anything in our part of the universe.

Also applying a genre to a VS fight isn't really kosher. Might as well bring in Pun-pun's genre of Action/Adventure, which says "PCs can overcome all challenges given sufficient time and resources."

I already addressed this above, but allow me to repeat: the declaration of Yog-Sothoth's genre was for the convenience of those who don't know what he is. He is a plot device from a series where the plot devices always win. D&D explicitly allows this via the Far Realm.

And, as you said, DMs are irrelevant, so why are you bringing them back up?

Because he brought up Pun-Pun in a discussion about canon NPCs.

So why are you ascribing Pun-Pun to little girls again?

Nonono, chibi refers to the prevalent super-deformed art style. You're thinking of loli.

[QUOTE=Rogue Shadows;11534070]For the record, though, I've never liked the cosmic horror, "humans-are-insignificant-gnats" nature of the Mythos because, well...if we're so insignificant than how come the Mythos keeps showing up on Earth?

Actually, they're appearing everywhere there's intelligent life in the universe. It's just that we haven't met any alien species who aren't allied to them yet, so there aren't any viewpoints we could have other than human. Furthermore, Nyarlathotep is specified to only possess forms capable of inspiring absolute terror. The fact that he can change into a human means that there's a species out there we can scare to death. Or maybe we just really hate ourselves.

The closest we've come to an answer is that if Asmodeus is a cosmic touchstone and an extension of the Serpent, then Yog-Sothoth and the Serpent would probably take one look at each other and go get a beer.

This, basically. As was mentioned fairly early on, the devil role is actually filled by Nyarlathotep in the Mythos, so any universe wherein both are present, Asmo and Narly are likely to be the same guy. There'd be no point to the fight because they'd be on the same side.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-31, 11:33 AM

No it doesn't; I just explained this with the card metaphor. Humans can see in three dimensions and have memory of previous locations in the fourth dimension. Being coterminous with all space and omniscient, Yog-Sothoth would see all of time at once, yes, but he'd also see all timelines at once on all planes at once.

What card metaphor? I don't remember a card metaphor. In any event what you're suggesting does not jive with the idea of "coternimus with all of time."

Alternate timelines don't exist until they're created. Azathoth can only be coternimus with an alternate timeline if one comes about; otherwise they're just possibilities. Again, he can guess at what this or that change might create.

This is...not remotely related, and while technically possible due to the butterfly effect, is still subject to direct intervention.

No, it's not. Like I said, there are actual benefits to living in linear time rather than nonlinear time, the most noteable being that though we cannot directly percieve the future, we can see it coming and take steps to prevent or change it. Whether or not we succeed is another issue entirely, we won't go into that.

Living "outside" time and being able to percieve the whole thing at once gives you the advantage of being functionally omniscient, but it also means that any change you make changes the entirety of time at once, meaning that while you may be able to guess at what time will look like after you've changed it, you really don't have any idea than a linear being knows what the future will look like because the changed time doesn't exist until the change is made.

For a Sue character to exist, they must have something to surmount.

In God Sue's case, that "something" is "everything else." Note I did stop using Mary Sue, which is incorrect; but the provided definition of God Sue is exactly what you are describing Yog-Sothoth as.

"Azure" and "blue" are synonymous, you know.

Is Sauron a Sue, simply because he starts the series with magic powers that cannot be defeated in the current age and huge armies? No, because if he didn't, there wouldn't be a story. The type of power described here is not just fanwank but rather the very specific power Yog-Sothoth has in canon for the purpose of providing an adversary that cannot be beaten just by getting a bigger boat, filling a very important role in the stories.

But we're not in the stories; we're in VS. Also Sauron is not a God Sue because he does not have insurmountable powers (he's actually quite limited in what he can do), is established right in the first book that there are beings that can just ignore his power entirely (freaking Tom Bombadil...God I hate him) and characters do not generally lose their abilities or powers as a plot device just to make him seem more badass.

Yes, and while Nyarlathotep knows what that is, it's not anything in our part of the universe.

So Overdeity Pun-pun, then.

I already addressed this above, but allow me to repeat: the declaration of Yog-Sothoth's genre was for the convenience of those who don't know what he is. He is a plot device from a series where the plot devices always win. D&D explicitly allows this via the Far Realm.

...which means that Pun-pun is, in fact, capable of existing in a multiverse that allows Yog-Sothoth to exist. El Far Realm is just one more plane...

...incidentally the reason why I brought up Pun-pun in the first place is because he is not simply a walking math equation; Pun-pun is a character in his own right, albeita somewhat poorly defined one in terms of personality other than the fact that he's CE if he went the Pazuzu route.

I only listed him as an option because I was listing out overdeities that I actually know of - Her Serenity, Ao, the Highgod from Dragonlance (I think, I'm not very familiar with the setting), and Pun-pun, because let's be honest with ourselves, Pun-pun is an overdeity.

Coidzor

2011-07-31, 12:06 PM

Nonono, chibi refers to the prevalent super-deformed art style. You're thinking of loli.

:smallconfused: No, loli is something that perverted men and women like, not something for little girls.

Gensh

2011-07-31, 12:16 PM

What card metaphor? I don't remember a card metaphor. In any event what you're suggesting does not jive with the idea of "coternimus with all of time."

Remember when I half-sarcastically asked if you were actually reading my posts? Yeah, I'm just not going to respond to you at all anymore. You've continuously ignored reasonable points from not just myself but others as well, and you obviously have no idea what you're talking about inasfar as higher dimensional theory goes.

:smallconfused: No, loli is something that perverted men and women like, not something for little girls.

Oh, that's what you meant. Chibi certainly isn't only for little girls. While adorable, it's an art style and nothing more; effectively any content could be rendered with chibis. More specifically, I was referring to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOHJUrcVdJk) with my comment.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-31, 12:27 PM

Remember when I half-sarcastically asked if you were actually reading my posts? Yeah, I'm just not going to respond to you at all anymore. You've continuously ignored reasonable points from not just myself but others as well, and you obviously have no idea what you're talking about inasfar as higher dimensional theory goes.

I suppose it's impossible that I just don't remember reading any card metaphor? Believe it or not I don't actually commit most of what I read on the Internet to memory.

I do remember a lot of talk about canvasas and paint...

Also of the two of us, I'm the only one talking about higher dimensional theroy; you've mostly just been going Key and Gate and Key and Gate and Key, as well as a few comments about alternate timelines that really just do not jive with how timelines actually are believed to work. Besides which unless you've got a Ph. D in higher physics you'd like to whip out, I don't think calling me out on a lack of knowledge about how temporal physics work is really going to get you anywhere.

But just between you and me, I love time travel and time travel stories and alternate timeline stories and so forth and so on, so I actually have put a lot of thought into such things as being removed from time, backwards-time travel, forwards-time travel, Cause and effect, effect before cause, and so forth and so on. No degrees or anything, but I do like to think that at least for the purposes of an Internet message board discussion about fictional characters, I'm at least as well informed as any other schmuck.

But not on cards, apparently.

Which I still don't remember.

Was the card metaphor directly to me? I've largely only been reading the responces you've been making directly to me, I do admit to that. Unless it caught my eye.

In any event the principle problem between you and me seems to be that I do think that El Cosmic Horror is defeatable, if not by necessarily by human hands. Like I said, I never like the Mythos much.

EDIT
Oh, I remember it now!

Yog-Sothoth is coterminous with all space, of which time is a single dimension. Imagine a two-dimensional being, the King of Hearts. He's sitting on a table with the rest of his royal court. Suddenly, I place a glass on the table, and he's like "Whoa, what is this thing and where did it come from?" Obviously, you would know exactly what I did because you can see in three dimensions, while the King cannot. In this case, we (including Asmo and Pun-Pun) would be the playing cards. Anything we might do can be seen by Yog-Sothoth because he can see in higher dimensions.

Yeah I did read this, but then decided not to use it because I was already using the "motes of paint on a canvas" metaphor and didn't want to run the risk of having too many metaphors collide; also I find the idea of a canvas with Yog and Pun-pun and whoever as observers a cleaner metaphor that gets the same point across.

So it's not that I didn't read it, it's that I didn't commit it to memory because there was already a perfectly good metaphor doing the exact same job in the room.

I guess I'm sorry? But not really.

Morithias

2011-07-31, 10:25 PM

I'm just going to add more fuel to the fire to be a jerk.

What if Asmodeus used oh you know, his Empire? All of Baator? Took every single soul in the place, demoted every single devil, and basically absorbed the entire plane into hismelf.

What happens then? Would that give him enough power to do something?

DMfromTheAbyss

2011-07-31, 11:05 PM

Ok just have to put my two cents in.

Alright we have stats for two creatures in two RPG systems. They are different genres and are built to different styles of gaming.

So we go to the fluff, which has both as undefeatable in their respective cosmologies.

So.. that leaves us with either a stalemate or a fight on some sort of neutral plane/ground/reality.

So ignoring their respective fluffs we have a gigantic ball of stats made not to be beatable, and a level 20 caster who is known for rules lawyerage to a massive degree.

This would seem to be a perfect spell min-maxing challenge for the playground. So just looking at the math could the stack of devilish stats with infernally used spell loopholes manage to defeat his opponent. I think he has good odds myself.

If you ignore the stats and go for "fluff" it's either a null or a popularity contest.

--------------------
As an aside the over god from Kryn is Lord Chaos, who is roughly on level with AO for his whole easily banishing a pantheon becouse he was in a bad mood. Incidentally his fluff makes him remarkably similar to another giant fiery uncaring ball of insanity...

Also accourding to some of the fluff Asmodeous IS the one keeping the far-realms in check, so the whole Farrealms=unbeatable is somewhat mitigated by any actually still sane beings existing as non-insanity inducing shellfish.(aka all/most campaign worlds)

Coidzor

2011-08-01, 01:48 AM

As an aside the over god from Kryn is Lord Chaos, who is roughly on level with AO for his whole easily banishing a pantheon becouse he was in a bad mood. Incidentally his fluff makes him remarkably similar to another giant fiery uncaring ball of insanity...

Well, yes, the overdeities are the "author-avatars" for the game designers... or possibly corporate, I forget which... after all, so it stands to reason that their fluff would be similar.

Alleran

2011-08-01, 03:41 AM

Well, yes, the overdeities are the "author-avatars" for the game designers... or possibly corporate, I forget which... after all, so it stands to reason that their fluff would be similar.
Isn't Krynn's "Lord Chaos" a DvR 20 god, while the actual overdeity is "The High One" or something to that effect?

FimbulLord

2016-10-10, 03:30 PM

Recently, I was having an interesting debate over who would win in a fight: Asmodeus (from the Fiendish Codex or Book of Vile Darkness) or Yog-Sothoth (from the d20 Call of Cthulhu rulebook) one on one (or at least to start). Unfortunately we couldn't come to an argeement about who would win. However, I was left wondering if anyone else might have an opinion on who would win and why.

And if you don't have access to the books where they're stated out the basic issue comes down to:

Yog Sothoth can teleport without error anywhere in time or space as a move action and has a supernatural one-mile-ranged touch attack that kills a target unless they make a DC 79 fort save (Asmodeus has a touch AC of 19 and a fort save of +27).

Asmodeus casts like a 20th level cleric and has a magic item that lets him create (at will as a swift action) a 5' radius spherical wall of force surrounded by a 50' antimagicfield (that does not include the center of the sphere). With those resources there might be something Asmodeus can do to win (although Yog Sothoth will save against any spell he can cast).

So, who do you think wins?

Okay...well, I am surprised this came up.
Yog-Sothoth is an Outer God, grandson of the creater of all things (according to the Mythos) Azagtoth who is the arbiter of all things nuclear and star stuffy.
Yog-Sothoth is the binder of the universe, gate and key, time and space itself.
Asmodeus is very powerful...but Yog-Sothoth controls space/time and gates, it is the manifestation of time/space itself. It also controls the most powerful force in the universe....gravity.
Let's see Asmodeus survive neutron proliferation/bombardment and the inescapable annihilation of being smashed into a black hole. It could even plane shift Asmodeus into one or beside a magnetar.
The Outer Gods are not even comparable to the D and D gods. The are too far beyond scope.
Heck, Cthulhu is just an Ancient One, and he is a threat to most of the D and D gods.

Well, that's my 2 cents, anyway.

Flickerdart

2016-10-10, 03:45 PM

Here's a thought.

The Outer Gods are not people, and don't think like people. They give humans less of a thought than you give the microbes you tread upon when you walk. At this scale, Asmodeus might be a fly, and if a fly bothers you, you swat the fly.

However, the humanity-microbes soon give rise to a new Asmodeus, because having a big Evil is a thing that happens. Maybe it's the same Asmodeus regenerated, or someone with a different name and face, but you still get another one. Unless Yog-Sothoth wipes out all intelligent life, there will always be an Asmodeus to challenge him. And while he certainly could manage, intelligent life is so far beneath him that it might be easier to just recursively swat flies for nested eternities than to figure out what a Prime Material Plane even is.

So the verdict is: a tie.

Name1

2016-10-10, 03:47 PM

Heck, Cthulhu is just an Ancient One, and he is a threat to most of the D and D gods.

Uhh... Ok. Just... Don't compare Paizo's Cthulhu to a D&D god. That way lies sadness.

Yael

2016-10-10, 03:48 PM

Okay...well, I am surprised this came up.
Yog-Sothoth is an Outer God, grandson of the creater of all things (according to the Mythos) Azagtoth who is the arbiter of all things nuclear and star stuffy.
Yog-Sothoth is the binder of the universe, gate and key, time and space itself.
Asmodeus is very powerful...but Yog-Sothoth controls space/time and gates, it is the manifestation of time/space itself. It also controls the most powerful force in the universe....gravity.
Let's see Asmodeus survive neutron proliferation/bombardment and the inescapable annihilation of being smashed into a black hole. It could even plane shift Asmodeus into one or beside a magnetar.
The Outer Gods are not even comparable to the D and D gods. The are too far beyond scope.
Heck, Cthulhu is just an Ancient One, and he is a threat to most of the D and D gods.

Well, that's my 2 cents, anyway.

Those 2 cents should be more valuable, considering the 5 year difference between posts :smallbiggrin:

Also, the Time Travel spell from the Call of Cthulhu d20 is broken.

Also, Yogg-Sothoth beats Asmodeus.

Schattenbach

2016-10-10, 04:45 PM

Asmodeus is part of Yog-Sothoth... as Yog-Sothoth is all that is and ever will be according to its fluff as according to that, Yog-Sothoth isn't just "Space-Time" but "All of Existence" (which, when using its fluff as "Supreme Archetype" obviously includes all concepts ... which also includes the concept of "evil" and "Asmodeus") and actually exists outside of space-time if I remember right ... so it's basically Yog-Sothoth fighting against a (tiny) part of itself (as pretty much all of existence, including all Outer Gods expect Azathoth, can be considered some aspect of Yog-Sothoth).

Plenty outer gods are likely hyperversal (or rather ... beyond archtypical infinity to begin with, aren't they?) to begin with (or, in some cases, outright beyond space-time and purely on the metaphysical level, unrestricted by pretty much all of space-time, like Yog-Sothoth), not merely multiversal (like Asmodeus), and aren't particulary restrained by logic, so bringing up paradoxes is pretty much pointless when it comes to this kind of class.

Edit: Just read the post before that ... Didn't notice that this thread is already several years old ...

Calthropstu

2016-10-11, 02:13 AM

Recently, I was having an interesting debate over who would win in a fight: Asmodeus (from the Fiendish Codex or Book of Vile Darkness) or Yog-Sothoth (from the d20 Call of Cthulhu rulebook) one on one (or at least to start). Unfortunately we couldn't come to an argeement about who would win. However, I was left wondering if anyone else might have an opinion on who would win and why.

And if you don't have access to the books where they're stated out the basic issue comes down to:

Yog Sothoth can teleport without error anywhere in time or space as a move action and has a supernatural one-mile-ranged touch attack that kills a target unless they make a DC 79 fort save (Asmodeus has a touch AC of 19 and a fort save of +27).

Asmodeus casts like a 20th level cleric and has a magic item that lets him create (at will as a swift action) a 5' radius spherical wall of force surrounded by a 50' antimagicfield (that does not include the center of the sphere). With those resources there might be something Asmodeus can do to win (although Yog Sothoth will save against any spell he can cast).

So, who do you think wins?
When thinking about who will win in major high powered battles, there are 3 penultimate abilities that just win.

You stated that Yog Sothoth has one of these abilities.

The three abilities are:

1: the ability to travel through time. It doesn't matter what ability is used after that, it is after the fact. You have lost. You cease to exist as your opponent rips you out of time itself.

2: The ability to stop time without restriction. Once the ability is used , you have lost. There is no more actions. Your opponent simply takes his time killing you after that because he literally has all the time in the world to do so.

3: The third is a bit more complex. The exact wording is: The ability to teleport anything from anywhere to anywhere in whole, in part or in any quantity regardless of its distance relative to you, and regardless of the target location's distance relative to you. With this, you can teleport a planet into the sun. You can teleport everything in the universe simultaneously into a single solid point destroying everything. There's no acting after this ability has been activated, because you've been destroyed.

So, Yog Sothoth has the first of those 3 abilities which means he teleports through time on round 1. If Asmodeous does not slay him INSTANTLY before Yog Sothoth gets to go, Asmodeous loses automatically.

It is important to note that there can never be an epic battle between these powers, as once any of them are activated, the battle is over. So whoever goes first wins.