Complete class list in tiers?

[Tvtyrant]

I'm trying to find a complete list of all classes and their tiers under Jaronks system. My search fu was weak, so if one exists please point it out to me.

[kardar233]

Bam! (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293)

[Private-Prinny]

Bam! (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293)

This is missing Incarnate, Soulborn, Totemist, Ardent, Divine Mind, Lurk, Dragonfire Adept, Dragon Shaman, Spirit Shaman, Shugenja, Wu Jen, and probably a few more that aren't coming to mind immediately.

[Tvtyrant]

Bam! (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293)

That was the one I found, but its missing a ton of classes. And I am really bad at deciding on class tiers.

Swordsaged!

[Big Fau]

A somewhat more complete one. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714.0)

[kardar233]

Hmmm. Didn't know it had been updated. Thanks. Bookmarking now.

[Psyren]

What's the problem if it's not complete? You have all the info you need to classify any class you could want; that's the beauty of it. Even the Giant himself endorsed the system.

[shadow_archmagi]

What's the problem if it's not complete? You have all the info you need to classify any class you could want; that's the beauty of it. Even the Giant himself endorsed the system.

Well, unless you're not very familiar with the class, or don't have enough system mastery and the knack for minmaxing to recognize which class features have more or less potential. Just the other day I had a friend who planned on moving out of Duskblade and into Arcane Archer without noticing that Arcane Archer did absolutely nothing for his character.

[Psyren]

Well, unless you're not very familiar with the class, or don't have enough system mastery and the knack for minmaxing to recognize which class features have more or less potential. Just the other day I had a friend who planned on moving out of Duskblade and into Arcane Archer without noticing that Arcane Archer did absolutely nothing for his character.

That's what forums are for :smallsmile:

I barely know a thing about the Marshal for instance, but I'm sure someone here knows what tier it is.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm working on a rather strange campaign, and am using it as an excuse to get everyone into the same tier. The last one I ran had an un-op fighter, a Druid with Augment Summoning whose summons were better then said fighter, a Rogue that died to a Kobold (at level 5) and a Sorc that used all Beguiler type spells. The oddity of the campaign essentially precludes steriotypical classes, so I thought it made a good chance for all Tier 3s.

However, what a Tier 3 entails seems beyond my judgement. I would put DFA and Warlock in it, but they are Tier 4, and Totemist (also listed Tier 4) while I would put Shadowcaster as Tier 4, and maybe Wildshape Ranger if it doesn't multiclass into something with better wildshape. So my judgement of classes is apparently off, and I don't know all of the classes that well.

[Lans]

I would also put Totemist at tier 3 and Shadowcaster at tier 4.

I would also put Truenamer and Divinemind at tier 5

Incarnate is iffy at 3

Edit-I kind of think Shadowcaster starts at 5 and slides to tier 3 as it levels up and gains options

[Big Fau]

Shadowcaster is, as you can expect, a sliding scale on the Tiers: Tier 5 before 7th level, Tier 3 when they get to the mid-levels.

The Divine Mind is Tier 6 because it, like the Erudite, needs an ACF to jump it up a bit more. The Divine Mind in CP is nigh useless due to the ML problems, the lack of solid abilities (those auras are not that useful), and low BAB. It actually plays out worse than a Paladin at the mid-levels (I speak from experience), never mind the flavor issues. Basically, every class feature it has should have been a part of the Ardent from the beginning, and they made a huge mistake when they didn't do that.

Truenamer is placed in Tier 6 because it's advertised ability (Truespeak) is useless without a high degree of system mastery and copious amounts of optimization. A novice player would never be able to make those checks, and even most experienced players would do everything in their power to avoid the class.

The fact that it has UMD does not redeem the class, because UMD isn't one of the advertised abilities (unlike the Rogue, whose advertised abilities are Skills, Trapfinding, and Backstabbing).

As for the Incarnate and Totemist, there aren't that many people familiar with them. I have played both, but I don't have even half of the understanding of Meldshaping that Person_Man and Sinfire do, so I can't really vouch for either. Plz does mention in that link that the Totemist is king of the hill in Tier 4, then states that it doesn't take much to put it into Tier 3.

But, again, very few new players will be able to do that. Tier 3 classes have a low Tier Range, so they are hard to screw up, or are jacks of all trades and have a medium Tier Range.

[Tvtyrant]

Which just proves my point; I can't easily see Tier boundaries, which is why I was hoping for a complete list (of tier 3s anyways). For instance, would the Pathfinder Summoner fit into Tier 3? I would put it there because it can buff, summon, and melee fight very well. On the other hand, it gets Gate and some other broken spells, so it could be a Tier 2 at high levels.

[Big Fau]

Which just proves my point; I can't easily see Tier boundaries, which is why I was hoping for a complete list (of tier 3s anyways). For instance, would the Pathfinder Summoner fit into Tier 3? I would put it there because it can buff, summon, and melee fight very well. On the other hand, it gets Gate and some other broken spells, so it could be a Tier 2 at high levels.

Given my stance on PF, I really do not have any right to judge that class' Tier. But any summoning-based class has a massive advantage in the Action Economy, as the Binder demonstrated with that one Vestige. I'd say Tier 2 is a safe bet as a result (especially as it has Planar Binding, which is a known game-breaker).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Honestly, don't worry too much about sticking to just one tier. JaronK said himself in the original guide that given an arm's reach of two tiers over would be fine without too many problems. Thus, even if a wizard had his giant shtick of summoning, debuffing, or whatever else he focused on, he would still "play nice" with Crusaders and Warblades.

It's a rough guide, not a hard and fast rule. For your purposes, I'd wing it and shoot to have everything from Tiers 2-4. If your group doesn't have that great of system mastery, either send them here or help them accomplish what they want to with a character. Other than that, not sure what to say to help you and your group.

[Lans]

The Divine Mind is Tier 6 because it, like the Erudite, needs an ACF to jump it up a bit more. The Divine Mind in CP is nigh useless due to the ML problems, the lack of solid abilities (those auras are not that useful), and low BAB. It actually plays out worse than a Paladin at the mid-levels (I speak from experience), never mind the flavor issues. Basically, every class feature it has should have been a part of the Ardent from the beginning, and they made a huge mistake when they didn't do that.

If you compare it to the warrior or samurai it comes out ahead, even before looking at its powers. It might still be Tier 6, but its going to be very high tier 6. I put it in the very low tier 5, Tomato Tomato doesn't work as good with text.



Truenamer is placed in Tier 6 because it's advertised ability (Truespeak) is useless without a high degree of system mastery and copious amounts of optimization. A novice player would never be able to make those checks, and even most experienced players would do everything in their power to avoid the class.

The fact that it has UMD does not redeem the class, because UMD isn't one of the advertised abilities (unlike the Rogue, whose advertised abilities are Skills, Trapfinding, and Backstabbing).

At low levels the DC is reasonable, especially if the player is knowlegable to pick up the truespeak amulet at level 3 or 4. At 8 it gets the last lexicon group which doesn't have borked DCs, and which I think can carry enough weight to be tier 5 easily. With the 1st group being regulated to out of combat use, and the second to fixing the fighters sword.


As for the Incarnate and Totemist, there aren't that many people familiar with them. I have played both, but I don't have even half of the understanding of Meldshaping that Person_Man and Sinfire do, so I can't really vouch for either. Plz does mention in that link that the Totemist is king of the hill in Tier 4, then states that it doesn't take much to put it into Tier 3.

I have them reversed with the incarnate being the king of tier 4 and totemist being tier 3.

[stainboy]

It's a rough guide, not a hard and fast rule. For your purposes, I'd wing it and shoot to have everything from Tiers 2-4. If your group doesn't have that great of system mastery, either send them here or help them accomplish what they want to with a character. Other than that, not sure what to say to help you and your group.

Yeah, this. Tiers 2-4 work pretty well together, assuming you can trust the T2s not to deliberately choose spells that break your game and you steer toward challenges where the T4s shine. T1 and T5 are the problems: T1s are hard to challenge (you can *kill* them, but it's hard to put them in real danger and still give them a chance to react), and T5s are just numerically underpowered.

Even if you do stick to T2-4, some of the T1 and T5 classes work better than others. For example, it's easy to play an artificer into a midtier group without feeling like you're holding back, but an erudite almost always intends to play at T1 and a druid barely has a choice.

[Psyren]

I dislike Divine Minds too but T6 is a bit harsh, particularly if you use Mind's Eye to give them Ectopic Ally, a modified Hidden Talent and Turn Undead.

[Silva Stormrage]

I dislike Divine Minds too but T6 is a bit harsh, particularly if you use Mind's Eye to give them Ectopic Ally, a modified Hidden Talent and Turn Undead.

Well with Mind's Eye they are ranked tier 5. Still its a bit harsh.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Big Fau gets it and/or understands when he doesn't.

Lans, I am taking into account several years of optimizer's wisdom before going through manually to see where it might be improved. You are more than welcome to post on JaronK's revised thread. He has admittedly more patience than I do. If you want my reasons, feel free to do a class feature-by-feature comparison or a level-by-level comparison. As that thread shows, I work better with larger amounts of information.

On Divine Mind, I agree that it is a bit harsh. Keep in mind DM is the king of T6 (Hey, it almost works) and is close to the top of T5 with web goodies (its pretty stomachable at first)

I'll state for the record that although I haven't had the chance to finish it, I am still maintaining that threa

[Taelas]

Truenamer is placed in Tier 6 because it's advertised ability (Truespeak) is useless without a high degree of system mastery and copious amounts of optimization. A novice player would never be able to make those checks, and even most experienced players would do everything in their power to avoid the class.

The fact that it has UMD does not redeem the class, because UMD isn't one of the advertised abilities (unlike the Rogue, whose advertised abilities are Skills, Trapfinding, and Backstabbing).

This is not quite right. What matters are the abilities the class has, not the abilities it has "advertised". Use Magic Device, however, is not a one-stop-shop for everything -- you still need the items you use with the skill.

The Truenamer, as played without system mastery, does not work, thus it does not have a tier at all. When played properly, it is probably tier 3.

[Tvtyrant]

This is not quite right. What matters are the abilities the class has, not the abilities it has "advertised". Use Magic Device, however, is not a one-stop-shop for everything -- you still need the items you use with the skill.

The Truenamer, as played without system mastery, does not work, thus it does not have a tier at all. When played properly, it is probably tier 3.
That is the point. Tiers are based on where the classes would be relative to each other given equal amounts of optimization. A Truenamer is inferior to a Psywarrior at equal op no matter where you are on the spectrum.

[Taelas]

No, you misunderstand. A Truenamer does not work without optimization. He is incapable of using his abilities. It is like playing a Wizard with 9 Int.

A Truenamer's abilities, when he is actually capable of using them, place the class around tier 3, and catapults into Tier 1 at level 17 when he gets free Gate.

[Tvtyrant]

No, you misunderstand. A Truenamer does not work without optimization. He is incapable of using his abilities. It is like playing a Wizard with 9 Int.

A Truenamer's abilities, when he is actually capable of using them, place the class around tier 3, and catapults into Tier 1 at level 17 when he gets free Gate.

I fully understand; the issue is that assuming an optimization level equal to a Truenamer "working" the Truenamer is still behind almost everyone else. A wizard with that much op fu is capable of ripping the game in half, chargers get thousands of damage a charge, and the Binder is summoning hundreds of monsters each morning and riding one so it can summon while moving.

[Taelas]

I fully understand; the issue is that assuming an optimization level equal to a Truenamer "working" the Truenamer is still behind almost everyone else. A wizard with that much op fu is capable of ripping the game in half, chargers get thousands of damage a charge, and the Binder is summoning hundreds of monsters each morning and riding one so it can summon while moving.

No, you still don't understand. Tiers measures potential power; optimization does not factor into it. The Truenamer's potential power is around tier 3.

[RaggedAngel]

I fully understand; the issue is that assuming an optimization level equal to a Truenamer "working" the Truenamer is still behind almost everyone else. A wizard with that much op fu is capable of ripping the game in half, chargers get thousands of damage a charge, and the Binder is summoning hundreds of monsters each morning and riding one so it can summon while moving.

As a steadfast player of Truenamers, I can both agree with this statement and still profess my love of Truenamers. Truenamers make you think; they make you work hard at being good. In a lot of ways they're similar to a sword and board fighter; a cool concept that is inferior mechanically. The difference is that the sword n' boarder swings a sword while carrying a board. The Truenamer tells the universe that it made an error in deeming you injured, and the universe quickly corrects its mistake.

[Tvtyrant]

No, you still don't understand. Tiers measures potential power; optimization does not factor into it. The Truenamer's potential power is around tier 3.

"this is a general averaging, assuming that everyone in the party is playing with roughly the same skill and optimization level. " From the original post. And to be perfectly blunt your repeated attempts to link disagreement with misunderstanding are insulting. I am perfectly capable of understanding what your saying and disagreeing with it.

[Taelas]

Yes, that quote supports what I am saying. Optimization does not factor into the calculations: it is assumed to be the same for all characters involved, so it can be disregarded.

I apologize if you feel insulted, but this is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of fact. Since you hold an opinion which is factually incorrect, I concluded that you misunderstood the situation.

[kardar233]

A Truenamer with the amount of optimization required to do their job would be in the same party (optimization-wise) as a paranoid Batman/God Wizard, a charging PsyWar who does 1920d8 damage/round, and a Diplomancing Bard.

Actually, if you took a Truenamer and applied the same amount of optimization that you would use for Truespeak checks onto Diplomacy, you would be able to Diplomance anything up to some minor deities.

[Rei_Jin]

*Sigh*

I just showed my DM the Tier system. And his response was that Wizards are the weakest link, and Monks are Tier 2.

I just... I don't....

*head kasplode*

[Taelas]

That is just not true. A Truenamer needs optimization, but it is not that much.

[Big Fau]

That is just not true. A Truenamer needs optimization, but it is not that much.

The hell are you talking about? It needs as much optimization as a Diplomancer combine. That isn't easy optimization, and if one feat gets banned the whole thing falls apart unless you rely on custom magic items.

[Divide by Zero]

*Sigh*

I just showed my DM the Tier system. And his response was that Wizards are the weakest link, and Monks are Tier 2.

I just... I don't....

*head kasplode*

Did he explain why he thought that? Because maybe then you could correct his misconceptions, both about those classes' power levels and the nature of the tier system in general.

[Rei_Jin]

Oh, he explained it, but his explanation was basically "When the wizard is out of spells, he can't do anything, and I've seen some very strong monks".

I don't think he properly read the information... cos it specifically mentions that you can change the power of a class by utilizing different levels of opt-fu. It's all about mechanical potential, not the top and bottom levels of what a class can do. Anyone could play a wizard as a blithering idiot, and you can optimise a monk if you try really, really hard. It ends up looking nothing like a monk though.

[Divide by Zero]

Oh, he explained it, but his explanation was basically "When the wizard is out of spells, he can't do anything, and I've seen some very strong monks".

I don't think he properly read the information... cos it specifically mentions that you can change the power of a class by utilizing different levels of opt-fu. It's all about mechanical potential, not the top and bottom levels of what a class can do. Anyone could play a wizard as a blithering idiot, and you can optimise a monk if you try really, really hard. It ends up looking nothing like a monk though.

Not to mention a "strong" wizard should never run out of spells unless he is put in a situation specifically to target that weakness (and if we're getting into that sort of thing, there's so many ways to neutralize a monk it isn't even funny).

[Draz74]

No, you misunderstand. A Truenamer does not work without optimization. He is incapable of using his abilities. It is like playing a Wizard with 9 Int.

Let's pick Level 5 as an example. Right in the middle of the range of levels people tend to actually play.

8 ranks + 4 INT + 3 Skill Focus = +15
DC to affect a CR 7 monster (which should be a boss-type monster at this level): 29
Chance of Utterances working: 35%

There. A very unoptimized Truenamer, a boss fight, and he's still better off than a Wizard with 9 INT. Don't get me wrong -- he only knows like 6 different Utterances, they suck even when they work, and then there's the Law of Sequence and Law of Resistance to worry about (blech). But the "Wizard with 9 INT" analogy is ... exaggerated, to say the least.

[stainboy]

Now throw in a save, and it drops to about 20%. The Truenamer has a small chance to affect the boss but it doesn't matter. Statistically he contributes more by shooting a crossbow.

At level 5 the wizard-with-9-int comparison works. The wizard can use his class abilities as long he gets Fox's Cunning up first. He's in basically the same position as a truenamer who needs a pile of item bonuses just to use Truespeak.

[rakkoon]

Very interesting list, look forward to reading more on it.

[Ernir]

A Truenamer's abilities, when he is actually capable of using them, place the class around tier 3, and catapults into Tier 1 at level 17 when he gets free Gate.
The "free" gate is at level 20 only.

And if I remember the truenaming chapter correctly, the checks being too difficult to make is the least of the problems the class has. A bigger one being that even when you succeed, the effects just aren't that powerful. If you can pull off something T3-worthy with those things, I'd be impressed.

[Taelas]

I have not actually played the Truenamer myself. I am following the lead of the one person (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114269) that I know who has, and whom I believe said it was roughly tier 3 (if a very limited one). I could be remembering incorrectly, of course.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I have not actually played the Truenamer myself. I am following the lead of the one person (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114269) that I know who has, and whom I believe said it was roughly tier 3 (if a very limited one). I could be remembering incorrectly, of course.

I'm glad that someone mentioned Zaq, because if no one had by this point I was about to.

[Draz74]

Now throw in a save, and it drops to about 20%. The Truenamer has a small chance to affect the boss but it doesn't matter. Statistically he contributes more by shooting a crossbow.

How many Utterances even allow a save? (Answer: not many.)
Why the heck would a Truenamer ever be foolish enough to try to use those Utterances?



I have not actually played the Truenamer myself. I am following the lead of the one person (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114269) that I know who has, and whom I believe said it was roughly tier 3 (if a very limited one). I could be remembering incorrectly, of course.

"Very limited" is mutually exclusive with the definition of Tier 3.

I could see an optimized truenamer fitting in fine with a party of Tier 4 characters with average optimization. That's how I see the Truenamer's potential. Note that the Truenamer in question would be focused on UMD rather than Utterances a lot of the time (and after Level 9, would mostly just use Quickened Utterances, and use his standard actions to attack or UMD). And as Zaq assures us, this character would still be a headache to play, even if it turned out OK power-wise.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

On discussion of the Truenamer: I know I've seen several people (maybe even Zaq) state that even if you spend resources on things like the Item Familiar and other stuff to almost always make your checks, you come away with something that feels like a Warlock but worse for one reason or another.

[Draz74]

On discussion of the Truenamer: I know I've seen several people (maybe even Zaq) state that even if you spend resources on things like the Item Familiar and other stuff to almost always make your checks, you come away with something that feels like a Warlock but worse for one reason or another.

Exactly. Like a Warlock, except Utterances have less "punch" than Invocations, and you have to worry about that darn Law of Sequence too. On the other hand, you can pump your Utterances out 2/round instead of 1/round (Quicken), you have slightly more skills, and you know slightly more Utterances than the Warlock knows Invocations.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

To be fair, a Warlock could bow a feat on Quicken SLA (Blah) to pop out several invocations three times a day.

[Lans]

A Truenamer with the amount of optimization required to do their job would be in the same party (optimization-wise) as a paranoid Batman/God Wizard, a charging PsyWar who does 1920d8 damage/round, and a Diplomancing Bard.
.

So skill focus, decent intelligence, and a magic item that he can make himself is optifu-quivelant to a batman wizard now? :smallconfused:

[JaronK]

Usually requires Item Familiar too. Meanwhile a Batman Wizard is just a well played Wizard... not much optimization actually needed there.

JaronK

[Lans]

Depends on level, and what "to do their job" means.

[JaronK]

Well, in the case of Truenamers, "Do their job" generally means just being able to hit party members and enemies with their utterances reliably through a reasonable number of encounters per day. And it does take a certain degree of system mastery, plus it has a reliance on various skill boosting resources being available. With that level of mastery and available options, you can easily have a batman Wizard.

JaronK

[Lans]

At lower levels the truespeak amulet is good enough, and at higher levels(12+) the perfected map should carry him through combat and the evolving mind gets regulated to saving cure light wounds charges.

[Taelas]

A Batman/God Wizard is just using spells intelligently. Not much optimization required -- you can be human Wizard 20 and be a Batman Wizard.

Diplomancer, though... I think you'll find a Diplomancer requires a great deal more optimization than the Truenamer.

[Lans]

You have no idea how many times I've seen a wizard with the spell selection of a crappy warmage

[JaronK]

And did those players have the system mastery to get their checks up as a Truenamer? I really doubt it.

JaronK

[kardar233]

A Batman/God Wizard is just using spells intelligently. Not much optimization required -- you can be human Wizard 20 and be a Batman Wizard.

Diplomancer, though... I think you'll find a Diplomancer requires a great deal more optimization than the Truenamer.

With skill ranks plus a UMD-d Guidance of the Avatar, you can make a Diplomacy check as a full-round action to make the final boss sit down and have a drink with you on a 2. Skill Focus, high Cha and a Diplomacy item will still make you pass that on average (on a 9), and even if you roll a 1 he'll give you the cold shoulder but stop attacking you.

I think that's just a bit more than an Utterance will be doing.

[Lans]

And did those players have the system mastery to get their checks up as a Truenamer? I really doubt it.

JaronK

You mean to put ranks into true speak, skill focus and the one "absolute
must-have" truenaming item?

Yes if using things like empower, spell focus and buying a head band of intelligence is any indicator.

[JaronK]

Generally, I find the Truenamer needs more than just that one item to keep using his utterances through the day. An Item Familiar's going to be critical. And you need to be VERY careful about what utterances you pick, because you don't get to swap them around.

JaronK

[Taelas]

It's not critical -- Zaq proved as much. Of course, he uses the Paragnostic Assembly instead, but that is far less cheesy than Item Familiars, so I prefer his approach.


With skill ranks plus a UMD-d Guidance of the Avatar, you can make a Diplomacy check as a full-round action to make the final boss sit down and have a drink with you on a 2. Skill Focus, high Cha and a Diplomacy item will still make you pass that on average (on a 9), and even if you roll a 1 he'll give you the cold shoulder but stop attacking you.

I think that's just a bit more than an Utterance will be doing.

Diplomacy doesn't work like that. You can talk someone into having a different attitude, certainly, but there are likely other factors than attitudes involved with a boss fight. You need to turn your enemies helpful, so they will take risks to assist you, before you have a Diplomancer -- and turning someone from Hostile to Helpful is a DC 50 check. Doing it as a full-round action imposes a -10 penalty to your check, making it effectively DC 60.

[Draz74]

You need to turn your enemies helpful, so they will take risks to assist you, before you have a Diplomancer -- and turning someone from Hostile to Helpful is a DC 50 check. Doing it as a full-round action imposes a -10 penalty to your check, making it effectively DC 60.

Naberius gets rid of the -10 penalty for rushed Diplomacy, and also lets you Take 10. So with one level of Binder, you just need a +40 skill modifier.

Binder 1: +12 Diplomacy
Bard 1 / Binder 1: +19 Diplomacy
Bard 1 / Binder 1 / Marshal 1: +27 Diplomacy
Bard 1 / Binder 1 / Marshal 1 / Dragonfire Adept 1: +34 Diplomacy
Bard 1 / Binder 1 / Marshal 1 / Dragonfire Adept 1 / Telepath 1: +38 Diplomacy

That's without any items, Traits, the Sacred Vow Exalted feat, or any other more-obscure Diplomacy optimization tricks that happen to be slipping my mind at the moment.

So yeah, Hostile to Helpful isn't particularly hard. It can be done reliably by Level 5, if not earlier. After that, you're more concerned about overcoming language barriers (Mindbender?) than you are about boosting your skill check higher.

[Lans]

Generally, I find the Truenamer needs more than just that one item to keep using his utterances through the day. An Item Familiar's going to be critical. And you need to be VERY careful about what utterances you pick, because you don't get to swap them around.

JaronK

Depends on level, at 10 and below the true speak amulet should be good enough.

[Taelas]

You are already using more optimization than is required for a Truenamer. Dipping four different classes will do that.

[Lans]

You are already using more optimization than is required for a Truenamer. Dipping four different classes will do that.

Grabbing/creating an item is more optimization that dipping 4 classes?

[Taelas]

Grabbing/creating an item is more optimization that dipping 4 classes?

I was responding to Draz74, sorry I didn't make that clear.

[kardar233]

And what are you going to do with a successful Utterance at level 5? Silence someone, give your friend a +10 on one damage roll? The build he outlined will make any enemy, even the final boss your friend, willing to take risks and fight to help you. Bit of a difference in scale there.

If you're a 5th-level Truenamer, you need to make DC 25 Truenaming checks to effect an enemy of your CR on average rolls. Any character with a Binder dip and the same amount of skill bonuses can make an enemy stop attacking and carry on casual conversation with you as a full-round action. That's about what I'm going for here. About the same level optimization that you'd need to play a Truenamer would get you someone that's quite effective at what they're doing, which is more than the Truenamer can say. Or Truespeak.

[Taelas]

:smallsigh:

You are completely missing the point. Yes, a Diplomancer is around a thousand times better than even the best played Truenamer. That is neither here nor there. I was responding to the idea that a Truenamer somehow required as much optimization as a Diplomancer, which is just not true.

[Lord.Sorasen]

However, what a Tier 3 entails seems beyond my judgement. I would put DFA and Warlock in it, but they are Tier 4, and Totemist (also listed Tier 4) while I would put Shadowcaster as Tier 4, and maybe Wildshape Ranger if it doesn't multiclass into something with better wildshape. So my judgement of classes is apparently off, and I don't know all of the classes that well.

That's not so bad at all. The page mentions that if you really like a class, you're likely to think it's a tier higher than it really is. I'd put DFA at tier 3 as well, for instance. And I'd probably put paladin at tier 4 rather than 5. But that happens.

The thing to understand about the tier system is that, while it's a great way to look at the classes, it's not at all set in stone. Shugenja, for instance, is on that page listed as tier 3, but I hear people call it tier 2 all the time. The other problem is that D&D, once you get rid of racial favored classes, really encourages multi-classing.

Honestly it makes me think that, far more useful than a tier system of classes would be a tier system of strategies. Shapeshifting tends to be a better style than sword and board fighting, etc etc. Now that I write it down it sounds sort of stupid, actually.

[kardar233]

:smallsigh:

You are completely missing the point. Yes, a Diplomancer is around a thousand times better than even the best played Truenamer. That is neither here nor there. I was responding to the idea that a Truenamer somehow required as much optimization as a Diplomancer, which is just not true.

On the contrary, I believe you are missing mine. As I laid out there, taking the amount of optimization towards Truespeak checks required to make the Truenamer work against mooks of his level and applying it to Diplomacy will allow him to make fighting irrelevant as he just sets their disposition to Indifferent, and they can make small talk.

Or to put it another way:
One guy works out some, gets pretty strong, takes a big sledgehammer and hits an enemy in the face with it. Bam, one enemy down.

The other guy gets just as strong, does the same amount of working out, and then picks up an armload of dynamite and throws it into a building full of enemies.

Sure, taking guys down with a sledgehammer to the face is pretty damn effective. But when another guy who went to the same amount of trouble (optimization) that you did and took out more like a hundred enemies, there's a serious disparity.

It gets worse once you realize that the guy who's using Diplomacy still has a class behind him.

[Taelas]

On the contrary, I believe you are missing mine. As I laid out there, taking the amount of optimization towards Truespeak checks required to make the Truenamer work against mooks of his level and applying it to Diplomacy will allow him to make fighting irrelevant as he just sets their disposition to Indifferent, and they can make small talk.

I was responding to a specific idea, namely that Truenamer somehow required the same level of optimization as the Diplomancer. The Diplomancer is a very specific TO build. Merely using Diplomacy does not make you a Diplomancer.

You also assume that merely changing attitude is enough to make someone stop fighting you, which is completely baseless. It only works if their former attitude was the only reason they were fighting you.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I think the main disconnect here (regarding truenamer) is a bit of misleading text from the original tier post:

Also note that with enough optimization, it's generally possible to go up a tier, and if played poorly you can easily drop a few tiers, but this is a general averaging, assuming that everyone in the party is playing with roughly the same skill and optimization level.While at the same time the point is made that tiers measure potential. There's a difference between holding optimization constant and holding optimization at a particular point. If tiers measure practical optimization potential, you're doing the latter, and it only describes class balance at that level of optimization. Assuming that level of optimization scales downward means you're on shaky ground.

Consider the Druid compared to, well, the rest of T1. At the fringe of practical optimization (barring Planar Shepherd) the Druid is probably at the bottom of T1. But what if we consider the Druid "out of the box," without much optimization? It's probably the most powerful class in the game, and definitely the best in T1.

Now consider a level 1 Beguiler and a level 1 Wizard, played at medium optimization. (That means neither the Beguiler nor the Wizard are using shenanigans to qualify for higher level spells.) Now consider all the fun TLN batman spells the wizard is going to take; then realize that outside of Grease and Ray of Enfeeblement* and maybe a couple others, the Beguiler pretty much has all of them. On top of that, he casts them all spontaneously, knows a bunch of situational spells, casts in light armor, has a better hit die, and has a ton of skills. Now consider an unoptimized Warmage and an unoptimized evoker Wizard. Not much of a difference in power.

I think we're starting to see a trend here. Classes with more standardized, "out of the box" abilities (and classes who don't get utterly ridiculous abilities in general) remain at roughly the same level of capabilities over larger spans of optimization. On the other hand, classes with the most insane abilities also tend to vary hugely in power depending on level of optimization. This means that if we focus on a different point of optimization, namely low-to-mid optimization, the in-game power levels aren't in the same order. The tiers shift. So sure, tiers measure "potential," but what does that potential even mean to a low op group?

Back to the original point, which caused me to ramble like this: Truenamers, when heavily optimized, play like a moderately optimized T3/4. What about when they're in the hands of a low op player? If considering a universal tier system for every table is doomed (like I contend), the tier system can at least warn players against the potential abuses of T1/T2 classes and the potential pratfalls of T6 classes. The people who make up the tier system already have a good idea of how the system works. Tiers should inform less mechanically inclined players and DMs that Truenamers and Monks and the like need help to succeed. If a DM sees Truenamer at T3 and takes it at face value, why would he allow his player an item familiar just to "keep up?" He's T3! He's fine. Except not.

*Grease at level 1 lasts one round. Ray of Enfeeblement similarly comes into its own at later levels, where the disparity between AC and touch AC increases.

[Tvtyrant]

Now that I write it down it sounds sort of stupid, actually.

Not at all; I think making a list of strategies and their relative level compared to each other would make life a lot easier for new people. Explaining Spells>Powers>Shifting>everything else is one of the end results of many handbooks.

[MeeposFire]

Personally I think truenamers should be kept off the tier list. I love truenamers but unlike every other character they require you to optimize to even work. If you don't optimize a monk on a basic level you will suck but he will work. You fail to optimize a TN and you can't do anything. Truenamers can get some interesting and effective abilities but in order to do this you have to use so many resources and tricks that it screws with the tier system and then you have to compare them with classes of that optmization level. That just makes things weird.

[Lans]

You could probably compare what a monk or soulknife does with out any optimization to what a truenamer does also with out any optimization.

Though then we have to get into what with out any optimization means.

[Divide by Zero]

Personally I think truenamers should be kept off the tier list. I love truenamers but unlike every other character they require you to optimize to even work. If you don't optimize a monk on a basic level you will suck but he will work. You fail to optimize a TN and you can't do anything. Truenamers can get some interesting and effective abilities but in order to do this you have to use so many resources and tricks that it screws with the tier system and then you have to compare them with classes of that optmization level. That just makes things weird.

This is why it doesn't have a tier. Other classes go up or down depending on how you optimize them. Truenamer goes from incapable of contribution to basically a warlock at some point, and never really goes anywhere else.

[Pechvarry]

*snip*

I seem to remember a project at one point where people were trying to establish the practical tier range of classes, but I don't remember if it ever got anywhere. i.e. a Wizard can be a tier 4, a tier 3, or a tier 1 (it's pretty much never a tier 2, I suppose).
It gets a little smelly, because you have to establish a (subjective) limit somewhere on the bottom. Back to the wizard, people who manage to make their wizard play in line with tiers 5 and 6 actually do not understand the rules or purposefully play their characters poorly. So you have to establish a guideline where "players at this level could play commoners and notice no difference" or some such.

I wouldn't say the universal tier system is doomed, though. At a table like mine where everyone purposefully avoids polymorph and spells that will nullify other party members' roles, a wizard + paladin party works. That would seem like evidence of tier failure, but it's because the guidelines help us decide how much we should watch the wizard's spell selection, and how willing we are to let the Paladin do anything cheesy he wants (unless he's a kobald).

A quick note on truenamers: without looking up anything to back me up, it seems to me that a mid-op truenamer could function pretty well as a support-onry character. The DCs for affecting your allies are a bit less horrifying to make. I believe we discovered in Kyeudo's Truenamer Fix thread that the vanilla Truenamer is one of the strongest healers in the game, assuming he can make his checks. Of course, healing is sub-optimal bla bla bla, but a healing/buffing version of a warlock is at least interesting.

So did this thread ever start making a list of missing classes?

[Psyren]

You could probably compare what a monk or soulknife does with out any optimization to what a truenamer does also with out any optimization.

Though then we have to get into what with out any optimization means.

A good baseline is "nothing that could require explicit DM approval." In other words:

-no custom items/unique items/Item Familiars
-no organizational memberships/"location buffs"
-standard WBL
-no setting-specific material (feats, traits, items or ACFs.)

Looking for instance at Zaq's truenamer, this would cost him his custom competence ring and his Paragnostic Assembly membership (-20... pretty bad.) On the plus side, he'd get the wealth he spent on those back for perhaps some less permanent buffs, or some wands to UMD.

For the monk, it would mean not having access to that training dummy thing whose name I forget. He would still, however, have access to SUS and a Monk's Belt, because neither are custom nor setting-specific.

[Lans]

That seems reasonable enough. Though it leaves room for a bit of optimization it does cut out most of the things that help truenamers.


I don't think ACFs should be included for the monk or soulknife.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

A good baseline is "nothing that could require explicit DM approval." In other words:

-no custom items/unique items/Item Familiars
-no organizational memberships/"location buffs"
-standard WBL
-no setting-specific material (feats, traits, items or ACFs.)

Looking for instance at Zaq's truenamer, this would cost him his custom competence ring and his Paragnostic Assembly membership (-20... pretty bad.) On the plus side, he'd get the wealth he spent on those back for perhaps some less permanent buffs, or some wands to UMD.

For the monk, it would mean not having access to that training dummy thing whose name I forget. He would still, however, have access to SUS and a Monk's Belt, because neither are custom nor setting-specific.But you still have to set an optimization level, since most of the campaign smashers have this setting assumed.

[kardar233]

And also, Zaq mentions that quickening Utterances is about the only reason to play a Truenamer.

At 9th level, which is when you gain Quicken, you're looking at a DC 53 Truespeak check (15+18+20) to drop a Quickened utterance on an enemy with CR equal to your level, or one of your allies.

Making a Diplomacy check to make the target Friendly from Hostile as a full-round action is a DC 45 Diplomacy check.

This means that it takes less skill check optimization to Diplomance than it takes to play a worthwhile Truenamer.

[Taelas]

And also, Zaq mentions that quickening Utterances is about the only reason to play a Truenamer.

At 9th level, which is when you gain Quicken, you're looking at a DC 53 Truespeak check (15+18+20) to drop a Quickened utterance on an enemy with CR equal to your level, or one of your allies.

Making a Diplomacy check to make the target Friendly from Hostile as a full-round action is a DC 45 Diplomacy check.

This means that it takes less skill check optimization to Diplomance than it takes to play a worthwhile Truenamer.

....

No.

Stop making assumptions as to what is a Diplomancer.

[olentu]

....

No.

Stop making assumptions as to what is a Diplomancer.

Well why not tell them what definition of Diplomancer you are using then they would presumably stop making assumptions.

[Taelas]

I have already stated that a Diplomancer must be able to make a DC 50 Diplomacy check at a -10 penalty.

[Psyren]

I don't think ACFs should be included for the monk or soulknife.

If you want, but the Soulknife ACFs don't help its tier at all anyway. I'm pretty sure the same is true for Monk, though there's always something that could surprise me.


But you still have to set an optimization level, since most of the campaign smashers have this setting assumed.

I'm not sure how you would set something as ephemeral as that. "No more than X sourcebooks?" "Maximum of Y dips?" "No consumables?" How do you even define an "optimization level?"

[NineThePuma]

I have already stated that a Diplomancer must be able to make a DC 50 Diplomacy check at a -10 penalty.

Why the heck would you have a -10 penalty? There are a dozen ways to get rid of that check.

From a gestalt level 3 build (that could easily be converted to a level 6 build and be BETTER): Old Half Elf; Half Elf Paragon 1/Half Elf Bardic Sage 1/Half Elf Paragon +1//Marshal 1/Dragon Fire Adept 1/Binder 1

Feats taken that affect this: Complementary Insight, Negotiator.

Charisma Modifier (+5), Skill ranks (+6), with a total modifier of +39. It does NOT suffer the -10 penalty. If I COULD have used Nymph's Kiss, I would be able to bump that up to +41 (and there's an open feat slot for it.)

Here's a quick level 6 build~

Venerable Half Elf Paragon 1/Marshal 1/Dragon Fire Adept 1/Half Elf Bardic Sage 1/Half Elf Paragon +1/Binder 1.

Final Diplomacy Check: +45. (+47 with Nymph's Kiss)

It has a 1d6 breath weapon it can use every round, and can probably grab Entangling Exhalation with a feat for battle field control. Bardic Sage can shut down ANY opponent that can't make a DC 44 will save, once per day.

AND, the character is pretty flavorful. I arranged the classes such that you could actually see a storyline with them.

Minor note: No WBL was spent. Presumably at level 6 you have the gold for a +2 cloak of charisma, which jumps the diplomacy check by two points.

What's the true namer doing at level 6?

[Taelas]

Yes, there are ways. All involve optimization.

[NineThePuma]

And your point about the true namer doesn't hold though. It is inferior to me hitting someone with a sword until I get something to Quicken utterances.

Honestly, though, if you guys want to argue about the true namer, MAKE A THREAD. Don't derail this one, please.


I would place Totemists at Tier 3 or so; the Tier list's rankings (excluding tier 1) are based on versatility, and Totemists are pretty versatile.

[kardar233]

I have already stated that a Diplomancer must be able to make a DC 50 Diplomacy check at a -10 penalty.

Fine. Assuming equal skill check optimization, by the time a Truenamer is able to make Quickened Utterances on a CR13 opponent, the Diplomancer will be making enemies into best friends.

With the same amount of skill check optimization, you would be able to hear an owl swooping from 100 feet away, with a stone wall in between, while you're paying attention to someone.

[Lans]

That is why the truenamer really shouldn't be placed in tier 3, it takes heavy optimization to get to where a normal tier 3 would be.

Also isn't diplomancerTO on the level of chain gating?

[Psyren]

My (perhaps too) subtle question from earlier wasn't yet answered; what tier is Marshal? (Miniatures Handbook, I believe.)

[Lans]

Low 4, its pretty good at charisma skills and alrightish else where.

[Big Fau]

Low 4, its pretty good at charisma skills and alrightish else where.

It would be much better if it had Full BAB and wasn't 4 levels long.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'm not sure how you would set something as ephemeral as that. "No more than X sourcebooks?" "Maximum of Y dips?" "No consumables?" How do you even define an "optimization level?"IIRC Test of Spite did something similar to what I'm thinking by including the entire build in their tier consideration. I believe Shneeky also made a describing different 'tiers' of optimization. It's possible in a broad sense, even if subtle differences and the 'edges' of different tiers will be difficult to find... just like with class tiers.

I guess I could make up a rough tier list off the top of my head, using magical and "melee"* examples:

T0 - Campaign Smashers
Everything Example: Level 1 Kobold Paladin

T1 - Fringe of Practical Optimization
Caster Example: Cheater of Mystra
Melee Example: Ubercharger

T2 - High Optimization
Caster Example: Your typical paranoid, divination-using, contingent-spell-crafting batman wizard
Melee Example: Half Minotaur Barbarian/Fighter with pounce, whirling frenzy, dungeoncrasher, zhentarim, knockback, shocktrooper, intimidation feats, etc.

T3 - Medium Optimization
Caster Example: Cloistered Cleric with no DMM, focusing on party buffs like Recitation, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and Mass Shield of Faith
Melee Example: Stormguard Warrior AoO build

T4 - Low Optimization
Caster Example: Evocation blaster wizard who manages to know/prep obvious utility like fly and teleport
Melee Example: Vanilla Barbarian with Power Attack and Cleave

T5 - New player and/or intentionally gimping yourself
Caster Example: Above blaster who only knows fire spells (no searing spell, obviously)
Melee Example: Sword and board weapon finesse halfling vanilla fighter, "becuz my AC is liek 22!!1"

T6/no tier - Race to the bottom
Caster Example: Naked Int 5 Wizard
Melee Example: Naked Int 5 Wizard

Of course, optimization will fall between the tiers, which could be rewritten as a scale. The Mailman is probably 1.5, most characters I make probably fall around 2.5 (though some fall lower), and I've seen far too many characters around the 5.5 range, but it's simple enough.

*Yes, the melee example is generally not as powerful or versatile as its casting tier companion; that's sort of the point of the class tier list.

[stainboy]

My (perhaps too) subtle question from earlier wasn't yet answered; what tier is Marshal? (Miniatures Handbook, I believe.)

I'm gonna say T5. It has a rigid role (buffing and socialocity) which puts it in T4 or below, and it can't shine at either next to a bard which puts it in T5.

[Big Fau]

I'm gonna say T5. It has a rigid role (buffing and socialocity) which puts it in T4 or below, and it can't shine at either next to a bard which puts it in T5.

It's also only 4 levels long, at most (if you want the Grant Move Action and have items that provide additional uses).

[Lans]

It can be more, especially with dragon magic substitution. I put it at Tier 4 because its actually a decent in the skill monkey and support role.