Dm's who just can't do treasure right...

[hobbitkniver]

So in one of my campaigns, we almost never get treasure. After a gigantic mission spanning 2 real months, all the treasure we got was a homebrew Deck of many things which was incredibly weak and bland, gems for no purpose other than money (and very seldom that we got to keep them), many cursed items (at least 15 total), a magic crossbow we were forced to give to an NPC, a sword made of gold that we had to give to an NPC, some mundane exotic weapons no one was proficient in and one more thing...

After we killed the final boss for this story arch, we all got an unlimited wish. Our knight gained the ability to turn into a huge dragon once per day. Our rogue got a gold castle. Our Drow with like 4 classes wished to know everything about everything. Our fighter got the ability to summon dragons of any kind at will. I, a ranger, got a bow that NEVER misses. I asked for a bow and I got one that couldn't miss.

The next session, he dealt my level 4 character 8d8 damage from a minor enemy without a name even and nearly killed me. Later on, I told him that the bow was crazy and I was willing to get rid of it. So now, I ended up with no wish and got into a fight with him saying that by giving up my power, I'm just getting screwed. Before you ask, the drow died, but the other two still have their powers. So the DM after today, requested that another player give me a talk about the "rule sharking" which was complaining about losing my wish.

So now, I'm in very bad terms with my DM and have been gimped. Aside from this, not once have we ever gotten gold as a reward or a piece of magic equipment. This DM isn't a little kid either, he's in his thirties and has a wife and kids, but he's very immature. I suspect that people will be telling me to quit, but I don't think I could find another group. Is there something I could say to this DM that he wouldn't feel as a personal attack?

[Drelua]

That hardly sounds worth playing. I'd talk to the other players ahead of time, and then maybe bring it up with them there. This way, assuming they agree with you, your DM can't act like your the problem. Of course, he might feel like you're ganging up on him if you do that. If he still won't do things a little different, get someone else to DM. You don't have to kick him out of the group, but it doesn't sound like he'd be a very good player either. How close of a friend is he?

[Deimess]

Have you simply asked him why you never get to keep magic items? Or why you never receive gold as a reward? They are in the game for a reason.

[Big Fau]

Have you simply asked him why you never get to keep magic items? Or why you never receive gold as a reward? They are in the game for a reason.

I can answer that for you: This DM has never read the DMG cover-to-cover. It's obvious from the OP's post.


Try running a campaign yourself. Any DM who thinks a bow that never misses is more powerful than summoning any kind of Dragon at will needs to be put into an asylum. Preferably not Arkham.

[faceroll]

Any DM who thinks a bow that never misses is less powerful than summoning any kind of Dragon at will needs to be put into an asylum. Preferably not Arkham.

Uh, it's really not THAT powerful, as a ranger doesn't have a whole lot of sources of extra damage, and at level 4, he's making at most 2 attacks a round. It's slightly more damage than a warlock, who makes touch attacks.

[Shadow Lord]

I have a DM who's like this, except opposite. And it's that everyone except me gets teh lootz. In example; I have 3 scrolls. The Rogue has a +3 Flaming, Speed, Bane ( Constructs ) Rapier. I lol'd at the bane constructs but the rest was very :smallannoyed: Oh, and we're level 4 - 5.

[Ursus the Grim]

Is there something I could say to this DM that he wouldn't feel as a personal attack?

What I would say?

"Can I retrain two of my feats?"

Pick up Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty. Problem of no wealth is fixed. Is it as optimal as getting your deserved items and WBL? No. But it could, in theory, avoid direct conflict with the DM while still giving you some way to scale with level. At least until he realizes you have an edge over the other players because he isn't giving anyone any gear, despite their shiny gold castles.

Edit:
Fun fact. If you can get that bow back, you could argue that it probably counts as an artifact and that it shouldn't count against you for VoP. But that's a stretch. Like Mr. Fantastic stretch.

[Big Fau]

Uh, it's really not THAT powerful, as a ranger doesn't have a whole lot of sources of extra damage, and at level 4, he's making at most 2 attacks a round. It's slightly more damage than a warlock, who makes touch attacks.

Gah, I messed up on the wording there. I was meaning to say that the bow was less powerful than the summoning abilities, my bad.

[hobbitkniver]

To be fair, a dragon has never been summoned. He just uses it as an ace in the hole.

[Big Fau]

To be fair, a dragon has never been summoned. He just uses it as an ace in the hole.

Oh, I see. You actually used your bow, thus the DM thought you shouldn't have a nice thing and played Indian Giver.


Do me a favor: Find a hammergun. Shoot him.

[Ursus the Grim]

Do me a favor: Find a hammergun. Shoot him.

Normally I can't condone violence against another human, but I've been seeing more and more cases where I consider exceptions. I support this. It will probably go over better than trying to teach him how to assign loot.

[jguy]

I had to have a long conversation with our DM about loot during a very screwy time-hopping Undead campaign. Since all the enemies were undead, zombies and skeletons specifically, and undead don't have random loot, he never rolled for treasure. I swear, we went from level 3 to level 9 -starving- for loot. I had a +1 breastplate for the entire time and a Rod of Viscid Globes and an Anklet of Translocation was considered huge finds for us. Wasn't so bad for me since I was a Cleric/Warlock theurge so I had no need for weapons, but I felt bad for the scout/duskblade. He never got skirmish damage and his weapon at the end of the game was a +1 adamantine greatsword.

He got better for the next undead campaign. Finding Caches of gold in houses and such helped with it. We got rewards from people we saved to make up for loss of monster loot.

[hobbitkniver]

A few of us actually sat down and had a talk with him about this and other things, but nothing has changed with this particular problem.

[Ursus the Grim]

A few of us actually sat down and had a talk with him about this and other things, but nothing has changed with this particular problem.

Wait, recently? Or prior to starting this thread?

[hobbitkniver]

Wait, recently? Or prior to starting this thread?

A few sessions prior.

[Deimess]

Wait, what do you fight mostly? I know that my players mostly fight base mobs with class levels and magic items. But even if you mostly fight straight up monsters they have to have SOMETHING.

[SowZ]

Unlimited Wish is worth more than the 5 and a half k a 4th level character should have. The issue doesn't seem to be lack of wealth in general but wonky distribution. No treasure, no treasure, no treasure, OMG FORT KOX!
Having a DM who doesn't give many valuable things out isn't bad as long as the players like the game. If you want a sensible economy, magic items around every corner isn't the way to go and a decent sword is pretty valuable.

For example, I like to play low-magic settings. This restricts mages, (because without magic items martial classes scale even slower,) and makes a magic item incredibly rare. Even a high level character is doing well to have one such item. So I don't see lack of loot as a problem.

I do see a problem, though. Mainly, giving someone unlimited wish at fourth level and complaining about brokeness. I just wonder if this guy really understands D&D that well. I don't wonder too much, though. I suspect he hasn't played that much or else he has played games that are 90% homebrew or he played lots of AD&D and still hasn't got 3rd down. When this is the case with your DM, he is either willing to learn more or not. If he is not, maybe he is willing to let someone try DMing out.

[Ursus the Grim]

Unlimited Wish is worth more than the 5 and a half k a 4th level character should have. The issue doesn't seem to be lack of wealth in general but wonky distribution. No treasure, no treasure, no treasure, OMG FORT KOX!
Having a DM who doesn't give many valuable things out isn't bad as long as the players like the game. If you want a sensible economy, magic items around every corner isn't the way to go and a decent sword is pretty valuable.

For example, I like to play low-magic settings. This restricts mages, (because without magic items martial classes scale even slower,) and makes a magic item incredibly rare. Even a high level character is doing well to have one such item. So I don't see lack of loot as a problem.

I do see a problem, though. Mainly, giving someone unlimited wish at fourth level and complaining about brokeness. I just wonder if this guy really understands D&D that well. I don't wonder too much, though. I suspect he hasn't played that much or else he has played games that are 90% homebrew or he played lots of AD&D and still hasn't got 3rd down. When this is the case with your DM, he is either willing to learn more or not. If he is not, maybe he is willing to let someone try DMing out.

This quote contains a hilarious typo, but yes, you've managed to essentially scope out the issue as presented. Off-balance distribution of reward. While the value of the Unlimited Wish may not be completely unreasonable, it should actually have been split up into several different rewards. Maybe, next time you level, point out that your total wealth is far below the WBL found on page 135 and ask if its intentional. If he insists that the Unlimited Wish makes up for all of that, specifically point him to the part that recommends that that WBL be split up into a set number of different items. The bit about the fighter with the Nine Lives Stealer is mostly applicable.

[hobbitkniver]

Wait, what do you fight mostly? I know that my players mostly fight base mobs with class levels and magic items. But even if you mostly fight straight up monsters they have to have SOMETHING.

We fight a lot of things like knights (not the class) with an AC of about 25 and I suddenly wonder how a human knight with no magic has this armorclass.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I had a DM who couldn't do treasure right, or rather he thought he knew better then the DMG about how much treasure (and what kind) we should get for our level. At level 10, a +2 weapon was a big deal for our group of 6+ people. We had no fancy magical items. Only the mage player, druid player, and me (warblade for those wondering), got any chances to do anything because it's an un-optimized party to begin with and to top it off we had no money.

The kicker though was when that DM rotated out with his wife (they swapped back and forth in DMing the same campaign), who knows much less about the rules but had at least read the treasure rules apparently, had us fight a white dragon and some of it's minions. It was a great day for all involved cause everyone had a ranged weapon (except me, but I kept busy by stuffing treasure into bags of holding in case the battle turned south and we had to run, which I was fine with) and the dragon couldn't get close to use. But once we beat it and she started reading off the treasure, her husband (the previous DM) pulled her aside into the other room and talked to her in private. Had a small argument no one could really hear but we found out what it was about when they both came back in...and the dragon had abruptly turned into a load-bearing boss and it's ice cave began to collapse on us. Que everyone desperately trying to shovel as much gold and magical items as we could lay our hands on into the bags of holding before swimming for freedom, cause we knew we weren't getting another haul like this again anytime soon. Finally had to give up and run, but that was apparently the breaking point for the mage's player who, despite having the spot-light about 40% of the time, was starved for cash on his personal products. He went back to town at the start of the next session (which had the male-DM back), hired a bunch of peasants, and had them start digging the treasure out while the rest of us stood guard (cause we all knew it couldn't be that easy).

...The treasure was half gone, and not half gone as in we managed to somehow grab half of it before running, but someone had apparently gotten to it before us without having to dig it up. Turns out the male DM's DMPC quarterling thief had magically grabbed half the treasure while we were digging for it and us not noticing and had disappared. Cue the mage using, for the first time, using scry-and-die tactics to locate the little bugger, grab the monk, and teleport out to get the treasure back and murder the little menace. It didn't make sense WHY he'd grabbed the monk (the mage's player knew I was a better meleer) at the time until he got out there. Mage-player knew he'd never be able to kill the quarterling, or rather wouldn't be allowed to, so he torched the ship and teleported back so the quarterling couldn't use the treasure....while the monk grabbed what he could and swam back to shore, revealing the reason he took the monk and not my warblade (heavy armor=no swimming). We still ended up with a very pathetic dragon's hoard to our name that had little to no magical items thanks to the quarterling. That's actually where I got my +2 sword come to think of it...


...The mage-player and I came up with all sorts of plans to hunt down the little bugger and end him after that stunt, so the male-DM couldn't whip that excuse out of nowhere to jilt us of treasure again, but we never got the chance to implement them cause that campaign ended shortly there-after.

[SowZ]

We fight a lot of things like knights (not the class) with an AC of about 25 and I suddenly wonder how a human knight with no magic has this armorclass.

10 + 8(Plate) + 4(Tower Shield) + 2(Dex) +1(Shield Specialization)

Requires two feats. So if the Knight is a first level fighter he can do it. He would have better gear then most first level fighters but if he has a wealthy employer...

I had a DM who couldn't do treasure right, or rather he thought he knew better then the DMG about how much treasure (and what kind) we should get for our level. At level 10, a +2 weapon was a big deal for our group of 6+ people. We had no fancy magical items. Only the mage player, druid player, and me (warblade for those wondering), got any chances to do anything because it's an un-optimized party to begin with and to top it off we had no money.

The kicker though was when that DM rotated out with his wife (they swapped back and forth in DMing the same campaign), who knows much less about the rules but had at least read the treasure rules apparently, had us fight a white dragon and some of it's minions. It was a great day for all involved cause everyone had a ranged weapon (except me, but I kept busy by stuffing treasure into bags of holding in case the battle turned south and we had to run, which I was fine with) and the dragon couldn't get close to use. But once we beat it and she started reading off the treasure, her husband (the previous DM) pulled her aside into the other room and talked to her in private. Had a small argument no one could really hear but we found out what it was about when they both came back in...and the dragon had abruptly turned into a load-bearing boss and it's ice cave began to collapse on us. Que everyone desperately trying to shovel as much gold and magical items as we could lay our hands on into the bags of holding before swimming for freedom, cause we knew we weren't getting another haul like this again anytime soon. Finally had to give up and run, but that was apparently the breaking point for the mage's player who, despite having the spot-light about 40% of the time, was starved for cash on his personal products. He went back to town at the start of the next session (which had the male-DM back), hired a bunch of peasants, and had them start digging the treasure out while the rest of us stood guard (cause we all knew it couldn't be that easy).

...The treasure was half gone, and not half gone as in we managed to somehow grab half of it before running, but someone had apparently gotten to it before us without having to dig it up. Turns out the male DM's DMPC quarterling thief had magically grabbed half the treasure while we were digging for it and us not noticing and had disappared. Cue the mage using, for the first time, using scry-and-die tactics to locate the little bugger, grab the monk, and teleport out to get the treasure back and murder the little menace. It didn't make sense WHY he'd grabbed the monk (the mage's player knew I was a better meleer) at the time until he got out there. Mage-player knew he'd never be able to kill the quarterling, or rather wouldn't be allowed to, so he torched the ship and teleported back so the quarterling couldn't use the treasure....while the monk grabbed what he could and swam back to shore, revealing the reason he took the monk and not my warblade (heavy armor=no swimming). We still ended up with a very pathetic dragon's hoard to our name that had little to no magical items thanks to the quarterling. That's actually where I got my +2 sword come to think of it...


...The mage-player and I came up with all sorts of plans to hunt down the little bugger and end him after that stunt, so the male-DM couldn't whip that excuse out of nowhere to jilt us of treasure again, but we never got the chance to implement them cause that campaign ended shortly there-after.

Was it a low magic setting?

[Ursus the Grim]

10 + 8(Plate) + 4(Tower Shield) + 2(Dex) +1(Shield Specialization)

Requires two feats. So if the Knight is a first level fighter he can do it. He would have better gear then most first level fighters but if he had a wealthy employer...

Heck, that's not just more gold than an NPC fighter should have. That's more gold than a PC fighter would have at that level. By almost double.

[SowZ]

Heck, that's not just more gold than an NPC fighter should have. That's more gold than a PC fighter would have at that level. By almost double.

Oh, yeah, which is why he would require a wealthy employer. A first level fighter is assumed to be a natural warrior or trained. A Knight may just be the son of a rich noble whose dad has paid for some combat training.

If most NPC fighters have this set up, yeah, that's a little crazy. But finding an occasional first or second level fighter with good gear makes sense. Alas, the best fighters are not always the best equipped. Often it is the best connected.

[Big Fau]

A Knight may just be the son of a rich noble whose dad has paid for some combat training.

You do realize that according to the DMG and DMG2, the standard issue Noble (AKA Aristocrat 1) can't even afford Breastplate for 10 guards, much less full plate for a single Fighter?


Nothing short of a Dragon or an Adventurer can actually pay those Fighters enough for them to afford Full Plate, and in the latter case there really is no reason for those Knights at all.

[Groverfield]

Heck, that's not just more gold than an NPC fighter should have. That's more gold than a PC fighter would have at that level. By almost double.
Far more than double, PC Fighters should have about 250g at around level 1. Full plate is 1500g alone.

[SowZ]

You do realize that according to the DMG and DMG2, the standard issue Noble (AKA Aristocrat 1) can't even afford Breastplate for 10 guards, much less full plate for a single Fighter?


Nothing short of a Dragon or an Adventurer can actually pay those Fighters enough for them to afford Full Plate, and in the latter case there really is no reason for those Knights at all.

Yeah, which is why I said a rich noble. Not just a noble. A very rich noble could buy his punk of a son full plate and some fighter training. But you probably won't run into this situation very often.

Besides, he asked how human fighters without magic could have 25 AC and I was just saying it is theoretically possible for a level one fighter to have 25 AC. My point wasn't that level one NPCs sould be sporting plate but more that a full plate wearing tower shield wielding human can have 25 AC with little trouble. Most of the 'knights' they are fighting probably aren't level one, anyway.

[faceroll]

You do realize that according to the DMG and DMG2, the standard issue Noble (AKA Aristocrat 1) can't even afford Breastplate for 10 guards, much less full plate for a single Fighter?


Nothing short of a Dragon or an Adventurer can actually pay those Fighters enough for them to afford Full Plate, and in the latter case there really is no reason for those Knights at all.

His retainer is conjuring walls of iron and using fabricate.
:smallsigh:

[SowZ]

His retainer is conjuring walls of iron and using fabricate.
:smallsigh:

Hehe. In a high magic setting without high organization of the magic users, everything can easily be far cheaper then the DMG or PHP states, anyway.

EDIT: I messed up a bit by giving the NPC a plus two dex mod. He is wearing plate. Doh' on me. 25 AC still isn't absurd. Even without magic, the right feats can see a fighter with an AC of 30+ by level 6 or so.

[Dream_Merchant]

Damn, the previous post by Callos, despite the frustration, sounds like a blast.. at least, for as long as it lasted lol.
Seriously though, there are many wrongs with your DM.
(a) Granting unlimited wishes and vorpal blades of doom is a game-scuppering mistake and the sign of an inexperienced DM. No matter what, no matter when. Unless you have Level 30 epic gods which more or less can shape existence at will and at which level neither wishes nor the rules matter. Because when you are a god you no longer care about combat, world domination or causes. You turn yourself into a bull, come down to earth to enjoy the finer aspects of life and... well, just read Greek mythology ;)

(b) Treasure is essential in any form. I can understand if the DM wants to run a low magic item campaign, but he should state it from the start and consider the available character options so that the game is balanced. From my experience that is really hard as it is easier to stick with the rules and tweak them when it makes sense, rather than come up with a completely new set of rules, especially for such an esoteric game mechanic as treasure.

Maybe he is afraid to hand out potentially unknown to him equipment which could upset his game, in that case stick with core equipment. But then again, he is dishing out wishes and vorpal bunnies... so maybe a better advice would be to photocopy the relevant parts of the DMG (which he better own) and highlight them for him to read.

[hobbitkniver]

Heck, that's not just more gold than an NPC fighter should have. That's more gold than a PC fighter would have at that level. By almost double.

And these particular knights don't carry shields because we tried to take them. Of course, we couldn't take the swords or armor either. Considering how many we killed, the armor could be worth something.

(b) Treasure is essential in any form. I can understand if the DM wants to run a low magic item campaign, but he should state it from the start and consider the available character options so that the game is balanced. From my experience that is really hard as it is easier to stick with the rules and tweak them when it makes sense, rather than come up with a completely new set of rules, especially for such an esoteric game mechanic as treasure.


He didn't say a thing about playing a low magic campaign and gave no reason to assume it

[OracleofWuffing]

Don't get me wrong, gear (and the proper distribution of it) is important to the game, but if your DM doesn't want to hear about "rules sharking", he probably doesn't want to read the Treasure/Wealth by Level rule guidelines. I guess if this is really as unapproachable as it sounds, I guess I'd have to side with retrain to Vow of Poverty or suicide yourself to a class that provides its own gear... Soulbow's worth a shot if you want to keep things ranged, maybe.

Could I ask for clarification why you were willing to part with your bow? I mean, it seems like you might have got the short end of the stick in terms of rewards (well, okay, maybe the Drow did, seeing as how knowing everything about everything encompassed nothing about how he was going to die), but just as an outsider looking in, being the only actual carryable reward, it feels like it had PLOT DEVICE written all over it.


I had a DM who couldn't do treasure right, or rather he thought he knew better then the DMG about how much treasure (and what kind) we should get for our level...
Applause!

[Hazzardevil]

i think that frankly, you and the drow got the short of the stick, seeing as you have now both lost your items from the wish.
The bow that never misses actually has some rather cheesy applications of it. (IE: declaring an attack on a commoner on the far side of the world and you will hit.) but he just seemed annoyed that you were using your bow like any other item and he got pissed. Now infinite knowledge that doesn't include your own death does seem rather annoying, but with infinite knowledge your DM is forced to do one thing and can't change it everyday.

Now I'm not siding with your DM, but I think he killed you off because he didn't like you using that bow all the time.

[darksolitaire]

And these particular knights don't carry shields because we tried to take them.

Squire: "Sir, would you like to carry your tower shield while going patrolling?"
Sir Knightsmore: "Nay, lad. Should I be killed, that bugger would loot my corpse, and sell the shield, and we certainly wouldn't want that!"



Of course, we couldn't take the swords or armor either. Considering how many we killed, the armor could be worth something.


So, you couldn't take it...why? You couldn't carry it? It came enchanted with anti-theft spells? It was set to self-destruct when the wearer is killed? Some mystical force prevented you from touching it?

This, combined with your first post have made me think that your DM might also be railroading you.

[Retech]

It's simple, really.

Walk around some nice city and chat up with some nice NPCs, asking the DM for a description, including magical items and such.

Suddenly have the party turn evil because they discover that adventuring has bad loot, and start killing stuff.

[SowZ]

The only way I know how human fighters without crazy dex and bizarre combinations could get 25 AC without sheilds involves combat expertise and taking serious hit penalties. Somehow I think he is just making up arbitrary numbers. The monster manula is there for a reason!

When DMs don't let you do simple things for no reason that's when you test him. While travelling the rickety bridge, just jump off. See if he even knows how to respond to something so bizarre and unexpected. Remember, darksolitare, the knights had no magic. Apparently a god made them all have no desire to loot the weapons. Seriously, this is controlling your characters actions and tanatmount to making your characters decisions/speaking for them.


It's simple, really.

Walk around some nice city and chat up with some nice NPCs, asking the DM for a description, including magical items and such.

Suddenly have the party turn evil because they discover that adventuring has bad loot, and start killing stuff.

Oooh, yeah, do this and get back to us.

[Ursus the Grim]

It's simple, really.

Walk around some nice city and chat up with some nice NPCs, asking the DM for a description, including magical items and such.

Suddenly have the party turn evil because they discover that adventuring has bad loot, and start killing stuff.

I think the point is that whenever they manage to actually sniff out some decent loot, the DM screws them out of it. See the Dragon example.

He is literally playing against them.

[Warmage]

Here's how you fix it:

1) Go evil
2) Kill everyone (including plot-important NPCs)
3) Take their gear
4) DM eventually kills you (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocksFallEveryoneDies)
5) Start new campaign with new DM (maybe one of the current players)
6) Old DM rolls PC
7) Screw old DM out of loot
8) Old DM complains and "rules sharks"
9) Old DM hopefully learns lesson and becomes better DM (or he just quits)

[INDYSTAR188]

In my opinion one of the best things about being a DM is getting to pick the treasure your PC's are going to find. For example one of my PC's is a Wizard who worships Denier so I had him find a spell book w/a picture of a sage writing inside a book and the gods holy symbol. He can use it to do his gods work and he gets satisfaction at finding a very unique and valuable item. Also, I have a undead campaign story going on so I try to find items that would be useful for them and of course lots of gold an silver. Thats really what the games about, having fun w/you buddies, kicking baddies in the teeth, role playing, and making your character more and more awesome w/the use of useful and magic items!

[Xtomjames]

Easy fix to the DM's stupidity; play a warlock and/or artificer. Make your own loot out of the mundane things you get or from things you buy or steal. Since it's DC based he really can't argue with if you succeed or not at making the items. And if he DM hissyfits over you building an item that's "too powerful" tell him too bad, it's legal and by the book.

[Andorax]

And once again, I offer the piece of advice I hope will most help with this situation, without involving bodily harm to fellow human beings.


Ask your DM to come here.

Seriously, it sounds like the problem here is one of a lack of education, and a DM who actually wants to get better should seek out the means to do so. If he's perplexed as to why his players are angry about treasure, ship him here and we'll talk to him about it and sort things out.


Personally, I consider WBL a pretty good guideline (not a straightjacket, mind)...and will periodically, say once every 3 levels or so, call in the character sheets and do a "wealth audit" to see if things have gotten out of hand.

Usually, with my groups, it's an "under" problem, because they're absolutley notorious for getting excited about defeating the BBEG and completely forgetting to search/loot. They'll go over the first half of a dungeon with a fine-toothed comb, and then just as they're on the verge of finding a good cash stash, they'll develop door-blindness and continue right down the wrong hall. So I try to throw them a bone or two, an over-generous reward here and there, just to keep them better in line.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Yeah, he has no idea what he's doing. Just stop taking up his plot hooks. Start up a shop (DMG II) and get income that way. Take leadership and get an artificer to just make items for you guys. Also abuse everything in the book that you can think of. Self-resetting traps are a personal favorite of mine.

[Alabenson]

Here's how you fix it:

1) Go evil
2) Kill everyone (especially plot-important NPCs)
3) Take their gear
4) DM eventually kills you (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocksFallEveryoneDies)
5) Start new campaign with new DM (maybe one of the current players)
6) Old DM rolls PC
7) Screw old DM out of loot
8) Old DM complains and "rules sharks"
9) Old DM hopefully learns lesson and becomes better DM (or he just quits)

Fixed that for you.

[OracleofWuffing]

He is literally playing against them.
You know, it kind of looks that way, but the thing is... Dude wished for a bow and didn't get a frilly ribbon in return. :smalltongue:

[Ursus the Grim]

You know, it kind of looks that way, but the thing is... Dude wished for a bow and didn't get a frilly ribbon in return. :smalltongue:

+1

Then again, I never claimed he was a clever DM.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Was it a low magic setting?

No, no it wasn't.

[Tyndmyr]

Mutiny. Have one of the other players GM. High five, as the game is actually fun.

If no one player wants to GM, take turns.

[Doug Lampert]

Here's how you fix it:

1) Go evil
2) Kill everyone (including plot-important NPCs)
3) Take their gear
4) DM eventually kills you (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocksFallEveryoneDies)
5) Start new campaign with new DM (maybe one of the current players)
6) Old DM rolls PC
7) Screw old DM out of loot
8) Old DM complains and "rules sharks"
9) Old DM hopefully learns lesson and becomes better DM (or he just quits)

Skip steps 1-4, and for that matter also steps 7-9.

There's no particular reason to be vindictive, simply refuse to play with this guy as GM. Or if you're having fun then live with it.

But if you're planning to swap GMs then why bother playing it out through steps 1-4? The only reason I can see to do so is that you like pain so much that you can't get enough of this guy. As for 7-9, why mess with your NEW campaign just to get back at someone for being incompetent, you want the game to be as good as possible, gratuitously messing with a player or going GM vs. player isn't a good way to do that.

Or if you MUST stick with this guy because there's no other available GM then retire your current character and roll up a druid or cleric as your next character and make the best of it.

DougL

[The Glyphstone]

Step 6 is also extraneous, unless you have an excellent reason to keep him around.

[kestrel404]

If you're not having fun while playing, break out some boardgames and ignore this guy. Or start a new game. Or just walk away.

It's not worth it trying to 'get back' at him or 'beat him' at his own game. Every hour you spend not having fun while trying to play his game is an hour of your life you have wasted and will never get back. Instead of piling on more hours of wasted life, find something that you enjoy doing.

[gbprime]

I'm still waiting to hear why you couldn't take their armor or weapons. Looting the things you kill is where treasure COMES from. Did they have horses you weren't allowed to take either?

[Warmage]

If you're not having fun while playing, break out some boardgames and ignore this guy. Or start a new game. Or just walk away.

It's not worth it trying to 'get back' at him or 'beat him' at his own game. Every hour you spend not having fun while trying to play his game is an hour of your life you have wasted and will never get back. Instead of piling on more hours of wasted life, find something that you enjoy doing.

Exactly, but I think it would be a satisfying (and fun!) end to the campaign to go evil and shatter the railroad plot by crashing the train.

[hobbitkniver]

Squire: "Sir, would you like to carry your tower shield while going patrolling?"
Sir Knightsmore: "Nay, lad. Should I be killed, that bugger would loot my corpse, and sell the shield, and we certainly wouldn't want that!"

So, you couldn't take it...why? You couldn't carry it? It came enchanted with anti-theft spells? It was set to self-destruct when the wearer is killed? Some mystical force prevented you from touching it?

This, combined with your first post have made me think that your DM might also be railroading you.
Dunno really, the DM juust said no and thats it.


It's simple, really.

Walk around some nice city and chat up with some nice NPCs, asking the DM for a description, including magical items and such.

Suddenly have the party turn evil because they discover that adventuring has bad loot, and start killing stuff.
We haven't come across a single NPC who isn't either an enemy or importantr to the quest.

The only way I know how human fighters without crazy dex and bizarre combinations could get 25 AC without sheilds involves combat expertise and taking serious hit penalties. Somehow I think he is just making up arbitrary numbers. The monster manula is there for a reason!

When DMs don't let you do simple things for no reason that's when you test him. While travelling the rickety bridge, just jump off. See if he even knows how to respond to something so bizarre and unexpected. Remember, darksolitare, the knights had no magic. Apparently a god made them all have no desire to loot the weapons. Seriously, this is controlling your characters actions and tanatmount to making your characters decisions/speaking for them.



Oooh, yeah, do this and get back to us.
I know for a fact that his rules are arbitrary, but he would let me jump off the bridge and die instantly. If we do something he really doesn't like, he just says no. If we ask why not, "I'm the DM". Well this would be fine if he didn't try to argue class features with me without knowing anything about rangers. I'm not even sure he's ever read a DnD book. He does own them though.

Here's how you fix it:

1) Go evil
2) Kill everyone (including plot-important NPCs)
3) Take their gear
4) DM eventually kills you (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocksFallEveryoneDies)
5) Start new campaign with new DM (maybe one of the current players)
6) Old DM rolls PC
7) Screw old DM out of loot
8) Old DM complains and "rules sharks"
9) Old DM hopefully learns lesson and becomes better DM (or he just quits)

Trust me buddy, I am evil and have tried to kill many things. So far, I've only got is designated monsters. Long before I got the god-bow, there was a troll guarding a path who asked us to do a semi-evil quest for him. I wanted to kill hhim and was told he had exactly 100 AC oh and we were level 2.

[gbprime]

Then I think the simplest solution is to find another DM.

[Griffin]

So in one of my campaigns, we almost never get treasure. After a gigantic mission spanning 2 real months, all the treasure we got was a homebrew Deck of many things which was incredibly weak and bland, gems for no purpose other than money (and very seldom that we got to keep them), many cursed items (at least 15 total), a magic crossbow we were forced to give to an NPC, a sword made of gold that we had to give to an NPC, some mundane exotic weapons no one was proficient in and one more thing...

After we killed the final boss for this story arch, we all got an unlimited wish. Our knight gained the ability to turn into a huge dragon once per day. Our rogue got a gold castle. Our Drow with like 4 classes wished to know everything about everything. Our fighter got the ability to summon dragons of any kind at will. I, a ranger, got a bow that NEVER misses. I asked for a bow and I got one that couldn't miss.

The next session, he dealt my level 4 character 8d8 damage from a minor enemy without a name even and nearly killed me. Later on, I told him that the bow was crazy and I was willing to get rid of it. So now, I ended up with no wish and got into a fight with him saying that by giving up my power, I'm just getting screwed. Before you ask, the drow died, but the other two still have their powers. So the DM after today, requested that another player give me a talk about the "rule sharking" which was complaining about losing my wish.

So now, I'm in very bad terms with my DM and have been gimped. Aside from this, not once have we ever gotten gold as a reward or a piece of magic equipment. This DM isn't a little kid either, he's in his thirties and has a wife and kids, but he's very immature. I suspect that people will be telling me to quit, but I don't think I could find another group. Is there something I could say to this DM that he wouldn't feel as a personal attack?

There are a few things I don't get...

I do concurr you don't receive many magic items as your post states, or the DM forces you to give in those items, which unless it was a prearranged contract of sorts (someone hired you to get those items) its completely wrong, taking away your items for no reason can't be right, its outrageusly wrong...

About the wishes, it seems to me, he wanted to compensante or balance the lack iof treasure/gold with a single wish (not a bad thing, but not a very good one either) however, did he gived you choices for the wish? or did you made the wish on your own?, because if you only said "I want a bow" not giving any specific details on what kind of bow you want... thats an open door for the DM to give you w/e he wants you to have, when its about wishes you must be very specific, not saying he is right to give you less than to the others, but you should be careful with what you say, as a DM I ask my players "Are you sure is that what you want?" before things like this, however that is because I decide it that way, I have no obligation to do so

In any case, the only way to solve this is talking, leaving the group will not always work, its better to solve the diferences by talking, after all its just a game

[hobbitkniver]

There are a few things I don't get...

I do concurr you don't receive many magic items as your post states, or the DM forces you to give in those items, which unless it was a prearranged contract of sorts (someone hired you to get those items) its completely wrong, taking away your items for no reason can't be right, its outrageusly wrong...

About the wishes, it seems to me, he wanted to compensante or balance the lack iof treasure/gold with a single wish (not a bad thing, but not a very good one either) however, did he gived you choices for the wish? or did you made the wish on your own?, because if you only said "I want a bow" not giving any specific details on what kind of bow you want... thats an open door for the DM to give you w/e he wants you to have, when its about wishes you must be very specific, not saying he is right to give you less than to the others, but you should be careful with what you say, as a DM I ask my players "Are you sure is that what you want?" before things like this, however that is because I decide it that way, I have no obligation to do so

In any case, the only way to solve this is talking, leaving the group will not always work, its better to solve the diferences by talking, after all its just a game

These wishes were from a divine diety, everyone knew they wouldn't end up sucking and they didn't. The guy who got dragons just asked for a dragon's hoard (money). The DM made it better than we expected.

[Darth_Versity]

Dont listen to people who say "Screw the DM over!" or "Rage Quit!", that doesn't solve the problem and leaves you looking like an absolute douche!

Just bring up during the game the simple question "Is there a reason you dont let us have many magic items?"

This should start a simple conversation where you can actually discuss the problem, bringing the character wealth into the discussion. Most people are actually quite willing to talk about most things.

If he is a bit a **** over it and basically says "My game, my rules" then simply point out that its not his game, its a game for all of you and its designed to have fun, and the way he's railroading you is no longer fun.

[Retech]

Who said screw the DM over?

Also, crashing the train can be some of the most fun of an entire campaign. :smallbiggrin:

[Darth_Versity]

Who said screw the DM over?

Also, crashing the train can be some of the most fun of an entire campaign. :smallbiggrin:


Here's how you fix it:

1) Go evil
2) Kill everyone (including plot-important NPCs)
3) Take their gear
4) DM eventually kills you (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocksFallEveryoneDies)
5) Start new campaign with new DM (maybe one of the current players)
6) Old DM rolls PC
7) Screw old DM out of loot
8) Old DM complains and "rules sharks"
9) Old DM hopefully learns lesson and becomes better DM (or he just quits)

^This equates to Screw the DM over in my eyes

[Doug Lampert]

Dont listen to people who say "Screw the DM over!" or "Rage Quit!", that doesn't solve the problem and leaves you looking like an absolute douche!

Just bring up during the game the simple question "Is there a reason you dont let us have many magic items?"

This should start a simple conversation where you can actually discuss the problem, bringing the character wealth into the discussion. Most people are actually quite willing to talk about most things.

If he is a bit a **** over it and basically says "My game, my rules" then simply point out that its not his game, its a game for all of you and its designed to have fun, and the way he's railroading you is no longer fun.

Actually, quit solves the problem quite nicely, and the player has ALREADY MENTIONED that he and other players have discussed the issue with the GM, including bringing up the rules, and that this isn't fun.

Joining a campaign is not a contract for life, there's no obligation to stay in, it's something you do for entertainment. If it isn't fun, quit. This isn't rage or irrational, it's the SANE MEASURED REASONABLE response. You're not getting what you want out of a voluntary activity, it pays nothing and the only benefit is supposed to be having fun, and that's not happening. Why keep doing the same thing and expecting better results?

If you think you MUST stay in the game and declare quiting to be an unproductive "rage quit" then it is in fact HIS GAME, not a game for all of you. If it isn't his game then why are you committed to staying in it and leaving him as GM when he's not providing what anyone else wants? Claiming the game belongs to all the players WORKS because of the fact that the players can quit. Give up that option as "rage quiting" and you have also conceded that the GM can do anything he wants to your character, and there's nothing you can do about it, that means it is in fact his game and his alone. And that makes it perfectly reasonable for him to enjoy himself at the player's expence.

There are plenty of players out there, and most players can GM if they try, they may not be good at it, but they can do it. There is no reason to put up with a gratuitusly bad GM who is bad because he refuses to even try to follow the rules and guidelines that are in the rulebook for him.

[gbprime]

Pity you didn't take the bow that never misses and go kill the troll with the 100 AC, just out of spite. :smallamused:

[hobbitkniver]

Pity you didn't take the bow that never misses and go kill the troll with the 100 AC, just out of spite. :smallamused:

He probably also had +100 to hit and rolled a d100 for damage (our DM has actually done this before) and has 1,000,000 health of course.

[Darth_Versity]

Actually, quit solves the problem quite nicely, and the player has ALREADY MENTIONED that he and other players have discussed the issue with the GM, including bringing up the rules, and that this isn't fun.

Joining a campaign is not a contract for life, there's no obligation to stay in, it's something you do for entertainment. If it isn't fun, quit. This isn't rage or irrational, it's the SANE MEASURED REASONABLE response. You're not getting what you want out of a voluntary activity, it pays nothing and the only benefit is supposed to be having fun, and that's not happening. Why keep doing the same thing and expecting better results?

If you think you MUST stay in the game and declare quiting to be an unproductive "rage quit" then it is in fact HIS GAME, not a game for all of you. If it isn't his game then why are you committed to staying in it and leaving him as GM when he's not providing what anyone else wants? Claiming the game belongs to all the players WORKS because of the fact that the players can quit. Give up that option as "rage quiting" and you have also conceded that the GM can do anything he wants to your character, and there's nothing you can do about it, that means it is in fact his game and his alone. And that makes it perfectly reasonable for him to enjoy himself at the player's expence.

There are plenty of players out there, and most players can GM if they try, they may not be good at it, but they can do it. There is no reason to put up with a gratuitusly bad GM who is bad because he refuses to even try to follow the rules and guidelines that are in the rulebook for him.

The problem comes from the fact that quiting the game, for whatever reasons, nearly always makes you look bad from the other players perspective. It also does 'let the DM win" as he is still in charge and the thorn in his side is gone. New players are easier to come by than new DMs as most people dont want to DM.

In the event that the DM is truly unreasonable then simply asking for an oppurtunity to run your own game for a few sessions should be more than enough to get your point across by running a fair game that everyone has fun playing.

Most people are unwilling to do this however out of either fear of screwing up or wanting the play the heroes, but if a player is not willing to put himself in the DM chair then at no point should they be criticising someone elses game style.

Long story short - quitting solves nothing, its just running away from the problem.

[Tyndmyr]

Dunno really, the DM juust said no and thats it.

See, I have a problem with this in general. Being in the DM seat isn't a license to ignore rules, your players, and common sense.


We haven't come across a single NPC who isn't either an enemy or importantr to the quest.

Wow. Look, I'll be honest. I think you'd be better off quitting and playing video games. I've played video games that sounded like they offered more freedom and realism than this guy.


I know for a fact that his rules are arbitrary, but he would let me jump off the bridge and die instantly. If we do something he really doesn't like, he just says no. If we ask why not, "I'm the DM". Well this would be fine if he didn't try to argue class features with me without knowing anything about rangers. I'm not even sure he's ever read a DnD book. He does own them though.

Next time, if you bother to return at all, ask why "I'm the DM" is a reason.

Point out that the nice people who printed all the rules wouldn't have bothered to do so if they didn't expect them to be used, or even read.


Trust me buddy, I am evil and have tried to kill many things. So far, I've only got is designated monsters. Long before I got the god-bow, there was a troll guarding a path who asked us to do a semi-evil quest for him. I wanted to kill hhim and was told he had exactly 100 AC oh and we were level 2.

Exactly 100 AC, eh? This sounds...implausible. And I don't know how exactly my character would know such a thing. Strikes me as really, really bad GMing.

Send him here. We'll talk to him. It might help. Or, I might just light him on fire. Win/win.

[SowZ]

Dunno really, the DM juust said no and thats it.


We haven't come across a single NPC who isn't either an enemy or importantr to the quest.

I know for a fact that his rules are arbitrary, but he would let me jump off the bridge and die instantly. If we do something he really doesn't like, he just says no. If we ask why not, "I'm the DM". Well this would be fine if he didn't try to argue class features with me without knowing anything about rangers. I'm not even sure he's ever read a DnD book. He does own them though.


Trust me buddy, I am evil and have tried to kill many things. So far, I've only got is designated monsters. Long before I got the god-bow, there was a troll guarding a path who asked us to do a semi-evil quest for him. I wanted to kill hhim and was told he had exactly 100 AC oh and we were level 2.

Nah, that's not okay because he is controlling your character. It sounds like he is writing a crappy fantasy novel and is trying to make you guys follow it. 100AC trolls? Seriously, no point trying to fix it. If you want to give him a chance send him here otherwise ask someone else to DM. If your current DM forbids it, there is nothing he can do about it if the other guy agrees. Or DM yourself.


The problem comes from the fact that quiting the game, for whatever reasons, nearly always makes you look bad from the other players perspective. It also does 'let the DM win" as he is still in charge and the thorn in his side is gone. New players are easier to come by than new DMs as most people dont want to DM.

In the event that the DM is truly unreasonable then simply asking for an oppurtunity to run your own game for a few sessions should be more than enough to get your point across by running a fair game that everyone has fun playing.

Most people are unwilling to do this however out of either fear of screwing up or wanting the play the heroes, but if a player is not willing to put himself in the DM chair then at no point should they be criticising someone elses game style.

Long story short - quitting solves nothing, its just running away from the problem.

If he can find another group that is fun, quitting solves his fun problem. Read DM of the Rings. This DM sounds like that guy.

[Gnaeus]

He probably also had +100 to hit and rolled a d100 for damage (our DM has actually done this before) and has 1,000,000 health of course.

If he did this once, maybe he was confused. Talk to him about why this isn't fun.

If he did this again, after you have discussed it with him, shame on him. Bad DM. No biscuit. Talk to other players and start a new game. If no one else will DM, there are many RPG-like board-games that would be an improvement.

If he does it to you more than twice, burden is on you. He is old enough to know better. You have given feedback. Unless you have some reason to think things will improve (like, DM is back on his hypothetical medication) continuing to play makes about as much sense as sticking your finger in an electrical socket. You know it will suck, so....don't do it.

[Hazzardevil]

He probably also had +100 to hit and rolled a d100 for damage (our DM has actually done this before) and has 1,000,000 health of course.

Don't forget infinite movement so that you could never run away, and at-will hold monster with no save to stop you running away.

[Dream_Merchant]

The DM is doing all the classical mistakes that a new DM does, but unlike others he is not inclined to try and improve. Basically he wants not to be a DM but a director and writer of a theatrical performance using a roleplaying game as backstage. So he doesn't treat you like players but as actors who have only a very limited input in the actual formulation of the story and are meant to flesh out whatever premeditated script he has in his mind.

Maybe if you confront him with this sort of realism he will see the error in his ways. Tell him that you are not actors in a theatrical performance with a fixed script but players in a role-playing game, which even though has some similarities to the former is an entirely different thing.

Forget about magic items and whatnot. He is a newbie (and stubborn at that) DM who is doing many critical things all wrong.

[Tyndmyr]

Alternately, play monopoly with him immediately after a game of D&D.
Randomly and capriously change the rules to take away any successes he has.
When he complains, say "But I'm the banker" and accuse him of "rule sharking". Whatever that is.
Gratuitously hand out bonuses to the other players whenever it would screw over the DM.
Laugh manically.

[Doug Lampert]

The problem comes from the fact that quiting the game, for whatever reasons, nearly always makes you look bad from the other players perspective. It also does 'let the DM win" as he is still in charge and the thorn in his side is gone. New players are easier to come by than new DMs as most people dont want to DM.

So he DOES own you and the game! You don't think you can quit out of some delusionary belief that it will "look bad" to other players!

Silly.

No. Offer to run another game instead if you must, but in order to do that you MUST quit his game, because most people don't have time for more games than they're in.


In the event that the DM is truly unreasonable then simply asking for an oppurtunity to run your own game for a few sessions should be more than enough to get your point across by running a fair game that everyone has fun playing.

Why ask that DM for permision? Seriously? Why?

Just tell people, "I'm not having fun with this, I'm starting my own game instead."

If you are correct in your belief that players are easy to come by then you'll have your own game.


Most people are unwilling to do this however out of either fear of screwing up or wanting the play the heroes, but if a player is not willing to put himself in the DM chair then at no point should they be criticising someone elses game style.

Crap! It's perfectly reasonable to critisize something even if you can't or won't do it. What isn't reasonable is showing up week after week for an entertainment that isn't fun.

And if you're going to globally declare that quiting isn't good then you've committed yourself for life, no matter how bad it is you are stuck with the same GM.

Why? What does this gain?


Long story short - quitting solves nothing, its just running away from the problem.

Quitting solves the unfun game problem COMPLETELY! It is the first and most vital step to a solution. By refusing that step you are putting yourself completely at the mercy of a known jerk!

You can't quit, you can't start a new game without his permission, you are stuck forever. This is stupid, the problem has a solution, and it starts with the doorway. Play games you enjoy. That's not hard.

[Ungoded]

The problem comes from the fact that quiting the game, for whatever reasons, nearly always makes you look bad from the other players perspective. It also does 'let the DM win" as he is still in charge and the thorn in his side is gone. New players are easier to come by than new DMs as most people dont want to DM.

In the event that the DM is truly unreasonable then simply asking for an oppurtunity to run your own game for a few sessions should be more than enough to get your point across by running a fair game that everyone has fun playing.

Most people are unwilling to do this however out of either fear of screwing up or wanting the play the heroes, but if a player is not willing to put himself in the DM chair then at no point should they be criticising someone elses game style.

Long story short - quitting solves nothing, its just running away from the problem.

You seem to be saying that, unless a player is willing to GM his own game, no player should ever change GMs no matter how much they aren't enjoying the game.

I also consider it a fair trade for players in a game I am no longer in to think less of me in exchange for actually enjoying my recreation time. As far as "letting the GM win," what exactly did he win? Yes, he is still in charge of a game that you no longer participate in, but so what? Who cares what other people do with their recreation time?

Also, why would he need to ask permission to run a game? As long as he holds it on a different day than the current game (to avoid being rude), I see no reason he would need anyone else's permission to run his own game.

Contrary to popular belief, running away is a perfectly valid solution to some problems. Like being in a house that is on fire, or a game that sucks.

[Siosilvar]

Quitting the game is running away from the problem, yes. Sometimes that's the best answer. If it's a problem you can "run away" from and never have to deal with again, then it's a perfectly valid answer, and solves everything.

It doesn't make you look bad. It takes a mature person to walk away. Often, it'll wisen up the other players to the potential that something's up.

It doesn't let the DM win. If enough people walk out on him, even without explaining why, he'll hopefully get the message that he's not doing his job properly.

:haley:: You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when when to walk away, and know when to run. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html)
Get yourself out of a bad situation. Why would you stick around something that you don't like, unless you're trying to fix it or are a masochist? The OP's DM isn't going to respond to the first and I assume the OP doesn't fit the second. There'll be other games. Why not find one of those? Might I direct you to the Finding Players / Rectuitment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=51) forum here, if you need a game but can't find another IRL?

[SowZ]

If he did this once, maybe he was confused. Talk to him about why this isn't fun.

If he did this again, after you have discussed it with him, shame on him. Bad DM. No biscuit. Talk to other players and start a new game. If no one else will DM, there are many RPG-like board-games that would be an improvement.

If he does it to you more than twice, burden is on you. He is old enough to know better. You have given feedback. Unless you have some reason to think things will improve (like, DM is back on his hypothetical medication) continuing to play makes about as much sense as sticking your finger in an electrical socket. You know it will suck, so....don't do it.

There was a girl in our group who wanted to try out DMing but was intimidated a bit. Her solution? She played the Overlord in Descent and encouraged roleplaying/would give side quests and such when characters went to town.

[Vandicus]

Have someone else DM. It sounds like the guy isn't even trying to learn. If you can't find a different DM or the rest of the group refuses, I would suggest a number of RPG video games(rather than PnP) rather than continuing to play with that DM.

If you're looking with only a little more freedom, try Diablo. You can actually LOOT STUFF.

If you want something that plays a lot more like what tabletop roleplaying is normally, try Mass Effect, Dragon Age, or Knights of the Old Republic.

[Warmage]

If you are not having any fun and you can't do anything fun (like crash the train), then you should play something else. If it is not fun, then why do you play?

It seems to me that you may need someone else at the table to DM a campaign and let him be a player. Don't screw him over or anything, just play a fair campaign with anoher DM. I have had bad DMs before, which is why I'm usually stuck runing things. The way he seems to play the game, he'll probably do something stupid (like try to rob a dragon at level 1) and get killed.

There is a spot on these forums for PbP that you may want to look into.

[Darth_Versity]

OK, some people seem to be taking my words as "Quiting is for losers, stay at all costs even if you hate it" and thats just not what i'm talking about, so let me clarify.

I assume that the DM and players are in some way friends, maybe I shouldn't assume that but I have yet to meet a gaming group who are not connected as friends in some way. After all, if you don't like these people then why are you there?

With the assumption that the OP and DM are connected as friends (either before they started gaming or as a friend of a friend) then just saying "I dont like playing with you, I quit" is most certainly not the way to go about things. It just puts a strain on the friendship and puts the other players (who I also assume are friends) in a awkward place and having to decide who was in the right and who was wrong. It gets everyone irritated and can ruin friendships, and I am completely against ruining a good friendship when better options are available.

This doesn't even take in to consideration the fact that actually saying to someone "I hate your game and want no part of it" is extremely difficuilt for the average person as generally no one wants to be nasty.

While some people seem to see this DM as a no hoper who deserves to be left alone without friends, I see him as merely someone who doesn't understand what a roleplay game truly is and needs someone else to show him that its a story of improvisation, not a script.

With that in mind I still insist that asking to run a game (yes, asking, just because your trying to remove him, doesn't mean you cant be polite about it) is the best way forward. If you explain you have a story you'd like to run with new characters then I doubt he can find a reason to say no.

If he insists that he is the only DM and doesn't want you to run a game though, I will then admit that he is clearly a moron and quitting is probably the best option.

[ericgrau]

Hand him the random treasure tables to use. He can make his own treasure later but have him learn from there. When some of it is useless junk, you sell it and bam there's your gold.

[Gnaeus]

I assume that the DM and players are in some way friends, maybe I shouldn't assume that but I have yet to meet a gaming group who are not connected as friends in some way. After all, if you don't like these people then why are you there?

With the assumption that the OP and DM are connected as friends (either before they started gaming or as a friend of a friend) then just saying "I dont like playing with you, I quit" is most certainly not the way to go about things. It just puts a strain on the friendship and puts the other players (who I also assume are friends) in a awkward place and having to decide who was in the right and who was wrong. It gets everyone irritated and can ruin friendships, and I am completely against ruining a good friendship when better options are available.

1. The first step is to talk to the DM about why you don't like his game. Based on what Hobbit said, there are lots of good ways he can do this that would improve his play experience, including:
"I don't think that the way that you distribute treasure is fair/fun"
"I don't like the arbitrary nature of the rules in your game"
"The NPCs with +100 to hit that do d% damage are totally bogus and have to go"

This is not "I hate you!!!" It is "I do not have fun in that circumstance and this is why...". Whether your friend is DMing a RPG, playing cards, or a sport, or watching TV with you, this is the normal, appropriate, mature solution for when you are not having fun in a pasttime. Mature responses from the DM side would include things like: "I'm sorry, I didn't realize, I will try to do better", or even "This is the kind of game I like to run, If you aren't having fun, I'm sorry, maybe we should do something else when we hang out".

If you really can't make it as far as "I am not enjoying your game, I'm sorry, I don't want to play anymore" because of social anxiety/fear of conflict, "I can't play anymore because there is a conflict with my parents/softball team/homework/job" is also socially acceptable.

2. Geek Social Fallacy #4: Friendship Is Transitive
Geek Social Fallacy #5: Friends Do Everything Together

If it is necessary to be in someone's D&D game to be their friend, they aren't really your friend. If one person leaving the game requires every other player to take sides, there is something seriously dysfunctional in that group. Players should not be held hostage to a game they don't like.

[Sniddy]

Exactly, but I think it would be a satisfying (and fun!) end to the campaign to go evil and shatter the railroad plot by crashing the train.

I like your style, our DM understands they've taken on the job of herding cats and they do it well - if they ever pulled the shenanigans this DM pulled we'd certainly break her dungeon, again, this time on purpose.

I do think my level 4 rouge needs some wealth love

+1 Blood cut armour, +1 resounding sling, and cats eye thingy for low light vision.....+520 gold ish

(just turned 4, so say high end 3)

[Doug Lampert]

Exactly, but I think it would be a satisfying (and fun!) end to the campaign to go evil and shatter the railroad plot by crashing the train.

I like your style, our DM understands they've taken on the job of herding cats and they do it well - if they ever pulled the shenanigans this DM pulled we'd certainly break her dungeon, again, this time on purpose.

Deliberately breaking the campaign is the sort of thing that ACTUALLY generates the kinds of problems Darth_Versity seems to be worried about.

Friends don't get mad or break up with friends over someone quiting a campaign, at least not amoung even vaguely reasonable people. But friends do legitimately get mad when you go out of your way to spoil someone else's fun for the LoL of it.

[Typewriter]

I'd like to request clarification on this paragraph:



The next session, he dealt my level 4 character 8d8 damage from a minor enemy without a name even and nearly killed me. Later on, I told him that the bow was crazy and I was willing to get rid of it. So now, I ended up with no wish and got into a fight with him saying that by giving up my power, I'm just getting screwed. Before you ask, the drow died, but the other two still have their powers. So the DM after today, requested that another player give me a talk about the "rule sharking" which was complaining about losing my wish.

You took a bunch of damage and nearly died, and then you offered to give up your bow because it was crazy? Were these two events linked? Did he nearly kill you because you were OP, and then you agreed and offered to give up your bow? Or was him nearly killing you just an example of him being a bad DM? Why did you tell him that the bow was crazy and offer to get rid of it and then complain about being nerfed?

I think I'm obviously missing something in this post, because it seems to me that you gave up a powerful item of your own volition and then expected the DM to compensate you for it.

I've seen people say that the DM was punishing you for using your item, but again - you said you're the one who brought it up as being overpowered. I think I just need clarification...

[hobbitkniver]

I'd like to request clarification on this paragraph:



You took a bunch of damage and nearly died, and then you offered to give up your bow because it was crazy? Were these two events linked? Did he nearly kill you because you were OP, and then you agreed and offered to give up your bow? Or was him nearly killing you just an example of him being a bad DM? Why did you tell him that the bow was crazy and offer to get rid of it and then complain about being nerfed?

I think I'm obviously missing something in this post, because it seems to me that you gave up a powerful item of your own volition and then expected the DM to compensate you for it.

I've seen people say that the DM was punishing you for using your item, but again - you said you're the one who brought it up as being overpowered. I think I just need clarification...

Yes, I think that's why he tried to kill me and he thought he had. He actually one shotted another guy with a monster not meant to be special or powerful. It wasn't a crit or anything either. I gave up the bow because I thought it was the right thing to do, but it didn't end well. I'm 100% certain I wouldn't have been allowed to keep the bow because the players were all screaming the entire session from how overpowered everyone's wishes were. And yeah, I'd say that he was trying to punish me, having thought that he'd killed me. I think if he had seen what my HP was, he would have made it hurt me more.

[Dragon Star]

Yes, I think that's why he tried to kill me and he thought he had. He actually one shotted another guy with a monster not meant to be special or powerful. It wasn't a crit or anything either. I gave up the bow because I thought it was the right thing to do, but it didn't end well. I'm 100% certain I wouldn't have been allowed to keep the bow because the players were all screaming the entire session from how overpowered everyone's wishes were. And yeah, I'd say that he was trying to punish me, having thought that he'd killed me. I think if he had seen what my HP was, he would have made it hurt me more.

Wow.

My last game was DMed by an eleven year old, with almost no prior experience DMing. He had only played Hack n' Slash.

He did much better than your DM.

If you want to keep him as a friend, and talking to him about you concerns doesn't work, ask if you can start a short campaign that would be instead of his for a month or so. If you can get someone else to DM, doesn't even have to be you. If he says no, leave. If he is that self centered, he isn't even a good person, let alone DM.

[Andorax]

I'd still like to see this DM start posting here, and learning from the community. If he's still trying, even if he's doing poorly at it, then there's hope that a decent DM can still be salvaged.

Have you tried asking him? Has he refused?