Sniping and range increment help

[PetrossJ]

If an other information is required for your help, please ask.

Goal of the Build
"One Shot, one Kill"
ICBM Sniper
Possible Assassination
Would like to keep a full BaB as much as possible.

Rules:
We are allowed 2 flaws.
Any books are allowed (3.5 and 3.0)
Starting ECL: 8-10

Current Build line (to 20th level) (I don't intend for her to die)
Ranger 4/ Fighter 2/ Cragtop Archer 4 / Deep wood sniper 10

Using the Shooting Star Substitution Levels for Ranger 4 (Champions of Valor)
Cragtop Archer (RoS) I would prefer keeping this PrC if possible
Deep wood Sniper (MoW)

Race: Goliath
Starting Ability Scores: (Before/After Racial Modification)
Str: 16/20
Dex: 18/16
Con: 13/15
Int: 15
Wis: 14
Cha: 11

and yes, I know dex is my main attack skill, a full BaB should make up for a -1. And gloves of dex will help with this.

Feats that I have (currently) planned out
F; PBS
F: Precise Shot
1: EWP(Bone Bow) (frostburn)
F1: Mountain Warrior (RoS)
3: Far Shot
F3: Item Familiar (For bonuses to spot)
F4:
6: Sword of the Arcane Order (Champion of Valor 34)

Equipment that I plan on getting with starting gold or ASAP
Strong Arm Bracers
Gloves of Dex #Max
Gargantuan Bone Bow: (acts as composite to any strength)
Size Breakdown:
Medium size -> powerful Build (L) -> Monkey Grip (H) -> Strong Arm Bracers (G)

Bow Enchantments:
+1, Distance, Splitting, Force
(Can somebody direct me to where splitting is? It was recommended to me, but I have not seen it)

Now on to the real question
First, I have seen a rule that larger weapon have a large range increment (something like 125% per size increase), if anybody can point to where this rule is I would appreciate it.

Second, aside from a static strength bonus (that I will get from a bone bow found in Frostburn) how dose one get more damage on a single arrow?

Third, spot. I need spot. Lots and lots of spot. Any help on increasing this?

[PetrossJ]

Bonus Challenge:
If you can make a good sniper build that could be used in a low magic campaign (all martial, use no magic items, no spells) I will give you two cookies.

[Rei_Jin]

A few rules issues with your intended build.

Firstly, you can't use Monkeygrip AND Powerful Build together. It's one or the other. Powerful Build allows you to use weapons one size larger than you are, as does Monkeygrip.

Secondly, Bone Bows actually need to be made with a Strength Rating (ie, mighty) just like any other bow. They act like a Composite Longbow does, that is, that they CAN be made with Mighty. They don't come with it automatically and at any level.

Thirdly, if you truly want to be able to destroy your enemy at the maximum range, you should get as much Sneak Attack as possible, then cast the spell "Snipers Shot" from the Spell Compendium. Congratulations, you can now make a Sneak Attack at an infinite range, as long as you can hit your opponent and meet other Sneak Attack requirements.

[Flickerdart]

Strongarm Bracers don't stack with either Monkey Grip or Powerful Build. Weapon size has no effect on the range.

[SowZ]

The odd Con score is making my blood seep out of my ears.

[PetrossJ]

Flicker:
I have heard otherwise on strong arm bracers, but I will double check rules. Or I will see if my DM will allow them to stack.

Rei:
I am going to assume Sniper Shot is a wizard spell. Also my plan for the spell slots was to get True Shot (?), +20 to my next attack roll.

Now, I would like to keep a full BaB, and as you can see, Feats are already in short supply. Is there a way to get a sneak attack while keeping Ranger 4, gain SA, and not loose too many feats. (or suggest feats that I can get rid of)


The odd Con score is making my blood seep out of my ears.
That's how the dice fell my friend. I need int for skill point requirements I believe. And my wis for spell slots

[Flickerdart]

Strongarm Bracers, Powerful Build and Monkey Grip have the same text - you are treated as one size category larger than you normally are for wielding weapons - in other words, as Large when you are Medium. You are never actually Large as far as any ability is concerned, and so they do not stack.

[EnnPeeCee]

I had help with this sort of a build a little while back. The intent of mine was to use the great crossbow. Here's what it ended up as, more or less:

Ranger 3 / Thug Targeteer Fighter 8 / Thug Sneak Attack Fighter 1 / Fighter 1 / Deepwood Sniper 7 *not necessarily in that order

With the feats:
Point Blank Shot
Able Learner
Track - Bonus
Endurance - Bonus
Far Shot
Weapon Focus
Crossbow Sniper
Precise Shot
Weapon Specialization
Ranged Weapon Mastery
Improved Precise Shot
Craven
Telling Blow

[Flickerdart]

Great Crossbow gets better range, since you can use a Gnome Crossbow Sight, but it's trickier to get multiple attacks with the damn thing.

[EnnPeeCee]

Great Crossbow gets better range, since you can use a Gnome Crossbow Sight, but it's trickier to get multiple attacks with the damn thing.

Very true, but the entire intent of my build was to stack as much onto a single shot as possible. It really only works at really long ranges.

[candycorn]

Bonus Challenge:
If you can make a good sniper build that could be used in a low magic campaign (all martial, use no magic items, no spells) I will give you two cookies.

Half-Ogre. Far Shot. Natural Heavyweight. Warblade / Bloodstorm Blade 4 / Hulking Hurler 3 / More Warblade.

If you want minimal magic, replace Warblade / BSB with Psychic Warrior, and get the Belt in MIC that doubles carrying capacity, and the graft that treats you as a quadruped. Now you can Expansion yourself 2 sizes up to Gargantuan.

Now your rock is 1 shot, 1 kill.

[PetrossJ]

Candycorn: Love it except for the permanent large size (Half Ogre are large size right?)

NPC: Keep in mind that I will not be able to work at 1000ft+ every time.
Also bows would be better, but you have given me some classes and feats to look at. Thank you.

[SowZ]

Flicker:
I have heard otherwise on strong arm bracers, but I will double check rules. Or I will see if my DM will allow them to stack.

Rei:
I am going to assume Sniper Shot is a wizard spell. Also my plan for the spell slots was to get True Shot (?), +20 to my next attack roll.

Now, I would like to keep a full BaB, and as you can see, Feats are already in short supply. Is there a way to get a sneak attack while keeping Ranger 4, gain SA, and not loose too many feats. (or suggest feats that I can get rid of)


That's how the dice fell my friend. I need int for skill point requirements I believe. And my wis for spell slots

Yeah. You can't always change it. But Con is the one score that I am so anul on being even, despite people not being able to control it. With the exception of Int., you can always increase a stat later and gain the benefits of a new modifier. But con... You will never retroactively get those hit points... ever... ever... ever...

See, it makes me lose my brain?

[PetrossJ]

if it helps anybody, I would like to keep the Crag top archer PrC. Be able to use 15 range increments at no penalty is a plus in my sniping book.

[Rei_Jin]

There's all sorts of ways to get Sneak Attack damage. One way is to use the Fighter Variant from Unearthed Arcana that gives you sneak attack in place of feats. Stack that with a little Ranger (Rangers get Snipers Shot as a level 1 spell) and there you go.

[PetrossJ]

ok Rei, that gets me SA with my 2 fighters levels, but that is only 1d6.
I need the 4 levels of ranger, and I would like to have Cragtop 4 by level 10.
Is there a feat that would allow me to stack fighter and ranger levels to determine SA? (Similar to swift hunter)

Unless Fighter SA is +1d6 for every feat.

EDIT: Looked it up, same as Rogue, so +1d6 every odd level.

[Rei_Jin]

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You need to work out what the maximum range you'd be able to see someone is first, then work from there. 15 Range Increments is nice in theory, but when would you actually be able to see someone well enough to hit them at all, let alone not have any concealment to try and aim through, which completely nullifies precision damage, ie, sneak attack?

If you're looking for a TO build, then fair enough, there's probably a way around this. If you want to pull this off in a game, you need to be aware that 15 range increments is likely to be somewhere around 3,000 feet. How are you going to get the +300 or so Spot that you will need to see something at a DC0 Spot Check, assuming there is NOTHING between you and them?

I once worked out a build that could hit people up to 5,000 or so feet away. It was pure TO though, cos you could never use it in a game.

[Coidzor]

Yeah. You can't always change it. But Con is the one score that I am so anul on being even, despite people not being able to control it. With the exception of Int., you can always increase a stat later and gain the benefits of a new modifier. But con... You will never retroactively get those hit points... ever... ever... ever...

See, it makes me lose my brain?

Nope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#constitutionCon)


If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.

Only thing that you're screwed on is skillpoints.

[PetrossJ]

Touche Rei.

EDIT: The only problem I have with Sneak Attack and Precision Damage, is that it is hard/impossible to add that to every one of my attacks, and it is unable to be applied to many monsters in 3.5

However, I was wrong. Crag top archer 4 gets you no penalties on range increments, but I guess Crag archer 2 (-1 on range increments) will work for longer shots.

also, the the third part of this build, was making something similar to a spot-mancer. That way I could see something two miles away (not literal) and still hit them under normal circumstances. Best case scenario is I'm in a city, and I can climb up to the top of the tallest building, and snipe from there.

This is where Item Familiar comes in, and it's ability to invest skill points. I runt he risque of loosing everything when my weapon is eventually destroyed because the DM was mean one session, but weapons are not destroyed in my group, so I feel safe with it. Also, a Ring of spot +1 (10K gp) would help....

However.... if anybody knows a spell that increases a persons spot check by crazy amount will help me as my DM will allow me to use a trapped ring to boost my spot (trick that is made of cheese, but ok as long as it's not abused)

[SowZ]

Nope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#constitutionCon)



Only thing that you're screwed on is skillpoints.

Well, I'll be. I've been playing this game since freshman year back when I was in high school and everyone I've played with has got this one wrong. Huh.

[mint]

3.0 is go so if you have access to it, turn to page 115 in the Silver Marches supplement (Faerun book). Peerless Archer contained therein is a superb archery PrC for martial characters. I feel confident saying that it has no equal in all of 3.0/3.5. Ranged power attack is among its class features.

I don't think you have enough spells per day at ranger 4 to warrant sword of the arcane order. Because you only have one spell. Consider mystic ranger variant if spells are important.
You would have lvl 0/1/2 ; 3/3/2 a day instead (assuming WIS 14). Then you would actually get some use out of SotAO.
Won't opt you out of any of the stuff you get for standard ranger until level 5.
You could go Mystic Ranger 2 and still get more spells than Ranger 4.
If you feel like it, Spell Thief, Rogue, SA Fighter, Assassin and you'd have 4 SA. I've never built anything like that so sorry if there's a rule preventing this I'm missing.

There are a bunch of problems with sneak sure. All of them have solutions though. Here are some suggestions:


Only sneak attack on one of your shots. Solve with feat from the SRD, originally from the first 3.5 psionics book I think.

Greater Manyshot [General]
You are skilled at firing many arrows at once, even at different opponents.

Prerequisites
Dex 17, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit
When you use the Manyshot feat, you can fire each arrow at a different target instead of firing all of them at the same target. You make a separate attack roll for each arrow, regardless of whether you fire them at separate targets or the same target. Your precision-based damage applies to each arrow fired, and, if you score a critical hit with more than one of the arrows, each critical hit deals critical damage.

Special
A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Stuff is immune. Solve with items like Truedeath Crystal (Greater), also large number of level 1 swift action spells that pierce precision immunity.
One shot and the jig is up. You are really, really far away?


Spot spells I can think of:

PHB2:
rng1: Linked Perception, +2 untyped per ally nearby.
rng2: Crown of Clarity, +2, expend for +8 on single. Competence.

SpC
rng1: Hawkeye, +5 competence and better range increment.
asn4: Sniper's Eye +10 competence. And stuff.

[Darrin]

Feats that I have (currently) planned out
F; PBS
F: Precise Shot
1: EWP(Bone Bow) (frostburn)
F1: Mountain Warrior (RoS)
3: Far Shot
F3: Item Familiar (For bonuses to spot)
F4:
6: Sword of the Arcane Order (Champion of Valor 34)


You can get Far Shot with an item: Horizon Goggles (8000 GP, Complete Mage) or Helm of the Hunter (9000 GP, MIC). Or is that a Prereq? Oh, duh... Cragtop Archer/Deepwood Sniper.

Peerless Archer 3 (Silver Marches p. 115) might be worth a look for Power Shot.



Second, aside from a static strength bonus (that I will get from a bone bow found in Frostburn) how dose one get more damage on a single arrow?


Feats: Knowledge Devotion, Shape Soulmeld: Sighting Gloves.

Items: Wand Chamber (100 GP, Dungeonscape), Lesser Crystal of Acid Assault (3000 GP, MIC), Bracers of Lightning (11000 GP, MIC).

Spells (for Wand Chamber): blade of blood (PHBII), burning sword (SC), frost weapon (Frostburn), instant of power (Forge of War), sonic weapon (SC).



Third, spot. I need spot. Lots and lots of spot. Any help on increasing this?

Shape Soulmeld: Keeneye Lenses, +4 insight bonus to Spot checks.

Mordrei'in (25 GP, Faiths of Eberron). Mild poison (Fort DC 10, 1 Con/1 Con), provides +2 alchemical bonus to Concentration and Spot checks for 10 minutes. May only be available to Aereni elves for fluff reasons. Vegetable matter, so may be available via psionic minor creation.

Chronocharm of the Celestial Wanderer (500 GP, MIC). Reroll Spot check 1/day.

Crystal Anchor of Alertness (2500 GP, MIC): +5 untyped bonus to Listen and Spot checks within 30'. Buy three to cover a 9-hour watch.

Scout's Headband (3400 GP, MIC): +2 competence bonus on Spot checks, 1 minute of true seeing 1/day.

Raptor's Mask (3500 GP, MIC): +5 untyped bonus to Spot checks, immune to blinded/dazzled effects.

Eyes of Truth (5500 GP, MIC): +5 competence bonus on Spot checks, 1 round of true seeing 1/day.

Goggles of Draconic Vision (16000 GP, MIC). +5 untyped bonus to Spot checks, lowlight/darkvision 60', blindsense 30' 1/day.



Bone Bows actually need to be made with a Strength Rating (ie, mighty) just like any other bow.


Nope. Bone Bow auto-adjusts to your Strength rating. There is no additional cost to make it "Mighty".

[candycorn]

Hulking hurler is actually designed to be effective at ranges combats actually happen at... Under 200. But if you use Overburdened heave, it's one attack, and a big one. If not, you can have a full attack with Bloodstorm Blade 4.

Honestly, arrows get most of their power from numbers. You put a lot of them into something. Thrown weapons get the real power, and, once you hit level 21, you can extend the range of any weapon to "Line of sight".

[PetrossJ]

Darrian, first, nice avatar. Loved that game.

What are the requirements for soulmeld items? I thought you had to have some sort of class ability.

And close range spot checks are nothing to me. The Purpose of a +100 Spot check (mo goal) is to be able to see a mile away so I can snipe from extreme ranges.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I know you're pretty set on having full (or close to full) BAB, but have you considered going Cleric Archer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10961.0) or Archerchivist (that is, an Archer Archivist (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3545.0))? You can, with Divine Metamagic, persist Divine Power for full BAB, while retaining all of the versatility and excellence that is Cleric (or Archivist). I've got a pretty awesome Archerchivist around here somewhere, I'll post it when I find it.

You could also go Swift Hunter (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0), if you prefer a less magical solution. Swift Hunter is a feat from Complete Scoundrel which allows Ranger and Scout levels to stack for purposes of Skirmish dice and Favored Enemy, and makes a pretty solid archer, as they go.

You might want to check out the Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0) for more ideas.

[PetrossJ]

Kalaska, yes,, close to a full BaB i wanted, but I am considering of dropping ranger and picking up a level of sorcerer for it's spells.

Also, I know of the Scouts skirmish ability, I have played a swift hunter before, archer kind. Great feat BTW, if anybody hasn't played a swift hunter, go do so, it's fun.

However, there is one problem with SH, range. You can only get your skirmish on something like 30ft. Hence, this is the reason SA and Skirmish damage is not really an option. In normal combat, I want to be able to deal maximum damage from something like 100+ feet away, or further to be out of charging range. (even the 200ft ft charging range of the terrasque)

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Kalaska, yes,, close to a full BaB i wanted, but I am considering of dropping ranger and picking up a level of sorcerer for it's spells.

Also, I know of the Scouts skirmish ability, I have played a swift hunter before, archer kind. Great feat BTW, if anybody hasn't played a swift hunter, go do so, it's fun.

However, there is one problem with SH, range. You can only get your skirmish on something like 30ft. Hence, this is the reason SA and Skirmish damage is not really an option. In normal combat, I want to be able to deal maximum damage from something like 100+ feet away, or further to be out of charging range. (even the 200ft ft charging range of the terrasque)

The Archivist build I mentioned above (which should be around here somewhere /pokes around computer) gets around that with Sniper's Shot, a first level (as I seem to recall) Ranger spell. It allows you to sneak attack at any distance, and is therefore pretty neat (and should get you your desired sniping). Combine that with some CL boosting and Hunter's Eye, and you've got the Sneak Attack to go with it. And as someone previously mentioned, there are swift action spells to get around the whole "Immune to Precision Damage" thing. If you take the CL boosting to certain extremes it will feel like you're playing Shadowrun with all the d6s you're tossing, but that can be a lot of fun. That should get you your desired one shot, one kill.

Oh, and if you desire to get really crazy, there are some spells in Champions of Ruin which allow you to split your arrows into 1d4+1 arrows and turn each of your arrows into 1d6 Str damage (or was it Con, or Negative Levels, I can't seem to recall...) which then turns your sneak attack into negative energy damage, which is pretty nasty.

Also, you might see if your DM would allow you to back-port Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat) from Pathfinder. It's basically Power Attack for bows, and lets you get around the low damage per arrow problem.

[Darrin]

What are the requirements for soulmeld items? I thought you had to have some sort of class ability.


Shape Soulmeld is a feat from Magic of Incarnum. It gives you the basic ability of the soulmeld, usually an insight bonus on a Skill check or two. Keeneye Lenses is the best soulmeld for pumping Spot.

Unfortunately, there are no items that can give you a soulmeld or bonus essentia.

[Jackalope]

Arms and Equipment Guide, pages 4 and 5:


Size and Range: Larger and smaller versions of ranged weapons have correspondingly longer or shorter range increments. Each time you increase a weapon’s size, lengthen its range increment by 25%.
For example, Huge longbows, such as those wielded by ogre mages, have a range increment of 125 feet. Each time you decrease a weapon’s size, shorten its range increment by 25%. A Medium-size longbow in the hands of a halfling has a range increment of 75 feet.

Note the difference in weapon size rules between 3.0 and 3.5.

That said, I'd recommend going for a Composite Greatbow (Comp Warrior) instead of a Bone Bow. It has a 130 foot range increment and does the same damage as a Bone Bow, 1d10 crit x3.

As mentioned, Powerful Build and Monkey Grip don't stack. Monkey Grip states: "Benefit: You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are.." . A Goliath is actually Medium. Likewise, the description of Strongarm Bracers explicitly states it does not stack with Powerful Build: "The effect of these bracers doesn’t stack with the powerful build trait (such as that possessed by the half-giant and goliath races)."

Although if your DM is willing to houserule that they do stack, more power to you I guess.

Personally, I'd recommend something like Belt of Growth to actually increase your size. It's not permanent, but it still grants a boon. If your UMD check is good enough, a scroll of Giant Size (Wu Jen 7 I think) can get you to at least Huge.

[Coidzor]

Well, I'll be. I've been playing this game since freshman year back when I was in high school and everyone I've played with has got this one wrong. Huh.

It's part of the reason that Con damage/drain is so nasty. It can just outright kill if there's enough done, but it also lowers the HP of the creature at the same time, synergizing with other, more stabbing in the face-based modes of attack. And in a way that scales with the creature's HD.

[Jackalope]

For those wondering about how far this character could shoot with just a Medium Composite Greatbow, here's the math:

Greatbow: 130 feet
Far Shot: x1.5 range (195 feet)
Distance: x2 range (390 feet)
Arcing Shot: 15 range increments (5850 feet)

A 10th level character can shoot over a mile. Note that a character can't get into Cragtop Archer until after 7th level, since it requires 10 ranks in Climb as a prereq.

Since the character is a Goliath, the Greatbow is Large and thus has an eventual range of 7312.5 feet.

Due to this likely oversight, I'd recommend doing the ranger/fighter levels, then going into a level of Deepwood Sniper, since a CTA level can't be taken at 7th. This would require the 6th level feat be Weapon Focus: Greatbow of course, but it works.

[Rei_Jin]

There's nothing in 3.5 D&D that says that being larger or smaller alters your range increments with a ranged weapon. Arms & Equipment is a 3.0 book, and thus the rules in it don't apply.

[Coidzor]

Except for that grandfather clause making it a sufficiently grey area.

[Jackalope]

There's nothing in 3.5 D&D that says that being larger or smaller alters your range increments with a ranged weapon. Arms & Equipment is a 3.0 book, and thus the rules in it don't apply.

The character in the OP is using a 3.0 prestige class, thus it's assumed he'll be applying 3.0 rules as deemed acceptable by the DM.

3.0 sources are legal in 3.5, with the caveat that anything explicitly changed in 3.5 should be used instead of what was in 3.0. Anything not explicitly changed is pretty much fair game. While it's true the PHB does list both Small and Medium longbows as having a 100 foot range increment, that can be interpreted any number of ways, including implying that WotC didn't want to penalize the standard races with a lower range increment. That doesn't mean they wouldn't allow a larger increment for larger weapons, and it realistically makes sense that they would get longer ranges.

[Rei_Jin]

Why are you even bothering to argue such a point? It's not in the Core Rules, it's not in the Rules Compendium, it's just not there. Yes, it was in 3.0, but rules from old editions do not apply in new editions. You could just as easily argue that any 2nd edition rule that doesn't have an analogue in 3.0 or 3.5 is still applicable in 3.5.

Prestige Classes and Feats that were not updated to 3.5 from 3.0 may be usable if your DM approves it. Rules are not under the same rule. If his DM says that it is so, then it is, but that's a DMs call. It is not a part of the rules system, and therefore it cannot be used in a TO build.

[Coidzor]

Why are you even bothering to argue such a point?

Why are you?


It's not in the Core Rules, it's not in the Rules Compendium, it's just not there.

The presence or lack thereof in those 4 books is rather irrelevant in this case.


Yes, it was in 3.0, but rules from old editions do not apply in new editions. You could just as easily argue that any 2nd edition rule that doesn't have an analogue in 3.0 or 3.5 is still applicable in 3.5.

Well, no, because there's no grandfather clause between 2 and 3. :smalltongue:

[Tenebris]

Don't know why it has not been suggested yet, but Factotum with Font of Inspiration taken enough times(*) can do insane Cunning Strikes(**), plus at low cost Sniper's Shot spell at will. Depends how DM defines encounter, but... Come on, you shoot them from a mile away, there is no way they can spot you, not to mention fighting you back.

Unfortunately, the only way you can spot your targets is a crystal ball :( Until you DM allows you to attach a scope to your crossbow :)


(*) Well, in this build it would be the only feat you'd actually take. Every time.
(**) Bonus nd6s damage is very nice when n means "always enough".

[Jackalope]

Don't know why it has not been suggested yet, but Factotum with Font of Inspiration taken enough times(*) can do insane Cunning Strikes(**), plus at low cost Sniper's Shot spell at will. Depends how DM defines encounter, but... Come on, you shoot them from a mile away, there is no way they can spot you, not to mention fighting you back.

Unfortunately, the only way you can spot your targets is a crystal ball :( Until you DM allows you to attach a scope to your crossbow :)


(*) Well, in this build it would be the only feat you'd actually take. Every time.
(**) Bonus nd6s damage is very nice when n means "always enough".

For the record, if a Human Factotum were to take every feat as Font of Inspiration he'd take it 8 times, thus requiring at least 26 Int and gaining 36 inspiration points. Holy versatility Batman!