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onthetown
2011-07-28, 08:19 AM
I have a problem, and it's that I can't for the life of me figure out how to make encounters challenging without killing off characters.

They're either too easy or too hard when I totally stat up a character. I accidentally killed the guy once in solo, but I managed to have it look like he was simply knocked out and captured, so that was a quick save. But the kill shouldn't have happened in the first place. If I try to not make them so hard, then the guy just kills off the enemy in the first five rounds.

If I only partially stat up something, or I just go off a book, there's more breathing room and I can alter hp if things are either going up or downhill. But then it just feels tedious.

Make me a player and I can optimize and be strategic like no tomorrow, but as a DM I'm really struggling to present a fair challenge to the player.

Last session actually went kind of okay. He blasted through a bunch of mooks, managed to recruit one of the enemies who was sort of already on his side, and then the epic fight with our recurring villain happened. I got some cool music, put it above a rushing ravine with the chance to fall off, mentioned that you could hear icebergs moaning and breaking apart below, so it was pretty intense. But the enemy himself, I didn't really have any solid stats for, I just went off the stats for Cleric and some nifty spells I found. It was a good fight and he managed to knock recurring villain cleric guy off the terrace into the waters below -- obviously, he'll be back.

So when he's back -- probably level 12, we're at 8 right now -- I need to know how I can make the fight challenging without having either a TPK or too easy of a fight.

Halp. :smallfrown:

Totally Guy
2011-07-28, 12:15 PM
Instead of thinking about it as an encounter, have you tried thinking of it as a setting thing?

I mean if it's a part of the setting then you don't have to worry about whether it's too hard or fair or anything. The players can research what kind of bad this guy is and what he has at his disposal. Don't keep masses and masses of secrets. From there the players can choose courses of actions that they intend to lead this guy to his demise.

If they then die, well, it's not your fault, they chose their path knowing the risks.

If anything you should be congratulated on creating a situation so compelling that the players chose to risk their character's lives to get involved with.

gbprime
2011-07-28, 12:34 PM
I use two strategies in my games.

1 - Death isn't the end. PC's in my game have a tendency to hang around after death, pestering people to rez them. Alternate things like a cursed existance et al happen as well. Point is, they're still there and now they have a subplot to get themselves out of this NEW mess.

2 - Young Adult Antagonists. Take a page from fiction written for younger readers. Conflict does not have to end in death. Even if you're trying to kill the other guy, he may not bother killing YOU. This takes some setup, but is rewarding as it leads to recurring villains.

Cerlis
2011-07-28, 12:43 PM
the trick is to think of challening things, not deadly things.

"Ok, they have a hard time getting a challenge. so i'll give them something with high damage reduction, High spell resistance, and able to deal 30 dmg per hit"

WRONG.

"Ok i'll use a Stupid monster with high AC with all these crowd controling abilities " Correct.

"Ok i'll use this PC class villian who seeks to steal from the party or has some other alterior motives. Hes a powerful spellcaster but only harries the party and the challenge isnt to kill him but to accomplish the goal within an alooted time"
Also correct.

My advise is to think of many video games out there. There are a great many where the goal isnt necessarily to kill a strong monster.

its to accomplish something in a time limit. Defeat him without killing someone else. The enemy is weak but almost impossible to catch up to. Solving a puzzle while running away and surviving.

But just throwing something designed to do only one thing...kill the party...is going to accomplish that goal.

If you want to challenge people. give em a test. dont hit them with a hammer.

Tengu_temp
2011-07-28, 01:44 PM
Are you DMing for a solo player? That might be a part of the problem. A group recovers from mistakes much more easily because they look after each other (unless they're jerks, have good reasons not to or suck at teamwork), and thus it's easier to provide them with a hard challenge without killing them.

awa
2011-07-28, 02:16 PM
ive had best results by giving the monster lots of extra hp wich allows every one in the party a chance to beat on him wheras things like high dr, ac, or sr can leave only the most specilised pcs able to contribute.

one idea i just had is if he seems to be going down to easy free action telport a little bit away and summon some mooks in beteen the party and him possible have him drink a healing potion and then your ready for round 2.

note things like that work only if the players are not the type of have a fit if a monster has an abbility they cant aquire

Tyndmyr
2011-07-28, 03:07 PM
ive had best results by giving the monster lots of extra hp wich allows every one in the party a chance to beat on him wheras things like high dr, ac, or sr can leave only the most specilised pcs able to contribute.

Don't use this advice. HP padding just makes fights a lot more tedious and boring. Worse, if your players catch on, players who have focused on doing lots of damage may feel annoyed, as you've basically nullfied the thing they specialized in.

Instead, use Cerlis's advice. Change it up. Throw unexpected challenges at them.

A giant pile of hp is not a challenge, it's a number.

awa
2011-07-28, 04:32 PM
high damage players are only going to feel nerfed if you increased it way to high so non damage based wins are the only option otherwise they will feel useful becuase it took a lot of damage to kill the monster the thing they specialized in. making sure the big bad can survive at least one hit from every party member wont make the fight tedious.


be particularly careful with arcane casters as final bosses they have low life and most of their defenses are all or nothing it turns into lots of failures followed by one successes where you kill him or a tpk

onthetown
2011-07-28, 05:51 PM
Are you DMing for a solo player? That might be a part of the problem. A group recovers from mistakes much more easily because they look after each other (unless they're jerks, have good reasons not to or suck at teamwork), and thus it's easier to provide them with a hard challenge without killing them.

Yep, I am, but he's hired a ton of NPCs and is using them to his full disposal. He also may be bringing in another character or two of his own to use. He's usually safely in a party with his hired help.

I'm not setting out with a singular goal to kill this guy... I'm just trying to make it so that he isn't breezing through the campaign. He's decided to wake a sleeping goddess and bring her religion back into the world after a major war, and he's up against the single most powerful religion in that setting who are hellbent on preventing this from happening. He has all the knowledge at his fingertips and I keep writing more and more lore for him, so... He's well prepared. I just suck at balancing and related things...

Edit: As for changing things up away from damage-dealing, more to puzzle stuff? He just completed the puzzle dungeon that I built in a thread I posted not long ago, which basically had no combat. He wants bloody fights, and I'm much obliged to give them to him. :smallamused: But I like the idea of making the boss itself a sort of puzzle or something to solve about it, sort of maybe like Shadows of the Colossus?

Acanous
2011-07-28, 06:05 PM
Groups of low level mooks help add to the challenge without being overpowering. Give a big encounter boss say, 10 lv 1-3 mooks (Assuming he's lv 7+) and space them around in such a way that they can defend him (Breaking charge lines, providing soft cover, harrying the party, soaking damage)
Give the mooks a schtick. Maybe two of them are armed with Brilliant Energy arrows, and ignore PC armor class- prioritizing them as a target over your BBEG because they ignore Ac. Sure they only DEAL 1d8+1 damage, but they hit frequently. This usually gets the BBEG a round, maybe two, of extra casting time.

Other decent things to give mooks are Tanglefoot bags, Caltrops, or rope. Alchemist's fire or a flask of acid can work, so long as it would make sense. Try not to give your mooks too many items- a couple items that contribute is much more noticeable and easier to deal with than if all your mooks are carrying alchemist's fire- which should only be done if the BBEG has a good reason and coinage to equip his henchmen.

To keep things interesting, I like to roll a D4 and apply the following:

1: 1d6 extra mooks show up in 2d4 rounds, behind the party if applicable
2: Mooks are equipped with 4 extra mundane items (Flask of oil, Rope, Caltrops, etc)
3: Mooks are equipped with 2 alchemical items
4: Mooks are equipped with a magic item (Of applicable level, nothing more expensive than half the loot the encounter would drop)

Dralnu
2011-07-28, 06:07 PM
This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202586) might be helpful.


General Tip: Try avoiding monsters that can kill your PCs in one attack, either via SoD's or just massive damage per swing. They're not fun. Instead, try to play with weaker creatures and use their abilities to their maximum advantage.

Examples:
- darkvision creatures in dark environments (eg. drow)
- blindsight creatures in areas that give concealment (eg. grell casting Obscuring Mist before attacking with lightning rods)
- creatures immune to a particular element fighting in an environment with that element (eg. a white dragon breathing down its frost breath on the PCs that are engaged in melee with its frost giant minions)
- creatures that heal from a particular attack in an environment with that attack (eg. wizard BBEG tossing fireballs at the PCs that are engaged in melee with its iron golem minions)
- incorporeal creatures in environments that are difficult to move in (eg. water, close-quarters)

Basically, you can ramp up the difficulties of monsters just by playing them intelligently, ie: using the environment to their advantage, getting the surprise round, stuff like that.

If you have a specific idea for an upcoming encounter that you want help with, I'd be happy to help you tweak it so it's challenging but not overpowering.

onthetown
2011-07-28, 07:57 PM
If you have a specific idea for an upcoming encounter that you want help with, I'd be happy to help you tweak it so it's challenging but not overpowering.

Aw, thanks. :smallsmile: Unfortunately, I won't know what I have in store until he tells me where he wants to go next. I build stuff around where he mentions wants to explore, so it's sort of sandbox (but then sort of not, since he's following a plot).

Dralnu
2011-07-28, 09:09 PM
Well, outside of that thread, I highly recommend browsing through the DMG and DMG2. It's where I've picked up concepts of challenge without crazy lethality. They discuss in more detail the idea of environment adding CR, using monster abilities smart, easy ways of ramping up the CR with things like potions (want your barbarian to pack more of a punch? potion of bull's strength, let him find the empty vial and maybe one of the barbarian's spares as loot).

DMG2 is also very nice because not only does it discuss environments, their premade areas are very solid as well.

Jay R
2011-07-28, 10:49 PM
I find that a single creature is almost always way too easy or way too hard. Several mid-range or many lower range creatures are more likely to present a challenge without being instantly deadly.

KineticDiplomat
2011-07-29, 09:38 AM
Tactics. Turn those bags of walking hit points into thinking, fighting, killing SOBs who have a very strong interest in living and winning.

At the micro level, this is mostly game systemisms. What spell, what attack, what target. Nice, but generally this still comes down to statting, so its not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about some sort of organized plan or method of fighting which will challenge the players to counter while still being statistically quite winnable.

Maybe one group of mooks likes to use baited ambushes. Maybe others like to get the party to chase them into pre-rigged traps. Perhaps the others always try for a double envelopment with their powerhouses while weak mooks just ocucpy time in the center....when your party manages to out ambushe the ambushers, force the trap and runs to run into you own killers, learns to deploy their storng characters ot the flanks, it feels like they actually outhtought and outfought the enemy, rather just ourtrolled them.

Larger organizations can have doctrines... the Red King's armry always starts the fight by dropping an anti magic field on the your casters to make them move. Always. Eventually you learn to counter this. After enough counters, the BBEG's troops learn to counter yours...etc.

Tyndmyr
2011-07-29, 11:27 AM
high damage players are only going to feel nerfed if you increased it way to high so non damage based wins are the only option otherwise they will feel useful becuase it took a lot of damage to kill the monster the thing they specialized in. making sure the big bad can survive at least one hit from every party member wont make the fight tedious.


be particularly careful with arcane casters as final bosses they have low life and most of their defenses are all or nothing it turns into lots of failures followed by one successes where you kill him or a tpk

You're missing the point. Slapping on piles of hp is always poor, even the player doesn't realize you're doing it, because it doesn't actually make it challenging. it doesn't give the player hard decisions to make.

To paraphrase a recent thread, more monsters isn't challenging. A child sobbing by themselves in the middle of the forest...now you have a challenge.

Totally Guy
2011-07-29, 11:46 AM
To paraphrase a recent thread, more monsters isn't challenging. A child sobbing by themselves in the middle of the forest...now you have a challenge.

I really want to link to an Oglaf... but it'd get me in so much trouble...

Autolykos
2011-07-29, 03:26 PM
You should have your encounters adaptable. Give the enemies one-use items like potions or once/day powers, and have them use those only if seriously threatened (or just forget about them if your players are having a hard time). Also keep in mind that seriously outclassed/outgunned NPCs can retreat and set up an ambush or call for backup (and even if they just run away, the possibility alone should keep your players on edge). Very few enemies actually fight to the death (if given the choice), especially if they seem to be losing.
Giving your enemies mobility and adapting their tactics can allow you to vary difficulty quite a lot - and they'll think harder about sneaky tactics when seriously threatened, while they might not take a weaker group fully serious.

Acero
2011-07-29, 04:18 PM
You can keep the monster where they are, and just give the player more options. Solo's are tricky, but having only one person can allow a stealthy approach.

Does he/she have a ranged weapon? The challenge doesn't have to be to kill all the goblins, its to pick them off before any of them can sound the alarm.

One got to the bell and now some Bgbear friends have arrived? Lurk in the bushes and try to make a dent into them. By the time they realize where he is, they're weak enough that the PC can defeat them on his/her own.

Cerlis
2011-07-29, 08:25 PM
just have it to where the challenge isnt "he's deadly" but something else.

In assassins creed, for the "boss" of each level, is not a big boss fight. You have to avoid guards that are more congregated then the rest of the level. Sometimes you have to chase the guy down, leaping across buildings and trying to barrel past dozens of guards who are not only hacking at you but tackling you and throwing you around. When i got to him and (with a little to much pleasure, cus i chased the bastard across half the city) if finally rammed my knife in his heart. But i still had about 20 guards after me, and the city on high alert. I had to losethe guards cus my hide away wouldnt take meif i was being followed.

This could easily be simulated by Guards with any of the Imp (trip, grapple) feats since realistiacly many guards should know how to disable people, before resorting to swords. with the target being a Gish (battle sorcerer, or beguilder) with alot of teleports, illusions, abjurations, and defenses (cus he is a coward). Further moving an entire party through a crowded city can be tough...expessially when the guy has some enchantment spell to start a mob (i think there is a spell like that in Races of Destiny) or maybe just a good Diplomacy check ( "Look! those fiends who killed the high priest are back, to slay your loving mayor as well!"


Just make sure he has a good way to escape in case they happen to get a good shot on him before he has a chance to run (abjurant jaunt and protection from arrows should help)

Dralnu makes a good point. Put them in spots where the monsters have an advantage. if they have to worry about stepping into lava, but the enemy doesnt, challenge. If the floor is collapsing, challenge.

Further, if the enemy doesnt outright want them dead you can use other combat options. For instance a giant spider would be entangling everyone. or the thing might be content with grabbing (large creatures have a nice grapple check) a victimand running away. if there is a cave of these monsters then the goal is not to kill all the spiders so much as prevent the spiders from taking away all his teammates. Why should animals fight to the death when they can grab their prey and run?

There should also be many more intelligent creatures with other spell like abilities. Perhaps a Nymph who blinds everyone, entangles the lotand then seeks to steal their magic items. You arent TPKing them cus thats not her goal.but they have to deal with the entangle in one form or another while recieving limited help from friends (depending on how long each one was blinded) and if they fail it just means they have to get their items back, not Death.
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Anderlith
2011-07-29, 09:02 PM
Change the terrain. Have fortifications enemies can run to if they start dropping like flies (Rocks to claim the high ground, small tunnels for goblins & kobolds, palisades to shoot from, etc.). Or have the enemy "accidentally" moved into a disadvantageous place (be subtle with this one)

Cerlis
2011-07-30, 05:41 AM
yes, the whole point of Tucker Kobolds is taking a weak ass monster and making it a challenge through tactics, terrain and traps.

Jay R
2011-07-30, 09:20 AM
I suspect that a large part of this problem comes from not starting at the beginning. If I start with a party of first levels, I know what to throw at them. Their power slowly grows, so what I throw at them slowly grows, but it's not that much bigger than last time, adjusted somewhat for how easy or hard they found the last encounter.

When you start the game in the middle, by letting people create higher level characters, it's much harder to know what they can handle.

rayne_dragon
2011-07-30, 11:50 AM
There's two tips I use:

Fight smarter, not harder - stronger monsters might be more difficult to kill, but that alone doesn't make them fun or challenging in itself. Monsters that use clever tactics, interesting abilities, and make use of terrain are far more effective at making an encounter challenging. There's a reason why tucker's kobolds are scary despite being so weak stat-wise.

Run the encounter beforehand - make sure you have an up-to-date copy of the players' character sheets so that you can play out the encounter on your own time before you send your players up against it. That way you can tweak it to be easier or harder until you have it as challenging as you want it.

Morghen
2011-07-30, 02:13 PM
I really want to link to an Oglaf... but it'd get me in so much trouble...I'd never heard of such a thing.

Holy ****.


I know what I'm doing with FreakAngels (http://www.freakangels.com/?p=23)' spot in my webcomic-reading.

peacenlove
2011-07-30, 05:22 PM
For challenging encounters I used full spellcasters (or any monster with innate spell power). Their power can be variable, and their tricks are known only to you.
1st and 2nd round the party is helpless? Then use the less effective spells, giving the PC's leeway to turn the tables.
In the opposite situation, have the spellcaster take off his kid gloves, if the party is getting the upper hand.

onthetown
2011-07-31, 07:46 PM
I suspect that a large part of this problem comes from not starting at the beginning. If I start with a party of first levels, I know what to throw at them. Their power slowly grows, so what I throw at them slowly grows, but it's not that much bigger than last time, adjusted somewhat for how easy or hard they found the last encounter.

When you start the game in the middle, by letting people create higher level characters, it's much harder to know what they can handle.

We started at level 0, actually. We're now at level 8, and I'm planning for the recurring villain to appear again around level 12.

I'm loving all of these ideas... On monsters and terrain, I'm very inspired to have a fight take place on a giant web, or crumbling floor, or something like that where the enemy is a giant spider hanging from the ceiling, or can go underneath the web, etc...

Cerlis
2011-08-01, 01:36 PM
We started at level 0, actually. We're now at level 8, and I'm planning for the recurring villain to appear again around level 12.

I'm loving all of these ideas... On monsters and terrain, I'm very inspired to have a fight take place on a giant web, or crumbling floor, or something like that where the enemy is a giant spider hanging from the ceiling, or can go underneath the web, etc...

yes, half the challenge can be balance checks and strength checks to break out of the web. also see what spells and gear your party has. if they have grappling hooks and rope, or an entangle spell they might figure out other ways of navigating around the web.

Do you read goblins comic? there is a encounter or two there that would be interesting. There is a part where they are fighting golems and a puzzle that they can use that causes the floor to drop in. of course other pieces of the floor are dropping in. What if there was an encounter where every 5x5 piece of tile was a magic switch. Perhaps the golem is a very difficult creature to kill (high HP. Dm reduction equal to half the average party melee dmg, and immune to most spells. again make sure your arcane casters dont ONLY have spells that would be useless. If so replace spell immunity with high elemental resistance). they seek the treasure and accidentally activate him. It slowly walks across the hall to activate the Defensive system to "obliterate all foreign objects present". Every 3 rounds (or 2) the tiles switch colors (make 3 or so maps of the room and just replace it on the table each time, rather than redrawing it) Each color does something different. Some tiles Create barriers all around the tile (trapping the character) this takes the character out of the fight (unless he can climb, jump or port out, thus rewarding tactical skill and not just damage). however it also creates walls the golem should walk around (i'm thinking he moves at a pace of 2 squares a turn and has rotating blades sticking out of him that "attack" nearby enemies). So if you need to you can take yourself out of the fight to force the golem to walk around you, if you can get out you can activate another tile, but either way the wall goes down in 2 rounds.

All tiles create an effect that manifests in all tiles next to it . you can predict your effect based on the color, the challenge is to negatively effect the golem without hurting your allies. Tiles activate once every 6 seconds (at the end of a players turn)
Red:FLame damage all around the tile
Blue: Frost damage and difficult terrain all around tile(since the golem has a speed of 5 ft it would take 2 move actions to cross one block)
Brown: Walls form around tile
Green tile: Haste effect till the end of your next turn (remember they turn on at end of your turn, so you could move on a green tile and get the attack or movement, you'd get it on your next turn). keep the golem away cus that means it gets a speed of 10 feet per move.
Yellow: Lighting damage. High fort save to avoid being stunned. Automatically stops the golem for one round. Ability Polarized. A creature hit by this attack cant be affected by it again for 1d6 rounds.
White: Cures target for a decent amount of damage (perhaps the middle range cure spell the party healer can cast, thats up to you)
Black: Target loses half his life points (fort negates) if he loses these hit points his next attack permanantly reduces the victims max HP by 5% and reduces all damage reduction to 0 until they leave the room. If it is the golem it gives him a 50% chance of being affected by a spell for the next 2d6 rounds (if he is getting close you want the PCs to have a last ditch effort to stop him. if they fail to stop him with the tiles they can risk their lives to do it the old Save or Die way). This effect stacks twice (meaning two activations makes the golem able to be affected by spells as if he didnt have spell resistance or immunity to spells)

as a bonus , since i think a smart party will easily be able to figure this out. and a decent party will eventually master it, you need an added risk. there is a 10% chance anytime you activate a rune (the golem is immune to this) that you are negatively affected by it (or also affected by it) Flame: you take damage too: Frost is the same and you are also immobilized. Lighting you take damage and are stunned. Earth, your tile gets a wall to, that pins you up against the sealing until the tiles switch. Haste: Super speed, next they move roll 1d6 and they move an aditional 5 feet per point past where they wanted to stop. risking activating the wrong tile or slaming into a wall. Cure: heals the golem as well. Death: target makes a fortitude save or loses 3/4 of his life instead of 1/2
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another encounter could be based on another room from that comic. apparently the opposing teams had to fight each other in a gladitorial (the modern sport, not the rome version) type arena. with spinning bowl like floor. swinging blades. and hanging ropes.

Anderlith
2011-08-01, 06:51 PM
Ettercaps or spiders in a narrow tower that has been gutted. (Only the outer walls & the roof remain) Are really hard to fight at low level