Changing the basic Ability Scores (PEACH)

[gkathellar]

I have a problem with the ability score system. MAD, charisma as a dump stat, a lot of stuff. But nothing stands out to me more than the physical ability scores: they're boring. They don't say anything about a character. Their design relative to mental ability scores encourages non-casters to be unobservant, stupid and socially ineffectual.

My go-to fix is one I've been mulling over for a long time, and is meant to take a note from fiction, where characters are defined by their personalities, not by their strength or speed. Rather than have "mental" and "physical" ability scores, all scores are mental, and their total number is reduced to confront other issues like MAD and stupid score diversity.

So, here are the new ability scores:

Conviction (Con) is a measure of willpower, emotional strength, force of personality and devotion. A character with high conviction is unbreakable, unflinching — and their strength is contagious. Add your Conviction modifier to ...

... the number of hit points you gain at each level.
... Fortitude saving throws.
... Autohypnosis, Concentration, Diplomacy and Intimidate checks.
... your Leadership score if you're using that awful, awful feat for some reason.


Genius (Gen) is a measure of cleverness, cognitive strength, analytical ability and critical thinking skill. A character with high genius learns quickly and can put their knowledge to the task more effectively than most. Add your Genius modifier to ..

... your skill points gained at each level.
... the Save DCs of spells, powers, maneuvers, abilities and similar effects you produce.
... Decipher Script, Disable Device, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, Heal, Knowledge, Open Lock, Perform, Psicraft, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device and Use Psionic Device checks.


Insight (Int) is a measure of perception, adaptability, intuition and mental agility. A character with high insight is light on their feet, sensitive to their environment and difficult to deceive. Add your insight modifier to ...

... your Armor Class.
... your initiative checks.
... Will saving throws.
... Appraise, Bluff, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival and Use Rope checks.


Vigor (Vig) is a measure of athletic intelligence, physicality, mind-body harmony and proprioception. A character with high vigor is coordinated, comfortable in their skin and at ease using their body. Add you vigor modifier to ...
... attack and damage rolls.
... Reflex saving throws.
... Balance, Climb, Jump, Ride, Swim and Tumble checks.

Revised Core Feats
Iron Will
Sheer stubbornness and determination can overcome even the most devious mental attacks.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to Will saves. In addition, you apply the higher of your Conviction or Insight modifier to Will saves and Sense Motive checks.

Lightning Reflexes
Fast? No. You simply move when another man is still thinking.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to Reflex saves. In addition, you apply the higher of your Insight or Vigor modifier to Reflex saves and Tumble checks.

Great Fortitude
Through true mastery of the body, you can transcend its limitations.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to Fortitude saves. In addition, you apply the higher of your Conviction or Vigor modifier to Fortitude saves and Autohypnosis checks.

Core Races and the New Stats
Dwarves: Enduring and proud, dwarves gain a +2 racial bonus to their Conviction score. The same pride can make them foolish and short-sighted, inflicting a -2 racial penalty to their Insight score.

In the Pathfinder RPG, or if seeking more powerful races, dwarves do not suffer a penalty to their Insight score.

Elves: Experience and contemplation grants elves a +2 racial bonus to their Insight score. The weight of the ages can tax an elf's commitment to life however, inflicting a -2 racial penalty to their Conviction score.

In the Pathfinder RPG, or if seeking more powerful races, elves gain an additional +2 racial bonus to Genius.

Gnomes: Clever and naturally talented, gnomes gain a +2 racial bonus to their Genius score. Intellectual fascinations deprive them of a robust physical life, inflicting a -2 racial penalty to their Vigor score.

In the Pathfinder RPG, or if seeking more powerful races, gnomes gain an additional +2 racial bonus to Conviction.

Half-Elves: As varied as their human ancestors, half-elves receive no adjustments to their ability scores.

In the Pathfinder RPG, or if seeking more powerful races, half-elves gain a +2 bonus to any ability score of their choice.

Half-Orcs: From the powerful physique and martial culture of their orc ancestors, half orcs take a +2 racial bonus to their Vigor score. Orc blood is not easily tamed, and they suffer a -2 racial penalty to their Genius score.

In the Pathfinder RPG, or if seeking more powerful races, orcs gain an additional +2 bonus to their Insight score.

Halflings: Halflings come in all shapes (though not all sizes), and receive no adjustments to their ability scores.

In the Pathfinder RPG, or if seeking more powerful races, halflings gain a +2 bonus to any ability score of their choice.

Humans: Humans are too short-lived to have any overriding racial tendencies, and receive no adjustments to their ability scores.

In the Pathfinder RPG, or if seeking more powerful races, humans gain a +2 bonus to any ability score of their choice

Core Classes and the New Stats
Barbarian
Rage: Rage grants a bonus to Conviction and Vigor, and a penalty to both Armor Class and Reflex saves.

Bard
Spells: Bards use their Genius score to determine bonus spells and their maximum spell level.

Cleric
Spells: Clerics use their Conviction score to determine bonus spells and their Insight score to determine maximum spell level.
Turn/Rebuke Undead: Clerics can Turn Undead 3+Con modifier times per day, and add their Con modifier to both Turning Checks and the their roll to determine the total hit dice of creatures affected during a Turn or Rebuke attempt.
Domains: With the exception of save DCs, all Granted Abilities of Domains use their possessor's Int modifier to calculate relevant statistics.

Druid
Spells: Druids use their Vigor score to determine bonus spells and their Insight score to determine maximum spell level.
Wild Empathy: Druids apply their Insight modifier to Wild Empathy attempts.
Wild Shape: When they use the Wild Shape ability, Druids retain their own ability scores.
Animal Companion: A druid's animal companion gains adjustments to its Vigor score based on druid levels.

Monk
AC Bonus: Monks gain a bonus to their armor class equal to their Vigor modifier while unarmored, unencumbered and not using a shield.

Paladin
Smite Evil: The paladin adds their Conviction modifier to attack rolls made as part of a Smite Evil attempt.
Divine Grace: The paladin adds their Conviction modifier to all of their saving throws.
Lay On Hands: This ability can heal hit points equal to the Paladin's Conviction modifier x their class level.
Turn Undead: Paladins can Turn Undead 3+Con modifier times per day, and add their Con modifier to both Turning Checks and the their roll to determine the total hit dice of creatures affected during a Turn attempt.
Spells: Paladins use their Conviction score to determine bonus spells and their maximum spell level.
Special Mount: A paladin's special mount gains an enhanced Genius score, and bonuses to their Vigor score, as listed.

Ranger
Wild Empathy: Rangers apply their Insight modifier to Wild Empathy attempts.
Animal Companion: A ranger's animal companion gains adjustments to its Vigor score based on ranger levels.
Spells: Rangers use their Vigor score to determine bonus spells and their Insight score to determine maximum spell level.

Sorcerer
Spells: Sorcerers use their Genius score to determine bonus spells and their Conviction score to determine maximum spell level.
Familiar: A sorcerer's familiar gains an enhanced Genius score, as listed. Instead of the Alertness feat, you gain a +2 bonus to Listen and Spot checks while your familiar is within arm's reach.

Wizard
Spells: Wizards use their Insight score to determine bonus spells and their Genius score to determine maximum spell level.
Familiar: A wizard's familiar gains an enhanced Genius score, as listed. Instead of the Alertness feat, you gain a +2 bonus to Listen and Spot checks while your familiar is within arm's reach.

Core Prestige Classes and the New Stats
Assassin
Spells: Assassins use their Genius modifier to determine bonus spells and maximum spell level.

Blackguard
Smite Good: The blackguard adds their Conviction modifier to attack rolls made as part of a Smite Good attempt.
Dark Blessing: The blackguard adds their Conviction modifier to all of their saving throws.
Command Undead: Blackguards can Rebuke Undead 3+Con modifier times per day, and add their Con modifier to both Turning Checks and the their roll to determine the total hit dice of creatures affected during a Turn attempt.
Spells: Blackguards use their Conviction score to determine bonus spells and their maximum spell level.
Fiendish Servant: A blackguard's fiendish servant gains an enhanced Genius score, and bonuses to their Vigor score, as listed.

Dragon Disciple
Ability Boost: At class levels 2, 4 and 8, a Dragon Disciple increases their Vigor score by 2. At class level 6, they increase their Genius score by 2.
Draconic Apotheosis: Dragon Disciples increase their Vigor and Conviction scores by 2 each when they acquire this ability.

Duelst
Canny Defense: A duelist gains a bonus to Armor Class equal to the lower of their class level or their Genius modifier.

Dwarven Defender
Defensive Stance: When in their Defensive Stance, a dwarven defender gains a +2 bonus to their Vigor score and a +4 bonus to their Conviction score.

Loremaster
Secrets: Loremasters determines which Secrets they can access at a given level with the total of their class level + their Insight modifier.

Note: This isn't a caster fix. It may actually make some casters more powerful, though it'll also afflict every single caster with at least some level of MAD (and the rules for Wild Shape are going to significantly reduce its power). That said, these aren't necessarily "balance" fixes on their own so much as an exercise in changing a core mechanic.

[Merk]

I like this, although IMO I would associate Con with Will, Int with Ref, and Vig with Fort.

Edit: Or maybe have some options (feats like Force of Personality, Steadfast Determination, etc.) to switch things around

[gkathellar]

I like this, although IMO I would associate Con with Will, Int with Ref, and Vig with Fort.

Edit: Or maybe have some options (feats like Force of Personality, Steadfast Determination, etc.) to switch things around

I debated that myself, but Vigor is about athleticism and physical thinking so I wanted to avoid mixing it with Fortitude, which works something like "make a DC 20 saving throw to ignore your biology."

[Dragon Star]

I debated that myself, but Vigor is about athleticism and physical thinking so I wanted to avoid mixing it with Fortitude, which works something like "make a DC 20 saving throw to ignore your biology."

This always annoyed the **** out of me. Poison is going to work no matter what. Only magic healing or an antidote is really going to help against a substance made to hurt you as much as possible. If someone cuts you in half (i.e. does 50 or more damage to you in one hit), you are going to die. When a creature that is covered with a paralyzing gel touches you, you're paralyzed. You can't just fight it off by eating well. I know this would screw the game, but still...

On topic, I like this. More like a book than a video game, less scores to worry about, and conv makes more sense than con.

[Tenno Seremel]

Willpower that does not affect will saves? That's just weird…

[Cipher Stars]

Willpower that does not affect will saves? That's just weird…


"Will" the save, is simply a measurement of your mental strength and durability, the capability of keeping sane.

Willpower, as I feel he is referring to, is a measurement of your resolve to press forward, the ability to ignore pain and get the job done.

While fitting very, very closely. like gold square next to a copper square. Willpower (again, as I feel he is referring to) can just as easily compare to Fortitude.

Meanwhile the way he has Insight set up just as easily effects Will, the save, while not working with Fortitude.

Possible Solution:
Con- Will Insight- Reflex Vig- Fort

[Tenno Seremel]

simply a measurement of your mental strength and durability
The very thing willpower should be about :)

[Cipher Stars]

The very thing willpower should be are about :)

The way I see it; one is a mental effect, you keep going Despite the pain. The other is where you do not feel the pain.

If that comparison makes any sense.

[Stubbazubba]

Possible Solution:
Con- Will Insight- Reflex Vig- Fort

That's the conclusion I came to when I read over this, too. Seconded.

[gkathellar]

"Will" the save, is simply a measurement of your mental strength and durability, the capability of keeping sane.

Willpower, as I feel he is referring to, is a measurement of your resolve to press forward, the ability to ignore pain and get the job done.

While fitting very, very closely. like gold square next to a copper square. Willpower (again, as I feel he is referring to) can just as easily compare to Fortitude.

Meanwhile the way he has Insight set up just as easily effects Will, the save, while not working with Fortitude.

Possible Solution:
Con- Will Insight- Reflex Vig- Fort

You've got the gist of it. Conviction is roughly equivalent to Charisma, while Insight is roughly equivalent to Wisdom.

The other thing to consider is that a lot of Will saves (oddly enough) have absolutely nothing to do with willpower. Take illusions, for instance: there's no reason Conviction (or Charisma, for that matter) should help you see through a convincing trick. Insight and Wisdom make sense, though, as both are tied to awareness and intuition. My general assumption is that effects like Charm, Domination and Fascinate are similar — overcoming them is more a matter of "seeing through" them and mental fencing than it is brute-force refusal to give in.

That said, a lot of people seem to agree. What about three feats like this:

Iron Will
Sheer stubbornness and determination can overcome even the most devious mental attacks.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to Will saves. In addition, you apply the higher of your Conviction or Insight modifier to Will saves and Sense Motive checks.

Lightning Reflexes
Fast? No. You simply move when another man is still thinking.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to Reflex saves. In addition, you apply the higher of your Insight or Vigor modifier to Reflex saves and Tumble checks.

Great Fortitude
Through true mastery of the body, you can transcend its limitations.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to Fortitude saves. In addition, you apply the higher of your Conviction or Vigor modifier to Fortitude saves and Autohypnosis checks.

EDIT: These are now up in the top post.

[Cipher Stars]

You've got the gist of it. Conviction is roughly equivalent to Charisma, while Insight is roughly equivalent to Wisdom.

The other thing to consider is that a lot of Will saves (oddly enough) have absolutely nothing to do with willpower. Take illusions, for instance: there's no reason Conviction (or Charisma, for that matter) should help you see through a convincing trick. Insight and Wisdom make sense, though, as both are tied to awareness and intuition. My general assumption is that effects like Charm, Domination and Fascinate are similar — overcoming them is more a matter of "seeing through" them and mental fencing than it is brute-force refusal to give in.

That said, a lot of people seem to agree. What about three feats like this:

Iron Will
Sheer stubbornness and determination can overcome even the most devious mental attacks.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to Will saves. In addition, you apply the higher of your Conviction or Insight modifier to Will saves and Sense Motive checks.

Lightning Reflexes
Fast? No. You simply move when another man is still thinking.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to Reflex saves. In addition, you apply the higher of your Insight or Vigor modifier to Reflex saves and Tumble checks.

Great Fortitude
Through true mastery of the body, you can transcend its limitations.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to Fortitude saves. In addition, you apply the higher of your Conviction or Vigor modifier to Fortitude saves and Autohypnosis checks.


Yea, I did like it well enough, but to the minds of most players it doesn't make sense.

The feats reduce any MAD and can allow a character to have two saves fueled by one ability at the cost of feats. I like it, sure at least one person who reads it wont. but thats the case for anything.

[Gustaff]

I've found this topic by accident and I really, really liked it.

I am well aware of the problems of associating Saves and the new abilities, as I gave them a fair amount of time myself. My suggestion is that instead of three different kinds of saves, there should be Four, each one associated with one of the new ability scores... maybe with the same names.

Some work would be needed to determine which class gets a good or bad base saving throw bonus...

I am totally "stealing" this to my homebrew system I am trying to develop :P

[Phosphate]

This is made of pure awesome. Making 4 different saves also seems appropriate.

[gkathellar]

I've found this topic by accident and I really, really liked it.

I am well aware of the problems of associating Saves and the new abilities, as I gave them a fair amount of time myself. My suggestion is that instead of three different kinds of saves, there should be Four, each one associated with one of the new ability scores... maybe with the same names.

Some work would be needed to determine which class gets a good or bad base saving throw bonus...

I am totally "stealing" this to my homebrew system I am trying to develop :P

Well, I'm glad you like it.

Part of the reason I avoided assigning a Save to Genius was conceptual (Genius is supposed to be about creative thinking, learning ability and detail work), but part was a balance concern: Genius is the ability score that determines saving throw DC in this setup. Not just for a couple of classes or a few feats — for everything.

In other words: think about the relationship between Vigor (attack) and Insight (AC). One is offensive and one is defensive. The same is true with regards to Vigor (damage) and Conviction (hit points). Genius is the offensive statistic for saving throws, and everything else is the defensive one.

[Ziegander]

I like the core concept going on here very much and I'd love to see where you go with it.

[Gustaff]

I have been thinking about Genius being the only ability to determine the DC for everything. I do believe that Insight should determine the DC for Spell-like powers and innate powers, and Genius should determine the DC for the voluntary powers...

I'm saying this because, you know, if you have a magical beast with low Genius and a spell-like power, it would have a very low DC AND it is something that the creature can use more with intuition than critical thinking...

Also, Genius could be the save roll against powers that try to trick you (like ilusions)... they can be disbelieved through critical analisys, can't they?

Just my opinions, because I really want this to work nice and fine :P Sorry for my bad english, it's not my motherland language.

[gkathellar]

Spell changes should be up relatively soon.


I have been thinking about Genius being the only ability to determine the DC for everything. I do believe that Insight should determine the DC for Spell-like powers and innate powers, and Genius should determine the DC for the voluntary powers...

I'm saying this because, you know, if you have a magical beast with low Genius and a spell-like power, it would have a very low DC AND it is something that the creature can use more with intuition than critical thinking...

Good point. Magical beasts are sometimes a little bit unusual in that respect, so I wasn't thinking about them. I'll take that into consideration, particularly when/if I get to revising core monsters to fit with this model. For the moment, though, I'll keep it as is.


Also, Genius could be the save roll against powers that try to trick you (like ilusions)... they can be disbelieved through critical analisys, can't they?

It could be, but by design Genius is more about evaluation than Perception. A character with high Genius would be really good at putting together an illusion because they can imagine it as something rich and detailed, but a character with high Insight would be really good at seeing through an illusion because they see the whole world with richness and detail which may surpass what the illusion can replicate.

(Edit: This is just me BSing though. I actually chose it to represent Save DCs because it seemed like a way to make all four ability scores important to all martial adepts.)

That said ... I can think of good reasons not to do four saving throws (increased specialization of a given save makes spellcasters more powerful, for one), but the real reason is that it sounds like an enormous amount of work for an idea I don't particularly care about. I would literally have to go through every spell and every effect that requires a save, reassign every single one, and then say to myself, "Well, I was happy with saving throws as they were, but that seems a little more symmetrical." No dice.


Just my opinions, because I really want this to work nice and fine :P Sorry for my bad english, it's not my motherland language.

You absolutely shouldn't even be nervous about it — I wouldn't have even guessed if you hadn't mentioned it. Your written English is a lot better than you probably think it is, and it's certainly better than a lot of native speakers on the internet.

[Gustaff]

Well thank you :) I am embarrassed :P

Well, I must admit that when I made comments about 4 different saving throws, I had my homebrew in mind (though it is based on D&D 3.5 with major changes to class and spell systems), and I must agree that it would bring a lot of problems remaking spells and figuring out which save works best for each spell.

I took a look at the changes those new abilities incur on the classes, and I thought that they can fix some major problems with MAD (specially in the Paladin case :P). My only rant would be in the changes in the Monk class; shouldn't Insight or maybe Conviction the ability involved in the Wisdom-to-AC and Quivering Palm powers?

(also, I foresee many discussions involving "this ability should be used in this class power, not that other one!") :P

[Ziegander]

The one big glaring issue I can see is that of poisonous natural attacks. A Monstrous Scorpion is mindless, and rightly so, so I wouldn't expect it to have a very high Genius score, nor could it ever even be remotely reconciled that the potency of a creature's natural poison be determined by how clever it is.

[SamBurke]

The one big glaring issue I can see is that of poisonous natural attacks. A Monstrous Scorpion is mindless, and rightly so, so I wouldn't expect it to have a very high Genius score, nor could it ever even be remotely reconciled that the potency of a creature's natural poison be determined by how clever it is.

Yeah, a lot of issues arise when you have monsters (say, oh, a troll Skeleton summoned by the BBEG) that have whacked-out Dex, then applying Insight to that. Just seems wierd.

I do like this, though... Is it possible for someone to come up with a completely revised char sheet for this, and put it somewhere? I'd like to try this out sometime.

[Epsilon Rose]

I really, like this idea and would like to offer a suggestion. But first, a notice: this is being pposted from my thunderbolt (my PC 's running some harddrive recovery stuff and I refuse to touch it till it's done) so please for give any errors. Thank you.

I think you should dump vigor. Your thesis talks about how you want to have things based off of the characters mind and your first three stats do a beautiful job of covering that, but vigor feels like a somewhat tacked-on purely physical stat. What I would then do is make genius responsible for to-hit (you can analyze there defense and the occasional flash of genius lets you find an weaksponse a la crits) and will saves (you can use logical techniques and analysis to destroy illusions and circumvent cumpulsions) . Then I would give con to damage (the strength of your conviction behind the blows) and vigors skills (it doesn't have enough as is) while leaving it fort saves (sure the poisons still affecting you and you'll need an antidote later, but you'd be dammed if you'd let your insides slowly decaying into a black group stop you now). After that I'd make insight responsible for reflex saves (you even say a character with high insight is fast on their feat) and maybe rename it to ingenuity or intuition or something. Finally I'd spread DCs across all three stats. If they were originally set by constitution or charisma they become conviction, Wis becomes insight and into becomes genius. If you still want to force casters to invest in multiple stats than you should make it so that each one has a secondary state that's re§ponsivle for spells predates or slots (I forget which); so conviction casters could use ingenuity as there secondary (because they need to be able to Quickly interpret events inorder to exert their will on them), ingenuity casters could use genius (because they need information to back their intuition) and geniuses could use conviction (because continually running so many calculations in their heads is mentally taxing)

You should also probably consider revising stat generation. Especially point by. And maybe consider creating a series of flaws or traits that would let characters or (more importantly) monsters sacrifice part of a trait in order to raise it higher (an animal could than have a high genius without being intelegent, instead it would mean they have good instincts and nothings interfering with them so they're good at landing blows) (or you could just handwaive it as an abstraction that means slightly different things to different types of creatures).

[gkathellar]

Okay, spell changes will happen eventually. Maybe feats first. We'll see.


The one big glaring issue I can see is that of poisonous natural attacks. A Monstrous Scorpion is mindless, and rightly so, so I wouldn't expect it to have a very high Genius score, nor could it ever even be remotely reconciled that the potency of a creature's natural poison be determined by how clever it is.

Yeah, a lot of issues arise when you have monsters (say, oh, a troll Skeleton summoned by the BBEG) that have whacked-out Dex, then applying Insight to that.

I'm pondering a single physical stat (say, "Virulence," or something) that describes overwhelming biological/structural advantage. Humanoids would pretty much always have it at 10, and it would be next to impossible to increase. It could have pretty broad benefits, and effect things like this.

On the other hand, I'm not essentially opposed to just finding ways to give particular monsters bonuses.


I think you should dump vigor. Your thesis talks about how you want to have things based off of the characters mind and your first three stats do a beautiful job of covering that, but vigor feels like a somewhat tacked-on purely physical stat.

Physical intelligence is a real thing. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences) And, speaking as a martial artist who knows plenty of other martial artists and athletes, I feel totally comfortable saying it can be one of the most defining aspects of a person. People with high Vigor are comfortable in and confident with their bodies, and comfortable with physicality as an idea. They understand the world in physical terms, and have a physical approach to life. If you're looking for a solution to a problem, the high-Vigor guy will be the first to suggest, "arm-wrestle," because it's an area of life he's comfortable with and it's a way he thinks.

[Epsilon Rose]

As a martial-artest and athlete* I can confidently say that I wasn't talking about physical intelegence, I was talking about vigor. All of the other attributes have elements of both physical and mental apptitudes where as vigor aploes almost entirely to the physical (also, the theory of multiple intelegences describes a completly different way of catagorizing things that is, by it's nature as a different system, almost entirely incompatible) . Additionally, since you want to bring it up, the type of physical intelligence you are describing litteraly cannot be tied to such a key attribute. As you currently have it any one who wants to hit with anything or do physical damage needs to have a high vigor; meaning a barbarian with a great axe, a ranger with a bow and a Magellan with rays (ignoring the fact that touch AC is usually lower) all need equally high vigor and are thus, supposedly, equally physical people while, conversely a cat burglar who is an exelent acrobat and intimately aware of his physicality but not trained in hitting people (why make your crimes worse and get them to cause after you more when you can just Doherty and run) would have a low vigor and, supposedly, low physical intelegence. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that while there need to be mechanical stats to let players compare their characters how said stats are expressed should be up to the player.

Lastly, two words of warning on your proposed vitality state:1) creating a special attribute to make npcs better in a game where PC and npcs largely share the same rules can be seen as unfair/annoying and 2) players will find a way to get it (what's that polymorph? the spell casters are making the fighter cry even more?! Why our dam will be able to power. The whole Midwest at this rate!).

*While I am both a martial arrest and athlete this deduction is probably more a result of my training in the English language (and, you know, actually having written it:smallamused:)

[gkathellar]

... while, conversely a cat burglar who is an exelent acrobat and intimately aware of his physicality but not trained in hitting people (why make your crimes worse and get them to cause after you more when you can just Doherty and run) would have a low vigor and, supposedly, low physical intelegence.

Not if he wanted to get a decent ability modifier to most of the Cat Burglar skills. You'll note they're almost all (minus Hide/Move Silently) under Vigor.

With that said, let me just say this isn't something I'm willing to change my mind on. I think three stats is too few, and I like the four I have very much.


Lastly, two words of warning on your proposed vitality state:1) creating a special attribute to make npcs better in a game where PC and npcs largely share the same rules can be seen as unfair/annoying and 2) players will find a way to get it (what's that polymorph? the spell casters are making the fighter cry even more?! Why our dam will be able to power. The whole Midwest at this rate!).

Gah. Wasn't thinking about that, but you're right. Back to the drawing board ...

(For reference, polymorph isn't going to change any ability scores in this model, just like wild shape. But I wouldn't have an excuse with a Virulence stat.)

[jiriku]

What would be the desired impact on gameplay created by implementing this?

[Straybow]

At some point you're gonna say, "How much can this guy carry/lift/push/drag?" Now you no longer have a clear differentiation between the 240 lb linebacker and the nimble gymnast with the same vigor score.

The reason why these games are called "role-playing" is that the character is what you play, the stats are the stage props to which you are limited. Changing up the stats just means swapping one set of weaknesses in the mechanics for another. Condensing six stats into four doesn't improve the situation.

If you don't like how players use Cha as dump stat, then the GM should find ways to make Cha more useful even if not through standard mechanisms of skills, class features and saving throws. It seems d20 eliminated the old Cha-based reaction table. That alone could do it.

[Grinner]

If you don't like how players use Cha as dump stat, then the GM should find ways to make Cha more useful even if not through standard mechanisms of skills, class features and saving throws. It seems d20 eliminated the old Cha-based reaction table. That alone could do it.

It seems like he's trying to discourage ridiculous optimization.

[Amechra]

So, I would like to ask...

How do you convert stuff over generically?

[gkathellar]

Mods, I'd love it if you didn't lock this thread for necromancy. This is a project I keep meaning to come back to. Still if you gotta, you gotta.


So, I would like to ask...

How do you convert stuff over generically?

Conversion is pretty easy to do on the fly, but it ultimately comes down to judgment calls - there's no hard-and-fast conversion rule which would actually be functional. That's part of why I keep intending to come back to this - I like the idea, but it clearly needs further implementation.


It seems like he's trying to discourage ridiculous optimization.

Not really. As I state, this is neither a caster fix nor a general balance fix. It has some small effects toward that end, but this was mostly an experiment in recalibrating the relationship between mechanics and character. I'd like to think it turned out pretty well.


Now you no longer have a clear differentiation between the 240 lb linebacker and the nimble gymnast with the same vigor score.

Of course not. That differentiation isn't what these ability scores are meant to highlight. Also, seriously, gymnasts? Pro male gymnasts have shoulder muscles the size of my head, dude.


The reason why these games are called "role-playing" is that the character is what you play, the stats are the stage props to which you are limited.

Gosh, I get condescension with my potential thread-lock? I'm of the opinion that mechanics and roleplay should have as strong and as positive a relationship as possible. In establishing the stats differently, I wanted to emphasize different things that I feel have a more direct correspondence to 3.5's roleplaying experience, in addition to modifying mechanical balance.

(Also I'm fairly certain that they're called roleplaying games because you play a role as a component of a game. IIRC the term has roots in talk-therapy exercises.)


Changing up the stats just means swapping one set of weaknesses in the mechanics for another. Condensing six stats into four doesn't improve the situation.

No. Part of the reason I cut down the number of stats is that if you look at them, there actually aren't enough things that ability scores do to justify six of them. Paring them down to four allows for a relatively even spread of features across all six scores.


If you don't like how players use Cha as dump stat, then the GM should find ways to make Cha more useful even if not through standard mechanisms of skills, class features and saving throws. It seems d20 eliminated the old Cha-based reaction table. That alone could do it.

Ah yes, the old "if you can find a way around a problem, it's not a problem," line of argument. While Charisma-as-dumpstat does annoy me, you'll note my thesis states very clearly that this isn't my real complaint. My real complaint is, again, that the physical ability scores are boring. Thus, the fix seen above.

Did you seriously necro this thread just to disagree with its essential premises?

[Straybow]

Did you seriously necro this thread just to disagree with its essential premises? Yes and no... No, in that I followed the sig link and didn't pay attention to the date (my bad). Yes, in that I don't think condensing three physical stats into one quasi-physical stat is going to improve an already poor model of physicality (hit points, armor class, saving throws, etc).

For example, you've forced everyone who wants hit point bonus for survivability to play somebody with high conviction and personal devotion. Can't be a tough with no loyalty, or a "take what you can and give nothing back" pirate. You've forced everyone who wants AC bonus to play somebody insightful and strong-willed.

I don't even really see the connection between will save and insight, but you've backed yourself into a corner since you don't want two saving throws dependent on one stat.

You missed my point about football player vs gymnast. While their physicality and mind-body may be comparable they are totally different. Ask the 160 lb gymnast to lift and carry 400 lb, he can't. Ask the 240 lb football player to hang from rope rings for an extended time, he can't. The tasks can't be differentiated in your system without adding another stat to differentiate the mountain of muscle from the compact dynamo with the same vigor.

One of my friends was a sports medicine practitioner who worked with Olympic level gymnasts. He said there were many kids who had the skill to compete, but their bodies weren't tough enough to take the strain of training and performing. They'd by plagued by one minor injury after another; the ankle, then the shoulder, then something else. That's Con differentiating from Dex.

You can't tell me someone who has the drive to stick with that kind of discipline doesn't have willpower and devotion. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

The same can be said for some very strong people who don't have the physical resilience to take the hits and stay healthy enough to play football at the highest level. Almost every RPG distinguishes between raw strength, dexterity or agility, and endurance or toughness. They do so because those purely physical distinctions emerge.

The worst part, IMO, is this boxes in the players, and not with a higher order mechanic like a class requirement or limitation, but with the lowest order mechanic of the game.

There's a reason why fiction focuses on personality. The fiction writer isn't forced to make a workable mechanic to model the character's actions. If he says Shmo swings his sword and hits, but it glances off the armor, that's what happens. If he says Shmo shrugs off the pain of a hit, that's what happens. No HP, no AC, no saves.