[3.5] Fire-Breathing Kitties!

[Reprimand]

I'm trying to play a Tibbit Dragonfire Adept (The idea of a firebreathing kitten is just too funny to pass up.) However my DM ruled that because a tibbit is techiquely a monsterous humanoid (Shapeshifter) and because of the way the alternate form special quality on the SRD reads, I cannot use my breath-weapon in alternate form. I was thinking about making a custom feat similar to a natural spell that would allow me to use my invocations and my breath weapon in alternate form.

Would this be too unbalancing? It's mostly just for flavor but I am wondering if this would be too powerful or sneaky.

Opinions?

On a side note any good DFA advice or dragon flavored feats would nice as well.

[Amnestic]

However my DM ruled that because a tibbit is techiquely a monsterous humanoid (Shapeshifter) and because of the way the alternate form special quality on the SRD reads, I cannot use my breath-weapon in alternate form.

:smallconfused: Uh...why? Your breath weapon isn't an aspect of your original (humanoid) form, it's an aspect of your class. It's a Su ability which only requires a mouth to use - something kitty form has.

I wouldn't consider a feat allowing you to use invocations while in kitty form unbalancing.

As for DFA feats in general: Entangling Exhalation (Races of the Dragon) is the biggest one to get. It basically 'makes' the class.

Taking Power Surge (Dragon Magazine #314) to let you use Metabreath feats (Draconomicon) isn't a bad way to spend your feats either.

[Reprimand]

Alternate Form
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:

•The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
•The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
•The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
•The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
•The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.
•The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
•The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.
•Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
•The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
•The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
•Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

Because I'm a shape shifter I have this quality by default. I cannot retain my breath weapon while in an alternate form. Because I lose breath weapons and gaze attacks.

[Amnestic]

•The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.


I've bolded the important section. Your breath weapon isn't part of your form. Humanoid Tibbits don't normally get a breath weapon which kitty Tibbits then lose. Dragonfire Adepts don't lose their breath weapon when using the Humanoid Shape Invocation because their breath weapon is not part of your form. It exists independent of it, and the only necessary aspect of your form to utilise a breath weapon is having a mouth (or breath, I suppose, but you understand what I mean).

[Reprimand]

Ah, that's a good point I'll bring this to my DM's attention thanks for the help!

And I can qualify for meta-breath feats?

[Amnestic]

Ah, that's a good point I'll bring this to my DM's attention thanks for the help!

And I can qualify for meta-breath feats?

There are two major ways for Dragonfire Adepts to qualify for metabreath feats. The first is by getting a second breath weapon with a use/x rounds qualifier. This can be done either with Half Dragon (I think you need a feat too? I forget) template or with the Dragonborn template - neither of which you probably want as a Tibbit.

The second major way is by taking the Power Surge feat from Dragon Magazine #314. You can apply it to your breath weapon to get a few bonuses and also give it a one round cooldown. Having this feat qualifies you to take Metabreath feats, which can be pretty damn useful.

[Reprimand]

Hm I'll have to find that on a pdf then, thanks for the help. Have cookie! =]

-Gives you a cookie-

[Amnestic]

Thank you, and you're welcome. Enjoy your fire breathing kitty :smallcool:

[Siosilvar]

There are two major ways for Dragonfire Adepts to qualify for metabreath feats. The first is by getting a second breath weapon with a use/x rounds qualifier. This can be done either with Half Dragon (I think you need a feat too? I forget) template or with the Dragonborn template - neither of which you probably want as a Tibbit.

The second major way is by taking the Power Surge feat from Dragon Magazine #314. You can apply it to your breath weapon to get a few bonuses and also give it a one round cooldown. Having this feat qualifies you to take Metabreath feats, which can be pretty damn useful.

The third way is for your DM to let you take metabreath feats "just because". I suggest that if your DM uses this option the metabreath cooldown increase applies to your whole breath weapon, not just whatever breath effect you used.

That's the way the DM played it the one time I got the OK on metabreath feats, anyway. It didn't seem overpowering and I used the DFA's invocations a lot more than I otherwise would have.

[Cerlis]

thats a good idea Sio. I cant think of it but i think there is some other instance of applying something to something that gives it a cooldown when it didnt have one . i dont know

Though for this particular player i'd ask she gauge how lenient her DM is. shes about to go tell him he's wrong. And whether or not he understands, bringing up a homebrewn ability that seems somewhat cheesy (only somewhat) might sour his mood further

In the way of feats like Power attack, and Wild talent, it seems fair that she should have a "feat that allows you to take a certian subset of feats"

[Reprimand]

thats a good idea Sio. I cant think of it but i think there is some other instance of applying something to something that gives it a cooldown when it didnt have one . i dont know

Though for this particular player i'd ask she gauge how lenient her DM is. shes about to go tell him he's wrong. And whether or not he understands, bringing up a homebrewn ability that seems somewhat cheesy (only somewhat) might sour his mood further

In the way of feats like Power attack, and Wild talent, it seems fair that she should have a "feat that allows you to take a certian subset of feats"

5 levels in dragon shaman would work I suppose but that seems counter intuative.

He's quite reasonable he's just very by the books.

[NeoSeraphi]

First of all, Reprimand, let me say, Welcome to DFA is Win club. Your T-Shirt is in the mail.

Secondly, let me say, Welcome to the Fire-Breathing Kitties is Win club. Your T-Shirt is in the mail.

I'm also a bit of a rules lawyer when I DM, simply because I think that D&D is a game where people should be allowed to customize their characters however they want, but the rules exist in order to guide you on how to do that. Still, the Dragonfire Adept is a class I take exception to.

Generally speaking, all you need for a breath weapon is a mouth and a Constitution score. The reason that alternate form removes breath weapons is so that us DMs can't have silver dragons walk into an evil town disguised as pirates and burn the place down. (Yes, believe it or not, WotC actually did something to help the players out)

I'm glad they included the Humanoid Shape invocation, as that one exception to the rule set the standard. A class that grants a breath weapon is different from a race that grants a breath weapon. And there's certainly nothing too unbalancing about letting you breathe fire while you're a cat. (You're playing a sub-optimal race for flavor. If I was your DM, I'd reward you for that)

Now on to the real reason I'm posting, the discussion about meta-breath effects on the Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon. Power Surge is an excellent way of accomplishing this, but if that's not the case I have another suggestion:

Approach your DM and ask if it's possible for you to take Metabreath feats, but impose a special rule that whenever you alter your breath weapon to use a Metabreath feat, you impose a default cooldown of 1d4 rounds (before the Metabreath feat adds to it). That way, you're just like a dragon when you alter your breath weapon. Promise not to take Recover Breath or Quicken Breath (you really only want Maximize and Entangling Exhalation anyway) and you're golden.

[Chaosblade]

Slightly unrelated, but you could also ask for your DM to make the Tibbit a +0 LA by making it Humanoid (Shapeshifter), like what they did to Hengeyokai.

[Amnestic]

Slightly unrelated, but you could also ask for your DM to make the Tibbit a +0 LA by making it Humanoid (Shapeshifter), like what they did to Hengeyokai.

Tibbits are +0 LA o.O

[Chaosblade]

Disregard me. I've apparently inhaled too much black powder.

[Reprimand]

First of all, Reprimand, let me say, Welcome to DFA is Win club. Your T-Shirt is in the mail.

Secondly, let me say, Welcome to the Fire-Breathing Kitties is Win club. Your T-Shirt is in the mail.

I'm also a bit of a rules lawyer when I DM, simply because I think that D&D is a game where people should be allowed to customize their characters however they want, but the rules exist in order to guide you on how to do that. Still, the Dragonfire Adept is a class I take exception to.

Generally speaking, all you need for a breath weapon is a mouth and a Constitution score. The reason that alternate form removes breath weapons is so that us DMs can't have silver dragons walk into an evil town disguised as pirates and burn the place down. (Yes, believe it or not, WotC actually did something to help the players out)

I'm glad they included the Humanoid Shape invocation, as that one exception to the rule set the standard. A class that grants a breath weapon is different from a race that grants a breath weapon. And there's certainly nothing too unbalancing about letting you breathe fire while you're a cat. (You're playing a sub-optimal race for flavor. If I was your DM, I'd reward you for that)

Now on to the real reason I'm posting, the discussion about meta-breath effects on the Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon. Power Surge is an excellent way of accomplishing this, but if that's not the case I have another suggestion:

Approach your DM and ask if it's possible for you to take Metabreath feats, but impose a special rule that whenever you alter your breath weapon to use a Metabreath feat, you impose a default cooldown of 1d4 rounds (before the Metabreath feat adds to it). That way, you're just like a dragon when you alter your breath weapon. Promise not to take Recover Breath or Quicken Breath (you really only want Maximize and Entangling Exhalation anyway) and you're golden.

Holy crap I get T-Shirts?!

Why would I be rewarded for playing a sub-optimal race? The class itself is really powerful if used right. The tibbit is also a pretty nice tactical choice tiny size in early game can be really powerful.

[Fouredged Sword]

Sit on the wizards sholder and have him chant before you let loose!

[Reprimand]

Sit on the wizards sholder and have him chant before you let loose!

Actually I'll be sharing a space with our knight and he likes to use a tower shield so I get permanent cover while spewing out 30ft cones of breath at people.

Not to mention his shield ally ability!

[dextercorvia]

Actually I'll be sharing a space with our knight and he likes to use a tower shield so I get permanent cover while spewing out 30ft cones of breath at people.

Not to mention his shield ally ability!

I'm not sure how that would work...

[Reprimand]

I'm not sure how that would work...

In cat form I'm tiny size which allows me to share a space with larger creatures.

[dextercorvia]

In cat form I'm tiny size which allows me to share a space with larger creatures.

I meant the bit about using other people's equipment for cover, and being able to use a breath weapon while under (presumably total -- since you mentioned tower shield) cover.

[Reprimand]

Ah, that was a DM ruling since I was sharing a space with him he was allowed to use the tower shield to cover both of us.

[LordShotGun]

Actually I'll be sharing a space with our knight and he likes to use a tower shield so I get permanent cover while spewing out 30ft cones of breath at people.

Not to mention his shield ally ability!

:smallbiggrin: Well that just made my day.

[Reprimand]

:smallbiggrin: Well that just made my day.

Glad I could help!

Anyone have any more Dragon flavored feats or traits or anything?

[Amnestic]

Glad I could help!

Anyone have any more Dragon flavored feats or traits or anything?

Well if you haven't yet, you should probably take a peak at the DFA Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook). They have a few options for feats. You may want to consider some Binder or Incarnum feats for the passive bonuses they offer, since your actions will mostly be occupied by breathing fire or laying down invocations.

Also, Baleful Geas. You want to get a ruling from your DM about it. Invocations as a rule are standard actions, but the line as the spell in the Invocation description could imply that it has a ten minute cast. If it's a standard action, it's really freaking good. If it's ten minutes, it's almost entirely useless.

[Reprimand]

I was wondering about the Geas Effects as well, if it's a standard action it's really powerful...

"Find me a left handed smoke shifter! Until you do your not allowed to do anything else besides eat and sleep."

EDIT: I forgot about breathing lol!

[dextercorvia]

There is a 5th/8th level spell in the Spell Compendium called (Greater)Stunning Breath. It is an instantaneous spell that gives your breath weapon a stunning rider effect. Instantaneous spell effects don't go away after the spell is cast, so your Breath Weapon is forever changed. You should be able to afford a scroll of the 5th level version by level 3-4. UMD one today.

[Reprimand]

I'd probably just go for the 5th level version a save againist stunning on every use on my Breath is pretty dang nice.

Does anyone know what book that level draining meta-breath feat is from? I think it's like "enervating breath"

Thanks.

[mootoall]

Remember to pick up a Dragon Spirit Cincture and a masterwork arrow with a few Least Energy Assault Crystals on them! Wield it as an improvised weapon and enjoy your increased DC! Then ask your DM if you can increase it to a Greater Dragon Spirit Cincture, a la the Chasubel of Fell Power!

[dextercorvia]

I'd probably just go for the 5th level version a save againist stunning on every use on my Breath is pretty dang nice.

Does anyone know what book that level draining meta-breath feat is from? I think it's like "enervating breath"

Thanks.

I can't find anything here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats&tablefilter=breath) that fits that description. That list is exhaustive. I filtered for breath.

[Reprimand]

I can't find anything here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats&tablefilter=breath) that fits that description. That list is exhaustive. I filtered for breath.

Oh well i'm not worried about it, dealing 2d4 negative levels at level 8 with a weapon that can't miss IS pretty broken.

I just got done looking at the Dragon spirit cincture which is easily a DFA staple for me now! +1d6 damage and +1 DC for 2000gp!

[tyckspoon]

I'd probably just go for the 5th level version a save againist stunning on every use on my Breath is pretty dang nice.

Does anyone know what book that level draining meta-breath feat is from? I think it's like "enervating breath"

Thanks.

While the spell technically does that, I wouldn't try it on your DM- like the similar text on Psionic Lion's Charge it's almost certainly an accident of the designer not thinking through the implications of instantaneous.. or, in this instance, not properly proofing their copy-paste- all/most of the other metabreath spells were rewritten as Duration: 1 round from the original Instantaneous in the Draconomicon. Enervating Breah is one of the metabreath spells, btw- 9th level in the Spell Compendium.

[NeoSeraphi]

Wow, that's the second person I've met on this forum who decided to signature one of my lines. Go me.

Anyway, when I said "sub-optimal" I meant "doesn't get a Constitution bonus". The Tiny size is awesome mechanically speaking, but not as great for a DFA as say, a Dragonborn Mongrelfolk. (And the "reward" I mentioned was simply overlooking the haziness about alternate form and just letting you keep your breath weapon)

The problem with getting a scroll of stunning breath is it requires a breath weapon as a focus to cast the spell, and that focus must be provided by the crafter as well as the recipient, iirc. So, you would have to get the scroll from either a dragon sorcerer or a normal wiz/sorc who happened to have a breath weapon.

[Reprimand]

Ah, play still that's better than what I'm getting now, I may have to use up a feat slots simply to use my Class abilities in Feline Form.

D:

[mootoall]

I can't find anything here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats&tablefilter=breath) that fits that description. That list is exhaustive. I filtered for breath.

You must've done something wrong, 'cause here it is: http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=5092

[NeoSeraphi]

Ah, play still that's better than what I'm getting now, I may have to use up a feat slots simply to use my Class abilities in Feline Form.

D:

Sorry to hear that, but maybe if you ask nicely, your DM will combine the "can breath as kitteh" and the "I can take Metabreath feats" into one feat for you.

Edit: @mootoall He didn't do it wrong, Reprimand asked about Enervating Breath as a feat instead of a spell.

[Reprimand]

Alright my DM has rejected my Feat and my alternate form having breath weapon all together. Does anyone know where I can get a template for an awakened animal?

Hopefully a Cat.

I think one of the Dragon Magazines had something about one but I can't find it.

Mostly I'm just looking for ECL or LA so I can figure out my current level.

[Amnestic]

Take the Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) spell, apply to Cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm). Get: Awakened Cat.

The two racial HD are kind of annoying. Wouldn't have any level adjustment, so you'd be ECL 3 at Level 1.

You should point your DM in the direction of this thread if you haven't already. Perhaps seeing other people point to direct rules on why you should be able to breathe fire might help?

[Darrin]

Alright my DM has rejected my Feat and my alternate form having breath weapon all together. Does anyone know where I can get a template for an awakened animal?


Anthropomorphic cat is already detailed in Savage Species p. 216:

Small size, 30' speed
Str –4, Dex +2, Con +0, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +0
Favored Class: Rogue
LA +1

Hengeyokai (Oriental Adventures) also have a cat form and a hybrid form. Cat stats are Tiny size, Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Speed 30'. Hybrid form is Dex +2, Wis -2, +4 bonus on Balance checks. OA originally lists them as LA +1, but Dragon #318 updated OA to 3.5, changed their type to humanoid with the shapeshifter subtype, and removed the LA. But you'd have the same problems with alternate form that you have with the tibbit.

[NeoSeraphi]

Anthropomorphic cat is already detailed in Savage Species p. 216:

Small size, 30' speed
Str –4, Dex +2, Con +0, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +0
Favored Class: Rogue
LA +1

Hengeyokai (Oriental Adventures) also have a cat form and a hybrid form. Cat stats are Tiny size, Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Speed 30'. Hybrid form is Dex +2, Wis -2, +4 bonus on Balance checks. OA originally lists them as LA +1, but Dragon #318 updated OA to 3.5, changed their type to humanoid with the shapeshifter subtype, and removed the LA. But you'd have the same problems with alternate form that you have with the tibbit.

Savage Species is unfortunately 3.0, so I don't think the Anthro cat would work...

[Reprimand]

Take the Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) spell, apply to Cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm). Get: Awakened Cat.

The two racial HD are kind of annoying. Wouldn't have any level adjustment, so you'd be ECL 3 at Level 1.

You should point your DM in the direction of this thread if you haven't already. Perhaps seeing other people point to direct rules on why you should be able to breathe fire might help?

I have pointed him in the direction of the thread but he didn't seem to change his verdict on alternate forms w/ breath weapon and gaze attacks.

An awakened animal has an ECL of 3?

Monster Characters get no love! D:

The problem with the hybrid form of the oriental adventures race is that it reduces my con to 10 which my breath weapon dc is based on. And Athro is more person then cat in my opinion.

[NeoSeraphi]

I have pointed him in the direction of the thread but he didn't seem to change his verdict on alternate forms w/ breath weapon and gaze attacks.

An awakened animal has an ECL of 3?

Monster Characters get no love! D:

The problem with the hybrid form of the oriental adventures race is that it reduces my con to 10 which my breath weapon dc is based on. And Athro is more person then cat in my opinion.

Well, one of that 3 is your DFA. To be clear, the cat has 2 Racial HD which will give you d8 HD, +1 BAB, +3 Ref, +3 Fort, and +0 Will, along with 1 feat. To start a game, you need at least 1 level in a character class, so your Awakened Cat would have 2 Cat HD and 1 level of Dragonfire Adept.

[Anderlith]

This is possibly the coolest character idea I've seen in a while.









I may steal it.

[Cog]

The two racial HD are kind of annoying. Wouldn't have any level adjustment, so you'd be ECL 3 at Level 1.
Rather, it has LA: -, which is a very different matter than LA 0. I am aware of no RAW number for an awakened cat's ECL.

[NineThePuma]

... Isn't the Tibbit naturally a cat, and has to change forms into a Humanoid, or am I going insane?

[Cog]

... Isn't the Tibbit naturally a cat, and has to change forms into a Humanoid, or am I going insane?
Sorry, it's time to go see the doctors with the nice clean white coats. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Though, oddly enough, it is easier for them to become a cat than to become a humanoid; it's a standard action vs. a full-round action.

[NineThePuma]

Figures. Shows what I know.

((Go Kobold instead! Use a scroll of Reduce Person to be Tiny, see if you can find a caster to Permanancy it, and with Slight Build, get treated as smaller-than-tiny (Diminuative?) for opposed skill checks. They can't spot you, so they think the Knight did it!))

[gooddragon1]

There is a 5th/8th level spell in the Spell Compendium called (Greater)Stunning Breath. It is an instantaneous spell that gives your breath weapon a stunning rider effect. Instantaneous spell effects don't go away after the spell is cast, so your Breath Weapon is forever changed. You should be able to afford a scroll of the 5th level version by level 3-4. UMD one today.

A sane DM who has read the other spells that affect breath weapons will say that the intent of that spell is for the single instance in which the breath weapon it affects is used. So you use it once and the stunning effect is instantaneous. I would say that the casting time should permit the breath weapon to be used as part of the casting.

[NineThePuma]

Half Shadow Dragon gets a Level Drain breath weapon, right?

[dextercorvia]

A sane DM who has read the other spells that affect breath weapons will say that the intent of that spell is for the single instance in which the breath weapon it affects is used. So you use it once and the stunning effect is instantaneous. I would say that the casting time should permit the breath weapon to be used as part of the casting.

That is actually how those metabreath spells worked in Draconomicon. They were standard action spells, but the BW was part of the spell. As was mentioned above, they change the duration in most of them to 1 round (which makes the whole spell clearer), and the casting time to Swift, but you then have to spend your Standard action to use your BW. Stunning breath missed part of that update, and was missed again in the Errata. Depending on your campaign, it may not be overpowered to play it as written, but it is definitely a check with your DM kind of thing. I'm guessing that if Reprimand's DM is against using supernatural class features in alternate form, that he will rule against this as well.

[Amnestic]

... Isn't the Tibbit naturally a cat, and has to change forms into a Humanoid, or am I going insane?

Despite what everyone wishes, no. For some bizarre reason, WotC (or Paizo, or whoever came up with it since it was first Dragon Mag content) decided that they'd be Halflings which turned into cats instead of the much cooler idea of cats which turn into Halflings. Craziness.


Rather, it has LA: -, which is a very different matter than LA 0. I am aware of no RAW number for an awakened cat's ECL.

Very true, though I don't see much of anything in the Cat statblock that would warrant getting a level adjustment. Especially with the fairly major issue of not having opposable thumbs.


This is possibly the coolest character idea I've seen in a while.

Other 'weird' concepts are Tibbit Psions (no components to speak of, so they can use their powers freely in kitty form) and Warlocks (LAZOR KITTY!) Hengeyokai (OA, updated for LA+0 in Dragon Magazine #318) are also fun to play with with their variety of forms available. Sparrow is a popular choice.