Still too much magic? Caster limit question

[charcoalninja]

Hey all, been debating some houserules to help close the power gap in Pathfinder/3.5 and thought of limiting all full casters to 6th level spells until well into epic. I'd give them 2 more spells of each level per day to compensate.

Basically my question is, do the casters still possess enough earth shattering magic that I shouldn't bother? 6th level spells have some nice things, but I feel that they close the gap on a lot of abuses and crazy and help the mundanes feel more useful. Helps settle down the action economy some I feel.

Anyway thanks for your opinions and thoughts.

[Dusk Eclipse]

One option I have seen used is to keep spells themselves up to level 6 and give the slots; but they can only be used to prepare metamagic-ed spells. With higher level spells being lost magic and forgotten, so if a caster wants a spell he must go on a quest to get it.

[charcoalninja]

that is a nice thought, and saves mucking about with casting progressions. I had wanted to keep the spells in game, just out of reach. Only trouble with that becomes independant spell research. Spend a few k gold to become a god doesn't seem too bad.

[Analytica]

that is a nice thought, and saves mucking about with casting progressions. I had wanted to keep the spells in game, just out of reach. Only trouble with that becomes independant spell research. Spend a few k gold to become a god doesn't seem too bad.

Who says spell research generally has to succeed? Change those rules. Let it be generally impossible unless you have specific clues from lost civilizations, i.e. plot items, and even then it might cost much more and take much longer. Let only the lower-level spells be researched the normal way.

[Blisstake]

Well, first you should identify what the biggest problem casters are having in your campaigns. Typically, I adjust the specific problem spells, and limit items such as wands, scrolls, and staffs, in order to force them to carefully use their resources.

[Siosilvar]

Only trouble with that becomes independant spell research. Spend a few k gold to become a god doesn't seem too bad.

You're the DM, right?

Player says, "I want this effect." and/or "I want it to be this level!" and spends the cash.

You say, "Hmm, okay, lemme write that up for you." or "You can't get that at that level, but here's a lesser effect/higher level spell."

[herrhauptmann]

I'd give them 2 more spells of each level per day to compensate.

I'd say don't start granting the extra spells until after level 13 (when people start learning 7th level spells).
Otherwise, you'll have 7th level wizards with 6 cantrips, 6 first level, 5 second level, 3 third level, and 3 fourth level spells.

13: +1 first level
14: +1 second, +1 first
15: +1 second, +1 third
16: +1 third, +1 fourth
17: +1 fourth, +1 fifth
18: +1 fifth +1 sixth
19: +1 sixth

[candycorn]

This does enhance the value of the Chameleon PrC, as it now gets the most powerful commonly available spells. You may wish to consider limiting 6th level spells for the classes that get to 6th level spells, just to keep SOME incentive to be a full caster. Also, classes that only get 6th level spells (like bard) often get spells that are 7th level spells for wizard.

After all, why be a wizard, when I can get better HP, skill points, Caster level, and the same spell progression, as a chameleon? AND have the option of divine spells, to boot.

[Coidzor]

Hmm. From what I recall, there's a number of things in epic play that you'd have difficulties with making beatable if they only had access to 6th and lower spells, so the question becomes more one of how you'd be playing in epic which goes into how you'd be altering the epic rules set to make it playable or making one of your own from scratch.

[charcoalninja]

On the topic of why play wizard when bard has cool stuff: Simple, the Sorc/Wiz spell list is vastly superior to the bard list, and Wizard can learn every spell out there while bard has a spells known. Bonus feats don't hurt either, nor do the Pathfinder class features for wizard.

I'm not familiar with the Chameleon PrC, and would either disallow, or make only available at epic, PrCs that granted easy access to 7th lvl + magic such as sublime cord.


I'd say don't start granting the extra spells until after level 13 (when people start learning 7th level spells).
Otherwise, you'll have 7th level wizards with 6 cantrips, 6 first level, 5 second level, 3 third level, and 3 fourth level spells.

That was my intent, though I'll have to doublecheck my tables. I didn't see having a few extra slots as being a balance breaker, but that is definitely something to watch out for.

With epic play I can't really think of too many challenges that would be unbeatable without 7th+ level casting. I also figured part of the epic questing would be appealing to outsiders that are capable of casting more powerful magic, so RP and the adventure becomes the means for the party to secure this magic rather than Jim waking up one day and fixing the universe with a standard action. Can you think of any threats offhand that would require such spells to beat? Is that the general experience of the boards that epic is unplayable without a full caster?

Also with regards to the spell research: If I allow a PC to research to create a new spell and have him dump resources into it, I'm not going to turn around and jack his work. That seems really asshatish to me. If he spent the time, he should receive the reward. I do really like making the extra slots metamagic only though. And could just unlock other spells for those levels at epic. Rather than messing with the spell research mechanics, merely disallow it for those higher levels until the PCs are in epic and slowly allow them to learn the higher spells through quests and adventures. It seems an elegant solution without the players of full casters feeling like all their toys have been taken away.


On adjusting individual spells: I had debated simply doing that, but I get the feeling that there's an awful large list of spells and powers that are overpowered and nigh broken. I'm wanting to reign in my Tier 1's and 2's to make everyone feel closer to the same powerlevel.

[candycorn]

On the topic of why play wizard when bard has cool stuff: Simple, the Sorc/Wiz spell list is vastly superior to the bard list, and Wizard can learn every spell out there while bard has a spells known. Bonus feats don't hurt either, nor do the Pathfinder class features for wizard.

I'm not familiar with the Chameleon PrC, and would either disallow, or make only available at epic, PrCs that granted easy access to 7th lvl + magic such as sublime cord.


Chameleon is a 10 level PrC from Races of Destiny. It provides the ability to gain arcane casting off the sorceror/wizard list (CL = 2 x Chameleon Level), or divine casting off the cleric list as well. In both cases, they get to a maximum of level 6 spells.

Think of it as a diet factotum, that can boost its stats somewhat, and mimic other classes, to some extent.

But if casting is limited to level 6 spells, then they'll be an attractive choice after level 6-7, and actually higher CL than wizard or cleric at level 11-19. They'll get 5th - 6th level spells at about the same time (4th and lower a bit slower).

The issue is, if wizards only get 6th level spells, this PrC becomes MUCH more attractive. It gets all the big ticket class spells, if in smaller numbers, and can eventually theurge them both.