Crushing disappointments

[danzibr]

I was going to say Gargantuan disappointments but I realized someone might think I'm talking about dragons or something. I then thought to switch it to Colossal disappointments, then Huge disappointments, then Large disappointments... anyways.

So I was going to make a VoP Warforged Totemist (you may have seen other threads involving this). I was all pumped about my starting AC. 8 from Adamantite Body, 4 exalted from VoP, 1 from Dex. Then I saw the line at the end of the exalted bonus to AC from VoP:

This does not stack with an armor bonus.

Of course I was crushed. My goals of having totally broken (well, pretty good) AC at level 1 were not going to happen. I could no longer make a sentient golem thing that knew all about the soul and said "screw you" to material possessions. I had no choice but to redo my build, ditching VoP.*

I was wondering what other disappointments people have had in D&D. Probably something totally awesome that you thought would work but doesn't, but I'm sure there are all sorts.

*This is a dramatization. Of course I could still go VoP and by level 12 get +8 to AC which would replace my Adamantite Body, but... still, disappointing. I mean, +8 is no +16.

[Fenryr]

Order of the Bow Initiate (3.5). Standard action the precison damage? I was hoping for Manyshot and Greater Manyshot. But no.

[Tvtyrant]

Monk. A class that has the "punch things" shtick but does it worse then a normal Barbarian or Fighter. :(

[JaronK]

God, I did that same thing with VoP+Adamantine Body for a competition... that sucked.

I think the worst was doing all that work on making an improved version of the supermount called the ubermount that used bloodlines... only to find that the FAQ had nerfed Bloodlines so they wouldn't effect mounts.

JaronK

[Metahuman1]

Barbarian/Dragon Shamen. I was suppose to unleash the fury of dragons. Didn't work so good.

[Person_Man]

The Scout. When Complete Adventurer first came out I played one for a long time because I liked the concept. Turns out that it's class abilities are mostly garbage.

Slightly off topic, I made a homebrew class specifically to address the desire to play a Vow of Poverty build that did not suck. The result was the Forsaker Totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172094). It worked out fine in our campaign, and a few Playgrounders have used it as well with good results.

[Tyndmyr]

Fighter. That is all.

[danzibr]

Slightly off topic, I made a homebrew class specifically to address the desire to play a Vow of Poverty build that did not suck. The result was the Forsaker Totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172094). It worked out fine in our campaign, and a few Playgrounders have used it as well with good results.
Oooh yeah, I'll run this by my DM. He's usually opposed to homebrew but... we'll see. It looks good.

[Grendus]

Vow of Poverty. It's not that the bonuses aren't enough, I knew that going in and accepted it, I just wanted the character to be simple. The bonus feats though are terrible. Exalted feats are, for the most part, absolutely terrible (with the exception of Touch of Golden Ice, which can be overpowered - even a Balor fails on a nat 1). I think I ran out of good ones two or three bonus feats in. There's just nothing worth keeping there, it's awful. I spent more time looking for exalted feats to take than I would have picking WBL.

[Delcor]

My biggest disappointment was when I realized my sorcerer couldn't use quicken spell, or even a rod of quicken.:smallfrown:

[Rei_Jin]

My biggest disapppointment is that ranged combat gets boned hard. And if you try and use anything other than a longbow, you get boned even harder.

People think Melee can't have nice things without ToB. Ranged combat gets so few nice things that you may as well sit down and cry.

[Aharon]

For me, it was the second 3rd ed build I did. I didn't have any optimization experience and chose things that sounded cool. The result was a low-wis psychic warrior with up the walls. (3.0)
After that, I made a cleric :smallbiggrin:

[Acanous]

mine was when they went and gave every alignment a Paladin. :/

Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter that stacks with Blackguard? Cheese.

[flumphy]

Warlocks. "Yay! Finally I can be a spellcaster without vancian casting!"

And then I realized that, as far as power was concerned, I was doing about as well as a melee class. :smallfrown:

[Greenish]

Warlocks. "Yay! Finally I can be a spellcaster without vancian casting!"Have you looked into psionics? :smalltongue:

[flumphy]

Have you looked into psionics? :smalltongue:

I hate power points too. Basically, I want to be able to spam unlimited attacks but have the fluff of a wizard. Which I guess the soulbow almost does, but then I might as well be a warlock. Now, if only I could find a DM crazy enough to let me play an arcane swordsage...:smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

Bardic music is mine. It is a well of untapped potential. In core, it boils down to "buffs and mind control." I want bardic music to be more like elfsong (from Shannara), a holophone (from Futurama), or stuff like Dragonfire Inspiration (DM), Seeker of the Song (CArc), Infernal Sorcerer Howl (PHB-II), Dirgesinger (LM), or Healing Hymn (CCham).

Even get rid of the spellcasting. I don't want it.

Yes, I just listed a bunch of options. The disappointment is that they cost things rather than being built into the system itself.

[Ardantis]

For me it's gotta be grappling.

I've made three grappling characters.

The first one, a lvl 1 human fighter, ended up running around with a greatsword because even with his three grappling feats, he was so much more effective with just the sword.

The second one, a 10th level barbarian/reaping mauler with a relic from the cleric book (some belt of Kord) which gave him massive str and grapple bonuses, destroyed a few manticores but was felled when he missed his melee touch attack to start a grapple against an Ogre King, who then smacked him with a greatsword power attack crit which dropped him to negatives in one hit.

Third, I spent an entire afternoon building a lvl 17 Dwarven reaping mauler who wore armor spikes and was designed to be dropped off of a flying carpet by our spellcaster, but because our group took too long to get snacks after building these horrendously complicated characters (lvl 17 is the highest I've ever built), the DM got upset and declared that it was too late for us to start playing. I later learned that the character had really no way to grapple creatures significantly larger than he was.

Somebody play a grappler well!! I'd love to hear a story about how a grappler was awesome.

[Ardantis]

Ha, crushing disappointments. Grappling. Funny.

[Kojiro]

Mystic Theurge. Not how they're three caster levels behind without early entry tricks; I'm fine with that. That's good. What isn't good is that they only have ten levels with mediocre stats and no abilities beyond the spell advancement. You could probably talk a DM into letting you take them beyond ten, which isn't unreasonable (you still need level twenty to get ninth level spells), but if they won't allow that, well, have fun deciding what you're doing after level sixteen.

[Soranar]

My group was playing a party of necropolitans , I considered playing a bard until I realized undead don't get morale bonuses *facepalm*.

Realizing that Dragonscale husk negates every other AC bonuses, making the feature utterly useless.

Seeing that (according to rules clarifications) Iajutsu focus doesn't stack with sneak attack damage (you get one or the other but not both).

[Thespianus]

- Frenzied Berserker. The concept is awesome, the execution is so sad: "Ouch, I took some damage from a thorn in the forest! INSTA-TPK!"

- All "X ability to AC when not wearing armor"-features, especially when limited to class levels as in the case of the Invisible Blade.

[sonofzeal]

Half the monstrous races. Level Adjustment can be a cruel mistress.

[ILM]

The impossibility of making a half-decent archer without sneakery and clerics. In the same vein, the 3.5 Order of the Bow Initiate, especially vs. 3.0 OotBI.

Elemental Savant.

Force Missile Mage. At least let me use it with the other spells of the Magic Missile line :smallfrown:.

Melee combat pre-ToB. Better late than never, but better early than late.

[Heliomance]

For me it's gotta be grappling.

I've made three grappling characters.

The first one, a lvl 1 human fighter, ended up running around with a greatsword because even with his three grappling feats, he was so much more effective with just the sword.

The second one, a 10th level barbarian/reaping mauler with a relic from the cleric book (some belt of Kord) which gave him massive str and grapple bonuses, destroyed a few manticores but was felled when he missed his melee touch attack to start a grapple against an Ogre King, who then smacked him with a greatsword power attack crit which dropped him to negatives in one hit.

Third, I spent an entire afternoon building a lvl 17 Dwarven reaping mauler who wore armor spikes and was designed to be dropped off of a flying carpet by our spellcaster, but because our group took too long to get snacks after building these horrendously complicated characters (lvl 17 is the highest I've ever built), the DM got upset and declared that it was too late for us to start playing. I later learned that the character had really no way to grapple creatures significantly larger than he was.

Somebody play a grappler well!! I'd love to hear a story about how a grappler was awesome.

Reaping Mauler is a trap. The prereq feat, Cunning Wrestler or something, has the requirement that you be no larger than medium. Grapple builds have to stack on the size bonuses. The way to do a non-sucky grappler is to hulk up.

[Keneth]

Every melee character before ToB.

Soulknives when the ExPH first came out.

Sorcerer metamagics.

Most feats from Core and a lot of them henceforth (what were they thinking when they were balancing them?) and the need to take them as prerequisites.

Epic level rules.

Third-dimension rules (but there's really not much to be done about it on a 2D grid). I really wanted to run an effective underwater/flight campaign but haven't had the chance as of yet.

Warlock before I homebrew'd a boatload of new invocations and created a custom crafting system (Eldritch Glaive was also a significant improvement).

4th edition (what the hell, seriously).

D&D has way too many flaws and holes to list them all but I still love it like a slightly retarded house pet. :smallbiggrin:

[Fouredged Sword]

Someone should make a rpg table version for 3d square grids. I can't program, but it would be awsome

[CTrees]

4th edition (what the hell, seriously).

Dammit, I knew someone would get that before me.

A general one: how most of the PrCs with flavor that really picque my interest end up mechanically terrible.

[Keneth]

Someone should make a rpg table version for 3d square grids. I can't program, but it would be awsome That reminds me of another disappointment: Square grid. Works for tabletop I guess (although we use a hex grid unless we need to draw some nice square buildings) but otherwise a thoroughly disappointing system and especially ineffective when it comes to 3D combat.

[Ravens_cry]

Disruption can only be added to bludgeoning weapons. Sure, it's not that strong, but damn it, I want to play the Harvester of Souls, come to collect that which has been stolen. Disruption on a Scythe make SO much thematic sense.

[TOZ]

High-level melee.

Going from 15th to 23rd level in an 'epic' campaign thinking we're the kings of the battlefield.

Then getting dominated and turned against the party by a bard. A bard.

Then going up against an actual monster from the epic handbook, and learning that all we were fighting before were mooks.

:smallfrown:

[Amphetryon]

Overrun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#overrun), in all its horrid iterations. I wanted it to be cool, but as far as I can tell, it's just a stylish way for your character to commit suicide. The exceptions are extraordinarily niche.

[Das Platyvark]

Playing with my group before they realized that 4e was not in fact the next messiah.

[Ernir]

Every PrC ever with 4 feats as prereqs.:smallfrown:

[ILM]

Every PrC ever with 4 feats as prereqs.:smallfrown:
Every PrC ever with completely worthless feats as prereqs: Endurance? Toughness? :smallfurious:

[Ernir]

Every PrC ever with completely worthless feats as prereqs: Endurance? Toughness? :smallfurious:

That sucks too. The point I was trying to make is the one that almost regardless of how awesome the PrC you are entering is, by the time you have sunk 4 (or more? Can't think of an example of that off-hand) feats into just getting in, your character is likely to be seriously overspecialized (Dervish, I'm looking at you. :smallannoyed:). And that's the crushing disappointment.
Some characters are powerful enough to simply deal with it (like Spelldancers), but the number of things the character ends up being just... not able to do still stings a bit. =/

[Tetsubo 57]

The Serpent Kingdom. I wanted awesome serpent stuff and got... this.

[Heliomance]

Every PrC ever with completely worthless feats as prereqs: Endurance? Toughness? :smallfurious:

Improved Toughness explicitly counts as Toughness for the purpose of prereqs. And if you're willing to cheese it slightly, Iron Will can be got for gold.

[Darth_Versity]

Reading War Hulk and getting all excited for a melee machine of destruction, and then seeing the BAB :smallfrown:

[Xtomjames]

My biggest disappointments of D&D 3.5 are the Ninja and Samurai classes. They just don't work well and tend to flounder at higher levels. That and the lacking prestige classes associated with the god Mask from Faerun.

[Shadow Lord]

Truenamer and Shadowcaster. They both made me very sad, because all of my characters who were either kept on dying! And the Shadowcaster turned the fifteen minute day into a five minute day. T'was boring.

On the flip-side, Tomb of Battle made me rather happy. And it inspired the fix that I use for Shadowcaster!

[Talya]

I was going to say Gargantuan disappointments but I realized someone might think I'm talking about dragons or something. I then thought to switch it to Colossal disappointments, then Huge disappointments, then Large disappointments... anyways.

thog crushing disappointed when thog try crushing with rock and talkie man not go splat.

[FMArthur]

Reading the Threesteel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20030730a) spell all the way through is like pure childlike joy from receiving a wonderful new toy, followed by it being immediately slapped out of your hands to shatter on the ground.

[Andry]

Affter lending my copy of the TOB to my dm so he can check it out to see if he would allow it, He agrees to it and says it's good that melee is finally getting something good. I proceed to make my 7th level crusader with his 3 page backstory (campaign requirement).

We begin play. The second encounter of the night is a strikeforce of skull crusher ogres on the opening round boom! The cleric gets sent into negatives from a power attacking critical. After this auspicious beginng of a fight I successfully keep the party alive with devoted spirit strikes/stances while taking a beating like Rocky Balboa. We eventually win the battle due to my crusaders tankyness /battlefield control and the sorcerors direct damage spells.

After this combat the dm hands me a blank character sheet and says TOB is overpowered. I said WTH! did you even read it? Nope he answered it's just banned. :smallfurious:

[hewhosaysfish]

My first character (appart from 1 pre-gen) was a Sorceror. I saw Dragon Disciple in the DMG and thought "Ooh! I get to be a DRAGN!"

9 levels of Sorc + 3 DD = 4th level spells... when all the other casters have 6th level spells. In exchange, I got a 1/day breath weapon and a bite attack; it was not enough to make me feel like a dragon.

[Fax Celestis]

Reading the Threesteel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20030730a) spell all the way through is like pure childlike joy from receiving a wonderful new toy, followed by it being immediately slapped out of your hands to shatter on the ground.

Wow, that is a kick in the teeth.

[Aquillion]

Bardic music is mine. It is a well of untapped potential. In core, it boils down to "buffs and mind control." I want bardic music to be more like elfsong (from Shannara), a holophone (from Futurama), or stuff like Dragonfire Inspiration (DM), Seeker of the Song (CArc), Infernal Sorcerer Howl (PHB-II), Dirgesinger (LM), or Healing Hymn (CCham).

Even get rid of the spellcasting. I don't want it.

Yes, I just listed a bunch of options. The disappointment is that they cost things rather than being built into the system itself.Refluff your spells as musical effects. Done. (Most Bard spells, if you look closely, are very clearly selected with that in mind -- illusions woven out of your songs, etc.)


Reading the Threesteel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20030730a) spell all the way through is like pure childlike joy from receiving a wonderful new toy, followed by it being immediately slapped out of your hands to shatter on the ground.Why would they do that? The spell generally wouldn't even be that powerful if it didn't destroy the weapon -- you gotta buy any powerful magic weapons you want to use, which is a pretty big investment for just one spell, and you get no strength bonuses or feats to your attack, so it's probably going to be something like 3d8 damage or so, plus maybe a bit more from magical weapon effects -- not very much, but fun to play around with using different magical weapons. And even with the maxxed BAB, it can miss, while you've got plenty of other damage-dealing spells which don't (or which make more reliable touch attacks.)

Just ignore the last paragraph; it's stupid.

[JaronK]

Reading War Hulk and getting all excited for a melee machine of destruction, and then seeing the BAB :smallfrown:

Find the Skillful weapon enchantment or get a Warchanter to help you out, and rejoice!

JaronK

[Elvencloud]

Shadowdancer. I was hoping for a little more, and the dimension door feet limit sucked to me. :(

[Ravens_cry]

Reading War Hulk and getting all excited for a melee machine of destruction, and then seeing the BAB :smallfrown:
You get the equivalent of full BAB, you just can't qualify for feats with BAB requirements above your entry class.

[vampire2948]

That I cannot fit maneuvers of a decently high level into a build and still have 9th level divine and arcane spells, without using Beholder Mage or Ur-Priest. :smallfrown:

[Kaje]

That I cannot fit maneuvers of a decently high level into a build and still have 9th level divine and arcane spells, without using Beholder Mage or Ur-Priest. :smallfrown:By RAI, you're correct. By strict RAW, there's not a single prestige class that doesn't fully progress your initiator level.

[Fax Celestis]

Refluff your spells as musical effects. Done. (Most Bard spells, if you look closely, are very clearly selected with that in mind -- illusions woven out of your songs, etc.)

That works, but you're missing the point.

[NNescio]

Refluff your spells as musical effects. Done. (Most Bard spells, if you look closely, are very clearly selected with that in mind -- illusions woven out of your songs, etc.)


It's pretty much the default fluff anyway:


A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a bard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard’s Charisma modifier.

[Xtomjames]

That I cannot fit maneuvers of a decently high level into a build and still have 9th level divine and arcane spells, without using Beholder Mage or Ur-Priest. :smallfrown:

Maneuvers are based on total character level and stances known. So if you are an 18th level sorcerer and take a level or two in swordsage or any other of the classes that grant maneuvers you'd have maneuver level of 2+1/2*all other class levels, thus 18/2=9, so you could have the highest level maneuvers in the game.

If you take the feat that grants you maneuvers without taking a martial class from ToB you can gain a maneuver again of the highest level so long as you meet the prerequisites (many of which don't require a stance to be known).

[tyckspoon]

Maneuvers are based on total character level and stances known. So if you are an 18th level sorcerer and take a level or two in swordsage or any other of the classes that grant maneuvers you'd have maneuver level of 2+1/2*all other class levels, thus 18/2=9, so you could have the highest level maneuvers in the game.


You.. might want to read more carefully. Maneuver levels progress the same as spell levels- that is, you need to be IL 1 to take 1st level maneuvers, IL 3 to take 2nd, IL 5 for 3rd, and so forth. Sorc 18/Initiator 2 would be Initiator Level 10, allowing for level 5 maneuvers. And they don't really have a dang thing to do with stances, except in that stances count as maneuvers for the 'X discipline maneuvers known' prereqs.

[Kaeso]

Scout and/or Swift hunter.
It looks like a cool, flavourfull class/combo and I always wanted to make a cool dagger thrower, but it turns out neither the ranger nor the scout give you any means to move and full attack (at a range) in the same turn. This means your main class ability becomes nearly useless when you get your first iterative attack.

[FMArthur]

Scout and/or Swift hunter.
It looks like a cool, flavourfull class/combo and I always wanted to make a cool dagger thrower, but it turns out neither the ranger nor the scout give you any means to move and full attack (at a range) in the same turn. This means your main class ability becomes nearly useless when you get your first iterative attack.

Lion's Charge. Spell Compendium, 2nd level Ranger spell. It's pounce as a spell.
There's also the Wild Shape variant Ranger. You can much more literally use a lion's charge if you like.

Missed the "at a range" part. That means you're restricted to Greater Manyshot, or Travel Devotion/other easy free movement modes. Getting your full attack after moving isn't difficult regardless of your class, and Ranger can get it easier than most with GMS.

[Larpus]

1. Realize that just about anything makes a better fighter than Fighter unless I had supreme mastery of them feats (and even then sometimes).

2. Just how feat-intensive pretty much anything non-magical is to be done, even archery, even when your character is supposed to be good at that.

[Kantolin]

Eldritch Knight.

This is, however, probably a complaint for extremely different reasons than most. ^_^ I wanted to play a Fighter/Wizard, not a Wizard/Fighter. My Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / EK 10 character was, and very definitively, not sturdy during an ambush (and we were ambushed a ridiculous lot), and was very clearly the latter of the two.

I believe what I wanted was something like a Paladin with arcane magic instead of divine. Maybe a full spellsword - end up with ~5th level spells, but be a tank first. What I got was a wizard with a higher-than-usual BAB, who was unaware of the fact that he was a wizard.

When I gave up the whole 'go whap things with my orc double axe' schtick and just sat in back with the mystic theurge casting spells, life improved.

A tweaked hexblade would've probably been what I wanted - not a duskblade, mind you, as I was distinctly not about the boomy spells. But the game was essentially core-only. I also suppose polymorph would've solved my problems, but I was avoiding that one for unrelated reasons :P

[Thiyr]

That time where my DM reduced the damage the half-giant psywar we had who double-expansion'd and jumped through a skylight on top of someone did. Falling rules suggested a few hundred d6. That was a real disappointment of crushing. Otherwise, my list includes: playing a non-DMM battle cleric, playing a beguiler (and running into tons of outsiders and their massive saves), and when a cool game is ended in its prime. Oh, and exotic weapons. Exotic weapons are extra-disapointing (even the spiked chain), because they're so...barely exotic.

[Aquillion]

I believe what I wanted was something like a Paladin with arcane magic instead of divine. Maybe a full spellsword - end up with ~5th level spells, but be a tank first. What I got was a wizard with a higher-than-usual BAB, who was unaware of the fact that he was a wizard. I believe there's an Arcane Paladin variant. It's exactly what it sounds like and works surprisingly well.

[Luca]

Its a feat I believe, Sword of the Arcane Order.

It allows you to prepare wizard/sorcerer spells in your spell slots.

[Thespianus]

Why would they do that? The spell generally wouldn't even be that powerful if it didn't destroy the weapon -- you gotta buy any powerful magic weapons you want to use, which is a pretty big investment for just one spell, and you get no strength bonuses or feats to your attack, so it's probably going to be something like 3d8 damage or so, plus maybe a bit more from magical weapon effects.(...)
Just ignore the last paragraph; it's stupid.

Amen to that. If it was a 1st level spell, it could have been relevant, destroying a non-magical dagger to score three hits, but this? At spell level 3?

I'm sure once could get some good mileage out of it if you have a huge source of Sneak attack damage as well, but..No. Destroying the attacking weapon is just daft.

[Kaeso]

Lion's Charge. Spell Compendium, 2nd level Ranger spell. It's pounce as a spell.
There's also the Wild Shape variant Ranger. You can much more literally use a lion's charge if you like.

Missed the "at a range" part. That means you're restricted to Greater Manyshot, or Travel Devotion/other easy free movement modes. Getting your full attack after moving isn't difficult regardless of your class, and Ranger can get it easier than most with GMS.

That's a good point, but travel devotion only works once per combat unless you dip cleric (making your skirmish weaker) and manyshot is taken at a whoopin' -4 penalty and another -2 per iterative attack, which can make a very big difference between an obvious hit and a total miss. Add in TWF (for throwing two daggers at the same time) and you have yourself a flurry of misses.

[Eric Tolle]

Third Edition: I wanted something that would revise and streamline D&D and make it fun and modern again. Instead I got "Magic the Gathering the rpg".

Pathfinder: I wanted something that would fix the huge imbalances and flaws of 3.5. Instead I got a game system equivalent of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titantic.

[Eric Tolle]

Third Edition: I wanted something that would revise and streamline D&D and make it fun and modern again. Instead I got "Magic the Gathering the rpg".

Pathfinder: I wanted something that would fix the huge imbalances and flaws of 3.5. Instead I got a game system equivalent of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titantic.

[Person_Man]

Bardic music is mine. It is a well of untapped potential. In core, it boils down to "buffs and mind control." I want bardic music to be more like elfsong (from Shannara), a holophone (from Futurama), or stuff like Dragonfire Inspiration (DM), Seeker of the Song (CArc), Infernal Sorcerer Howl (PHB-II), Dirgesinger (LM), or Healing Hymn (CCham).

Even get rid of the spellcasting. I don't want it.

Yes, I just listed a bunch of options. The disappointment is that they cost things rather than being built into the system itself.

True that. In WotC defense, they were trying to cling to the Gygax-ian tradition of a Bard that can "do everything." But they ended up making a jumbled pile of garbage which was thankfully saved by the addition of various amazing Bard specific feats and items.

Simple alternate class feature fix: Lose all spellcasting (but not UMD). Gain a bonus feat on all of your dead levels (2, 4, 5, 7, 10, 11, 13, 16, 17, 19) limited to thematically appropriate feats (bardic music stuff, Weapon Finesse, Words of Creation, etc). Throw in a capstone that allows you to use unlimited Bardic Music uses per day or something similar, and you're set.

[kardar233]

That I cannot fit maneuvers of a decently high level into a build and still have 9th level divine and arcane spells, without using Beholder Mage or Ur-Priest. :smallfrown:

I can see a Cleric9/Crusader1/Ruby Knight Vindicator10 that gets 9ths at lvl20 and 8th-level maneuvers. That looks pretty good to me.

[vampire2948]

I can see a Cleric9/Crusader1/Ruby Knight Vindicator10 that gets 9ths at lvl20 and 8th-level maneuvers. That looks pretty good to me.

But it is not triple 9's, as I said. Hence the disappointment.

The most I can get is 9th Arcane, 9th Divine, Initiator level 18 with 5th level Maneuvers. And that's relying on abusing some homebrew that my group uses. - They would throw all the books at me though, more than once.


*adds another disappointment*

Arrived at a 1-shot Adventure's dungeon once with the rest of the party. Playing a vampire cleric.

There was a stream coming from the enterance to the cave mouth.

...

Kobolds know how to keep vampires out.

[kardar233]

All three? That's a damn tall order right there, and not something I'd think to be disappointed about. Having dual 9ths is straight-up nasty on its own, and you'd want maneuvers on top of that? Play gestalt if you want that kind of versatility; at least then we'd be able to keep up with you.

[MeeposFire]

Improved Toughness explicitly counts as Toughness for the purpose of prereqs. And if you're willing to cheese it slightly, Iron Will can be got for gold.

I do not recall improved toughness officially being considered toughness for prerequisites. I know that is a common houserule though...

[Shade Kerrin]

Amen to that. If it was a 1st level spell, it could have been relevant, destroying a non-magical dagger to score three hits, but this? At spell level 3?

I'm sure once could get some good mileage out of it if you have a huge source of Sneak attack damage as well, but..No. Destroying the attacking weapon is just daft.

...I could...play a Soulknife/Wizard or a Soulknife with a magic item of threesteel...and destroy my reformable as a free action magic weapon.
Yes, it's clutching at straws, but it might work, somehow.

[FMArthur]

A good approximation of Threesteel's function might be the Steeldance spell in Spell Compendium. You hold two swords when you cast the spell, and then they float around at your direction. On your turn each can attack an adjacent opponent with an attack bonus of CL + [relevant ability modifier] and deal their weapon damage + [relevant ability modifier]. The spell has Medium range and is 3rd level. It lasts for rounds/CL, which is a great improvement, and while they can be targetted for sundering and disarming, they are at least not destroyed 100% and would take fairly stupid enemies to spend their actions attacking them - unless you're invisible.

In combination with the Whirling Blade 2nd-level spell, or better yet, a second casting of Steeldance, you'll get at least as many attacks. You'd better have Quick Draw to best use these 'animated sword' tactics. You could also use Cloud of Knives (PHII) as a 2nd-level substitute for Steeldance at lower levels, or when you want to keep actions freed-up (since directing Steeldance swords to another location would be a move action by the PH's default rules on directing spells).

[Radar]

My first character (appart from 1 pre-gen) was a Sorceror. I saw Dragon Disciple in the DMG and thought "Ooh! I get to be a DRAGN!"

9 levels of Sorc + 3 DD = 4th level spells... when all the other casters have 6th level spells. In exchange, I got a 1/day breath weapon and a bite attack; it was not enough to make me feel like a dragon.
Yeah, it one of those PrCs with very cool concept and utterly poor execution. The other one, that was hurt as badly is Arcane Archer - he's so arcane, he has no spell progression whatsover. :smallannoyed:

It's like being overjoyed by the perspective of performing in circus and ending up with this (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2009-05-27).

[Kaje]

Mine was when I realized the text of the duskblade's arcane channeling implies that you can't affect the same target twice in a full attack.