a quick question about a character. regarding rules

[Kenneth]

Ok so I am playing a monstrous race as a character and I just got to the pont where I get multiple attack a round in a full attack action.

herein lies the quandry. I already have 3 attacks a round anyways. the good old claw/claw/bite routine. exactly how does the higher BaB work with already having multiple attacks to begin with?

[dextercorvia]

Short Version: You make regular iterative attacks with Unarmed Strikes or Manufactured weapons. If you choose to use them, this counts as your Primary weapon, and your natural attacks (that aren't occupied by weapons) can be made as secondary attacks at a -5 (or less if you have Multiattack).

Required Reading:

Natural Weapon Miniguide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0)

Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928)

[Kenneth]

that did not quite answer my question as did either of those articels you linked.

the first one kinda hinted at it but did not give a definative.

what I am asking is this.

at frist level I got 3 attcak in a full attack action, claw, claw, bite My claws were the main and hit for 1d4 dmg, while my bite was my 2ndary attack and did 1d6. I was in term of melee fighting about as good as our rogue when not back stabbing orcs. though the rare times I actaully hit with my bite, it was pretty nice.

now that my BAB is +6/+1 i am stumoped. the Brilliant gmaeoligist link you posted leads to think that I now get 4 attacks in a round going claw/claw/bite+claw.


is this right?

[Autopsibiofeeder]

that did not quite answer my question as did either of those articels you linked.

the first one kinda hinted at it but did not give a definative.

what I am asking is this.

at frist level I got 3 attcak in a full attack action, claw, claw, bite My claws were the main and hit for 1d4 dmg, while my bite was my 2ndary attack and did 1d6. I was in term of melee fighting about as good as our rogue when not back stabbing orcs. though the rare times I actaully hit with my bite, it was pretty nice.

now that my BAB is +6/+1 i am stumoped. the Brilliant gmaeoligist link you posted leads to think that I now get 4 attacks in a round going claw/claw/bite+claw.


is this right?

No, it is not. You are either stuck doing claw/claw/bite all your career, or you pick up a greatsword (or whatever) and do sword/sword/bite (+6/+1/+6-5), eventually e.g. sword/sword/sword/sword/bite (+18/+13/+8/+3/+18-5). There are feats for certain monster types (like dragons and aberrations) to get additional natural attacks, but they require a high b.a.b. and that you fulfill the racial requirement.

[mootoall]

Simple answer: No, you do not get iterative attacks with natural weapons.

Caveat: If you wield a sword in one hand, you can forgo that claw attack for iteratives with that weapon.

[Gorgondantess]

...Or you can pick up a longsword and do sword/sword/claw/bite, but the claw is at -5. I think.

[Vandicus]

There are two different attack options you have access to. One is to make a standard full round attack, which is made at +6/+1. The other option is to make an attack with each of your natural weapons, giving you the according penalties.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

...Or you can pick up a longsword and do sword/sword/claw/bite, but the claw is at -5. I think.

*Mind boggles a bit.* Hmmm...I never thought about this, but wouldn't you effectively be two-weapon fighting then? *Mind continues to boggle* :smallsmile:

[mootoall]

Nope. Natural weapons only incur regular secondary weapon penalties.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Nope. Natural weapons only incur regular secondary weapon penalties.

Hmm, I guess you are right. The whole idea strikes me as a tad odd, though. But I guess that is just me :smallwink:.

[Salanmander]

Hmm, I guess you are right. The whole idea strikes me as a tad odd, though. But I guess that is just me :smallwink:.

The rules surrounding natural weapons /are/ quite odd in D&D, I don't know why they chose to make them so different from manufactured weapons.

Another fun consequence of this is attacks while grappling. When grappling, you get extra attacks for better BAB, but can't use more than one weapon. Because of this, folk with only natural weapons can never make more than one attack per round when grappling (unless the natural weapon specifies otherwise, like rake attacks often do).

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I guess it also means that a dragon could expand his (already fairly large) amount of attacks by wielding an (excessively large) longsword in one of his claws. I guess it is right by RAW, but I think it would not fly in my campaigns.

[Grendus]

It's arguable as to whether a dragon could hold a sword, but assuming you let him, yes, that would make the dragon even more ridiculously dangerous at close ranges (never stand within 5 feet of a dragon past medium size or so, if you let them get off a full attack you might as well just coup de grace yourself).

Presumably, the designers didn't actually intend to let players have natural weapons. For most late game creatures with iteratives, you might as well just say "Damage: yes". Once their hit dice start to really outpace their CR, it would get absurd.

[Keld Denar]

Another fun consequence of this is attacks while grappling. When grappling, you get extra attacks for better BAB, but can't use more than one weapon. Because of this, folk with only natural weapons can never make more than one attack per round when grappling (unless the natural weapon specifies otherwise, like rake attacks often do).
Well, only one per natural weapon. If you had Claw/Claw/Bite, and a BAB of +11, you could make 3 grapple actions to Claw/Claw/Bite. If you only had a BAB of +6, you could make either Claw/Bite or Claw/Claw. If you had a +16 BAB, you could make Claw/Claw/Bite, and for your 4th grapple action, you'd have to choose a grapple action that isn't "attack with a natural weapon".


I guess it also means that a dragon could expand his (already fairly large) amount of attacks by wielding an (excessively large) longsword in one of his claws. I guess it is right by RAW, but I think it would not fly in my campaigns.

Actually, the best way to cheese number of attack/round is to simply give the dragon Improved Unarmed Strike. For example, a Juvinile Red Dragon (size large, BAB 16) with Multiattack would make 4 UAS attacks at +16/+11/+6/+1, 2 claws at +14/+14, 2 wing buffets at +14/+14, 1 bite at +14, and 1 tail at +14, all before Str and other modifiers. Thats 10 attacks. If you PA for 2, thats like +20 damage per round, if all of your attacks hit. You can do the same with a Marilith with even more impressive results, given that she has Multiweapon Fighting AND 6 slam attacks. Thus, she would get 6 full sets of iterative attacks (1 set of mainhand iteratives, 5 sets of offhand iteratives), then 6 slams and a tail slap. Thats like, 25 attacks/round!

Also, I'm the co-author of the first guide linked. If you have any other questions, or if there is anything you'd like to see added to the guide, lemme know and I'll write it up and have Solo edit it in.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Actually, the best way to cheese number of attack/round is to simply give the dragon Improved Unarmed Strike. For example, a Juvinile Red Dragon (size large, BAB 16) with Multiattack would make 4 UAS attacks at +16/+11/+6/+1, 2 claws at +14/+14, 2 wing buffets at +14/+14, 1 bite at +14, and 1 tail at +14, all before Str and other modifiers. Thats 10 attacks. If you PA for 2, thats like +20 damage per round, if all of your attacks hit. You can do the same with a Marilith with even more impressive results, given that she has Multiweapon Fighting AND 6 slam attacks. Thus, she would get 6 full sets of iterative attacks (1 set of mainhand iteratives, 5 sets of offhand iteratives), then 6 slams and a tail slap. Thats like, 25 attacks/round!


Yes, yes....you are right. I just happen to think that is a bit odd. Hence my comment that these things won't fly in my campaigns. Perhaps that makes me a bad DM, but still. It is just over my line-o-cheese, RAW or not :smallsmile:.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yes, yes....you are right. I just happen to think that is a bit odd. Hence my comment that these things won't fly in my campaigns. Perhaps that makes me a bad DM, but still. It is just over my line-o-cheese, RAW or not :smallsmile:.

Melee can't have nice things. :smallfrown:

[Salanmander]

Well, only one per natural weapon. If you had Claw/Claw/Bite, and a BAB of +11, you could make 3 grapple actions to Claw/Claw/Bite. If you only had a BAB of +6, you could make either Claw/Bite or Claw/Claw. If you had a +16 BAB, you could make Claw/Claw/Bite, and for your 4th grapple action, you'd have to choose a grapple action that isn't "attack with a natural weapon".




Really? I always read the line:


You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

as meaning that you couldn't use two different natural weapons. (I'd be super happy to be wrong, that always annoyed me.)

[Keld Denar]

See, I always read that as no TWF. Attacking with natural weapons is very different than TWFing.

[Salanmander]

See, I always read that as no TWF. Attacking with natural weapons is very different than TWFing.

Actually, remembering my comment about Rake attacks I went and looked it up, and:


Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling...

So it looks like natural-weapon users can in fact only make one attack per round when grappling. =(

[Keld Denar]

I wouldn't trust the rules for rake anyway...


Rake

A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.


Improved Grab (Ex)

To use this ability, a leopard must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

These two statements are contradictory. All monsters with Imp Grab and Rake have the same statement, its not exclusive of the leopard. Rake says it can't happen when the grapple starts. Improved Grab says that the creature immediately gets to rake. So...yea...

[Salanmander]

I wouldn't trust the rules for rake anyway...

...(rules about rake and improved grab)...

These two statements are contradictory. All monsters with Imp Grab and Rake have the same statement, its not exclusive of the leopard. Rake says it can't happen when the grapple starts. Improved Grab says that the creature immediately gets to rake. So...yea...

Those creatures are also capable of starting grapple other ways, but they can only use the rake attacks if they started the grapple using improved grab. The ability to rake in the same turn as starting grapple is part of the improved grab special ability, not part of the rake special ability.

That's a simple case of specific trumps generic, and they just happened to not print any monsters with rake (that I know of) that don't also have improved grab.

[Keld Denar]

Except that none of the creatures have Improved Grapple, so starting a grapple in any other way would result in getting whacked on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.

And EVERY creature that has rake has Improved Grab and includes that line. I've scoured all 5 MMs as well as any other book I can find with monsters in it, and they ALL have that line. Its ubiquitous. That sounds pretty general to me.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Melee can't have nice things. :smallfrown:

Well, there are a lot of spellcasting tricks that won't work in my campaigns either. Far more than melee tricks.