What are the Consequences of this Mage Class Feature

[wayfare]

Hey All:

I'm revising my old 3.5 Summoner, I was told that these class feature might have some unexpected consequences. Any feedback would be great!

Extend Conjuration: A 1st level summoner may banish his familiar to extend the duration of a conjuration or creation effect to indefinite. A Summoner must remain within 100 feet of the Conjuration. If the Summoner should leave this radius, this effect ends. The Summoner may end this effect as a swift action. Regardless of the normal duration of this effect, once the Summoner ends this effect, the conjuration/creation crumbles to dust.

While banished, the familiar becomes immaterial and "possesses" the conjuration/creation. While the familiar possesses the effect the familiar is immune to damage and mind-effecting abilities. When this effect ends, the Familiar appears in a square adjacent to the summoner, dazed for 1 round.

Any thoughts?

[SowZ]

I don't see very many problems using this on Summon Monster I. But when you have an extended summon monster VI you should be giving up a little more than a famliar. Here is why... It isn't much of a sacrifice. Not only do many builds have little use for a familiar, based on this feature if a situation arises where the familiar is needed no problem! I can just banish my summoned monster, recall my familiar to finish task X, then the second summoning spell I prepared.

There may be some other issues, but for alternate class features you give up something to get something. I would say, bare minimum, give up the ability to have a familiar to get this feature.

[JaronK]

Extend Conjuration: A 1st level summoner may banish his familiar to extend the duration of a conjuration or creation effect to indefinite. A Summoner must remain within 100 feet of the Conjuration. If the Summoner should leave this radius, this effect ends. The Summoner may end this effect as a swift action. Regardless of the normal duration of this effect, once the Summoner ends this effect, the conjuration/creation crumbles to dust.

While banished, the familiar becomes immaterial and "possesses" the conjuration/creation. While the familiar possesses the effect the familiar is immune to damage and mind-effecting abilities. When this effect ends, the Familiar appears in a square adjacent to the summoner, dazed for 1 round.

Step 1: Major Creation to create as big a block of Obdurium as possible.
Step 2: Use Extended Conjuration
Step 3: Sell it for insane monies
Step 4: Wait a bit before ending the effect and teleporting out.

JaronK

[Sucrose]

This dramatically modifies the power level of a summon spell. It basically gives a class feature roughly equivalent to a mediocre animal companion, which you can swap out in exchange for a spell as the situation warrants.

This might be workable for a focused caster, but if you give this to a caster that can access even all of the Conjuration school, you're basically making Druid 2.0.

[DeAnno]

I think if you want to maintain the fluff of the familiar doing the possessing you should make this a feat requiring that you have a familiar.

As for the creating/selling exploit, you may want to limit this to only making summoned or conjured creatures persist (which makes sense, since the familiar is possessing them.)

[mootoall]

I'd make it limited just to Conjuration (Summoning) spells, so no Conjuration (Creation) shenanigans. In addition, instead of making it indefinite, maybe just allow it to apply Extend Spell to it for free, which stacks (remember, double plus double is triple) with Extend Spell?

[Ravens_cry]

Step 1: Major Creation to create as big a block of Obdurium as possible.
Step 2: Use Extended Conjuration
Step 3: Sell it for insane monies
Step 4: Wait a bit before ending the effect and teleporting out.

JaronK

And assuming that this is not a very 'new' feature in the world, people who deal in large transactions would require those they deal with to step over 100 feet away from the valuables before the transaction can proceed. As a show of good faith, other protections to prevent theft are allowed by the transactee, who will also step with the transactor or in the opposite direction, but equally distant.
And even if you pull this off, you just made some very powerful enemies as their is no way to sell it in more than one chunk. Such people tend to take such acts seriously and have their own resources for dealing with thieves.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I would say it is a bit on the powerful side and an open door for abuse you will regret at some point in the future :smallsmile:.

There is a 3rd party feat for psions that has your Astral Construct stay for 10 minutes. I think this is more along the lines of what is reasonable. You could even make it an hour if you want and have it similar in power level. But indefinite? A bit too much, in my opinion.

[Flickerdart]

As a show of good faith, other protections to prevent theft are allowed by the transactee, who will also step with the transactor or in the opposite direction, but equally distant.
And that's when you swoop in and steal the goods. Bam! :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

And that's when you swoop in and steal the goods. Bam! :smallbiggrin:
You mean your own goods?
This is before any money is handed over and is merely a test to make sure you are not counterfeiting through magic.
Also, when the sale is in bulk materials like this and not a magic item placing the materials in an anti-magic field would another security measure.

[Grendus]

Lemme get this straight. You're creating a class feature that lets you, essentially, trade your familiar for any monster on the Summon Monster tables? And that's the RAI, by the wording you could have your familiar possess any Conjuration(Healing) spells, including those not cast by you. Want a Solar familiar? Have the cleric gate one in. Party needs healing? Toss out a Mass Lesser Vigor and have the familiar possess it until the party is topped up. Heck, it'd be worth a 1 level dip just to let your familiar possess spells. Keep him possessing something immaterial (like a Conjuration(Healing) spell) to keep him safe.

Presuming the familiar can only possess spells from the summoner, it gets a little less imbalanced. I'd need to see the spell list to know for sure. As is, though, it seems really freakin powerful.

[Flickerdart]

No, not your own goods. They're someone else's goods. Or, well, not anymore, because you stole them. As for the AMF? Cheetahs + ride-by attack.

[Ravens_cry]

No, not your own goods. They're someone else's goods. Or, well, not anymore, because you stole them. As for the AMF? Cheetahs + ride-by attack.

So your stealing something from someone that will dissipate if you step more than 100 feet from them?
Great plan that.

[SowZ]

Or, if a summoner with an absurdly large block of Obduirium tries to pull this scam on you, stab them to death and meld their body/body part into the material. Problem solved.

[Flickerdart]

So your stealing something from someone that will dissipate if you step more than 100 feet from them?
Great plan that.
If it would do so, then they wouldn't agree to the ritual to begin with. Your premise is flawed whichever way you slice it.

[Ravens_cry]

If it would do so, then they wouldn't agree to the ritual to begin with. Your premise is flawed whichever way you slice it.
Yes, but we are discussing protection against the implications of this class feature. Besides, you seem to be under the assumption this is taking outside and not in, say, a long narrow corridor in private.

[Flickerdart]

Then there are other things you can do. The point is, there are hilarious things involving cheetahs that can be done and you are being Sir Buzzkillington about them.

[Ravens_cry]

Then there are other things you can do. The point is, there are hilarious things involving cheetahs that can be done and you are being Sir Buzzkillington about them.
What is this thing with cheetahs, are you on some kind of cheetah kick? I am assuming this million gold transaction is happening in a bank, castle or other place designed to keep the wrong people out with various techniques both mundane and magical.

[Tvtyrant]

What is this thing with cheetahs, are you on some kind of cheetah kick? I am assuming this million gold transaction is happening in a bank, castle or other place designed to keep the wrong people out with various techniques both mundane and magical.

No such place is possible; craft contingency: Bank Fleeing! deals with this problem by casting Prismatic Sphere around you when you get 100 ft. from your goods, and then you tele out.

[elonin]

A modified (less powerful) version of this could be the capstone of a prc...

[Ravens_cry]

No such place is possible; craft contingency: Bank Fleeing! deals with this problem by casting Prismatic Sphere around you when you get 100 ft. from your goods, and then you tele out.
And have made an obvious enemy, an obvious, very wealthy enemy (who else could afford to purchase a big a block of Obdurium at once?) , who will inform others and take their own measures.

[JaronK]

And have made an obvious enemy, an obvious, very wealthy enemy (who else could afford to purchase a big a block of Obdurium at once?) , who will inform others and take their own measures.

You're a Wizard who can cast 4th level spells. If they come after you for revenge, kill them and claim self defense... they're just a merchant/retired adventurer/king. You're a Wizard. You can be a bastard. Heck, this would be a great way to assassinate someone when you want them dead but want to make it look like self defense...

Another way to break this is just to create tons of poison with it and keep that poison near you as long as you need. It doesn't require as many spell slots as normal that way, since you can keep it for days.

JaronK

[Tvtyrant]

And have made an obvious enemy, an obvious, very wealthy enemy (who else could afford to purchase a big a block of Obdurium at once?) , who will inform others and take their own measures.

Honestly though, one could make as much money using this trick to actually make useful things. Block of adamant=free adamant weapons/armor that work as long as the party stays in a group.

[Flickerdart]

Works great for Drow-style gear, too. The PCs slay the enemy party and make off with the weapons - which promptly turn into birds and fly away.

[NNescio]

Lemme get this straight. You're creating a class feature that lets you, essentially, trade your familiar for any monster on the Summon Monster tables? And that's the RAI, by the wording you could have your familiar possess any Conjuration(Healing) spells, including those not cast by you. Want a Solar familiar? Have the cleric gate one in. Party needs healing? Toss out a Mass Lesser Vigor and have the familiar possess it until the party is topped up. Heck, it'd be worth a 1 level dip just to let your familiar possess spells. Keep him possessing something immaterial (like a Conjuration(Healing) spell) to keep him safe.

Presuming the familiar can only possess spells from the summoner, it gets a little less imbalanced. I'd need to see the spell list to know for sure. As is, though, it seems really freakin powerful.

Stun Ray (SpC*) = Indefinite Stunning.
Acid Arrow = Arbitrarily high damage to non-immune targets.

Both are Conjuration (Creation) spells. Then there are some BfC staples like Grease, Glitterdust, and the various fog and wall spells...

Conjuration also has some buff spells like Mage Armor (another Creation effect), and the Orbs of X has some rather nasty rider effects if they are allowed to persist.

Yeah, we'll need to see the Summoner's spell list. Even then, a 'persisted' Summon Monster spell of high enough level will still be rather powerful.

*Alternatively, the Dragon version, but that's broken at Spell Level 1.

[Flickerdart]

It gets better when you take Extra Familiar from Dragon Mag, because every extra feat is another Solar.

[Ravens_cry]

You're a Wizard who can cast 4th level spells. If they come after you for revenge, kill them and claim self defense... they're just a merchant/retired adventurer/king. You're a Wizard. You can be a bastard. Heck, this would be a great way to assassinate someone when you want them dead but want to make it look like self defense...

Any society that doesn't have a means of controlling powerful individuals, even if, in this case, the answer is "other wizards", would self-immolate. Such a wealthy individual probably has such on staff or as friends or connections, probably of higher level then you. No, being a wizard does not mean you get to be a bastard, not if you want to live to be an older wizard.

Honestly though, one could make as much money using this trick to actually make useful things. Block of adamant=free adamant weapons/armor that work as long as the party stays in a group.
I like that idea. It has downsides and upsides.

[JaronK]

Any society that doesn't have a means of controlling powerful individuals, even if, in this case, the answer is "other wizards", would self-immolate. Such a wealthy individual probably has such on staff or as friends or connections, probably of higher level then you. No, being a wizard does not mean you get to be a bastard, not if you want to live to be an older wizard.

Sure it does, which is the problem of an unbalanced system. Some small subset of the population has superpowers far exceeding all others (Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers, Druids, etc). As such, they naturally have the power to abuse the weaker types (melees, NPC classes, etc). And yes, when people have such power, they tend to see the weaker folks as being tools, and little else.

Besides, the point was that the guy would be foolish enough to attack the Wizard. This makes it self defense, which usually handles lots of those staff and friends and connections.

Anyway, giving magic users yet one more silly way they can abuse reality is probably not the best idea. At the very least, this ability should only apply to Conjuration (Summoning) as there are many other sorts of Conjuration effects that can be extremely nasty if they last indefinitely.

JaronK

[Stix]

just because i love to play devils advocate:

this also exposes the familiar to all new dangers. If the familiar is possessing a permanent spell (not an item/creature that is conjured) any caster can walk by and counter it = dead familiar. also true of this situation any antimagic field you walk through destroys the spell (not ends it) therefore = dead familiar.

if you do have your familiar take the form of another creature you have to remember that it has just lost the main defense that familiars enjoy: They don't "draw Aggro" if your familiar is now something that poses a threat to enemies they're much more likely to try to kill it.

not sure how this would work but: now that this familiar is commonly a soul flying around (even for a few seconds) it seems like something along the lines of a soul jar would be devastating.

"i summon a blink dog for my familiar to possess"
+
"i use my held action to soul jar the soul of your familiar"
=
blink dog with an expiration date
+
enemy has your familiar hostage

[Ravens_cry]

Sure it does, which is the problem of an unbalanced system. Some small subset of the population has superpowers far exceeding all others (Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers, Druids, etc). As such, they naturally have the power to abuse the weaker types (melees, NPC classes, etc). And yes, when people have such power, they tend to see the weaker folks as being tools, and little else.

Besides, the point was that the guy would be foolish enough to attack the Wizard. This makes it self defense, which usually handles lots of those staff and friends and connections.

And if these connections/friends/staff are also members of this "subset of the population", potentially, and quite likely, of greater ability and training (level) than you? You think the equivalent of a multi-billionaire are just going to let you get away with this, because you happen to wield the powers cosmic?
You think there are not those who are more powerful then a wizard with fourth level spells, even if that person is in the form of a wizard with fifth, or above, level spells?
I do not know what kind of PC-centric universe you play in, but acting like that in any game with consequences, both good and bad, it is a great way to end up dead.

[JaronK]

And if these connections/friends/staff are also members of this "subset of the population", potentially, and quite likely, of greater ability and training (level) than you?

You're a super intelligent Wizard. You're not dumb enough to pick someone who's the favorite pet of someone actually super powerful.


I do not know what kind of PC-centric universe you play in, but acting like that in any game with consequences, both good and bad, it is a great way to end up dead.

You keep saying this merchant will take revenge. Fine. Hat of Disguise. Now he takes revenge with his friends (who didn't see the Wizard in person) targeted at some poor sod. It's not like it's very hard to trick some merchant.

JaronK

[Ravens_cry]

You're a super intelligent Wizard. You're not dumb enough to pick someone who's the favorite pet of someone actually super powerful.

What kind of multi-billionaire equivalent wouldn't have such resources? Heck, if the only powerful people are spellcasters in this setting, they probably are one themselves or are working at their behest. Great, you just pissed off a spellcaster with arcane and temporal power.



You keep saying this merchant will take revenge. Fine. Hat of Disguise. Now he takes revenge with his friends (who didn't see the Wizard in person) targeted at some poor sod. It's not like it's very hard to trick some merchant.

JaronK
An antimagic field in the vault or having a true seeing effect on during negotiations would prevent such disguise shenanigans.
This isn't "some merchant", this is the equvilant of a 19th century robber baron, with money, power, and resources. They not going to stab you in the back in some dark alley, they are going to do much worse.
Your character is not the first wizard, magic has existed since the dawn of civilisation, or earlier, you think such tricks have not been done before?
Your PC is acting like a hijacker trying to smuggle a gun on a plane by putting it in their pocket. Security evolves and unless magic is a completely new thing, countermeasures against it, both other magic and mundane, will also exist.

[JaronK]

What kind of multi-billionaire equivalent wouldn't have such resources? Heck, if the only powerful people are spellcasters in this setting, they probably are one themselves or are working at their behest. Great, you just pissed off a spellcaster with arcane and temporal power.

Why are we dealing with multi-billionaires then? You can do this over and over for 10kgp instead of for billions. I mean come on... you can do this a few times a day, after all.


An antimagic field in the vault or having a true seeing effect on during negotiations would prevent such disguise shenanigans.

Don't do this with people that have that stuff, obviously.


This isn't "some merchant", this is the equvilant of a 19th century robber baron, with money, power, and resources.

Why? Why is our Wizard so stupid as to go after the super multibillionare robber baron? Just go for the rich merchant, obviously.

JaronK

[Ravens_cry]

Why are we dealing with multi-billionaires then? You can do this over and over for 10kgp instead of for billions. I mean come on... you can do this a few times a day, after all.

Doing it multiple times per day just increases your chances of getting caught by other forces. Like, say, a wizard guild that doesn't approve of scabs or breaking guild rules.

Don't do this with people that have that stuff, obviously.
You are assuming they exist, when someone who didn't use basic precautions would have been wiped out long before you got there.



Why? Why is our Wizard so stupid as to go after the super multibillionare robber baron? Just go for the rich merchant, obviously.

JaronK No bank that can be trusted would be without such basic protections. Would you give money to a bank with a cardboard vault?
Since a bank depends on trust by others to remain in business, no such entity would exist. Besides, I am going with the original scenario of a large chunk of super valuable material potentially changing hands.

[Reluctance]

Why? Why is our Wizard so stupid as to go after the super multibillionare robber baron? Just go for the rich merchant, obviously.

Why go through all that trouble, when you could just Charm the merchant, or even kill him and loot his store?

[wayfare]

Well, thanks for the responses!

The class will be a Conjuration specialist, aimed to be competitive with the other tier 3 mages.

Would the ability function better as a capstone?

[NNescio]

Well, thanks for the responses!

The class will be a Conjuration specialist, aimed to be competitive with the other tier 3 mages.

Would the ability function better as a capstone?

What is your spell list? I can't find your class in the homebrew forums.

[JaronK]

Set the ability to be Conjuration: Summoning only and you'll be much better off. There's just too many Conjuration: Creation spells that will do things you REALLY don't want. Think of DoT effects, at the very least.

JaronK

[Ravens_cry]

Even merely Summoning, it is pretty darn powerful at medium to higher levels. "Oh look, you get to give up a pretty pathetic creature who has half your pathetic hitpoints, for some of the most powerful creatures in the game."

[Flickerdart]

Conjuration specialist? Compare the Warmage (evocation), the Beguiler (enchantment, although the peppering of illusion spells helps) and the Dread Necromancer (necromancy), three of the weakest schools in the game, to conjuration, one of the two most powerful. Hell, many if not most wizards focused specialize in conjuration anyway. "Have a free totally badass expendable minion" makes this guy 2/3rds Druid, except his companion is way better.

[Ravens_cry]

Why not have six of them that you call forth from extra-dimensional spaces inside fist sized spheres?

[NNescio]

Why not have six of them that you call forth from extra-dimensional spaces inside fist sized spheres?

Naah, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) that's a Paladin class feature. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0432.html) :smallwink:

[Dragon Star]

Naah, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) that's a Paladin class feature. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0432.html) :smallwink:

I Lol'd :smallbiggrin: