Mathemagician7
2011-07-28, 04:59 PM
Hey playgrounders. I am an optimizer, and I am getting sick of every interesting/wonky build I come up with being overshadowed by the Tier 1 classes. I made up a new rule to try to nerf primary casters a little, and I would appreciate your thoughts.
I think cleric/druid/wizard are ok through at least lvl 5, but by lvl 15 they just can't be compared to. The wizard might even be a little weak for the first few levels. My idea was to come up with a single, relatively simple mechanic which would not interfere with them at low levels, and then delay/impare their higher end spells more and more as the power gap between them and other classes grows.
Here's what I came up with:
to cast a spell two checks need to be made, both against a DC = 3*spell level.
Edit: people keep pointing out that the check is too low to do anything other than waste time with pointless rolls. Assuming the DC were set a little higher, like 3*SL + 5 or even 4*SL - what then?
1 check is a casterlevel check + relevant casting stat mod (wis for divine, cha/int for sorc/wiz).
the other is a spellcraft check.
if either check fails, the action is wasted. If both checks fail, the spell/ spell slot is wasted as well.
Notes:
natural 1s do NOT auto-fail
natural 20s do NOT auto-succeed
you may NOT take 10 on the caster level check.
you may NOT take 10 on the spell craft check during combat/tense situations, (except if you have a special ability like the rogue/exemplar skill mastery which explicitly grants this)
Out of combat, if extra time is spent, you may take 10 on the spellcraft check.
The caster level check takes into account bonuses from things like the granted power of the healing domain (+1 caster level for heal spells) and similar powers.
It also allows for things like practiced caster to add to the check result (for multiclass characters)
Special bonus: If you have previously attempted (but failed) the same spell earlier in the same day, you get a +2 circumstance bonus to succeed on your check (haven't decided which check to add the bonus to, probably caster level). The bonus is +4 if you have successfully cast that spell earlier in the day.
Specialist wizards also add their spellcraft bonus to the spellcraft check for casting spells in their specialty school, just as they would to learn the spell.
Interaction with metamagic:
The checks are made at the base spell level's DC, rather than the 3*level of the spell slot used.
EFFECTS:
this would make metamagic much more practical, even without incantrix/DMM cheese. I always thought it was weird that most spells augmented with metamagic are completely overshadowed by higher level spells, even though you have to spend a feat and (in the case of a spontaneous caster) spend longer casting the 'augmented' spells.
quick examples: shocking grasp --> chain lightning.
CL is a 5th lvl spell if I remember correctly. To get SG anywhere near the effectiveness, you'd need empower or max to raise its damage, spell reach, and chain spell. It's still way worse after all that, but you've spent at least 3 feats and are using at least an 8th level slot . . . hmmm
just look at flame burst (lvl 2) and greater flame burst (lvl 5) from CArc. the 5th level is like a widened, twinned, empowered, heightened 2nd level spell. Something doesn't add up.
Also, casters who use the same spell over and over gain a bonus to succeed, which helps solve the problem of Tier 1 --> tons of power AND versatility. If you specialize, you can cast much more reliably, reducing your versatility. If you stay versatile, you're less likely to succeed (at least on your high level spells) when it counts, lessening your power. This helps balance things.
Bards are virtually unaffected, as their level/max skill ranks pace the DCs of the checks almost exactly, and palladins and rangers won't usually have too much of a problem either (except for the poor paladin having to drop half his skill points into spellcraft).
This also makes lots of PrC that are unplayably (unplayable to a min-maxer anyway) sub-optimal viable, so long as you remember to grab the practiced caster feat, and keep dropping points into spellcraft.
What are your thoughts playgrounders?
Also, on an unrelated note, I thought up a variant stat generation rule:
Pick which stat you're rolling for before each roll, no rerolls. you get to roll 8d6 and keep the best 3 for one roll, 7d6 keep best 3 for another, then 6d6, then 5d6, 4d6, and finally 3d6 keep all for the last one. What do you think?
the average stats yielded are: 15.39, 14.90, 14.27, 13.43, 12.24, 10.50
Not too much higher than the Elite spread, but a lot more unpredictable. You could end up with a strong wizard or a very smart Barbarian - kinda makes things interesting, and it thwarts the heavy optimizers (read: me) a little.
what are your thoughts?
P.S. If you think this is a good rule, how should I handle UMD? I was thinking that the UMD check could replace the caster level part of the check, but what about still requiring the spellcraft check? I don't know - what do you guys think?
I think cleric/druid/wizard are ok through at least lvl 5, but by lvl 15 they just can't be compared to. The wizard might even be a little weak for the first few levels. My idea was to come up with a single, relatively simple mechanic which would not interfere with them at low levels, and then delay/impare their higher end spells more and more as the power gap between them and other classes grows.
Here's what I came up with:
to cast a spell two checks need to be made, both against a DC = 3*spell level.
Edit: people keep pointing out that the check is too low to do anything other than waste time with pointless rolls. Assuming the DC were set a little higher, like 3*SL + 5 or even 4*SL - what then?
1 check is a casterlevel check + relevant casting stat mod (wis for divine, cha/int for sorc/wiz).
the other is a spellcraft check.
if either check fails, the action is wasted. If both checks fail, the spell/ spell slot is wasted as well.
Notes:
natural 1s do NOT auto-fail
natural 20s do NOT auto-succeed
you may NOT take 10 on the caster level check.
you may NOT take 10 on the spell craft check during combat/tense situations, (except if you have a special ability like the rogue/exemplar skill mastery which explicitly grants this)
Out of combat, if extra time is spent, you may take 10 on the spellcraft check.
The caster level check takes into account bonuses from things like the granted power of the healing domain (+1 caster level for heal spells) and similar powers.
It also allows for things like practiced caster to add to the check result (for multiclass characters)
Special bonus: If you have previously attempted (but failed) the same spell earlier in the same day, you get a +2 circumstance bonus to succeed on your check (haven't decided which check to add the bonus to, probably caster level). The bonus is +4 if you have successfully cast that spell earlier in the day.
Specialist wizards also add their spellcraft bonus to the spellcraft check for casting spells in their specialty school, just as they would to learn the spell.
Interaction with metamagic:
The checks are made at the base spell level's DC, rather than the 3*level of the spell slot used.
EFFECTS:
this would make metamagic much more practical, even without incantrix/DMM cheese. I always thought it was weird that most spells augmented with metamagic are completely overshadowed by higher level spells, even though you have to spend a feat and (in the case of a spontaneous caster) spend longer casting the 'augmented' spells.
quick examples: shocking grasp --> chain lightning.
CL is a 5th lvl spell if I remember correctly. To get SG anywhere near the effectiveness, you'd need empower or max to raise its damage, spell reach, and chain spell. It's still way worse after all that, but you've spent at least 3 feats and are using at least an 8th level slot . . . hmmm
just look at flame burst (lvl 2) and greater flame burst (lvl 5) from CArc. the 5th level is like a widened, twinned, empowered, heightened 2nd level spell. Something doesn't add up.
Also, casters who use the same spell over and over gain a bonus to succeed, which helps solve the problem of Tier 1 --> tons of power AND versatility. If you specialize, you can cast much more reliably, reducing your versatility. If you stay versatile, you're less likely to succeed (at least on your high level spells) when it counts, lessening your power. This helps balance things.
Bards are virtually unaffected, as their level/max skill ranks pace the DCs of the checks almost exactly, and palladins and rangers won't usually have too much of a problem either (except for the poor paladin having to drop half his skill points into spellcraft).
This also makes lots of PrC that are unplayably (unplayable to a min-maxer anyway) sub-optimal viable, so long as you remember to grab the practiced caster feat, and keep dropping points into spellcraft.
What are your thoughts playgrounders?
Also, on an unrelated note, I thought up a variant stat generation rule:
Pick which stat you're rolling for before each roll, no rerolls. you get to roll 8d6 and keep the best 3 for one roll, 7d6 keep best 3 for another, then 6d6, then 5d6, 4d6, and finally 3d6 keep all for the last one. What do you think?
the average stats yielded are: 15.39, 14.90, 14.27, 13.43, 12.24, 10.50
Not too much higher than the Elite spread, but a lot more unpredictable. You could end up with a strong wizard or a very smart Barbarian - kinda makes things interesting, and it thwarts the heavy optimizers (read: me) a little.
what are your thoughts?
P.S. If you think this is a good rule, how should I handle UMD? I was thinking that the UMD check could replace the caster level part of the check, but what about still requiring the spellcraft check? I don't know - what do you guys think?