What do you do with a Classic Party? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Ardantis

2011-07-28, 06:59 PM

noparlpf

2011-07-28, 07:02 PM

What do you do with this level one party?

Elf Wizard
Halfling Rogue
Human Fighter
Dwarf Cleric
Gnome Bard

They all start out in a tavern somewhere, but where do they end up?

I'd say straight up Archmage for Wizard; I have no idea what happens to rogues; dungeoncrasher, tripping and charging for the fighter (maybe with a one-dip into Barb for Whirling Frenzy and Spiritual Lion Totem Pounce); Cleric stays cleric, right? What do you PrC or multiclass to?; Bard is all about Sublime Chord, I figure.

I'm trying to get a big picture of both character and party growth- where other players see these classic characters going, and what kind of characters (and party) they turn in to.

Obviously, at some point they kill a dragon.

Edit: Ooh, and a gelatinous cube screws them over at a low level.

Also Beholders. Lurkers Above and Below. Modrons. Open up the first edition monster manual and restat everything to 3.5 that wasn't officially revised. First edition had some excellent critters. (And most of them don't exist anymore. :smallfrown:)

Salanmander

2011-07-28, 07:05 PM

What do you do with this level one party?

Elf Wizard
Halfling Rogue
Human Fighter
Dwarf Cleric
Gnome Bard

They all start out in a tavern somewhere, but where do they end up?

I'd say straight up Archmage for Wizard; I have no idea what happens to rogues; dungeoncrasher, tripping and charging for the fighter (maybe with a one-dip into Barb for Whirling Frenzy and Spiritual Lion Totem Pounce); Cleric stays cleric, right? What do you PrC or multiclass to?; Bard is all about Sublime Chord, I figure.

I'm trying to get a big picture of both character and party growth- where other players see these classic characters going, and what kind of characters (and party) they turn in to.

The cleric should probably actually go Radiant Servant of Pelor if the is the classic party. Sure they can pound things with a mace if need be, but their primary role is healing, buffing, and general support.

Greenish

2011-07-28, 07:13 PM

They all start out in a tavern somewhere, but where do they end up?They end up in the ditch after the PCs ambush and mug them. :smalltongue:

Tvtyrant

2011-07-28, 07:16 PM

The Gnome Bard goes into the shadow conjuration class and becomes as strong as a wizard, the rogue goes into spellwarp sniper and other casting Prcs, and the Fighter becomes a Dungeoncrasher and then dips Barb into Bear Warrior for the boost to strength.

Ardantis

2011-07-28, 08:44 PM

noparlpf

2011-07-28, 08:47 PM

I love the bit about the gelatinous cube, that happened to me once. Even worse, I was a frenzied berserker and it sent me into an impotent frenzy, suspended in gelatinous cubiness. Kind of funny, in retrospect.

Radiant Servant of Pelor sounds perfect. That is so what the cleric does.

Tvtyrant, you are so jaded and curmudgeonly it is bordering on the pathological. Not everyone needs to become a caster!

Although, a magical sniping rogue, a shadowy and mysterious GNOME, and a bear sound like a pretty hilarious party.

I noticed that nobody has any suggestions for the wizard, though.

I thought somebody suggested Archmage.

I have always wanted to play an awakened bear. (Actually, I wanted to play an awakened gelatinous cube before that. But the DM estimated that it would have a +5 LA on top of its RHD.) Somebody should come up with the LA for that.

Tvtyrant

2011-07-28, 09:05 PM

Tvtyrant, you are so jaded and curmudgeonly it is bordering on the pathological.
Can I sig this please?

Eldariel

2011-07-28, 09:07 PM

Wizard would probably go Wizard/Mage of the Arcane Order/Archmage for a truly classic generalist approach.

Fighter would realize he typoed his class name and go Warblade/Eternal Blade.

Rogue would probably frankly stay Rogue; there's no way to really improve upon what base Rogue does without giving up something else it offers. Guess we could make him Factotum though.

Cleric, yeah, Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor/Contemplative-or-Divine Disciple (if wanting to finish all PRCs for neatness).

Bard would be Bard/Virtuoso/Sublime Chord, aka. The Real Bard.

And yea, Warblade and Rogue would be worlds behind the rest in power; c'est la vie. They do what those archetypes do very well, though, and are probably the most appropriate ways of going about the classes (though Factotum vs. Rogue is a matter of opinion).

My idea of a classic AD&D Fighter isn't a tripper or a dungeoncrasher or a charger. Warblade does the classic "beating people up while soaking up hits and being in the way"-thing extremely well and while he can go for something gimmicky, he isn't required to. His base ability set is just plain solid.

And MotAO/Archmage is simply a natural extension of a Wizard's base abilities on a metamagical level; learning to more freely manipulate magic as he grows more powerful (able to cast spells with far lesser preparation than normal at a cost, able to modify the base spells on the fly and so on).

And Cleric/Radiant Servant makes for an Undead-blasting, Support-magic chucking, asskicking machine.

And Bard/Virtuoso/SC is just a Bard with a wider repertoire; the ultimate Master Of All Trades.

gkathellar

2011-07-28, 09:25 PM

Screw over everyone but the wizard with a Rust Monster. DO IT.

noparlpf

2011-07-28, 09:28 PM

Screw over everyone but the wizard with a Rust Monster. DO IT.

Pelor save us. Rust Monsters. Just...just no. That's too cruel.
I had an entire party screwed over by rust monsters once. Everyone but the druid. It was traumatic.

gkathellar

2011-07-28, 09:45 PM

Pelor save us. Rust Monsters. Just...just no. That's too cruel.
I had an entire party screwed over by rust monsters once. Everyone but the druid. It was traumatic.

The rust monster: literally the only monster that a monk is good at fighting. It's why monks exist.

noparlpf

2011-07-28, 09:47 PM

The rust monster: literally the only monster that a monk is good at fighting. It's why monks exist.

I've seen some decent unarmed Fighters, and some decent armed Monks. Yes, I did in fact say "decent" and "Fighter" and "Monk" in the same sentence. Yes, by-the-books Fighters and Monks can be decent. Nowhere near "Tier 1", but they can hold their own.
Heck, the Monk took down all kinds of things in our party. Leopard Catfolk monk, using Fleshgrinding axes, large size, Combat Reflexes and Robilar's gambit for extra attacks.

Archpaladin Zousha

2011-07-28, 10:03 PM

Hooray an' up she rises, hooray an' up she...wait, this isn't about playing mean pranks on them while they're plastered?

Oh, sorry. :smallbiggrin:

Really, I can't say where they'd end up. Too many variables. You could literally take a party in any direction you choose. You wanna send them over the mountains to your fantasy version of the Far East? Go for it. You want them to slog through a fog-shrouded country populated by more vampires, werewolves and eldritch abominations than a Hammer film? Go for it. You want them to find themselves transported to the modern world for hilarious anachronisms and hijinks? Go for it!

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2011-07-28, 10:04 PM

The Elf Wizard should use the Elf Generalist substitution level or specialize in Conjuration. If a generalist, he should get a hummingbird familiar and the Elf Wizard 3 sub level for +8 initiative, and he'd better take that Mindbender 1 dip. If a Conjurer he should have Abrupt Jaunt and grab a few levels of Master Specialist. In either case, Paragnostic Apostle is a great choice, and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil has some nice prerequisite overlaps with Archmage. In the early levels he can use a bow when he's conserving or out of spells.

The Halfling Rogue should go TWF, Weapon Finesse, Craven, and the prerequisites to dip Shadowdancer. Definitely get max UMD and throw around low-level crowd controls like Web. Get Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) so he always has a flanking partner.

The Fighter had better use Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), Physical Prowess (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a), and Dungeoncrasher, otherwise fighter level 3 is dumb level, thog not take. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) Use Jotunbrud or Enlarge Person + Permanency to get Knock-Back, pick up Never Outnumbered and Imperious Command, and he may be worth keeping around. He too could have Wild Cohort, considering they benefit from bardic music.

The Dwarf Cleric could go Radiant Servant of Pelor along with Morninglord or Sacred Exorcist. Otherwise probably get Divine Oracle 4 and Contemplative 10. Paragnostic Apostle could also be useful for him.

The Gnome Bard should be a Stonehunter Gnome from Dragon Magic, so he qualifies for Dragonfire Inspiration. Wild Cohort is a good option for him as well, especially if you use Savage Bard. He can use a bow and stay back with the wizard, since he'll still benefit from inspire courage with ranged attacks. A Mindbender dip, a Warblade or Crusader dip, and Sublime Chord into Abjurant Champion is all highly recommended.

Ardantis

2011-07-28, 10:06 PM

TvTyrant, sig that by all means.

So, Master of the Arcane Order and Archmage are classic/perfect for the wizard.

Virtuoso/Sublime Chord is the Real Bard.

Rogues are... rogues. I guess you're right about that. Kinda like mushrooms.

Cleric to Divine Servant and maybe some planar PrC- perfect.

The fighter is getting some serious dislike here. I find that there is plenty of room in the fighter class to appropriate the more powerful feats (Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Robilar's Gambit, Tripping/Spiked Chain) without being gimmicky. Of course, the Warblade is more versatile, and the fighter basically has to stack effects so that they all happen at the same time, but I don't find that to be uninteresting.

Then again, you can always go a little human paragon to grab Tumble as a class skill, and take a bunch of fighter and maybe ranger to build a TWF to bounce around and provide more tactical damage.

The rest of these builds, however, power up and expand the character while making it even more like "it." In the Cleric and the Wizards' cases, the builds also open up a lot of great story hooks (planar and magic stuff, mostly.)

Great job guys!

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2011-07-28, 10:13 PM

You don't have to multiclass to get Tumble as a class skill, just trade Ride for it (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a).

JKTrickster

2011-07-28, 10:28 PM

Taelas

2011-07-28, 10:32 PM

I assume you want their roles to stay the same at level 20 (more or less, anyway) as they are at level 1?

Eldariel

2011-07-28, 10:43 PM

Hmmm...I don't agree with the Rogue part.

I think the Whisperknife PrC or even things like Invisible Blade can often be a good PrC that expands upon the class' skillset.

Or even the Daring Outlaw feat! Used with the right balance, this keeps the "rogue feel" while expanding further on their agility and combat capabilities. Definitely worth looking into to!

But see, all of those lose something Rogue. Invisible Blade offers a terribly small allotment of skillpoints and restricts you from using e.g. Hand Crossbows, classic Rogue-weapons. It also doesn't add that much of substance since the Free Feint is still limited to once per turn. PRCing out of Rogue also gives up access to certain Rogue Special Abilities (which have a few great options), just the type of stuff you look in high level PRCs (basically, Rogue has the Rogue-equivalent of Archmage built into it).

Whisperknife is actually pretty close but I'd rather have the Rogue Special Abilities (at the very least Hide in Plain Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) from Wilderness Rogue, and Skill Mastery) and the extra skillpoints. And Daring Outlaw, while cool, costs you 3-4 levels of skills for basically extra precision damage; it's much more of a Swashbuckler fix than a Rogue-fix (though it does get you to 16 BAB relatively painlessly).

No, I maintain that you can never painlessly PRC out of Rogue; out of all the Core-classes, you stand the most to lose (since spellcasting can be advanced by the secondary classes; Bards lose songs, Barbarians lose irrelevancies and Rage improvement or two, Monks lose nothing of substance except Greater Flurry and UA Dice, Rangers do lose their superlate Hide in Plain Sight but feh and Druids...what's a PRC? Oh yeah, Planar Shepherd.) and gain the least out of the typical PRCs. My typical Rogues only take three levels of Swordsage to make sneak attacking easier and that's about it far as multiclassing goes (though getting proper Hide in Plain Sight would be nice; pity Shadowdancer has such terrible prerequisites and sucks after level 1).

TThe fighter is getting some serious dislike here. I find that there is plenty of room in the fighter class to appropriate the more powerful feats (Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Robilar's Gambit, Tripping/Spiked Chain) without being gimmicky. Of course, the Warblade is more versatile, and the fighter basically has to stack effects so that they all happen at the same time, but I don't find that to be uninteresting.

But that is gimmicky. Even if you have two gimmicks, it's still Charge And AOO; and that's it. This is not the Master-At-Arms fighter from the days of yore Fighter nor any classic fantasy archetype that would fall under Fighter. This isn't a Fighter who can pick up a bow or a dagger depending on what the situation calls for, and slay a Dragon with it. You shouldn't have to be a charger or a tripper or an AoO machine; Fighter should only mean "this is a guy who is capable of taking and dishing out punishment".

Then you could have the gimmicks as options. Warblade, however, does this General Fighter-thing I want out of the Fighter-class properly. Fighter itself does not. I can optimize a Fighter to be decent, even good (Imperious Zhentarim Command + Shock Trooper Knockback Dungeoncrasher with Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment & Thicket of Blades is a rather solid shell already, for example - brutal Intimidate against the weak-willed, exceedingly solid charges and smashing to the walls, state-of-art area control) for many games, but I can't optimize a Fighter to be a fighter. Hell, every decent Fighter is best off using Guisarme, Spiked Chain or a comparable weapon. I can, however, optimize a Warblade to be a fighter hence my preference.

Ardantis

2011-07-30, 01:40 AM

Ooh, great replies.

LOVE the Tumble substitution for Ride. Certainly makes TWF Rangers in particular a more viable secondary melee class.

I totally agree with the comments on Wizards and Elf substitution levels, it fits the "classic" swiss army knife wizard perfectly.

And yes, for some reason, Rogues DO lose something with almost every PrC, and Daring Outlaw (a feat I am in LOVE with,) is more for creating a precision-damage-based secondary melee, even with only 6 levels of Swashbuckler. You make an okay skillmonkey, but you still commit very heavily to social and mobility skills because they are in-class for both, and take feats and skill feats geared almost completely towards sneak attack and mobility. I built the character as an NPC for a game once, very enjoyable, but not your standard dungeon-dwelling thieving rogue by any means (mine was an alter-ego bearing noble who went by "The Prancing Whirlwind."

Now the Fighter. What is the fighter for?

I love the Man-At-Arms take on the fighter. I have seen it approached several ways.

In Iron Heroes, Monte Cook's alternate "hardcore" 3.5 system, the Man-At-Arms class had about twice the feats of a fighter, and had access to feats for many different weapon types that were very powerful. However, the feats were completely wasted when using the wrong weapon, and did not synergize. That made the Man-At-Arms kinda useless in a game full of specialists, because he could not apply his feats to alternate weapons.

The basic DnD fighter suffers from the same problems. Two of the strongest melee feats, Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Improved Critical, only apply to one weapon. Therefore, it might be better to just take general feats and go with the best weapon at hand. However, this is not particularly versatile, and does not apply to exotic weapons. So, you end up having to PrC out to weird classes just to get basic stuff that you wish fighters had anyways.

The Warblade gets Weapon Aptitude, and can apply his weapon-specific feats to any weapon AFTER AN HOUR OF PRACTICE. Way closer to what the "man-at-arms" fighter should be all about, but still not able to switch up on the fly. I won't debate the value of maneuvers vs. feats, but they do make the character much more versatile.

In 3.0, the Exotic Weapon Master prestige class from I think Masters of the Wild gained proficiency in ALL EXOTIC WEAPONS. Now we're talking. An EWM could spend his turn tossing bolas, lassoing, or using all kinds of great weapon effects, switching it up based on need. Quick Draw was the only really necessary feat to make this completely wonderful, and in line with what I think you're envisioning, Eldariel.

The "aptitude" effector from ToB allows a weapon to use any of the available weapon-specific feats on them specifically, which was a strong step in the right direction, but I wish there was a way to do this through build rather than gear.

The only way to get proficiency with all exotic weapons in 3.5, as far as I know, is to take a level in Master of Masks from Complete Scoundrel and choose the Gladiator Mask. I've heard this has been used to great effect with Factotums, who add their Int bonus to all Dex and Str checks in combat (such as for bolas, lassos, nets, and all kinds of other good stuff.) However, this doesn't really "feel" like a fighter.

So, I'm at a loss. But I do share your image of the "classic" fighter a someone who is willing to use mercenary tactics to get the job done. Someone who can use weapon-specific feats with any weapon, and is proficient in all exotic weapons, on the fly if necessary. Then I could see the fighter who took down a dragon with a dagger.

Draz74

2011-07-30, 01:58 AM

I think there's also a Binder Vestige that makes you proficient with all exotic weapons. But that feels even less Fighter-ish than a Factotum/MoM.

Ardantis

2011-07-30, 01:17 PM

I think there's also a Binder Vestige that makes you proficient with all exotic weapons. But that feels even less Fighter-ish than a Factotum/MoM.

I know, right?

Eldariel

2011-07-30, 05:04 PM

I know, right?

Yo. Warblade is Fighter in all but a name, and even that's an unfortunate oversight on WoTC's part. Just go for it. :smallwink: Though, if we really must make this work, we can simply start Fighter 6 or so and then head into Warblade for all the goodies as a "Prestige Class" after pillaging Fighter for everything worthwhile.

Ardantis

2011-07-31, 09:28 AM

F that. I'm totally going to start a thread on Fighter Alternate Class Features including EWP in all exotic weapons and something like Aptitude for better feat-vantage.

And yes, I love Warblades (in theory), although I have never played one. I just feel that the ToB characters either replace classic classes totally, or seem kind of out-of-place, especially when going for that "classic" vibe.

I would really love to play a game with the core magic classes and the ToB melee classes.

And Eldariel, thanks again for helping me see the fighter in a way that makes more sense than a charger/tripper/AoO machine.

Mezmote

2011-07-31, 02:40 PM

I agree that the Warblade (with the right maneuver and stance selection + weapons) will feel and work like a classic fighter. I vote Warblade =)

I love the way the "classic" wizard is turning out. Wizard 5/MotAo 10/Archmage 5 looks and feels solid.

For the cleric I'd do right as you said earlier. Cleric 6/Radiant servant of Pelor 10/XXX 4. Any suggestions for feats on this one? I'd probably take Augmented Healing and Extend spell myself. To make him work as a great healer with minimum effort.

For some reason, I like the Swift Ambusher for the rogue part. 3 levels in scout gets the halfling up to speed, and with TWF + TW pounce you can tumble around and strike twice after flanking someone for double SA and Skirmish.

And the Bard is perfect. But what kind of spells would you focus on in the Sublime Chord case?

Anyway, I've tried to roll all these characters up for the sheer amusement it could bring. Seems like a fun group to play indeed.

noparlpf

2011-07-31, 02:43 PM

For the cleric I'd do right as you said earlier. Cleric 6/Radiant servant of Pelor 10/XXX 4. Any suggestions for feats on this one? I'd probably take Augmented Healing and Extend spell myself. To make him work as a great healer with minimum effort.

Domain Spontaneity. (I don't remember if this is a feat or an ACF. I think it's a feat.)

Psyren

2011-07-31, 04:44 PM

They end up in the ditch after the PCs ambush and mug them. :smalltongue:

Basically this

Partysan

2011-07-31, 05:55 PM

No one takes Rogue20. No one. Make it Rogue19/X1, but no one takes Rogue20.