[3.5/PF] Tier 3 Magic Fix (PEACH)

[Curious]

Magic is a problem. Depending on which level you play at, it is either too scarce to matter (low levels), or too overbearing for anybody else to matter (all other levels). The sheer power and versatility of high level spells is in large part to blame for this, but so is the sheer number of spells available to high level spellcasters. So, in an attempt to remedy this problem, I've slapped together the following alternate system:

A spellcaster has a certain number of spell levels available to her every day, with the number being dependent on level. At the start of the day, the spellcaster can prepare any of her spells known, as long as their cumulative spell levels do not exceed the number available to the spellcaster.
Ex. A 5th level spellcaster has 8 spell levels, and knows spells of up to 3rd level. She may choose to prepare two 3rd level spells, as well as one 2nd level spell, but she may not prepare three 3rd level spells, as their combined level would be larger than her available spell levels.

Once a spell is cast, it has a 'cool-down' period equal to its level in rounds, but after the cool-down period is over, the spell may be expended once again.
Ex. If a spellcaster has just expended a 2nd level spell, she cannot use it again next round, or the round after that, but on any subsequent rounds she may use the spell again.
(This is the part I'm a little leery of; infinite spells are still pretty powerful. I think we need some kind of restriction on the number of spells that can be cast every day. Some kind of Spell Points pool, perhaps?)

The spellcaster gains spells known as a Sorceror, only without the delayed progression.

Spells like Wish or Shades that can copy other spell effects are not on the spell list at all.

Spell level progression is:

1st Level: 2
2rd Level: 3
3rd Level: 5
4th Level: 6
5th Level: 8
etc.

So, thoughts, criticism, or opinions are welcome. Please tell me what I messed up.:smallsmile:

[SowZ]

Magic is a problem. Depending on which level you play at, it is either too scarce to matter (low levels), or too overbearing for anybody else to matter. The sheer power and versatility of high level spells is in large part to blame for this, but so is the sheer number of spells available to high level spellcasters. So, in an attempt to remedy this problem, I've slapped together the following alternate system:

A spellcaster has a certain number of spell levels available to her every day, with the number being dependent on level. At the start of the day, the spellcaster can prepare any of her spells known, as long as their cumulative spell levels do not exceed the number available to the spellcaster.
Ex. A 5th level spellcaster has 8 spell levels, and knows spells of up to 3rd level. She may choose to prepare two 3rd level spells, as well as one 2nd level spell, but she may not prepare three 3rd level spells, as their combined level would be larger than her available spell levels.

Once a spell is cast, it has a 'cool-down' period equal to its level in rounds, but after the cool-down period is over, the spell may be expended once again.
Ex. If a spellcaster has just expended a 2nd level spell, she cannot use it again next round, or the round after that, but on any subsequent rounds she may use the spell again.
(This is the part I'm a little leery of; infinite spells are still pretty powerful. I think we need some kind of restriction on the number of spells that can be cast every day. Some kind of Spell Points pool, perhaps?)

The spellcaster gains spells known as a Sorceror, only without the delayed progression.

Spells like Wish or Shades that can copy other spell effects are not on the spell list at all.

Spell level progression is:

1st Level: 2
2rd Level: 3
3rd Level: 5
4th Level: 6
5th Level: 8
etc.

So, thoughts, criticism, or opinions are welcome. Please tell me what I messed up.:smallsmile:

I don't think it is perfect, but I think it is an improvement. I am willing to try it out next time I run a game with casters in it.

[Curious]

Hey, great! I'm glad you think it's worth something. :smallbiggrin:

[Quellian-dyrae]

This is pretty interesting. To be honest, I think its options are too tightly restricted to fit Tier 3, but I think you may have hit on a great set of rules for bringing a well-balanced caster into a Tier 4 party. You can do only a few things, and you can't spam them within the encounter, but you can basically keep doing them all day and hey, they're spells, so they should be reasonably useful if you choose them well.

There are still going to be some unbalanced things in there. Polymorph and Planar Binding and the other usual suspects, but that's mainly just because those effects are so broken.

[Curious]

Well, seeing as I'm trying to balance magic here, I don't think it's unreasonable to simply ban the more broken spells, or import nerfed versions like Pathfinders Beast/Plant/Etc. Shape. If you feel it is too restricted to fit into tier 3, perhaps raising the number of spell levels gained to 2 per level might help? That would allow for more options, which is what tier 3 is all about.

[gkathellar]

I like it. I don't know that you've solved the problem (I'm pretty sure a 20th level wizard can still solve most any fight with thirty-five spell levels, and this only marginally reduces CoDZilla's power), but this is really effective.

I do think you should increase the total spell levels somewhat, if only for the sake of non-exploitative casters, and if you're doing this you'd probably want to remove the CL caps from a lot of lower-level spells. How is metamagic going to function?

[Curious]

Actually, it would be 30 levels at level 20 (confusion, ahoy!), but I see your point.

If I were to increase spell levels, I would probably just rule that you gained 2 levels per level, rather than 2 at odd levels and 1 on evens. 40 spell levels is enough for nearly any purpose, I think.

I haven't given metamagic much thought, but I suppose it would work as normal, increasing spell levels consumed.

[gkathellar]

Cool. Did you have a plan for bonus spells for high ability modifiers, or are you cutting those entirely?

[Curious]

I think restricting bonus spells is the best way to go about it, otherwise you end up with a wizard, only with less spells per day. Probably I would go the Pathfinder way and give players a choice of different bonus spell sets to choose from.

[Domriso]

A potential option for reducing the spam rate is that, either in addition to or instead of, the recharge rate, you have the spells deal that much nonlethal damage to the caster. Since nonlethal damage heals at an hourly rate, it's something that can be regained, but if they spam the spells too much, it could be disastrous (as once you have nonlethal damage equal to your current health, you are knocked unconscious).

Now, an obvious problem with this would be healing spells, but an easy fix for that would be to have cure spells not heal nonlethal damage as well as lethal damage, or if you really want to be an evil DM, you could have cure spells convert lethal damage into nonlethal damage. That makes healing useful, but not an instantaneous perfect solution, even for fighting characters.

I'm an evil DM, by the by. It makes combat way more scary for the players.

[jiriku]

IMO the game worked better in 1e and 2e when a high Int granted you neither bonus spells nor a better save DC. If you're going to do a systemic overhaul, best to toss bonus spells in the trash.

Infinite spells will trip you up, for two reasons:
long-duration buffs can easily be cast on all party members outside of combat, so a spellcaster can easily give bull's strength or conviction or somesuch to everyone in the party ll day long beginning at level 3. This allows a caster to buff self and party with a set of always-on boosts, while still retaining one or two good 1st-level spells for combat. Probably not what you were aiming for.
certain spells reshape the game fundamentally when used at will. A spellcaster who can spam wall of stone and fabricate can build a keep overnight. A spellcaster who can spam disintigrate can tear it down even more quickly.

Cutting durations, especially on spells with a duration of 10 min./level, would help immensely as it would greatly reduce the return for stacking buffs. However, that would be a very labor-intensive task, as you'd need to look at half the spells in the game and re-assess what durations they should have. And then you and your players would have to consult your houserules constantly when preparing and casting spells to make sure they're using the correct duration.

[Curious]

Yes, infinite spells certainly would be a bit of mess with buffs. That's why I'm contemplating adding some new rule to limit the number of spells available per day. Perhaps something like, 'any prepared spell can only be cast a number of times per day equal to 1/2 your caster level, minimum 1.' Maybe not the smoothest way to do it, but I'm a bit stumped for ideas right now.

[gkathellar]

Maybe put a cap on the number of buffs a character can have on them? Something like spell tolerance in M:tAw, where buffing spells over a certain limit have very short durations.

[jiriku]

Honestly, if there was a "quick fix" to the magic balance problem in 3.5, the community would probably already have discovered and adopted it some time in the last 8 years. Because spells vary widely in power and effect, spellcasting classes vary widely in focus and style, and some spells are very acceptable while others are almost meant for abuse, I doubt that it's possible to devise a simple global change to the casting mechanic that would address the issue. It's like trying to solve the world's drug problems with a "just say no" campaign.