PF Summoner stacking with Dragon Disciple

[grarrrg]

I would appreciate some thoughts/input/clarifications on the following:


Wouldn't the Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner) make a better 'melee' entry into Dragon Disciple (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/dragon-disciple) than the Sorc? (specifically the Synthesist Summoner)

At first glance it seems like a slam dunk, the Summoner has better HP, and better Bab than the Sorc. You'd also gain the ability to wear light armor with no penalty. You would lose in the number and selection of spells, but Summoners are roughly equal spell-power wise with Sorcerers anyway. You would also have slower/worse bloodline powers, but this is fairly minor.

But then comes the Stacking issues.
(NOTE: both classes can receive LOTS of different bonuses, I'm just listing the ones most likely to conflict)
Dragon Disciples gain a total of +4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, and +3 Nat Armor. They also receive
Draconic Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/draconic-bloodline) powers (up to level 10), that grant Claw attacks, Energy Resistance, +Nat Armor, and a Breath Weapon.
Let's stop here a second, the rules say
Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (...) except other natural armor bonuses.
So if the DD is gaining a Nat Armor bonus from Bloodline, then WHY do they have a (slightly faster) Nat Armor progression from levels as well?

A Synthesist Summoner, while their Eidolon is summoned, has their Physical scores REPLACED by the Eidolon's scores, gains Temp hp equal to what a standalone Eidolon's would be, and receives their Eidolon's (Nat) Armor bonus as well.

While the Eidolon is summoned, the DD STR bonus from is effectively garbage, the DD Con bonus still (??) applies to the Characters HP, but nothing else. We now have THREE conflicting Nat Armor bonuses.
The Breath Weapon and Energy resistance from Bloodline shouldn't be a problem, but how do the Claw attacks interact with the Eidolon's natural attacks?

So, is Summoner a good choice for DD? Or just better to skip it?

[Towa]

I don't think that it would necessarily be more optimal than a sorcerer, because I think that the difference in melee capabilities aren't big enough make up for the fact that you're missing out on the sorcerer's spell list, and the head start you get on the draconic blood line. That being said, it would be pretty cool, and could probably work quite well from a fluff perspective.

(EDIT) Your player race list is super helpful. Thanks :smallsmile:

[NamelessNPC]

The nat armor from DD explicitly stacks with other nat armor bonus.

The CON bonus would not apply for a Synthesist because CON is replaced with the eidolon's value, IIRC.

In fact, normal summoner may be better to enter DD. With the STR and CON bonuses and the eidolon you get pretty much the wildshaped druid+companion vibe in a not totally overpowered fashion (as opposed to the real druid + companion)

[ericgrau]

The main reason to go into DD is melee, meaning you couldn't take more than 4 levels of summoner and you'd want to wear heavy armor if possible. There are many ways to get marginally more HP than sorcerer, but the ability to use wizard/sorcerer wands and staffs is very nice. The summoner's spell list doesn't quite cover it all.

I see pathfinder added better spell progression to DD but as you still don't have full casting and since starting as a full caster to meet the pre-reqs makes for a bad character it seems more like adding bait to the trap than anything. I mean a full caster gains a little HP and some non-touch AC even though they dumped AC long ago. And they lose caster levels. Meh. Even on a summoner I don't think the HP is worth it.

So DD is still for melee, but as long as you have some caster progression you might as well use it. Here's a list of level 1-5 spells without somatic components, i.e. castable in armor by anyone, pulled from my notes:
Level 0: Flare, Light
Level 1: Feather Fall, Hold Portal, True Strike, Ventriloquism
Level 2: Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Knock
Level 3: Displacement, Tongues, Suggestion
Level 4: Dimension Door, Lesser Geas, Shout
Level 5: Contact Other Plane, Teleport

I wouldn't use anything with a save but there are some good buffs and utility in there. Don't forget wands and staffs have no spell failure due to armor on all spells and you can use spells of any level, regardless of your own caster level.

[grarrrg]

The nat armor from DD explicitly stacks with other nat armor bonus.

The CON bonus would not apply for a Synthesist because CON is replaced with the eidolon's value, IIRC.

Missed that part about DD's Level Armor bonus, still leaves out Bloodline and Eidolon-shape stacking though (minor).
A LOT of the Synthesist's abilities are glossed over and require some interpretation, especially because many attributes of the Eidolon must be calculated as if it were still separate. HP for example, you "gain the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points".
Does the Eidolon's CON score apply to the char's existing HP? Or is the base CON still used for char HP? The closest example would be Druid Wildshape from 3.5, you get the new CON score for things like skill checks and Fort mod's, but it does NOT affect your hp.



The main reason to go into DD is melee, meaning you couldn't take more than 4 levels of summoner,....the ability to use wizard/sorcerer wands and staffs is very nice. The summoner's spell list doesn't quite cover it all.

Actually, you can take 8 levels of Summoner and still reach 16 Bab, because you DON'T need to take the last 2 levels of Dragon Disciple. You save a lost Bab and lost Caster level, and the bonuses are easily replicated through Evolutions (Flight, Blindsense, 'dragon form')

I agree the Summoner has a more restricted spell list, BUT it has access to just about every Buff you'd ever want/need, and a fair selection of debuff and utility spells as well. Of special note are the "Evolution Surge" line of spells, which allow you to get the ability you need, when you need it.

[ericgrau]

So -1 BAB and you still lose caster levels and you're still forced to wear light armor rather than heavy. That'd be an ok gish I suppose, except your Eidolon stops advancing and summoner only goes up to 6th level spells so it's not keeping up with, say, an eldritch knight. That's simply way too much to lose. What that leaves you at is fragile melee with ho-hum casting. The eldritch knight is a little more vulnerable, but at least he gets high level spells.

[Paul H]

Hi

Couple things to remember:
1) Synthesist's Nat Armour, Claw Attacks, etc are Racial Bonuses
2) Dragon Disciple bobuses are Class bonuses, so they stack.

The debate re wearing armour in Synthesist Eidolon form is onging, but looks as if you can't use armour in Eidolon form. (You can wear it, just not benefit).

Nat Armour, however does stack because it's from 2 different sources.

Thanks
Paul H

[grarrrg]

So -1 BAB and you still lose caster levels and you're still forced to wear light armor rather than heavy. That'd be an ok gish I suppose, except your Eidolon stops advancing and summoner only goes up to 6th level spells so it's not keeping up with, say, an eldritch knight. That's simply way too much to lose. What that leaves you at is fragile melee with ho-hum casting. The eldritch knight is a little more vulnerable, but at least he gets high level spells.

EK is generally better than DD, but that's not the point.
DD oozes with flavor, you 'become' a dragon as you level up in it, yes it suffers a little from MAD and action economy and the fact that it's more melee focused while only giving 3/4 Bab. And the +2Int makes little sense when you need to be SPONTANEOUS (Cha) to enter the class in the first place. BUT YOU BECOME A DRAGON!

EK on the other hand has less flavor going for it.
You're a Wizard that doesn't suck with a sword. Over simplified? Yes. Still true? Also yes, stay with me people.

You can Optimize a Dragon Disciple build.
But you cannot use Dragon Disciple in an optimized build.
Go ahead, Google around. How many game-smashingly optimized builds use Dragon Disciple? Now check how many optimized builds use EK.
Kind of disproportionate huh?
Keep in mind I am NOT saying DD is bad, just that it's not all about power/efficiency.