Can an octopus touch attack to start a grapple?

[coffeedragon]

in our current 3.5 campaign I'm playing a 13th level druid.
My favorite trick is to wildshape into a giant octopus and grapple enemies to death or pin them while the rest of the party takes them apart.

I have taken Improved Grapple and the Abberant Blood feat that gives +3 on grapple checks.
My question is this: if an octopus can start a grapple a a free action if it strikes with a tentacle attack (improved grab) and if it is correct that normally, starting agrapple is a melee touch attack, can I forego the strike damage and make all 8 tentacle attacks melee touch attacks, dealing constrict damage if each wins its grapple check?

[Urpriest]

No. A tentacle attack is not a touch attack, it is a tentacle attack.

[sonofzeal]

Any character can attempt to initiate a grapple as an attack action with a melee touch attack.

SRD:

Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

I see nothing preventing exactly what you're talking about.

[Tvtyrant]

I would argue it gets constrict on a successful grapple check, so yes.

[Siosilvar]

No. A tentacle attack is not a touch attack, it is a tentacle attack.

However, you can use any melee attack to make a grapple check. So yes. But you don't deal tentacle damage. I'd have to recheck the wording on constrict to see if you got that as well.

[Urpriest]

Any character can attempt to initiate a grapple as an attack action with a melee touch attack.

SRD:


I see nothing preventing exactly what you're talking about.

Do those rules allow you to do said attacks with a weapon though?

[Frosty]

Any character can attempt to initiate a grapple as an attack action with a melee touch attack.

SRD:


I see nothing preventing exactly what you're talking about.
True, but the "Free Action" portion is AFTER a successful attack. That means the octopus needs to be ABLE to do 8 attacks in a round somehow. If it can do (and it probably can), then no problem. It gets to make 8 grapple attempts. All the secondary ones are at a -5 penalty remember.

[ericgrau]

A giant octopus doesn't have anything else listed under full attack so I don't know what else he would use. +6/+1 BAB? Hmmm maybe.

[herrhauptmann]

A giant octopus doesn't have anything else listed under full attack so I don't know what else he would use. +6/+1 BAB? Hmmm maybe.
Take the feat many attack? Now you get an attack with all of your limbs I think. So a thri-kreen (psionic insect), would get a +6/+1/+1/+1 if holding 4 daggers. I forget if they have a bite or poison attack as well.

No. A tentacle attack is not a touch attack, it is a tentacle attack.
So japanese schoolgirls beware?

[Zherog]

A giant octopus doesn't have anything else listed under full attack so I don't know what else he would use. +6/+1 BAB? Hmmm maybe.

Um....


Attack: Tentacle +10 melee (1d4+5)
Full Attack: 8 tentacles +10 melee (1d4+5) and bite +5 melee (1d8+2)


Am I misunderstanding what you're saying? A giant octopus can make 8 tentacle attacks (and a bite) as a full attack -- and all 8 tentacle attacks are at its highest attack bonus.

[Keld Denar]

You run into a funny case there, when you start a full attack and move into a grapple. The grappling rules state that you only get X grapple actions, where X same as your number of iterative attacks. If I have a BAB of +11, I can use my first attack to start the grapple, then use my remaining grapple actions to do grapple things like pinning and damaging you, or continuing to try to establish the grapple if the first hit failed.

Creatures using natural weapons, however, don't make iterative attacks. They get 1 attack per natural weapon, regardless of whether thats 1, 2, 8, or 50. The only way I can see this working is you compare the number of grapple actions the creature would get (2, in the case of the +6 BAB Giant Octopus) and compare that to the number of attacks the creature has already made in the round. If it has already taken more attacks than it gets grapple actions, then it is out of grapple actions immediately when it starts the grapple, and its turn is over. That kinda works out wonky though, as it would be most advantageous for the creature to wait until it's last attack to establish the grapple because otherwise it would be forfeiting those extra attacks. I don't really see a better way to resolve it, though.

One thing that would happen, though, is if the octopus tried to start a grapple using any other method than Improved Grab, it would suffer AoOs per normal, and any hits would negate the grapple before the opposed roll is even thrown.


Take the feat many attack? Now you get an attack with all of your limbs I think. So a thri-kreen (psionic insect), would get a +6/+1/+1/+1 if holding 4 daggers. I forget if they have a bite or poison attack as well.

The feat for attacking with multiple weapons is Multiweapon Fighting, which is only for manufactured weapons. Natural weapons function differently. The only natural weapon you treat as a manufactured weapon is the Unarmed Strike, and then only WRT whether or not it can make iterative attacks. Multiattack lessens secondary natural attack penalties, but doesn't give you any more attacks than the creature would normally get. Multiweapon Fighting does, if the creature has multiple limbs, but only for weapons wielded in those limbs, not natural weapons attached to those limbs. Natural weapons are wierd, thats why I wrote a miniguide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0).

[Tvtyrant]

This thread makes me desire to play an anthropomorphic giant squid totemist that focuses on Sphinx Claws and the Kraken Mantle. I hope your happy.

[Urpriest]

To those who are arguing that the "touch attack to start a grapple" can be made with tentacle attacks: what if the creature had used Graft Weapon to get a manufactured weapon attached to their arm as a natural weapon? Could they use that to make the touch attack to start a grapple?

[Burnheart]

To those who are arguing that the "touch attack to start a grapple" can be made with tentacle attacks: what if the creature had used Graft Weapon to get a manufactured weapon attached to their arm as a natural weapon? Could they use that to make the touch attack to start a grapple?

I don't know, i do know that it's listed under the Giant Octopus monster entry that they can use tentacles here's the exact wording:

Improved Grab (Ex)

To use this ability, a giant octopus must hit an opponent of any size with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

[Siosilvar]

To those who are arguing that the "touch attack to start a grapple" can be made with tentacle attacks: what if the creature had used Graft Weapon to get a manufactured weapon attached to their arm as a natural weapon? Could they use that to make the touch attack to start a grapple?

Well, it's a natural weapon right? If they get another attack with it, I don't see why not. You can use any attack to start a grapple, you're just limited to your iteratives from there on.

[coffeedragon]

To those who are arguing that the "touch attack to start a grapple" can be made with tentacle attacks: what if the creature had used Graft Weapon to get a manufactured weapon attached to their arm as a natural weapon? Could they use that to make the touch attack to start a grapple?

How would one grapple with a manufactured weapon, grafted to your arm or held?
Grappling is about holding, gripping, wrestling, etc. You could do it with arms or tentacles, but you can't really 'grip' someone with, say, a dagger, can you?


You run into a funny case there, when you start a full attack and move into a grapple. The grappling rules state that you only get X grapple actions, where X same as your number of iterative attacks. If I have a BAB of +11, I can use my first attack to start the grapple, then use my remaining grapple actions to do grapple things like pinning and damaging you, or continuing to try to establish the grapple if the first hit failed.

Creatures using natural weapons, however, don't make iterative attacks. They get 1 attack per natural weapon, regardless of whether thats 1, 2, 8, or 50. The only way I can see this working is you compare the number of grapple actions the creature would get (2, in the case of the +6 BAB Giant Octopus) and compare that to the number of attacks the creature has already made in the round. If it has already taken more attacks than it gets grapple actions, then it is out of grapple actions immediately when it starts the grapple, and its turn is over. That kinda works out wonky though, as it would be most advantageous for the creature to wait until it's last attack to establish the grapple because otherwise it would be forfeiting those extra attacks. I don't really see a better way to resolve it, though.


Under the current rules for the Giant Octopus, it can attack 8 times in a round, once with each of its tentacles (plus a bite at -5). On each successful hit, it makes a free grapple check, which if it wins, deals 2d8+6 additional constrict damage.
It IS an unusual case and does not follow the usual grapple rules and restrictions.

If my understanding is right, then if the octopus hits a target with all 8 tentacles, and all constrict, then the target must face 8 seperate opposed grapple checks to break free on his turn.
Assuming the target fails vs all 8 tentacles, the octopus can make grapple checks for each of the 8 tentacles on its turn, choosing eiher to do constrict damage or a grapple 'manuver' like pin.

A human with Improved Unarmed Srike and Improved Grapple can make a melee touch attack to start a grapple. if the same human wild shaped into a giant octopus and used its natural attack sequence, why couldn't it perform touch attacks on each of its 8 tentacle attacks, rolling opposed grapples as per normal, but forgoing the 1-4+5 damage?

To clarify, I'm trying to find a way to grapple high AC foes without having to hit a regular AC. Hitting a touch attack AC is usually much easier and once grappled, the rest of the party can finish the job :smallbiggrin:

[coffeedragon]

Well, it's a natural weapon right? If they get another attack with it, I don't see why not. You can use any attack to start a grapple, you're just limited to your iteratives from there on.

Quote from the PHB:
"Starting a Grapple
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target"

You need an attack action to do it, but you still need to grab and hold the target with something or its not a grapple, its a slam or some other strike attack.

[Keld Denar]

If my understanding is right, then if the octopus hits a target with all 8 tentacles, and all constrict, then the target must face 8 seperate opposed grapple checks to break free on his turn.
Assuming the target fails vs all 8 tentacles, the octopus can make grapple checks for each of the 8 tentacles on its turn, choosing eiher to do constrict damage or a grapple 'manuver' like pin.

The issue with this is that you don't roll all 8 attacks at once. You roll them one at a time. It would look like this:

1 Attack 1 if hit, goto 2, else goto 4
2 Grapple check, if success goto 3, else goto 4
3 Constrict damage, now considered grappling
4 Attack 2 if hit, goto 5, else goto 7
5 Same as 2
6 Same as 3
7 Attack 3 etc etc etc

At the point you successfully start grappling, you stop making a full attack with natural weapons since the two are mutually exclusive.

Grapple rules were written with players in mind, not monsters. Most monsters don't fit daintily into the normal sceme of monster rules. Improved Grab was written as a patch for monsters to grapple without needing to make Unarmed Strkes, but that patch was only halfassed.