Gladiatory!

[afroakuma]

So, here are your constraints: to build a gladiator (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Frogame_5) for a pit fight against an unknown opponent. Some use exotic styles, like net-and-trident. Others stick to the simpler greatclub-and-rage.

What would you build for a winning gladiator in the pit?

[Fouredged Sword]

Sorcerer / dread witch. Fell freighten sonic snap works on just about everything. Once they are cowering kill them!

[gkathellar]

Level 1? Do you level up over time?

[SamBurke]

Could you use homebrew, or fixes of classes such as Monk?

[afroakuma]

Sorcerer / dread witch. Fell freighten sonic snap works on just about everything. Once they are cowering kill them!

You're level 1, non-gestalt.

You gain XP for every fight (full on victory, half on loss if you survive).

Homebrew and fixes... depends which, I mean, they'd need to be vetted to make sure they aren't The Incorporeal Spell-Immune Man or a Lightning Warrior or the like.

[WarKitty]

Druid, for starting at level 1.

[Fouredged Sword]

Sorcerer 1
Starting feats are Fell drain and versitile spellcaster.

Now you can burn two level one spell slots to deal a negative level to one target. That should work for anything 1hd or less.

Now mix it up with spell selection, ether now or in later levels.

Magic Misile - numbers of low level threats like rats
Sonic Snap - carries fell drain
Shield - armor boost
Color spray - Save or loose

Then pick up some spells for undead or such.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Sorcerer 1
Starting feats are Fell drain and versitile spellcaster.

Now you can burn two level one spell slots to deal a negative level to one target. That should work for anything 1hd or less.

Now mix it up with spell selection, ether now or in later levels.

Magic Misile - numbers of low level threats like rats
Sonic Snap - carries fell drain
Shield - armor boost
Color spray - Save or loose

Then pick up some spells for undead or such.

Good stuff; you basically win as long as you go first. A flaw for Improved Initiative might not be a bad idea.

[SamBurke]

Sorcerer 1
Starting feats are Fell drain and versitile spellcaster.

Now you can burn two level one spell slots to deal a negative level to one target. That should work for anything 1hd or less.

Now mix it up with spell selection, ether now or in later levels.

Magic Misile - numbers of low level threats like rats
Sonic Snap - carries fell drain
Shield - armor boost
Color spray - Save or loose

Then pick up some spells for undead or such.

Let's look at a few problems.

#1. Draining a level from a level one character ONLY makes them lose 2 CON permanently. Impossible to kill any character. (though, the rest of those selections are pretty strong... they'd be the thing to worry about)

#2. Given a certain Tier 2 homebrew class, I'm fairly sure I can beat this on a ten, even if you have a 20 for your spellcasting stat. That's exactly what the arena's for.

#3. Are full-casters allowed in this arena? If so, restrictions, etc?
I'll get links to my homebrew up in a sec.

The Homebrew:
(Gm ONLY, people. Let's not get advantages here!)

Caster Class, for fighting Fell Drain. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204658)

Melee Class. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188148)

[Eurus]

That's a nifty sounding arena. The emphasis on charisma and style makes it a very appealing stat to focus on. But at level 1, that's tricky to do with a non-spellcaster. I've always had a distaste for gladiator spellcasters, but I think I'd have to go with one here. Either a cleric, or a psion, focusing on tanking it up.

Actually, psion. Yeah. I don't suppose this arena thingy is recruiting, eh? :smallwink:

[NNescio]

Let's look at a few problems.

#1. Draining a level from a level one character ONLY makes them lose 2 CON permanently. Impossible to kill any character. (though, the rest of those selections are pretty strong... they'd be the thing to worry about)

#2. Given a certain Tier 2 homebrew class, I'm fairly sure I can beat this on a ten, even if you have a 20 for your spellcasting stat. That's exactly what the arena's for.


#1.
Energy Drain And Negative Levels

...A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.

#2. Homebrew is irrelevant. Because really, anyone can homebrew anything to counter any specific spell or class feature, even if it's supposedly balanced otherwise.

[Flickerdart]

Druid, for starting at level 1.
When I suggester Druid, Wild Cohort and all starting wealth used to buy three riding dogs, afro just looked at me funny. :smalltongue:

[Ksheep]

What sort of arena? Is it an open arena? Enclosed? Is the seating at ground level or raised up?

Main reason I ask is because of a trick I heard once when my old DM's group was stuck in an arena that was basically a bowl. One of the characters, who happened to go first, pulled out a folding boat, had it turn into boat form, and threw a handful of soaked Dust of Dryness onto the ground. Flooded the arena, killed most of the enemies (and almost killed his team mates).

Only problem is that it has a very high GP cost.

[FMArthur]

Let's look at a few problems.

#1. Draining a level from a level one character ONLY makes them lose 2 CON permanently. Impossible to kill any character. (though, the rest of those selections are pretty strong... they'd be the thing to worry about)
What? Where did you hear that? It's patently false. Not only does the description for negative levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) include a clause about dying, but also most attacks that cause negative levels, such as Enervation and Fell Drain, specifically detail that this happens.


#2. Given a certain Tier 2 homebrew class, I'm fairly sure I can beat this on a ten, even if you have a 20 for your spellcasting stat. That's exactly what the arena's for.
What? How is it a problem with this idea that you can make up something that counters it out of thin air? Okay then, I have a problem with your problem: the Sorcerer is capable of taking a homebrewed-right-this-moment skill that makes other creatures with homebrew within a forty-mile radius crumble to dust for having ranks in it at all. How do you plan to combat this crippling weakness in your build?


#3. Are full-casters allowed in this arena? If so, restrictions, etc?
I'll get links to my homebrew up in a sec.
The rules are a part of the OP of this thread.

[faceroll]

Sorc with fell drain is pretty solid. I'd swap out a spell known to pick up nerveskitter, for the initiative boost.

[WarKitty]

Druid going to Planar Shepard. Solid at low-levels due to hit points and ability to wear halfway-decent armor, good mid-level spells, Planar Shepard cheese at high levels to finish.

[SamBurke]

What? Where did you hear that? It's patently false. Not only does the description for negative levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) include a clause about dying, but also most attacks that cause negative levels, such as Enervation and Fell Drain, specifically detail that this happens.


What? How is it a problem with this idea that you can make up something that counters it out of thin air? Okay then, I have a problem with your problem: the Sorcerer is capable of taking a homebrewed-right-this-moment skill that makes other creatures with homebrew within a forty-mile radius crumble to dust for having ranks in it at all. How do you plan to combat this crippling weakness in your build?


The rules are a part of the OP of this thread.

I have no idea where I got that... I thought I'd read it in the description of a Demilich. Major fail on my part.

As to the homebrew, it's already in existence. I didn't just pull that out of my rear. It's not designed to counter this at all: it just happens to. If the Sorc wants to be a class that's designed for Fell, (and there are a few), then go ahead. That's the point of the arena.

As to #3, I was asking for clarification, that's all.

[super dark33]

First, i saw this thread, and said: yes! gladiator arena!

and then: oh man, casters are allowd! this no fun!

needs seperate arenas for melee and magic.

I.E druids Vs Sorcs Vs Clerics Vs Wizards

and Fighters Vs paladins Vs Rangers Vs Barbariens.

[Shadow Lord]

Where does Duskblade go, then? How about Warlock? Bard?

Anyway, if you're open to fixes then I'd play a Kellus' Truenamer 1. I love his fixes, they're GLORIOUS!

[SamBurke]

First, i saw this thread, and said: yes! gladiator arena!

and then: oh man, casters are allowd! this no fun!

needs seperate arenas for melee and magic.

I.E Druids Vs Sorcs Vs Clerics Vs Wizards

and Fighters Vs Paladins Vs Rangers Vs Barbarians.

See, this is why I asked #3. +1.

as to half/half (Duskblade/Bard), I'd say: which is the build optimized for? If combat, then in the melee arena. If spellcasting, then the caster arena.

Of course, Bard's most useful abilities are nil in an arena (unless Knowledge: Architechure will help... HM....), so I'd think this would be less of an issue. DM will decide, perhaps?

[WarKitty]

Of course, Bard's most useful abilities are nil in an arena (unless Knowledge: Architechure will help... HM....), so I'd think this would be less of an issue. DM will decide, perhaps?

Dunno, with a high enough bluff score you might be able to talk your opponents into defeating themselves...

[Shadow Lord]

" DM, what's the Bluff check to convince somebody to kill themself? "

That would be awesome! :smallcool:

[WarKitty]

" DM, what's the Bluff check to convince somebody to kill themself? "

That would be awesome! :smallcool:

Sense motive + 20, along with some reason that they'd kill themselves. For comparison, glibness nets you a +30 to your check.

[Ksheep]

Sense motive + 20, along with some reason that they'd kill themselves. For comparison, glibness nets you a +30 to your check.

"Life is pointless. You're just gonna go around doing pointless things until you're dead, so you might as well get it over with now. Here, have a dagger."

[gkathellar]

Dread Necromancer if I can use Necropolitan and early entry cheese to get into Rainbow Servant.

Otherwise, I'd have to go with Warkitty: Druid going for Planar Shepherd.

... oh god I like playing Tier 1s.

[Khantin]

What? Where did you hear that? It's patently false. Not only does the description for negative levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) include a clause about dying, but also most attacks that cause negative levels, such as Enervation and Fell Drain, specifically detail that this happens.


the quote is right in the link, it is the very last paragraph under the heading "Energy Drain And Negative Levels"

[Rei_Jin]

I'd probably go for a Human Bard with Extra Music and Knowledge Devotion, then pick up Snowflake Wardance at level 3 (if I can survive that long).

Level 6 would be Sand Dancer, and 9 would be Einhander. 12 would be Combat Panache.

It's not the most powerful build ever, but it would be a lot of fun, and I think that it would hold its own. It also fits well into the theme.

[Merk]

Crusader 1 seems like it would fare well against many low-level opponents.

[Ernir]

I suggest that Fell Drain builds are made to fight the Wight the next day. :smallbiggrin:

[marcielle]

When I suggester Druid, Wild Cohort and all starting wealth used to buy three riding dogs, afro just looked at me funny. :smalltongue:

Duhh. Cos the METAL slave shackles/slave collars woulda reduced him to nothing. You wouldn't let ANYBODY with the ability to fly/burrow KEEP those powers if you were gonna put em in an arena.

[Worlok]

Again with the magic? This stuff deserves warriors, people. Barbarians maybe, swashbucklers if possible and just perhaps some scouts and rogues and rangers. Maybe, maybe beastmasters. Or bear warriors. Streetfighters. Tempests. Or dervishes or frenzied berserkers or maybe knights of different brands and only basic half-casters, if any, somewhat few and far between. Hexblades, if even that much. All the guys who're actually fun to see in action, 's what I'm saying. Good gods, y'all. :smallannoyed:

That said, I think I'd just go fighter. Human. Decent roll-to-hit-carrying score, sports solid hit points and an attitude. Dual-wields himself some axes. Having fun. :smallamused:

[Flickerdart]

Duhh. Cos the METAL slave shackles/slave collars woulda reduced him to nothing. You wouldn't let ANYBODY with the ability to fly/burrow KEEP those powers if you were gonna put em in an arena.
...first level Druids don't do any of those things.

Even without his supernatural abilities, the Druid still has three dogs under his control, each a credible CR1 threat. That's the point.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Do note, I'm answering these questions as a several-times player in Fro's gladiatorial campaign.


Actually, psion. Yeah. I don't suppose this arena thingy is recruiting, eh? :smallwink:

It is, actually, if you join the unofficial IRC channel (#Giantitp on the GameSurge server).


What sort of arena? Is it an open arena? Enclosed? Is the seating at ground level or raised up?

Main reason I ask is because of a trick I heard once when my old DM's group was stuck in an arena that was basically a bowl. One of the characters, who happened to go first, pulled out a folding boat, had it turn into boat form, and threw a handful of soaked Dust of Dryness onto the ground. Flooded the arena, killed most of the enemies (and almost killed his team mates).

Only problem is that it has a very high GP cost.

Very high GP cost means you can't do it. You have max starting gold for your class at level 1, and that's it. Even aristocrat only gets 480 gp.


First, i saw this thread, and said: yes! gladiator arena!

and then: oh man, casters are allowd! this no fun!

needs seperate arenas for melee and magic.

I.E druids Vs Sorcs Vs Clerics Vs Wizards

and Fighters Vs paladins Vs Rangers Vs Barbariens.

Yeah, the casters might need their own arena just to be competitive.


Crusader 1 seems like it would fare well against many low-level opponents.

I tried it, I lost twice :smallfrown: (it may have had to do with my unlucky rolls the first time, the second time was because Flicker's disarming build completely shut me down).


Duhh. Cos the METAL slave shackles/slave collars woulda reduced him to nothing. You wouldn't let ANYBODY with the ability to fly/burrow KEEP those powers if you were gonna put em in an arena.

There's no shackles or collars. At least, Fro hasn't mentioned any.

And I want to say to everybody, this is a brutal, brutal game. All the fragility of first level, exasperated by being by yourself and without easy access to any healing (unless you can self-provide).

[afroakuma]

The arena is enclosed. There are mechanisms in it which are sometimes in use (they haven't shown up yet, though).

I think I'm going to have to ban Fell Drain. Thanks for the highlight.

Do note, I'm also recruiting lanistas to train gladiators on my side. :smallbiggrin:

[Vulaas]

This really needs a more comprehensive banned/allowed list.

If Dragon is OK, we could have a Magic Blooded Unseelie Fae venerable Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold, or other such silliness.

[Magic Myrmidon]

I play in a PvP arena thing. But it revolves around schools of gladiators, with the leader starting at level 5. I made a grey elf wizard with abrupt jaunt, fly, and things like that. Wars of attrition happen often.


Obviously, that's not exactly the best option when there's no ACFs and you start at level one. :/

As much as I really, really hate to say it, Druid's probably the best for this. I just don't like druids, so I wouldn't use them. >.>

[SamBurke]

I'll be running both a melee and caster build. The homebrew is up in an earlier post, I'll fetch it again if ya want, Fro.

[NNescio]

I play in a PvP arena thing. But it revolves around schools of gladiators, with the leader starting at level 5. I made a grey elf wizard with abrupt jaunt, fly, and things like that. Wars of attrition happen often.


Obviously, that's not exactly the best option when there's no ACFs and you start at level one. :/

As much as I really, really hate to say it, Druid's probably the best for this. I just don't like druids, so I wouldn't use them. >.>

What about Precocious Apprentice for 2nd-level spells?

[Flickerdart]

The trick's to win initiative - after that, it's not so hard to off a 1st level character, 2nd level spells or big pointy stick.

[TwylyghT]

I suggest that Fell Drain builds are made to fight the Wight the next day. :smallbiggrin:

I second!

Lets see.... Human Barbarian, take one flaw, and go with power attack, brutal throw, and xwp Harpoon. At level 2, switch it up to fighter, grab power throw. At 3rd one more level of fighter, for a pair of feats, and then... whatever seems good at the moment. Rage, throw harpoon, win!

In a less serious thought, for me at least, If you go by the "if it has not been updated then its good to use" train of thought, a human Barbarian, with one flaw, could get into forsaker at 2nd level... Granted you wont get much of the DR without magic items to break, but the rest still works, lol. Fast healing 1, 2d12 hp, 2 BAB, a stat increase, SR 11, 4/0/4 base saves, fast movement AND rage at 2nd level? why not!

[afroakuma]

The trick's to win initiative - after that, it's not so hard to off a 1st level character, 2nd level spells or big pointy stick.

I dunno, the Brute has found losing initiative to be... quite meaningless. :smalltongue:

[The Dark Fiddler]

I dunno, the Brute has found losing initiative to be... quite meaningless. :smalltongue:

Until I pumped him full of arrows :smallsmile:

[Hazzardevil]

You have all forgotten a key part of roman gladiater events.
Team fighting. Now that would be fun.

On a more serious note, My build would be this.

Ranger 1/Fighter 2/ Psychic warrior 2/War Mind 5/
Not sure after that although I am presuming there is 1 fight per day.
I would a aquire if possible an item of baleful polymorph and then polymorph the opposition into a Dvati, so they are split into 2 each with half normal hit points.
Thanks to sweeping strike I could strike both, once with a standard hit on 1 and a full attack on the other. And the beauty is one will have no items and they have to share actions.

[Greenish]

When I suggester Druid, Wild Cohort and all starting wealth used to buy three riding dogs, afro just looked at me funny. :smalltongue:Wild Cohort does have a level requirement.


Of course, Bard's most useful abilities are nil in an arenaWhat? How are IC or spells useless in an area? :smallconfused:



Anyhow, warforged barbarian with flaws: adamantine body, toughness, troll-blooded. The occasional caster or acid-spitter are problems, but not many other things can kill it. Half XP on surviving a fight even if you lose! :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

Wild Cohort does have a level requirement.
Except it doesn't. There is no "prerequisite" section in the feat, and the text states "Provided the DM gives her approval, at 1st level you can choose from a badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf."

[Eurus]

Wild Cohort does have a level requirement.

What? How are IC or spells useless in an area? :smallconfused:



Anyhow, warforged barbarian with flaws: adamantine body, toughness, troll-blooded. The occasional caster or acid-spitter are problems, but not many other things can kill it. Half XP on surviving a fight even if you lose! :smalltongue:

Doesn't it specifically mention Eberronian races being banned, presumably for Warforged?

[Greenish]

Doesn't it specifically mention Eberronian races being banned, presumably for Warforged?You didn't think I'd actually read the instructions before posting?

[afroakuma]

You have all forgotten a key part of roman gladiater events.
Team fighting. Now that would be fun.

Oh no, I haven't forgotten. There have been two partner fights so far.

[SamBurke]

What? How are IC or spells useless in an area? :smallconfused:


I'm talking about Bardic Music and Bardic Knowledge, mostly. Unless there's a team fight...

[NineThePuma]

Ooooh... I so want in on this! XD

[Undercroft]

I think i'd probably opt for a binder. Savnok for the armour or Aym for the fire shield thing would likely fare fine for the lower levels. That 50% damage split you get from Dhalver Nar (or however his name is spelt) is also potentially useful.
Hmm, maybe with a barbarian dip for higher hp and raging funtimes.

[Cieyrin]

Anyhow, warforged barbarian with flaws: adamantine body, toughness, troll-blooded. The occasional caster or acid-spitter are problems, but not many other things can kill it. Half XP on surviving a fight even if you lose! :smalltongue:

Troll-blooded is Human-only, humans from a specific region of Greyhawk. I don't see a Warforged taking it, especially since PGtF removed the Knowledge(Local) work around.


I'm talking about Bardic Music and Bardic Knowledge, mostly. Unless there's a team fight...

Inspire Courage works on the Bard, too, y'know...

As for Bardic Knowledge, you can trade that for Bardic Knack so you have virtual skill ranks in any skill, like Iaijutsu Focus... :smallamused:

[The Dark Fiddler]

Oh no, I haven't forgotten. There have been two partner fights so far.

And they were quite fun, if you ask me.


As for Bardic Knowledge, you can trade that for Bardic Knack so you have virtual skill ranks in any skill, like Iaijutsu Focus... :smallamused:

Isn't that only a number of ranks equal to half your class level? And it prevents you from using untrained skill checks still, IIRC. Still better than bardic knowledge, I suppose, but its use IS limited. Though I could very easily be mistaken, since I don't have the book it's in.

[Cieyrin]

Isn't that only a number of ranks equal to half your class level? And it prevents you from using untrained skill checks still, IIRC. Still better than bardic knowledge, I suppose, but its use IS limited. Though I could very easily be mistaken, since I don't have the book it's in.

*checks PHB2* Half your class level in ranks in place of ranks you have in skill, even if it's 0, rounded up, can't take 10 via Bardic Knack, can't use with skills that are Trained Only. Iaijutsu Focus isn't one of those Trained Only skills. :smallamused:

[The Dark Fiddler]

*checks PHB2* Half your class level in ranks in place of ranks you have in skill, even if it's 0, rounded up, can't take 10 via Bardic Knack, can't use with skills that are Trained Only. Iaijutsu Focus isn't one of those Trained Only skills. :smallamused:

Is one rank in Iajutsu focus worth taking bard in an exclusively combat campaign though :smallconfused:

I mean, don't let me stop you from trying it if you want to. I'd like to see the results, actually.

[Elvencloud]

"Life is pointless. You're just gonna go around doing pointless things until you're dead, so you might as well get it over with now. Here, have a dagger."

Can I sig this? This made me giggle.

[Cieyrin]

Is one rank in Iajutsu focus worth taking bard in an exclusively combat campaign though :smallconfused:

I mean, don't let me stop you from trying it if you want to. I'd like to see the results, actually.

My point with bringing up Bardic Knack is that Bard wouldn't be totally useless in the gladiator arena is you're not doing team battles.

If you can't find a way to get Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill, Bardic Knack works just as well as buying it cross-class without having to bother with spending skill points on it. Since Bards are gonna be Cha focused, anyways, they can get a decent bonus via Bardic Knack and a masterwork tool to be able to get some damage dice.

Consider for a moment, if you will, if our Bard 1 Fascinated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#fascinate) his enemy, came up to him, switched to IC and then Iaijutsu'd him for the 1 hit kill. You'd want Extra Music for this build, as well as possibly Skill Focus (Iaijutsu Focus) to get his bonus up. I'd find that a fascinating build to try, especially since we want to up our favor with the crowd, so we're making Charisma all the more useful by giving it offensive potential.

[ImperatorK]

You can't Fascinate an enemy in combat.

[NineThePuma]

But you CAN use Soothing Voice (half-elf sub level) on them, which is a Will save vs a Diplomacy check, then fascinate.

[The Dark Fiddler]

But you CAN use Soothing Voice (half-elf sub level) on them, which is a Will save vs a Diplomacy check, then fascinate.

No ACFs, unless you complain to Fro to make an exception.

[NineThePuma]

Racial sub-levels count as ACFs? Disappoint. Hmm...

Yeah, I got nothing.

[ImperatorK]

But you CAN use Soothing Voice (half-elf sub level) on them, which is a Will save vs a Diplomacy check, then fascinate.
Irrelevant. Cieyrin was talking about Fascinate.

[Cieyrin]

No ACFs, unless you complain to Fro to make an exception.

Technically that's a substitution level but I guess that makes using Bardic Knack a moot point, since it is an ACF.

The combat-related restrictions of fascinate is a bit more subtle, as it says that you can't if there's combat already joined or other dangers. If you're the only 2 combatants in the arena, it could be argued that there isn't combat going on yet to prevent fascination, though you'd probably want to win initiative to get your fascinate off before the other guy comes over and tries to disembowel you...

[ImperatorK]

Any obvious threat breaks the effect. In an arena fight 1 on 1 it is obvious that the person before me is a threat. So, yeah.

[NineThePuma]

Not if they're naked, old, and all they have is a flute.

[ImperatorK]

Not if they're naked, old, and all they have is a flute.
Monk. You know what I mean. :smallamused:

[NineThePuma]

:smallconfused: What're those?

[Flickerdart]

Monk. You know what I mean. :smallamused:
Did you train your Knowledge(Local) skill? No? Then you can't even roll to check anything about your opponent! :smallbiggrin:

[The Dark Fiddler]

Racial sub-levels count as ACFs? Disappoint. Hmm...

Oh... hmm, I think Fro would agree, but I suppose you could ask him?


Technically that's a substitution level but I guess that makes using Bardic Knack a moot point, since it is an ACF.

I completely spaced on calling that for bardic knack :smallredface:


The combat-related restrictions of fascinate is a bit more subtle, as it says that you can't if there's combat already joined or other dangers. If you're the only 2 combatants in the arena, it could be argued that there isn't combat going on yet to prevent fascination, though you'd probably want to win initiative to get your fascinate off before the other guy comes over and tries to disembowel you...

You're not flat-footed when combat starts, so you're probably aware enough of the murderous intent.

[NineThePuma]

"I'm not a gladiator! I'm a story teller!"

[Eldest]

Not sure, probably a barbarian. And seriously, how do you join?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hmmm... probably a Warblade, actually. Take Cataphract feat to avoid the pouncebarians.

The class is tailor-made to this sort of thing... lots of flashy maneuvers, able to either get down to business and finish the opponent off OR dance around and play with your prey before the killing strike...

In fact, a Bardblade seems ideal. You have nice Cha synergy, nice damage output, and a flair for the dramatic!

[Soranar]

I'd like to point out a few things:

No ACF removes a LOT of option (instead of x classes with x variations we only get x classes).

Also, consider how many classes have useless abilities in such an environment (knowledge checks, trapfinding, outdoors abilities, etc) and couple that with the inability to make up for such drawbacks by switching them out for other options that would work within this framework and you've just eliminated the viability of say half the remaining classes that exist in DnD.

We also don't have a real list of which books are allowed (races of ... ?) which hampers our design options as we never know what will be accepted or not. And ince you also said you might accept alternate class features, this just makes this worse: you might as well call this thing a ''which design does the DM prefer'' competition since one build using ''races of x '' (or an ACF) might get the OK while another doesn't and we have no way to know in advance. Either ban them outright or make a list but leaving a question mark as to what material we really have access to makes this pointless.

Finally, you didn't mention how far apart the opponents start. Do we start in melee range, 10 ft apart, more? At lower levels this can radically change our designs.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Not sure, probably a barbarian. And seriously, how do you join?

Join the unofficial IRC channel (#Giantitp on the GameSurge server).


Take Cataphract feat to avoid the pouncebarians.

Fro added a prereq of BAB +3 to it, because it was too good at level 1, so you'd have to survive a bit before that came into effect. Just so you know.


Finally, you didn't mention how far apart the opponents start. Do we start in melee range, 10 ft apart, more? At lower levels this can radically change our designs.

That's probably because it changes based on your opponents. I'll say that most of my battles have started with a distance of 30 feet, but some I've spectated have started at other distances because of non-humanoid fighters.

[Eldest]

And then...?

[afroakuma]

I'd like to point out a few things:

No ACF removes a LOT of option (instead of x classes with x variations we only get x classes).

That it does! It also removes a lot of grief. And it's not an ironclad ban... you just have to plead, beg, campaign and grovel to get what you want. If it's Abrupt Jaunt, you lost before you started.


Also, consider how many classes have useless abilities in such an environment (knowledge checks, trapfinding, outdoors abilities, etc) and couple that with the inability to make up for such drawbacks by switching them out for other options that would work within this framework and you've just eliminated the viability of say half the remaining classes that exist in DnD.

That I have. Moral of the story: they suck as gladiators.

Then again, combat isn't always 1-on-1 pit fighting. Trapfinding can be crucial in trap pits. Wild empathy in the snakepit would be marvelous.


We also don't have a real list of which books are allowed (races of ... ?)

"Races of" is in the title of all "Races of" books. Makes it easy to determine.


which hampers our design options as we never know what will be accepted or not.

...if it's not on the ban list, then it's currently available. If I have a problem with it, it will be added to the ban list.


And ince you also said you might accept alternate class features, this just makes this worse: you might as well call this thing a ''which design does the DM prefer'' competition since one build using ''races of x '' (or an ACF) might get the OK while another doesn't and we have no way to know in advance.

Because me having to go through all of the books containing ACFs and all of the material available in the Races series and itemize them for approval and disapproval would be more work than running the game currently is. If you feel bad then here's the tl;dr: don't try ACFs or Races content at all. :smallannoyed:


Either ban them outright or make a list but leaving a question mark as to what material we really have access to makes this pointless.

Well, that's your opinion. I'll be over here conferring with the lineup of interested players who don't share it.


Finally, you didn't mention how far apart the opponents start. Do we start in melee range, 10 ft apart, more? At lower levels this can radically change our designs.

Depends on what the Masters feel like. One-on-one usually starts at 30 feet.

[NineThePuma]

Is Dragonborn okay for this?

(Also: I'm so game it isn't funny. I'll make a Kremlin cry out for his mummy!)

[Flickerdart]

Is Dragonborn okay for this?

(Also: I'm so game it isn't funny. I'll make a Kremlin cry out for his mummy!)
Template, not allowed.

[NineThePuma]

Oh, yeah. That's right. =\

*thinkingthinkingthinking*

Edit: So, uh... More details on joining and stuff?

[afroakuma]

Oh, yeah. That's right. =\

*thinkingthinkingthinking*

Edit: So, uh... More details on joining and stuff?

Come to the channel, hope I'm bored. :smalltongue:

Also, we just had one of our most epic fights yet.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Oh, yeah. That's right. =\

*thinkingthinkingthinking*

Edit: So, uh... More details on joining and stuff?


Join the unofficial IRC channel (#Giantitp on the GameSurge server).

The game itself takes place on #pitfighter, but you'll probably want to join #Giantitp first so you can build your character. Also, we're a friendly bunch there.

[TwylyghT]

out of curiosity, what happens when both fighters suffer a KO at the same time?

[Lord_Gareth]

out of curiosity, what happens when both fighters suffer a KO at the same time?

Depends on how poisoned they both are.

[Derjuin]

I'm really tempted by this, but I don't actually have a clue how IRC stuff works...like, joining and stuff. 0 experience with it :smalleek:

I assume Incarnum/WotC articles are okay? If so, I'd probably go with an Azurin Crusader with Shape Soulmeld (for Astral Vambraces (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) and Dissolving Spittle) and Cobalt Charge.

[The Gilded Duke]

Huh, I could see a few ways to make a Divine Mind work for this.
Might see what I could throw together.

[TwylyghT]

out of curiosity, what happens when both fighters suffer a KO at the same time?


Depends on how poisoned they both are.

Well I happened to think a human warmage with a flaw and 18 INT could take retributive spell, sudden empower, and sudden maximize. Given the rules that a spell effect that last 24 hours can be precast, the warmage could enter the fight with a sudden maximized, sudden empowered, retributive acid splash in effect (duration 24 hours).

Any melee build that managed to hit him would take a fierce hit for a level 1 character 7 + .5(1d3+4) with a chance to critical as a weapon-like spell.

Now thats likely not a one hit kill on a d10 or higher class, anyone else could be in for a nasty surprise. The concern I had though, is if the Warmage won initiative and already hit a melee opponent with a shot that didnt kill him, it's all but certain to end with both fighters down after the opponent attacks.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well I happened to think a human warmage with a flaw and 18 INT could take retributive spell, sudden empower, and sudden maximize. Given the rules that a spell effect that last 24 hours can be precast, the warmage could enter the fight with a sudden maximized, sudden empowered, retributive acid splash in effect (duration 24 hours).

Any melee build that managed to hit him would take a fierce hit for a level 1 character 7 + .5(1d3+4) with a chance to critical as a weapon-like spell.

Now thats likely not a one hit kill on a d10 or higher class, anyone else could be in for a nasty surprise. The concern I had though, is if the Warmage won initiative and already hit a melee opponent with a shot that didnt kill him, it's all but certain to end with both fighters down after the opponent attacks.

Given that you don't want to dump Charisma, and it's only a 26 point buy, how do you expect to get an 18 Int? That's 16 points right there...

[NineThePuma]

Dump strength, naturally. ;D

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Dump strength, naturally. ;D

And what else? Dump wis, you're a sucker for will saves. Dump Con, you don't survive either. Dump Charisma, and you die because the crowd turns against you. Dump dex, and not only is your AC going to be pathetic, but you won't be able to hit with touch spells.

Remember, out of 26 points, you've spent 16 of them on your Int. And it's 2 points each just to have a 10.

So Str of 8, then Dex, Con, Wis, and Cha. 2 points in each for a 10 in each, and that leaves you with 2 points left. So which one gets a 12 and a mere +1?

[NNescio]

Dump strength, naturally. ;D

18 INT costs 16 points. 16 Cha costs 10 points. That means the Warmage has to dump every other stat, including Con.

Alternatively, he could go with 14 Cha and 12 Con or 14 Cha and 10 Con, 10 Dex, but that's still crippling, Charisma-wise.

('though not that bad yet at Level 1. But still terrible.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

18 INT costs 16 points. 16 Cha costs 10 points. That means the Warmage has to dump every other stat, including Con.

Alternatively, he could go with 14 Cha and 12 Con or 14 Cha and 10 Con, 10 Dex, but that's still crippling, Charisma-wise.

('though not that bad yet at Level 1. But still terrible.)

Yea, go ahead and have a Con penalty and see how long you survive... or a dex penalty to AC and to ranged attacks... particularly since he's not able to wear much in the way of armor, and neither Shield nor Mage Armor happen to be on his spell list...

[NNescio]

Yea, go ahead and have a Con penalty and see how long you survive... or a dex penalty to AC and to ranged attacks... particularly since he's not able to wear much in the way of armor, and neither Shield nor Mage Armor happen to be on his spell list...

And Initiative rolls, which is pretty much King at first-level arena-style matches.

(And also at higher-level rocket tagging.)

Yeah, the Warmage is screwed.

[Gwendol]

How about this guy:

Tristram the Noble
Human knight 1

STR 14
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 12

Feats: Dreadful Wrath & Combat reflexes
Notable equipment: Guisarme

Might want to switch two points from either DEX or CON to CHA.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I'm really tempted by this, but I don't actually have a clue how IRC stuff works...like, joining and stuff. 0 experience with it :smalleek:

If you need help, I could walk you through joining (and this goes with everybody). Shoot me a PM, and I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

[Flickerdart]

IRC is easy.


Go to www.gamesurge.net/chat/giantitp
Enter a username, press Connect
You are now awesome

[TwylyghT]

Given that you don't want to dump Charisma, and it's only a 26 point buy, how do you expect to get an 18 Int? That's 16 points right there...

a good point, go with 16 INT a round it off a bit more


Yea, go ahead and have a Con penalty and see how long you survive... or a dex penalty to AC and to ranged attacks... particularly since he's not able to wear much in the way of armor, and neither Shield nor Mage Armor happen to be on his spell list...

At level 1, Warmage will have a higher effective AC than most casters by merit of the armored caster feature, and the d6 hit die gives them a slightly better chance to survive a hit than a standard arcane caster. Shield and Mage Armor mean very little in a situation where you are not allowed to prebuff anything that last less than 24 hours *and* starts within reach of melee. Even if you won initiative and got one of them off, your still forfeiting the first offensive move to the opponent, and that's not likely to play out well with that d4 caster hit die.

now *if* and i know its a big if, the warmage makes it to level 3, a lot of things can open up via Arcane Disciple.

[Flickerdart]

Your "higher AC" is going to be around 16 at best (chain shirt, +2 Dexterity). That's really not a problem to hit for anyone charging you (+2 charge, +4 Strength, +1 BAB is better than even odds already, and that's without Orcs or Barbarians being involved to push that STR higher) even if you aren't flat-footed. Anything that does hit will have no problem dealing 6 damage.

Hint: Since you will likely die before you reach 4th level, you don't need to have a Charisma higher than 12.

[NineThePuma]

One minor question, before I commit to making an effort.

Retraining allowed?

[TwylyghT]

Your "higher AC" is going to be around 16 at best (chain shirt, +2 Dexterity). That's really not a problem to hit for anyone charging you (+2 charge, +4 Strength, +1 BAB is better than even odds already, and that's without Orcs or Barbarians being involved to push that STR higher) even if you aren't flat-footed. Anything that does hit will have no problem dealing 6 damage.

Hint: Since you will likely die before you reach 4th level, you don't need to have a Charisma higher than 12.

And you still wouldn't have had time to buff anyhow. Toss in a spear to answer the charge with an AoO (unless they likewise have a reach weapon). You have a fair chance to hit as they will have the -2 AC from the charge, and if the AoO does hit, you again almost assure that a retributive acid splash would result in a double KO.

And no matter what the power of the build is, I am still curious, how would that be resolved. Both executed? Both spared? Both bleed out? If they both live do they get loss level rewards, win level rewards, special rewards for draws?

[Flickerdart]

And you still wouldn't have had time to buff anyhow. Toss in a spear to answer the charge with an AoO (unless they likewise have a reach weapon). You have a fair chance to hit as they will have the -2 AC from the charge, and if the AoO does hit, you again almost assure that a retributive acid splash would result in a double KO.

And no matter what the power of the build is, I am still curious, how would that be resolved. Both executed? Both spared? Both bleed out? If they both live do they get loss level rewards, win level rewards, special rewards for draws?
You really expect to have enough STR to hit them and deal any real damage, after being so stat-starved? Please. Besides, you'll be hard-pressed to find a gladiator without a reach weapon - and some are archers, spellcasters or invocation users, so your terrible tactic only damages 1/4 of the foes you face, and results in your certain death in all cases. Feel free to throw him in the ring anyway, but I wouldn't bother.

[TwylyghT]

You really expect to have enough STR to hit them and deal any real damage, after being so stat-starved? Please. Besides, you'll be hard-pressed to find a gladiator without a reach weapon - and some are archers, spellcasters or invocation users, so your terrible tactic only damages 1/4 of the foes you face, and results in your certain death in all cases. Feel free to throw him in the ring anyway, but I wouldn't bother.

No I wouldn't expect to do serious damage with the spear, just to do some damage to help finish them off with the splash. But again, I don't declare this to be the "i win button" build, which should go without saying when a draw is usually the best case scenario for it, I just came across the idea and wondered how draws would be handled.