What if I don't *want* to use a sheild...?

[TheOneWhoWalks]

ok, so I'm making a 3rd level character, and I have him using a scimitar or a khopesh... or some type of 1h slashing weapon. Anyway, the trick is, carrying a shield just doesn't feel right for the character, and neither does TWF, so I'm at a bit of a loss. Are there any feats other than Einhander that reward that fighting style? Or prestige classes or other options? Even if not things I can access at 3rd level, at least things I can be building towards...

Thanks in advance for any advice! :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

You can wield most one-handed weapons in two hands and get the standard benefits. There's not really any reason not to - Einhander sucks, Deflect Arrows sucks, disarming sucks...

[SamBurke]

One word. MAGUS. For the win. If you're not in Pathfinder, use a Spellsinger (or something like that.) One hand=casting, the other hand=slashing. Pick up Dervish Dance, and you're good.

[Jude_H]

One word. MAGUS. For the win. If you're not in Pathfinder, use a Spellsinger (or something like that.) One hand=casting, the other hand=slashing. Pick up Dervish Dance, and you're good.
Bladesinger fits very nicely into Flickerdart's pattern.

[ScrambledBrains]

I'll just leave this here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207558)

[NikitaDarkstar]

Or if you don't want to go into actual spellcasting classes, pick a class with Use Magic Device as a classkill, keep it maxed and one hand slashing, one hand using wands. Do keep in mind that it gets expensive.

But yhea, wielding a one handed weapon with two hands isn't a bad idea, and it lets you have one hand free anytime you need it to grab potions and such.

[Crow]

You can wield most one-handed weapons in two hands and get the standard benefits. There's not really any reason not to - Einhander sucks, Deflect Arrows sucks, disarming sucks...

This. It's like "greatsword-lite". Also great for gishes that need a hand for spellcasting.

[gorfnab]

2 levels of Swordsage nets you Wis Mod to AC when wearing light armor and not using a shield. Take a level of Sorc/Wiz, Knight of the Weave, or Suel Arcanamach and go into Abjurant Champion. You will not be using a shield, however casting the spell Shield nets you a nice +9 to AC.

[No brains]

There's that gnome cape that is a shield but isn't a board on your arm. It's in Races of Stone.

Also, a free hand can be pretty useful in some circumstances. A delayed blast fireball lands in your square but you are threatened. Only 1 1h weapon lets you pick it up, kill the threat, and pitch that thing somewhere else w/o attacks of opportunity.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wear a buckler on that arm. Not exactly the same as carrying a shield, but it still benefits your AC. Carry a wand in that hand. A Wand of Critical Strike would be activated as a swift action and give you +1d6 sneak attack, double your threat range, and +4 to confirm critical hits for one round per use. A Wand of Wraithstrike would also be useful for obvious reasons, though considerably more expensive.

[Flickerdart]

There's that gnome cape that is a shield but isn't a board on your arm. It's in Races of Stone.

Also, a free hand can be pretty useful in some circumstances. A delayed blast fireball lands in your square but you are threatened. Only 1 1h weapon lets you pick it up, kill the threat, and pitch that thing somewhere else w/o attacks of opportunity.
Except you can take your hand off a two-handed weapon, and still hold it with the one hand - you just can't attack while doing this.

[Urpriest]

There's that gnome cape that is a shield but isn't a board on your arm. It's in Races of Stone.

Also, a free hand can be pretty useful in some circumstances. A delayed blast fireball lands in your square but you are threatened. Only 1 1h weapon lets you pick it up, kill the threat, and pitch that thing somewhere else w/o attacks of opportunity.

Generally speaking making a ranged attack provokes an attack of opportunity.

[ericgrau]

I can only think of the duelist PrC that actually benefits from this, and the duelist is pretty lousy. I mean the main benefit is AC... in exchange for losing more AC than you gained. I suppose if you had really high stats in every single ability score except charisma and you dipped 1 level of monk (wis to AC, tumble, flurry with a light monk weapon) you could pull it off at low levels. Hmm and carry lots of potions of mage armor. Otherwise you need to be at least level 13 just to be so-so with the PrC.

OTOH... wis 14, dex 14, int 14 + mage armor = 20 AC. That's passable though you need to pay more for your early game AC items. Later boosting your 3 stats becomes cheaper than normal for AC, if you can manage the body slots or else use MiC rules there. That plus PrC benefits makes your AC obscene and it's almost all touch. You can zip around without tumble and your initiative and saves aren't bad either. A race that boosts all 3 stats (or, better yet, all but cha) might be worth the LA. Ok, try any 5 / monk 1 / duelist 10. It's not the greatest build but it's passable. On the offense side, flurry, nearly full BAB and minor bonus damage keeps you at par or better as far as core goes. Use your initiative and mobility to pick on strategic targets.

[Seerow]

If you can get homebrew approved I have a homebrew duelist, swashbuckler, and weapon style feats, including a set for the Einhander style, which would help a lot. All are in the link in my sig.

If you can't use homebrew one one handed weapon is generally a really bad style, and under-supported. Your best bet is some form of Gish, but it'll still be suboptimal.

[Knaight]

Check with your DM about refluffing. You might be able to take the mechanics of a buckler, call it a parrying dagger, and be done with it.

[Greenish]

There's that gnome cape that is a shield but isn't a board on your arm. It's in Races of Stone.It's a piece of cloth in your arm. Not a great difference.

EWM (CW) gets you 2:1 PA returns while holding a weapon in one hand. Combo with ToB and maybe Whirling Sword (SoS) refluffed as appropriate (whip sword woot) and enjoy.

[Serpentine]

You can wield most one-handed weapons in two hands and get the standard benefits. There's not really any reason not to - Einhander sucks, Deflect Arrows sucks, disarming sucks...He's given his "reason not to" - character concept.

I think my ex made these feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11356) with this sort of style in mind.

[gorfnab]

I can only think of the duelist PrC that actually benefits from this, and the duelist is pretty lousy. I mean the main benefit is AC... in exchange for losing more AC than you gained. I suppose if you had really high stats in every single ability score except charisma and you dipped 1 level of monk (wis to AC, tumble, flurry with a light monk weapon) you could pull it off at low levels. Hmm and carry lots of potions of mage armor. Otherwise you need to be at least level 13 just to be so-so with the PrC.

OTOH... wis 14, dex 14, int 14 + mage armor = 20 AC. That's passable though you need to pay more for your early game AC items. Later boosting your 3 stats becomes cheaper than normal for AC, if you can manage the body slots or else use MiC rules there. That plus PrC benefits makes your AC obscene and it's almost all touch. You can zip around without tumble and your initiative and saves aren't bad either. A race that boosts all 3 stats (or, better yet, all but cha) might be worth the LA. Ok, try any 5 / monk 1 / duelist 10. It's not the greatest build but it's passable. On the offense side, flurry, nearly full BAB and minor bonus damage keeps you at par or better as far as core goes. Use your initiative and mobility to pick on strategic targets.

Here's some duelist builds I posted in a previous thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207558). All that's need for these builds are Int and Dex. Basically you end up fighting defensively for a extremely nice boost to AC from various class abilities.


Here are three "Swashbuckler" style builds I've toyed with recently that both fight with a one-handed weapon and nothing in the offhand.

Human
1. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Camendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - B: Mobility
3. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense, B: Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander
10. Thief Acrobat
11. Warblade
12. Warblade - Ironheart Aura
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior
19. Duelist
20. Duelist
Trait: Cautious
If flaws are available pick up EWP Broadblade Shortword (pre-errata version)


Human
1. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Camendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - B: Mobility
3. Swashbuckler - EWP Broadblade Shortword (pre-errata version) B: Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Deadly Defense
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander
10. Thief Acrobat
11. Duelist
12. Duelist - Combat Reflexes
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Karmic Strike, Improved Combat Expertise, or Snap Kick
19. Duelist - B: Deflect Arrows
20. Duelist
Trait: Cautious


Gestalt Version

Human
1. Warblade/ Cobra Strike Monk - Camendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Warblade/ Cobra Strike Monk - B: Mobility
3. Warblade/ Swashbuckler - EWP Broadblade Shortword (pre-errata version) B: Weapon Finesse
4. Warblade/ Swashbuckler
5. Warblade/ Swashbuckler - B: Ironheart Aura
6. Warblade/ Thief Acrobat - Deadly Defense
7. Warblade/ Thief Acrobat
8. Warblade/ Thief Acrobat
9. Warblade/ Thief Acrobat - Einhander, B: Combat Reflexes
10. Warblade/ Thief Acrobat
11. Warblade/ Duelist
12. Warblade/ Duelist - Stormguard Warrior
13. Warblade/ Duelist - B: Improved Initiative
14. Warblade/ Duelist
15. Warblade/ Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Warblade/ Duelist
17. Warblade/ Duelist - B: Iron Will
18. Warblade/ Duelist - Karmic Strike, Improved Combat Expertise, or Snap Kick
19. Warblade/ Duelist - B: Deflect Arrows
20. Warblade/ Duelist
Trait: Cautious

[Telonius]

ok, so I'm making a 3rd level character, and I have him using a scimitar or a khopesh... or some type of 1h slashing weapon. Anyway, the trick is, carrying a shield just doesn't feel right for the character, and neither does TWF, so I'm at a bit of a loss. Are there any feats other than Einhander that reward that fighting style? Or prestige classes or other options? Even if not things I can access at 3rd level, at least things I can be building towards...

Thanks in advance for any advice! :smallbiggrin:

When you picture him fighting, what do you imagine him doing with the other hand?

[Grendus]

I second the casting idea. Grab either a gish build or a gish PrC and use that offhand to empower your spells. Alternatively... well, it goes without saying, but Warblade can make pretty much any melee concept work.

[ericgrau]

When you picture him fighting, what do you imagine him doing with the other hand?

Saving it. His other hand is his right hand... :smalltongue:

[Darrin]

What it all boils down to is you get *penalized* for leaving that hand free. You either take an AC penalty for not carrying a shield, or your damage output goes down because you're not using that hand for two-handed multipliers or extra TWF attacks.

Support for single-weapon style is soul-crushingly pathetic. It's already been noted that Einhander is a useless crapfest. Some other possible options:

Single Blade Style (Dragon Compendium p. 108). +2 dodge bonus to AC. Unfortunately, it was written back in the 3.0 heydey of "Kitchen Sink Design" when it comes to prereqs: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, BAB +10. So by the time you qualify for it, it's barely even useful.

Combat Cloak Expert (PHBII p. 93). While holding a cloak in your off-hand is so much infinitely dashing or debonnaire than holding some stupid shield or wussy "parrying dagger", the tactical options offered are in the same neighborhood of Einhander: lets add a bunch of pointless restrictions for doing something that is still inferior to just going to stabbytown with a standard/full attack. Cloak Dance (XPH/SRD) is a more effective option with similar flavor, but oddly doesn't require either a cloak or a free hand.

Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn p. 50). Requires bardic music, of course, but I actually think this feat is oversold. A similar attack bonus can be obtained via other means, it doesn't add any damage, and it locks you into a combat style with lower damage output: single-weapon, TWF, or sword-and-board. Arcane Strike is a much better deal for bards: attack bonus and Xd4 damage where you can nova all your spell levels into X.

PrCs... Duelist has already been mentioned and is widely regarded as a disappointment. You might actually be able to get Precise Strike to work with Improved Unarmed Strike/Versatile Unarmed Strike (to make your unarmed strikes piercing weapons), but... only +2d6 over 10 levels? Ugh.

I would recommend building towards either:

1) a Shadow Blade type build with a shortsword, Aptitude weapon, or lesser/unawakened sunsword (3000 GP, Expedition to Castle Ravenloft p. 210). Restricts you to a short list of weapons, and requires you to be in a Shadow Hand stance, but it is extremely difficult to find a Shadow Hand stance that isn't pure awesomesauce.

2) EWP: great scimitar, bastard sword, or elven thinblade, then dip into Exotic Weapon Master to pick up Uncanny Blow (treat exotic one-handed weapon as two-handed for Power Attack), and then you can do the standard PA/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper stuff as need be.

[ScrambledBrains]

^Snowflake Wardance isn't limited to one-handed weapons, you just can't use a shield.

[Andorax]

Would I be terribly old-school if I were to suggest "carry the party's torch/lantern"?

[Yora]

It would be awesomely old school. :smallamused:

[Thespianus]

Would I be terribly old-school if I were to suggest "carry the party's torch/lantern"?

There's a silly "Sword and Torch" feat somewhere, you can do 1D6 fire damage with the torch as a TWF-alternative. ;)

[Crow]

Would I be terribly old-school if I were to suggest "carry the party's torch/lantern"?

You should have seen the look on my players' faces when I asked them who was carrying the torch one time.

Followed by a lengthy debate over who needed their off-hand the least. :)

[Greenish]

Everyone should have Darkvision. D'oh.

[Eldariel]

Light is a 10 min/level cantrip that does quite the adequate job at shedding light. Magic weapons with elemental enhancements likewise shine. Makes torches somewhat less necessary (though as a Wizard, I still enjoy Bullseye Lanterns for some timely Pyrotechnics).


But yeah, there's a small handful of things that do anything with one handing:
- Einhander
- Deflect Arrows
- Balance on the Sky

And that's about it. And only the last one of those is any good and even that only if you are playing a campaign superlow on magic items (otherwise it amounts to "save 10k" or so). Einhander is...+2 AC which is probably less than wielding a shield gets you and otherwise, it's all just "lol".

However, a Warblade or a Swordsage could be built to lose very little by one-handing, so that's something to consider, at least; you could be around as strong as a two-hander without much optimization by using strikes that deal flat damage and ignore weapon/strength-bonuses, such as Insightful Strike and Greater.

[Chaosblade]

This might help. Shieldbearer. Level 1 spell. 8000 gp to put on a shield, 12000 if it is already enchanted.

[Greenish]

This might help. Shieldbearer. Level 1 spell.It's, what, minutes per level? Would have to persist it.

Unless you're suggesting a custom item, but those are just silly, and there's already an enhancement that does the same thing so it's not like you'd get the guidelines to fly.

[Chaosblade]

Eternal wand? Oil?

[Serpentine]

ok, so I'm making a 3rd level character, and I have him using a scimitar or a khopesh... or some type of 1h slashing weapon. Anyway, the trick is, carrying a shield just doesn't feel right for the character, and neither does TWF, so I'm at a bit of a loss. Are there any feats other than Einhander that reward that fighting style? Or prestige classes or other options? Even if not things I can access at 3rd level, at least things I can be building towards...

Thanks in advance for any advice! :smallbiggrin:New tact: What would you like to be able to do? Some armour class bonus? New tactics (did Einhander or something let you swap hands to fool your enemy, or was that something my ex-DM homebrewed?)? Ability to fight melee with one hand while throwing daggers with the other?
Maybe we should just start homebrewing... Seems to be well established that this is a fighting style lacking in options, maybe we should add to them. Would your DM be willing to allow some homebrew material?

[only1doug]

2 levels of Swordsage nets you Wis Mod to AC when wearing light armor and not using a shield. Take a level of Sorc/Wiz, Knight of the Weave, or Suel Arcanamach and go into Abjurant Champion. You will not be using a shield, however casting the spell Shield nets you a nice +9 to AC.

Abjurant champion requires you to be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells which 1 level of any casting class will not grant you (without cheese).

[darksolitaire]

Abjurant champion requires you to be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells which 1 level of any casting class will not grant you (without cheese).

It requires level 1 arcane spells, and +5 bab. Spellsword requires 2nd level arcane spells and +4 bab.

[only1doug]

It requires level 1 arcane spells, and +5 bab. Spellsword requires 2nd level arcane spells and +4 bab.

Odd, I was certain it was L2,

NM then, ignore me.

[flabort]

Don't you need a free hand to use UMD?
You could pump that through the roof, and be the party wand-user, and since you're in the front line with your one-handed sword, have the best vantage point for hitting the enemy with the Wand of Fireballs, instead of your team.