Wind Wall - how would you fix it ?

[nonsi]

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In my personal opinion, it is unreasonable that a 3rd level spell would render archers obsolete, but I'm not sure if the problem should be addressed by fixing the spell or the rules regarding high winds.

Any suggestions ?

[Rogue Shadows]

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In my personal opinion, it is unreasonable that a 3rd level spell would render archers obsolete, but I'm not sure if the problem should be addressed by fixing the spell or the rules regarding high winds.

Any suggestions ?

Hmm...

Doesn't apply against arrows fired from Mighty Composite +3 or better bows, perhaps, as a start.

[Realms of Chaos]

Off the top of my head, I'd lower it to a 50% miss chance for bolts/arrows and a 20% miss chance for other ranged weapons.

If it seems a bit weak (basically being a shapable displacement effect that can protect multiple creatures but only against ranged weapons), maybe stop diminutive and smaller creatures from crossing the wind wall at all so that you can trap smaller swarms in a box of wind.

[gkathellar]

1 round duration, immediate action to cast. In essence "you see a flight of arrows coming, and quickly deflect them with a blast of wind."

[Dragon Star]

I would say that a long or shortbow have to make a strength check and beat the DC (normal spell DC). Crossbow bolts either always get through, or have an effective strength of 30. Also, enhancement bonuses apply to the check.

[eftexar]

You could require the arrow has to meet an attack roll DC of 10 + your caster level + governing modifier to pierce the veil of wind. On a success it makes it through, but on failure is deflected.
Using this system you could allow the spell to block more than arrows, adding enhancement and size modifiers to the projectiles attack rolls for the purpose of piercing the barrier. Although that might be reserved for a higher level version of the spell.

[MesiDoomstalker]

A slowly scaling protection against projectiles. Like at caster level x, only projectiles with a +y or higher can pierce the wall.

[Kellus]

Give archers the eventual ability to shoot through them.

[ericgrau]

... It's a lousy spell. I'd beef it up a bit, maybe let it do a few more things in addition to the existing abilities.

It's kind of like having a spell that gives immunity to tripping from adamantine spiked chains. Sure you might say that the spell renders every spiked chain tripper obsolete, but any wizard in his right mind would be retarded to ever prepare it.

Either requires tremendous planning and foreknowledge and even then they're not even foolproof. If you lose to something like that then you deserve to die. If I were making a wizard I'd wait until level 15 then cough up 525 gp for a CL 7 scroll of wind wall. I still wouldn't prepare it. Even 30 spell slots isn't nearly enough to leave room for every niche spell in the world. Even at level 15 half a G is a lot of money for something I might never use. And by then archers can usually fly around it or switch targets or some such.

[Yitzi]

Give archers the eventual ability to shoot through them.

This seems the best approach. Even making it so anything that ignores miss chance ignores it would help a lot.

[lesser_minion]

The spell is a lot weaker than it sounds, and probably doesn't need fixing balance-wise. We discussed it at length here (it's an old thread, please do not disturb it).

The best 'fix' is to remember that archery is only one trick in a game where one-trick ponies are neither encouraged nor rewarded. It's archery that needs the help, but what it doesn't need is the ability to ignore everything that weakens it. That's the same logic that gives us things like the Tome Samurai (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Samurai,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)).

Instead, you should offer the archer more ways to be effective in situations where peppering things with arrows isn't so easy or useful. This could include making archery easier to get into so an archer can also learn to fight competently hand-to-hand and improving the archer's mobility or stealth in some way so she can position herself better.

On the flip side, Wind Wall probably shouldn't be absolute. It would probably be best if arrows passing through a wall suffered a penalty to hit rather than being automatically negated -- changing it so that it simply imposes a -10 to hit should be sufficient.

It may also be worth making it impede movement and spellcasting, which would help make it worth casting.

[Hazzardevil]

Why not just make it like a counterspell for ranged attacks?

[Ashtagon]

Why not just make it like a counterspell for ranged attacks?

How about this:

Wind wall grants an AC bonus to anyone protected by its effect. This bonus is equal to the caster level for projectile weapons (sling stones, bows, crossbows), and 1/2 this value (round down) against thrown weapons. Giant-thrown rocks and siege weaponry is not affected.

[nonsi]

How about this:

Wind wall grants an AC bonus to anyone protected by its effect. This bonus is equal to the caster level for projectile weapons (sling stones, bows, crossbows), and 1/2 this value (round down) against thrown weapons. Giant-thrown rocks and siege weaponry is not affected.

Very Nice :smallsmile:
Simple, elegant and scales both for the caster and his opponents.
And it's also quite realistic. Compensating for high winds is an acquired talent that scales with practice and experience.

The only thing that's missing is how it should affect flying creatures in a manner that will scale with the spell effect.

[Yitzi]

The spell is a lot weaker than it sounds, and probably doesn't need fixing balance-wise. We discussed it at length here (it's an old thread, please do not disturb it).

The best 'fix' is to remember that archery is only one trick in a game where one-trick ponies are neither encouraged nor rewarded.

Of course, then you need wizards to be unable to reliably prevent melee...

Probably a good idea anyway, as Deflect Arrows is a substantial but not insurmountable investment for a wizard (and quite achievable for one that leads more toward the "gish" end of things.)

[Ashtagon]

Very Nice :smallsmile:
Simple, elegant and scales both for the caster and his opponents.
And it's also quite realistic. Compensating for high winds is an acquired talent that scales with practice and experience.

The only thing that's missing is how it should affect flying creatures in a manner that will scale with the spell effect.

Under raw, wind wall utterly blocks Small creatures (and anything smaller). I don't see much reason to change this. BBEGs should be Medium size or bigger, and there should be some battle planning so this won't shut him down completely (they, can still walk!). I'm reasonably happy if the spell stops flying mooks who can't walk.

[Yitzi]

How about this:

Wind wall grants an AC bonus to anyone protected by its effect. This bonus is equal to the caster level for projectile weapons (sling stones, bows, crossbows), and 1/2 this value (round down) against thrown weapons. Giant-thrown rocks and siege weaponry is not affected.

I like it, and think I'll add it to my fix; better make it a deflection bonus (as that's essentially what it is.)

[ericgrau]

Under raw, wind wall utterly blocks Small creatures (and anything smaller).
Only if they fly.

For archers it's not absolute either. You switch targets or walk through the wall or go first with your higher dex and ready action to disrupt the spell before it even happens.

Basically what it comes down to is if the wizard tried to shut down everything the fight would be over long before he ever does anything offensive or useful... or even finishes all his locks, or even necessarily succeed on them. Meanwhile everyone else is actually fighting.

It's not absolute either but archers with readied actions usually work pretty well against wizards. I'm totally fine with neither combatant being absolute in their success; that's what makes a game fun. If anything wind wall is on the weak side of things and needs some help. I don't think I've ever prepared or used it in my entire life, nor seen it used. Even if I was afraid of arrows I'd grab gloves of arrow snaring for 4,000 gp or deflect arrows instead, because they don't have such a high chance of failure like wind wall. I might still take some hits but at least I could cast (and again, the archer will probably switch targets anyway).

[jiriku]

FAR SHOT [Fighter, General]
You are far more effective than others when using ranged weapons against distant targets.
Benefit: When using ranged projectile weapons, such as a bow, your range increment is increased by +50%. When using throw weapons, your ranged increment is increased by +100%. You can use ranged weapons in windstorm conditions at a -8 penalty.
Advancement: If you have base attack bonus +8 or greater, treat wind conditions as one category less severe when determining how difficult it is to use ranged weapons.
If you have base attack bonus +16 or greater, instead treat wind conditions as two categories less severe.
Normal: It is impossible to use ranged weapons in windstorm conditions.
Special: Far Shot can be used in place of Point Blank shot to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. You can take both this feat and Point Blank Shot.

[Yitzi]

I'd say that it makes more sense to add it into precise shot than far shot.

[DracoDei]

This is a bit more specific than just Wind Wall but...
The concept that Wind Wall + Fly actually grants immunity to weapon attacks actually has always been a bit of a laugh to me. Sure it does by RAW, but if you look at the fluff, there is a MAJOR loop-hole in Wind Wall... You just have to stand DIRECTLY below your target... come to that, I might grant a few points of bonus damage for that tail-wind the arrows get. Now, if said flying squishy (or not so squishy) has room to set up a LONG wall, and can out-move you laterally along it while still casting, that is perhaps a slightly different matter (solution: nerf length?).

[lesser_minion]

Yes, Wind Wall is actually pretty hard to use on a flying character -- not only must the wall be entirely vertical (making it a lot harder to block LoE with it), but the wall can't be moved after being created.

So either you lose the benefit of the wall within a round or two, or you carefully root yourself to the spot and give your opponents a massive tactical advantage.