Not All Schools Created Equal?

[NeoSeraphi]

I'm going to try and make a blaster wizard. Focused Specialist (Complete Mage) variant, specialized in evocation, banning conjuration, enchantment and abjuration. Before anyone gets on my case, I'm not a new player. I know the annoying superiority that conjuration has over evocation when it comes to blasting, and I don't care. I'm going to try and experience it for myself. I want to see firsthand how often spell resistance will come into play and if it really does screw up evocation as much as everyone thinks.

The problem I'm posting about is I just went through the PHB and every acid spell was conjuration! Acid arrow and acid fog, as well as orb of acid and its lesser variant from the Spell Compendium. I want to have all my bases covered, but did WotC really make that bad of a screw up? Can anyone point out an evocation acid spell for me?

[Eldariel]

The problem I'm posting about is I just went through the PHB and every acid spell was conjuration! Acid arrow and acid fog, as well as orb of acid and its lesser variant from the Spell Compendium. I want to have all my bases covered, but did WotC really make that bad of a screw up? Can anyone point out an evocation acid spell for me?

Acid is conjuration; acid is not energy (though typed as "energy damage") but matter and as such falls under Conjuration, not Evocation. As such, if you would manage to find an Evocation Acid Spell, that would be the screw-up.

And no, Evoker is not worthless, it's just that you'll end up competing with warriors in terms of damage. And without optimization, you should significantly fall behind.

[NeoSeraphi]

Acid is conjuration; acid is not energy (though typed as "energy damage") but matter and as such falls under Conjuration, not Evocation. As such, if you would manage to find an Evocation Acid Spell, that would be the screw-up.

And no, Evoker is not worthless, it's just that you'll end up competing with warriors in terms of damage. And without optimization, you should significantly fall behind.

So there's simply no acid evocation? Well that's a bit annoying. Alright then.

[Ravens_cry]

That being said, blowing crap up, or in this case melting its face, can be fun. If you enjoy that style of play, do so. As a wizard, you can usually pick up other spells if you need them and still play a blaster most of the time.

[Scarlet-Devil]

There's always Energy Substitution of course.

[Ravens_cry]

There's always Energy Substitution of course.

Indeed. Acid Ball and Chain Fire are such good times.:smallamused:

[Eldariel]

So there's simply no acid evocation? Well that's a bit annoying. Alright then.

Nothing that's of value enough for me to remember it anyways, and I remember a lot.

[NeoSeraphi]

Indeed. Guess it's Energy Substitution (Acid) for me then. I hate preparing metamagic...

[Shades of Gray]

Acid Shout!

[0nimaru]

A blindingly non-thorough search found 1 evocation spell with acid damage, but it's of the rainbow variety (Energy Spheres SpC 80).

Do you want acid damage to deal with Regeneration, or just to avoid your damage being nullified? Sound and Force effects are so rarely resisted that things like Sound Lance might cover that for a while.

[Angry Bob]

Indeed the only reason blasting(as a wizard) is frowned on is because battlefield control is so much better. That doesn't mean the wizard can't blast very well.

And even then, because you're a wizard, you can blast and still have other options when blasting doesn't cut it. Remember, to blast effectively, all you need is

a) something that targets touch AC(scorching ray at low levels, orbs at higher)
b) something that targets fort(disintegrate, can't immediately think of anything lower level)
c) something that targets ref(fireball or defenestrating sphere)
d) something that targets will(can't think of any off the top of my head)
e) something that always works
f) something that ignores SR, once it becomes an issue(orbs)
g) something to circumvent resistances(like having multiple energy types on demand or searing spell)

You get enough spells that filling these out should be easy. Basically, you only need a way around any given defense, and that's it. You only need so many ways to deal damage. Instead of taking four direct damage spells of each spell level, take the two best of those four, and the other two can be something else, and trust me, you won't have much trouble finding other good stuff to take on the wizard list.

[ericgrau]

Indeed. Guess it's Energy Substitution (Acid) for me then. I hate preparing metamagic...

But metamagic is the only way to blast. Energy substitution and spell shaping to exclude allies are fairly typical ways to go. For that matter area spells are generally better than single target; that's the only way you'll outpace melee by a big enough margin. So you empower energy substitute shaped fireballs. You can also change energy types with archmage, energy admixture and other such things, not necessarily with metamagic.

If you also use a lot of rays then keep in mind at low levels you really can miss on your touch attacks, especially against anything that has cover. So dex matters. If the foe has cover even a[n empowered] magic missile will do more damage on average once you count how many rays actually hit. Another good low level alternative is flaming sphere; it really shines from levels 3-6. Maybe make 2-3 of them as often only 1 of the 3 needs to be moved.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why bother with Acid when you can go with Scorching and Piercing Cold to deal damage to even immune opponents with more traditional elemental flavors?

Also, do no neglect Born of Three Thunders.

Also, I hope your GM never throws anything with a high Ref save and Evasion at you...

[NeoSeraphi]

Why bother with Acid when you can go with Scorching and Piercing Cold to deal damage to even immune opponents with more traditional elemental flavors?

Also, do no neglect Born of Three Thunders.

Also, I hope your GM never throws anything with a high Ref save and Evasion at you...

Why would you hope that? If the GM doesn't present something specifically designed to counter the wizard, that won't give the melee their chance to shine. Encounters designed to play against a party member's strengths when that party member is doing exceptionally well is normal, and the game wouldn't be fun without it.


Why do you want Acid?

Well, acid ignores hardness, for one. Unless I find a scroll of knock, blasting down doors is going to be annoying without acid damage. (My GM isn't the type to just hand me whatever scrolls I want. He has the inventory of every shop specifically prepared before we enter a town)

Also, having a single spell to deal acid damage would mean I wouldn't have to burn a feat on Energy Substitution to get acid damage. I want acid for flavor, after all it's one of the energy types and if my blaster wizard can't throw acid like he can throw fire and lightning, it's a little less flavorful to me.


Snip
A) Scorching Ray will indeed be a staple
B) I'm a particular fan of ray of exhaustion, actually
C) Well, I'm an evoker, so that's going to be a good chunk of my spell list
D) I'll be taking quite a few illusion spells, I think.
E) Can't go wrong with magic missile there
F) As I stated in the OP, I will be banning the conjuration school. The only spells I take that deal damage will allow spell resistance.
G) Yes, that's what I'm trying to do with this thread. I plan on having at least two of every energy type prepared, as long as I can find an evocation spell that deals acid damage I'll be golden.


But metamagic is the only way to blast
Oh, believe me, I'm going to use it. I just don't like it. Especially contingency metamagic where you have to guess against a potential threat (Like Energy Substitution). That's why I generally don't play prepared casters. Still, you can't help others nearly as well if you haven't experienced it yourself, so I'm giving it a try.


Energy Spheres

Well, thank you, but prismatic energy isn't exactly the most reliable way to deal a specific type of damage...

[ericgrau]

Well the archmage form of energy substitution lets you change the type on the fly, though you can't grab it until level 15. Not sure about energy admixture but if you select 2 different energy types then at least one of them is bound to get through.

A note on acid and sonic damage vs. objects. There's some confusion surrounding "deals damage normally". This actually means like a weapon or not halved, as in full damage minus object hardness. I believe the rules compendium clarifies this. That's way better than half damage or quarter damage and then subtracting hardness (low damage - 10 = :smallfrown:), but not quite as good as you might think.

[0nimaru]

Prismatic energy isn't exactly the most reliable way to deal a specific type of damage...

It's not random, it simply is a portion of each and I think comes with the ability to pop one of your orbs for some resistance, but I understand what you mean. I gave a quick look through several books and nothing new showed up linking Evocation and Acid.

You could create a new spell using existing ones as guidelines, since the general damage each level should do is fairly set. You could also ask your DM to change the Orbs Of _____ into evocation, because.. conjuration gets too many good things anyway and doesn't deserve them.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, acid ignores hardness, for one. Unless I find a scroll of knock, blasting down doors is going to be annoying without acid damage. (My GM isn't the type to just hand me whatever scrolls I want. He has the inventory of every shop specifically prepared before we enter a town) Shatter is Evocation, and should do the job. Disintegrate is Transmutation, which you haven't banned. You've got options.


Also, having a single spell to deal acid damage would mean I wouldn't have to burn a feat on Energy Substitution to get acid damage. I want acid for flavor, after all it's one of the energy types and if my blaster wizard can't throw acid like he can throw fire and lightning, it's a little less flavorful to me. Going for the 'blasting in every flavor of the rainbow' feel? I get that. However, it's more flexable to have Energy Substitution, and apply it selectively to whatever blasting spell has the right shape for the job rather than simply having a single acid spell which still might not be able to handle it properly. After all, wizards get bonus metamagic feats anyways.



A) Scorching Ray will indeed be a staple
B) I'm a particular fan of ray of exhaustion, actually
C) Well, I'm an evoker, so that's going to be a good chunk of my spell list
D) I'll be taking quite a few illusion spells, I think.
E) Can't go wrong with magic missile there
F) As I stated in the OP, I will be banning the conjuration school. The only spells I take that deal damage will allow spell resistance.
G) Yes, that's what I'm trying to do with this thread. I plan on having at least two of every energy type prepared, as long as I can find an evocation spell that deals acid damage I'll be golden.


Oh, believe me, I'm going to use it. I just don't like it. Especially contingency metamagic where you have to guess against a potential threat (Like Energy Substitution). That's why I generally don't play prepared casters. Still, you can't help others nearly as well if you haven't experienced it yourself, so I'm giving it a try.



Well, thank you, but prismatic energy isn't exactly the most reliable way to deal a specific type of damage...

Prismatic energy is an excellent way to deal lots of different types of damage. Taste the rainbow, and all that. However, applying precision would take a bit more effort.

Sucks about banning Abjuration, although I can see why you would do so. Dispel Magic and Exploding Runes would both be right up your alley.

Also don't forget the following:

Shatter (destroys objects, sonic damage to crystalline)
Ice Storm (deals bludgeoning damage as well as cold damage with NO saving throw)
Shout (Sonic damage)

Sonic damage also ignores hardness, and generally has special effects against brittle or crystalline objects and creatures.

[NeoSeraphi]

It's not random, it simply is a portion of each and I think comes with the ability to pop one of your orbs for some resistance, but I understand what you mean. I gave a quick look through several books and nothing new showed up linking Evocation and Acid.

You could create a new spell using existing ones as guidelines, since the general damage each level should do is fairly set. You could also ask your DM to change the Orbs Of _____ into evocation, because.. conjuration gets too many good things anyway and doesn't deserve them.

Well, if by change the orbs you mean, simply port the orbs as they are into my school without changing them at all, then that defeats the purpose of banning conjuration in the first place, but if you mean "Take Orb of Acid, make it an AOE and tack a Reflex save on it, and add some SR", then maybe I can convince my DM to do that, yeah...

[Siosilvar]

Rainbow Blast (SpC 165) is like a lightning bolt, except with every energy type and deals five dice of damage (one for each), the size of the dice increasing instead of the number. Rainbow Beam (SpC 165) is a depressingly small amount of damage, but deals acid damage 1/7 of the time (and is probably the only way to deal straight HP poison damage without the poison mechanics).

Other than those, Energy Sphere, and getting an orange result on the various prismatic spells, your only option for Acid in Evocation is Energy Substitution. EDIT: and maybe a few spells outside of SpC + core, but doubtful

Also of note: Acid and sonic don't ignore hardness unless stated, but they do deal full damage to objects.

[NeoSeraphi]

Rainbow Blast (SpC 165) is like a lightning bolt, except with every energy type and deals five dice of damage (one for each), the size of the dice increasing instead of the number. Rainbow Beam (SpC 165) is a depressingly small amount of damage, but deals acid damage 1/7 of the time (and is probably the only way to deal straight HP poison damage without the poison mechanics).

Other than those, Energy Sphere, and getting an orange result on the various prismatic spells, your only option for Acid in Evocation is Energy Substitution. EDIT: and maybe a few spells outside of SpC + core, but doubtful

Also of note: Acid and sonic don't ignore hardness unless stated, but they do deal full damage to objects.

Ooh, rainbow blast sounds nice. And it's evocation? Thanks Siosilvar.

[Siosilvar]

EDIT2: Never mind the below. Just checked again, and Hail of Stone is also Conjuration. :smallsigh:

Hail of Stone is another amazing spell. Ignores saves and energy resistance, and has an area of effect, albeit small. The only downsides are its one-round casting time (not a full-round action), pitiful damage, and lack of transdimensional capability.

SpC updated it to put it on the Sor/Wiz list and ignore SR as well. Page 108.

EDIT: And I guess the 5gp material component counts as a downside as well, albeit a tiny inconvenience only.

[0nimaru]

Well, if by change the orbs you mean, simply port the orbs as they are into my school without changing them at all, then that defeats the purpose of banning conjuration in the first place, but if you mean "Take Orb of Acid, make it an AOE and tack a Reflex save on it, and add some SR", then maybe I can convince my DM to do that, yeah...

I did mean to quite directly port them, but whatever your DM will accept is obviously the best course of action. As for the purpose of banning conjuration... the 'flavor' of conjuration to me has always been summons, permanent creations, teleportions, cloud-control spells, etc.

If you read the description of the most famous evocation spell (fireball) it's an Orb of ____ that zips towards a target under your mental control.

[NeoSeraphi]

I did mean to quite directly port them, but whatever your DM will accept is obviously the best course of action. As for the purpose of banning conjuration... the 'flavor' of conjuration to me has always been summons, permanent creations, teleportions, cloud-control spells, etc.

If you read the description of the most famous evocation spell (fireball) it's an Orb of ____ that zips towards a target under your mental control.

Yes, but the purpose was to not cheat being a blaster by grabbing SR No, Saving Throw No spells. Rather than simply ignore them or allow myself the temptation to grab one if I'm fed up with it by 7th or 12th level, I'm just flat-banning the entire school.

Evocation, as it was intended, was the damaging school. It was crowd control and did its job fine in the beginning, and then Complete Arcane and the Spell Compendium gave us the orb line and conjuration took over. Now most wizard guides advise evocation as one of the straight schools you can ban along with enchantment, since between conjuration's superior damage and the shadow evocation line, you really aren't missing out on anything. And that's just kind of...wrong.

[Talya]

Collegiate Wizard might be worth your while at level 1, with the difficulty of getting the scrolls you want.

I have little experience playing a wizard. I tried an illusionist once, but the campaign didn't last long enough to get into Shadowcraft Mage. But Collegiate Wizard always strikes me as a good feat if you are suspicious you might not get as many spells as you would like.

[Grendus]

Actually, Evocation does beat Conjuration on damage. Evocation's problem is twofold - most of it's spells allow multiple protections (touch AC, saves, SR), and damage dealing is sub-par for wizards who fancy themselves lesser deities. Why waste that fourth level slot on Ice Storm when Polymorphing the beatstick into something nasty gives better damage returns on investment and keeps the fighter from realizing he was obsolete three levels ago?

Unfortunately, you'll find that the best way to get good returns on your blasting spells is to use metamagic and metamagic reduction. Metamagic School Focus is a personal favorite, as is Ultimate Magus/Anima Mage reduction. Grab a reserve feat (Acidic Spatter would be good if that's a character theme) to increase your longevity.

Evocation isn't as bad as people say, the reason it gets cut a lot is because most of what it can do is mimicked by other schools and feats. With the right amount of umph it can easily become a save-and-die-anyways effect. It just takes a little system knowledge, otherwise you're a glorified beatstick with less health.

[HalfDragonCube]

Try a Stilled Silent Invisible spell if you need to kill an NPC in public without witnesses knowing it was you. You might need some metamagic reducers to make that feasible, though, and it verges on evil, so you might have a few problems around paladins.

Who says Wizards can't be useful in social situations? Try a Still Silent Invisible Fireball today!

[dextercorvia]

Try a Stilled Silent Invisible spell if you need to kill an NPC in public without witnesses knowing it was you. You might need some metamagic reducers to make that feasible, though, and it verges on evil, so you might have a few problems around paladins.

Who says Wizards can't be useful in social situations? Try a Still Silent Invisible Fireball today!

You will want ranks in Sleight of Hand, so that you can disguise your casting as well (RoS). For some reason, just Still, and Silent don't eliminate the casting 'poop face'.

[HalfDragonCube]

You will want ranks in Sleight of Hand, so that you can disguise your casting as well (RoS). For some reason, just Still, and Silent don't eliminate the casting 'poop face'.


Brief concentration
Destructive power flows forth
Poop face spellcasting

Note to self: Never do haikus to express D&D terminology.

[Halna LeGavilk]

Brief concentration
Destructive power flows forth
Poop face spellcasting

Note to self: Never do haikus to express D&D terminology.

You win the internet.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You do realize that by banning Conjuration, you also are prohibiting yourself from the teleport spells...

[NeoSeraphi]

You do realize that by banning Conjuration, you also are prohibiting yourself from the teleport spells...

Indeed. It will definitely not be as easy for me to handle every task as it would be for other wizards, but that's part of the specialist's power. Less versatility in exchange for more blasting.

[Grendus]

Hmm, I think I'd ban Necromancy over Conjuration, but to each his own. I'd rather have Conjuration's battlefield control (even just as backup) and utility over necromancy's debuffs. Necromancy is very much a go big or go home school. Conjuration is great for dabbling.

[Talya]

He does have Shadow Conjuration. Not that one can teleport with it.

There's a chain of feats in Lost Empires of Faerun that can get you access to a banned school, and early in the feat chain it gets you access to a single spell of the banned school, might be good for those teleport issues.