Is Girard a Human?

[KillianHawkeye]

In this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) where the Order of the Scribble is introduced, Lirian, Serini and Kraagor are all described according to their race and class, while Soon, Girard, and Dorukan are described by occupation alone.

Now maybe this is a plot hole, but while it seems that Dorukan was alive until shortly before the start of the comic, it seems that Soon died of apparent old age when Shojo was still a young boy (and Shojo himself was close to the end of his natural lifespan when he died). So what gives? Did Dorukan live a really long time or something?

Basically, what I'm wondering is: assuming that Girard is indeed a Human, is it even reasonable to assume that he's still alive? Comparing to Soon says no, but comparing to Dorukan says he might just be extremely old. Does anyone have any definitive info on this?

[Thanatosia]

THe fact that his race was not mentioned, while every other non-human member of the scribble was mentioned by race, while both other humans had no particular reference made to their humanity, strongly implies, that Girard was human.

Girard is an epic level character, like most of the scribble, and there are a good number of ways for epic level characters to extend their lifespans. So no, I don't think its unreasonable to suspect he's still alive, and maybe even healthy and vigorous still. Acting like its some wierd or mysterious thing that an epic level character exceeds normal lifespans is like being amazed every time a sorceror or wizard breaks the laws of physics or a comic book character comes back from the dead.... it's just not all that remarkable.

[Tebryn]

The thing is, we don't know for certain that Girard is still alive. We've been given little info on that little piece of information. The illusion could have been there from the very start when he picked the random location. We only know that Tarquin knows -of- him, not knows him. Girard could very well be dead, despite the fact that humans in D&D normally live upwards to 110 years old.

[faustin]

The thing is, we don't know for certain that Girard is still alive. We've been given little info on that little piece of information. The illusion could have been there from the very start when he picked the random location. We only know that Tarquin knows -of- him, not knows him. Girard could very well be dead, despite the fact that humans in D&D normally live upwards to 110 years old.

I agree. My theory is Tarquin killed him long ago, or at least discovered his hideout after his conquering quest, containing a bit of information about him (a painting with his name, a diary with a few pages, minion or inteligent monster who remembered their former master, etc... ) including something about the Gates. So Tarquin is using the Order to fill the gaps (He doesn´t know Nale has already the same information than the Order), or maybe it´s the old "only heros with pure heart can pass the trials" similar to Dorukan´s, so he is planning to use his good aligned-easy manipulable son for that purpose.

[NerfTW]

but while it seems that Dorukan was alive until shortly before the start of the comic, it seems that Soon died of apparent old age when Shojo was still a young boy

Dorukan was a young man at that time (the "new kid", and probably no more than 20). Soon was already middle aged. It's not a plot hole, it's just an age difference of 20-30 years. Not to mention we've already seen a sorceror (Xykon) extending his youthful looks well into old age in SOD. When Dorukan died, he was pretty darn old.

[Zerg Cookie]

Before this thread turns into a "Is Girard still alive" thread, I just want to point out that whether Girard is alive or not doesn't matter.
The scrying eye that was sent to the random location after the OotS blew the illusion up indicates that SOMEONE is looking after Girard's gate. It might be Girard himself or hsi followers, like the Shappire Guard and Soon's gate.

[Querzis]

Dorukan was a young man at that time (the "new kid", and probably no more than 20). Soon was already middle aged. It's not a plot hole, it's just an age difference of 20-30 years. Not to mention we've already seen a sorceror (Xykon) extending his youthful looks well into old age in SOD. When Dorukan died, he was pretty darn old.

Indeed, Soon already had gray hair back when they formed their group:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html

Which indicate he was probably in his 50. Also, please remember that dying was actually part of Soon plan, after he had done the enchantment on the throne room, I woudnt be surprised if he had let himself die relatively young so he could protect the gate better. So without even getting into the dozens of way epic level character can live longer, it would have been perfectly possible for Durokan and Girard to still be alive. And if we do include the dozens of stuff epic level spellcasters can do, then they could both easely live up to be 300 years old and still be totally humans.

That being said, I still think Girard is either an half-dragon or a polymorphed dragon. I mean come on, his name is Draketooth and he even got a dragon tattoo. This also add some drama since V could very well have killed some of his family.

[Zevox]

Now maybe this is a plot hole, but while it seems that Dorukan was alive until shortly before the start of the comic, it seems that Soon died of apparent old age when Shojo was still a young boy (and Shojo himself was close to the end of his natural lifespan when he died). So what gives? Did Dorukan live a really long time or something?
As others have pointed out, it's a simple age discrepancy between the two. We know that the Order of the Scribble's adventures began 66 years ago (see the comic you linked), so for Soon to die of old age when Shojo (who was 72 when we saw him, according to War and XPs) was still young would require him to have already been pretty old during their adventures. (Alternatively, he may not have died of old age, but sacrificed himself as part of a ritual to enact the Ghost-Martyr magic, but he would still have to be pretty old during their adventures to appear "aged" like he did when Shojo was still young.)


Basically, what I'm wondering is: assuming that Girard is indeed a Human, is it even reasonable to assume that he's still alive?
Sure it is. It's perfectly possible for Girard to still be alive even if he were in his 40s during their adventures, since the normal max age for Humans is 110. And he's an epic-level spellcaster to boot, and those have a tendency to develop magical means of extending their lifespans. At the very least, I'd say it's a safe assumption that he has not died of old age.

Zevox

[Talvereaux]

Before this thread turns into a "Is Girard still alive" thread, I just want to point out that whether Girard is alive or not doesn't matter.
The scrying eye that was sent to the random location after the OotS blew the illusion up indicates that SOMEONE is looking after Girard's gate. It might be Girard himself or hsi followers, like the Shappire Guard and Soon's gate.

The scrying eye could have been Zz'dtri googling the Order, rather than a guardian of the gate checking on the spot. Note it didn't happen until hours after the 'Gate' blew up, so the events didn't completely coincide, and the eye matches Z's dweomer perfectly.

[Klivian]

As others have pointed out, it's a simple age discrepancy between the two. We know that the Order of the Scribble's adventures began 66 years ago (see the comic you linked), so for Soon to die of old age when Shojo (who was 72 when we saw him, according to War and XPs) was still young would require him to have already been pretty old during their adventures. (Alternatively, he may not have died of old age, but sacrificed himself as part of a ritual to enact the Ghost-Martyr magic, but he would still have to be pretty old during their adventures to appear "aged" like he did when Shojo was still young.)


Sure it is. It's perfectly possible for Girard to still be alive even if he were in his 40s during their adventures, since the normal max age for Humans is 110. And he's an epic-level spellcaster to boot, and those have a tendency to develop magical means of extending their lifespans. At the very least, I'd say it's a safe assumption that he has not died of old age.

Zevox

Perhaps the stress of guarding the fabric of reality caused him to show the signs of aging faster than normal. As an example, take a look at the pictures of the recent presidents of America before and after their time in office, it wears much harder than the standard 8 years.

[Zevox]

Perhaps the stress of guarding the fabric of reality caused him to show the signs of aging faster than normal. As an example, take a look at the pictures of the recent presidents of America before and after their time in office, it wears much harder than the standard 8 years.
We don't see that with the other gate guardians, though. Nobody in the Sapphire Guard is like that, Lirian wasn't (though granted, Elf), nor was Dorukon (heck, he looked pretty good for a minimum 80-some years old).

Zevox

[Red XIV]

I agree. My theory is Tarquin killed him long ago, or at least discovered his hideout after his conquering quest, containing a bit of information about him (a painting with his name, a diary with a few pages, minion or inteligent monster who remembered their former master, etc... ) including something about the Gates. So Tarquin is using the Order to fill the gaps (He doesn´t know Nale has already the same information than the Order), or maybe it´s the old "only heros with pure heart can pass the trials" similar to Dorukan´s, so he is planning to use his good aligned-easy manipulable son for that purpose.
The problem with this theory is that it requires the non-epic Tarquin to kill an epic-level character.

[FujinAkari]

The problem with this theory is that it requires the non-epic Tarquin to kill an epic-level character.

What makes us assume Tarquin is non-epic? The dude conquered a sixth of the world...

[lio45]

The problem with this theory is that it requires the non-epic Tarquin to kill an epic-level character.

Tarquin has got an Army now... and before that, he had a party of adventurers. And he's far from low-level, even if he's not epic (which we don't actually know).

I don't think it's a "problem". It could have happened.

[Talvereaux]

What makes us assume Tarquin is non-epic? The dude conquered a sixth of the world...

Most of his power's political, not physical or magical. He doesn't conquer through personal brute force, he controls armies and politics from the backseat. He's done nothing so far that insinuates he's stronger than other competent non-epic characters like Samantha, Redcloak, or Miko.

That's not to say he can't possibly use his armies and wits to stand up to an epic character who's operating by their lonesome, but the possibility he's epic his self is a pretty loud claim until something proves he's just that strong.

[Querzis]

Perhaps the stress of guarding the fabric of reality caused him to show the signs of aging faster than normal. As an example, take a look at the pictures of the recent presidents of America before and after their time in office, it wears much harder than the standard 8 years.

Once again, it doesnt need to. Soon already had already grey hair and wrinkles back when they formed their party of adventurers. Going from grey to white in a few years isnt hard to do and he actually didnt have much more wrinkles when saw him as an «aging Soon» in Shojo flashback. He woudnt have needed a special disease or rapid aging to die only a few years after he took control of the gate, especially since he knew he would be a more efficient defender for the gate once dead.

[Zerg Cookie]

Most of his power's political, not physical or magical. He doesn't conquer through personal brute force, he controls armies and politics from the backseat. He's done nothing so far that insinuates he's stronger than other competent non-epic characters like Samantha, Redcloak, or Miko.

That's not to say he can't possibly use his armies and wits to stand up to an epic character who's operating by their lonesome, but the possibility he's epic his self is a pretty loud claim until something proves he's just that strong.

He believes he can take out two wizards "after the match is over", an assumption he probably based on his victory over Elan and the fact that V can't be too far from Elan level-wise. The same applies to Z and V.
Now, he knows E's power because they fought, and the order are 15-ish.
Also, he's martial, so to assume that he should be way higher level than them.

[Querzis]

He believes he can take out two wizards "after the match is over", an assumption he probably based on his victory over Elan and the fact that V can't be too far from Elan level-wise. The same applies to Z and V.
Now, he knows E's power because they fought, and the order are 15-ish.
Also, he's martial, so to assume that he should be way higher level than them.

Taking down two wizards after they have been fighting for so long isnt especially hard regardless of levels, Tarquin is just smart enough to wait until they run out of spells to throw at each others. Also, whatever Tarquin did when fighting Elan, its pretty obvious it was negating his Dashing swordsman abilities and without those, Elan isnt worth much in a fight.

[Mutant Sheep]

Taking down two wizards after they have been fighting for so long isnt especially hard regardless of levels, Tarquin is just smart enough to wait until they run out of spells to throw at each others. Also, whatever Tarquin did when fighting Elan, its pretty obvious it was negating his Dashing swordsman abilities and without those, Elan isnt worth much in a fight.

Also, Elan is a bard. :smalltongue:


He believes he can take out two wizards "after the match is over", an assumption he probably based on his victory over Elan and the fact that V can't be too far from Elan level-wise. The same applies to Z and V.
Now, he knows E's power because they fought, and the order are 15-ish.
Also, he's martial, so to assume that he should be way higher level than them.
Since Elan only used his few levels of dashing swordsman and no bard spells, I don't think Elan gave Tarquin any indication of his level beyond "has a few levels in strange prestige class." Unless he told his dad what level he was, then yes. And seeing Roy vs Thog, he can guess they are high-ish level, and when/if/already has found out they are in same party THEN he could make assumtions on the rest of the party.

[KingofMadCows]

They don't describe Dorukon, Girard, and Soon's races because humans are the master race. All other races are inferior and must be designated as such.

[martianmister]

They don't describe Dorukon, Girard, and Soon's races because humans are the master race. All other races are inferior and must be designated as such.

OK... :smallconfused:

[Dalek-K]

Indeed, Soon already had gray hair back when they formed their group:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html

Which indicate he was probably in his 50. Also, please remember that dying was actually part of Soon plan, after he had done the enchantment on the throne room, I woudnt be surprised if he had let himself die relatively young so he could protect the gate better. So without even getting into the dozens of way epic level character can live longer, it would have been perfectly possible for Durokan and Girard to still be alive. And if we do include the dozens of stuff epic level spellcasters can do, then they could both easely live up to be 300 years old and still be totally humans.

That being said, I still think Girard is either an half-dragon or a polymorphed dragon. I mean come on, his name is Draketooth and he even got a dragon tattoo. This also add some drama since V could very well have killed some of his family.

Or V killed him already -_-

[Heksefatter]

He could be a half-elf. Though honestly, I expect to be surprised.

[zimmerwald1915]

Or V killed him already -_-
What a tweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeest! :smalltongue:

[Mutant Sheep]

Or V killed him already -_-

Have to admit, I never thought of that. V doomed the world!:smalltongue:

[Leecros]

That being said, I still think Girard is either an half-dragon or a polymorphed dragon. I mean come on, his name is Draketooth and he even got a dragon tattoo. This also add some drama since V could very well have killed some of his family.

So we should also assume that Haley Starshine glows like a star and Durkon Thundershield's Shield shoots lightning bolts out of it? Sorry, but sometimes a name is just a name. Yes, there are some people in OotS which their last names actually have a meaning...like Roy Greenhilt, but for the most part the majority of people in OotS have fairly little to really do with their last names. I mean, if every person whom had a name that's "Dragon-based" like Draketooth, Dragonheart, and a myriad of others was actually a dragon then there is a heck of a lot more dragons in fantasy than i thought...

As for the "Dragon" Tattoo, it has been referred in-comic as a purple squiggly tattoo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html). Just because it might look vaguely similar to a dragon if you squint your eyes, stand on your head,pat your stomach with your hand in the middle of a thunderstorm holding a 100ft tall iron rod doesn't mean that it is one. I'm fairly certain that if it was a dragon tattoo then it would be referred to as such...Of course there are plenty of people out there whom don't believe a word that comes out of Tarquin's mouth... But your theory is still a theory. There's still a chance of it being true, but the basis of the theory(His last name is Draketooth and he has a "Dragon" tattoo) is not really an argument for anything.

[Nimrod's Son]

He could be a half-elf.
Unlikely, since Rich has said there won't be any more half-elves in the strip to avoid overplaying the "one pointy ear" joke he did with Pompey.

Also, we've seen both sides (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) of Girard's head. :smallwink:

[FujinAkari]

Unlikely, since Rich has said there won't be any more half-elves in the strip to avoid overplaying the "one pointy ear" joke he did with Pompey.

Where was this said?

[Lord Bingo]

That being said, I still think Girard is either an half-dragon or a polymorphed dragon. I mean come on, his name is Draketooth and he even got a dragon tattoo. This also add some drama since V could very well have killed some of his family.

If, and I really mean if, Girard was a half-dragon or a polymorphed dragon it is unlikely that he be would be related in any way to a black dragon, so we can forget he "Perhaps V killed some of his family" drama.

In my opinion, from the point of view of alignment as well as Girard's general disposition the Chaotic Good Copper Dragon would be the most likely candidate for a dragon that would spawn a person such as Girard.

Still, if he was a half-dragon I expect someone would have noticed -as with Enor the wings are a dead give away. Whether he was a true dragon or just half one, even then he would hence have taken steps to hide his true identity with polymorph or (more simply) alter form. Surely someone would have noticed.

-edit- BTW, if you base Girard's species upon his name he would not be a Dragon but a Drake:smallwink:

[KillianHawkeye]

Still, if he was a half-dragon I expect someone would have noticed -as with Enor the wings are a dead give away. Whether he was a true dragon or just half one, even then he would hence have taken steps to hide his true identity with polymorph or (more simply) alter form. Surely someone would have noticed.

Technically, a half-dragon only gets the wings if sized Large or larger, and Girard is clearly Medium-sized (assuming his appearance can be taken at face value).

Also, Girard's specialty is illusion, so it's doubtful he'd resort to transmutation spells to hide his appearance.

[Tass]

But your theory is still a theory.

Gah. I hate sentences like that, because of the way it leads to a misunderstanding of science in the real world.

I would say, his theory is not a theory, it is a hypothesis. A bad one.

[Nimrod's Son]

Where was this said?
In this forum, maybe eighteen months or so ago. I can't think of any decent keywords to find the quote though; the closest I got was this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164706) with SPoD mentioning it in post #2. If anyone can dig up the original, thanks in advance.