Cleric Archer Syndrome

[Kaeso]

Hello there playground!

Some of you might be familliar with the Cleric Archer Syndrome, which means that a Tier 1 class can be built in such a way that it out-does a lower tier'd class in it's so-called specialisation, like how a Cleric Archer is a better archer than a Ranger.

This makes me curious as to how one should build a cleric archer. What race/stats/equips should one take? As far as I'm concerned Zen Archery is a must and you're pretty much doomed to take an elf for bow proficiency, but what more is there to it? Also, what type of cleric is better suited to be an archer, the regular half-BAB, heavy armour wearing archer or his cloistered, lightly equiped cousin?

[Thespianus]

I'm guessing Cloistered Cleric, going for Knowledge Devotion to boost the archery, Elf and Travel domains (or Elf + War for proficiency).

Then I suppose it becomes a matter of deciding if you want to never lose caster levels, or not. A level of Scout or Rogue (with Craven) to add to the damage you will be capable of deliviering might not hurt too much. Rogue will give you UMD which can help with certain Ranger spells from wands, stuff like that.

But I should leave the field open for proper optimizers, I'm just guessing here. ;)

[gkathellar]

Cloistered Cleric because it's almost always better. Wear a Monk's Belt. Dip Shiba Disciple for +Wis to attack and damage. If you can use Dragon Compendium, consider dipping Paladin 2 and grabbing the Serenity feat for Wis to saves. Alternately, get access to the Calm Animals spell somehow and take 2 levels of Prestige Ranger for an archery bonus feat and access to the Ranger spell list (including its archery spells). Only do both if you're willing to sacrifice spellcasting.

(You can get Calm Animals with the Animal Domain, then use Rebuilding from PHBII to switch that domain out for another one, seeing as Prestige Ranger gives you access to that very spell.)

Edit: So, several builds. Those marked with (R) should only be used if rebuilding is allowed, as Animal domain sucks. Monk's Belt is assumed on all, but on those with a spare caster level you could conceivably just go with a level of Monk or Ninja.

Cleric X/Shiba Disciple 1/Paladin 2 (Serenity feat)
Cleric X/Shiba Disciple 1/Prestige Ranger 2 (R) - spare level for Monk/Ninja
Cleric X/Shiba Disciple 1/Prestige Ranger 2/Paladin 2 (Serenity feat, spells cap at 8th level) (R) - spare level for Monk/Ninja

[Kaeso]

Hmm, what source is Shiba protector from? Does it advance cleric spellcasting?

[Talya]

Elf. (Averiel only if you have level buyoff, might be worth considering. You can be fully paid off by 18, you get flight and a wisdom bonus.)

Cloistered Cleric. Bonus Knowledge Domain.

Additional PRCs to consider in addition to the ones above:
Ruathar: martial proficiency of your choice, full casting, only 3 levels, lots of little bonuses, including a free magic composite longbow, and allows you to cheese some mental aging bonuses without the physical penalties.
Seeker of the Misty Isle. Elf-only, Text-trumps-tables, it's full spellcasting, gets you Travel and Magic domains, as well as full martial proficiency in case you actually picked Averiel and are not proficient with bows.
Contemplative. Extra Domain.

Ensure you persist DMM-Persist divine power.
You might want to consider some domain spontanaity with 6 domains and only one domain slot per level.
Normal archery feats.

[gkathellar]

Hmm, what source is Shiba protector from? Does it advance cleric spellcasting?

Oriental Adventures, and no. Plus it's a little bit of a hassle to get into. But for any Wisdom SAD character, it's worth it.

Also, everything Talya set is absolutely on the money.

[Kaeso]

Elf. (Averiel only if you have level buyoff, might be worth considering. You can be fully paid off by 18, you get flight and a wisdom bonus.)

Cloistered Cleric. Bonus Knowledge Domain.

Additional PRCs to consider in addition to the ones above:
Ruathar: martial proficiency of your choice, full casting, only 3 levels, lots of little bonuses, including a free magic composite longbow, and allows you to cheese some mental aging bonuses without the physical penalties.
Seeker of the Misty Isle. Elf-only, Text-trumps-tables, it's full spellcasting, gets you Travel and Magic domains, as well as full martial proficiency in case you actually picked Averiel and are not proficient with bows.
Contemplative. Extra Domain.

Ensure you persist DMM-Persist divine power.
You might want to consider some domain spontanaity with 6 domains and only one domain slot per level.
Normal archery feats.

Sounds pretty good. As an archer the loss in CON won't hurt me too much I presume, so it's all good.
EDIT: I just saw the Ruathar gives you bonus bow proficiency if you choose it, so even a human cleric could be an awesome archer, and still get that sweet, sweet bonus feat.

[gorfnab]

You may want to read through this guide called the Quickstart Cleric Archer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10961.0).

[Thespianus]

You may want to read through this guide called the Quickstart Cleric Archer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10961.0).

I looked through that guide, and from what I could see, the sample character retrains both Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Why? Is it because Extend Spell and Persistent Spell makes the "traditional" Archery-feats superfluous?

Also, I don't understand the Plant domain. Is it just to get Knowledge(Nature)? Barkskin?

[Scarlet-Devil]

Rather than Elf, I should think that a Lesser Aasimar or something else with a wisdom bonus, and the War domain would be a better way to go, since you don't really need dexterity for anything (although now I remember that you still need the dex for archery feats...).

[jguy]

If you are just going for consistent range damage, the Reserve Feats make bows redundant. With the Fiery Burst feat and Flame Strike always prepared (or 2) you can do 5d6 in a 5 foot burst, save for half. If you don't want any saves, Acid Splatter is a ranged touch.

[JaronK]

DMM:Persistant Cloistered Cleric with a dip into PrC Ranger (since it gives some Ranger spells, which are amazing when persisted). Persist Divine Power for the full BAB so you can qualify earlier, and use Knowledge Devotion for better damage.

JaronK

[CockroachTeaParty]

The War domain is also nice to have for the Holy Warrior reserve feat from Complete Champion. The level of your highest uncast War domain spell is added as a bonus to all damage rolls: handy for archers, who can use every damage bonus they can without access to nice things like Power Attack.

Spell selection is pretty basic: anything that boosts attacks and damage is gold. Divine Favor, Greater Magic Weapon, etc. etc.

[tyckspoon]

Also, I don't understand the Plant domain. Is it just to get Knowledge(Nature)? Barkskin?

It might just be the next-best domain offered by Ehlonna, but yeah, I think it's to get Know: Nature in-class to be used with Knowledge Devotion. Precise Shot gets retrained because you can buy it as a Precise bow when you have enough money, and Point-Blank gets retrained because it's not really build-critical unless you're using it as a prereq for something.. and for this build, getting the prereqs in for DMM: Persist is more important. Actually having the feats doesn't become important again until you can afford to get a Splitting bow, at which point you need to have the actual Precise Shot feat to make it work. (I would have gone with one of the deities that allows Elf domain for Point Blank as a bonus feat, if you were gonna be an elf anyway; you're going to want to pick up Rapid Shot and probably Precise Shot again eventually, so you need Point Blank.)

[Flickerdart]

Can clerics get Heroism? Persisting it for some Fighter bonus feat goodness could help with the feat-starved nature of any archer build.

[Person_Man]

IMO, a Cleric Archer should not take any archery related feats other then Zen Archery. They are much better things to spend them on, like metamagic and divine/devotion feats. Instead, just play like a normal Cleric - buff, summon, heal, blast, dominate, etc. as called for in combat. Except instead of hitting people with a morning star when you want to conserve spells, hang back and use your bow. Invest in a few archery related magic items if it suites your fancy, and you're set.

[ericgrau]

You ban DMM persist. Otherwise buffed fighter > arcane archer > cleric archer > unbuffed fighter until level 15. At level 15 he can't fully pull it off until round 2, at which point he is marginally better and he has 7 buffs active. So you dispel him. Even at a boosted caster level he's bound to lose a couple buffs.

Before level 15 casting divine power is worse than spending the round attacking, or at best break even. At level 15 the cleric quicken divine power round 1, quicken divine favor round 2, plus all the morning buffs. Before that point the cleric might get lucky and get a buffing round to become marginally better some of the time, and worse the rest of the time. The fighter might also carry buff potions. Heck by level 15 you can even UMD wands with cross-class ranks, and he'd be dumb to not have at least some kind of magical arsenal with the big level 15 budget you get.

Before level 15 the cleric also doesn't get point blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot, weapon focus and maybe improved precise shot until level 6 at minimum, possibly level 9 or 12. Once you bring in splatbooks with things like ranged weapon mastery and improved rapid shot, he can't keep up ever, even at level 15, because he doesn't have weapon specialization, besides needing 4 more feats. So even DMM persist falls behind a moderate non-PHB feat or two.

[Runestar]

Arcane archer's main feature is completed replicated by a single greater magic weapon spell. How does it even factor into the discussion? :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

The "buffed fighter" part. That's part of the point: an arcane archer, as bad as it is, is still better than a cleric archer until level 15. Often even then for reasons explained.

[Flickerdart]

Archery Cleric doesn't need DMM. Divine Might is a better damage booster than the Fighter can ever get for his bow. Between this, Holy Warrior and Knowledge Devotion, the Cleric is pulling in around +20 damage per shot, while the Fighter has +2 from Weapon Spec, and +5 if he was able to get the Power Shot ability somehow. Buffs? Why do I need buffs to be a better archer than the Fighter?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

(Snow) Elf Cloistered Cleric. Elf and Spell domains, Knowedge domain gets traded for Knowledge Devotion. Dex is a dump stat, take Otherworldly (PGtF) at 1st level, and get Zen Archery. Flaws are highly recommended, get two for Precise Shot and Extend Spell starting out. Dip one level of Ruathar to get Survival as a class skill, dip one level of Seeker of the Misty Isle for the Travel domain, take Paragnostic Apostle 2 for Mind Over Matter and Spatial Awareness. You absolutely want to be both good-aligned and exalted.

That means Cloistered Cleric 5/ Ruathar 1/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 1/ Paragnostic Apostle 2, so grab one more level in either Ruathar or Seeker of the Misty Isle, and then take all ten Contemplative levels. Domains are Elf and Spell at 1st, Travel at 7th, and whatever other two domains you want at 11th and 16th, probably pick from Time, Celerity, Destiny, and Trickery. Your feats should be Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Knowledge Devotion, Otherworldly, and Extend Spell at 1st level, Zen Archery at 3rd, Persistent Spell at 6th, DMM: Persist at 9th, Rapid Shot at 12th, and probably either Quicken and DMM: Quicken or Extra Turning and Craft Rod.

Get a Lesser Rod of Extend Spell, an Elvencraft Composite Longbow, and a standard Strand of Prayer Beads which has had the Bead of Smiting removed which should cost 9,000 gp as per DMG pricing. Your bow should eventually get +1 Seeking on the bow portion, and +1 Defending on each of the two quarterstaff portions. Put Greater Magic Weapon on all three, and always have the quarterstaff portions boosting your AC. Cast (Greater) Luminous Armor every day, use Anyspell for DMM: Persistent Shield, both of which benefit from Mind Over Matter, cast Magic Vestment on both of those, and wear a Monk's Belt.

Use Greater Anyspell for DMM: Persistent Draconic Polymorph: Arrow Demon, and get a second bow. At that level both your bows should be Composite with a sufficient strength allowance, considering Arrow Demon's Str 21, Draconic Polymorph grants +8, Divine Power gives you +6, Greater Visage of the Deity gives +4, and post-errata Righteous Might is another +4. This is why you take Otherworldly, and another reason to go Elf. Use Rapid Shot and Haste on your primary bow, and your secondary bow gets just as many attacks. Definitely cast (Extended) Longstrider every day, Spatial Awareness makes it grant +20.

Get a standard Rod of Extend and a 6th level Pearl of Power for Energy Immunity x5 and Superior Resistance constantly active for only two spell slots per day. Be sure to DMM: Persist Holy Star and Stormrage as early as possible, and DMM: Persist Choose Destiny makes the Destiny domain worth having.

Get a stack of +1 Spell Storing Arrows and put (Lesser Rod of) Maximized Shivering Touch into them. Some argue that Spell Storing doesn't work on projectiles, it's ultimately up to your DM and this is not a place to debate it.

Get a stack of +1 Defending Arrows and put Greater Magic Weapon +5 on them, suddenly you get +5 AC per arrow fired. Also questionable.

Much of that only applies in the highest levels, but even in the lower levels it's got a lot going for it.