Snowflake Wardancer/DFI Bard

[Daftendirekt]

So, I've been curious for a while about building the bard mentioned in title. What is the best way to do it, apart from bard? Best PrCs to take? What would a solid racial choice be?

[Talya]

So, I've been curious for a while about building the bard mentioned in title. What is the best way to do it, apart from bard? Best PrCs to take? Is Dragonwrought Kobold a solid racial choice? Lemme know.

Don't PrC. Bards are great single-classed.

The exception of course is the Bardadin, which is worth looking at, but that's a whole other story.

Bard Only:
Silverbrow Human is the best race (as you can instantly qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration, and get that bonus feat)
Savage Bard variant from UA is much better even if only for trading Reflex saves for Fort saves.
Swap Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack.
Swap Countersong for Spellbreaker Song.
Swap Fascinate for Hymn of Healing (just because)
Swap Suggestion for Song of the Heart (Feat, eberron ACF, but not setting specific)
Take Jack of All Trades (to enable bardic knack across trained-only skills)Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, and a heritage feat to move you to some sonic dragon. Also consider Martial Study (Devoted Spirt maneuver of your choice - we're going for intimidate as a class skill here) and Doomspeak. If you're going very, very good-aligned, Words of Creation is godlike.
Spell: Inspirational Boost.
Ensure you have a Crystal Echoblade and a Badge of Valor.

Right there, you have a perfect bard. Depending on your DM (and the availability of Flaws), you might consider two crystal echoblades and Two Weapon Fighting. It's a good idea, but the wording of Snowflake Wardance makes some DMs ban it with a second weapon (incorrectly, I believe.)

[Amnestic]

and a heritage feat to move you to some sonic dragon.

Force could be an option also. Races of the Dragon notes that (with DM permission) you could expand it to dragons not normally described by Draconic Heritage. Amethyst dragons have the Force 'descriptor', and though not given in the table, Ethereal Dragons also have a Force-type breath weapon.
Edit: Redacted. Just re-read DFI. Apparently you can only have the base five energy types for DFI for some asinine reason. :/

Also, consider buying two Badges of Valour. They're pretty cheap at only 1400gp each, and if you plan to sing more than 3 times per day, they'll be invaluable.

[JKTrickster]

I have a question: what is the advantage of now PrC-ing out? As far as I know, there's nothing stopping a Melee Bard from going into Virtuoso + Sublime Chord at higher levels. After all it only depends on Inspire Courage Optimization and Sublime Chord can give you a bunch of useful spells to depend on. Virtuoso also stacks with Bard for IC boni too so nothing is lost!

Just my two cents yeah.

[Talya]

I have a question: what is the advantage of now PrC-ing out? As far as I know, there's nothing stopping a Melee Bard from going into Virtuoso + Sublime Chord at higher levels. After all it only depends on Inspire Courage Optimization and Sublime Chord can give you a bunch of useful spells to depend on. Virtuoso also stacks with Bard for IC boni too so nothing is lost!

Just my two cents yeah.



(1) Crystal Echoblades are keyed off of bard level. That's a huge loss in bonus damage. At level 20, they are equivalent to +3d6 stacking sonic damage. Dual weilding them? Even better. Get your party crafter to add more enhancements to them (since they're only +1 weapons to start with, and are therefore cheap to further enhance) for more fun.
(2) Bardic Knack is an incredible alternate class feature, that keys off of bard-level as well. However, Sublime Chord can get the same ACF, so really only Virtuoso hurts that one.
(3) Inspire Courage optimization does best with pure bard, at high levels, or PrCs that advance inspire courage (like virtuoso, but...see 2)
(4) You're a melee bard, and you're trading away BAB every time you PrC, unless you go Warchanter. Unlike Cleric, you cannot make it up with a spell.

Sublime Chord is an excellent PrC, and certainly powers up a bard, but it's no longer a bard. It's a sorcerer with some less-powerful bardic abilities. I'd play a sublime chord without hesitation, but it's a different type of character than a bard.

I don't like Virtuoso much, at all.

[Daftendirekt]

So, I know where a decent bit of that stuff you listed is, Talya, but could you edit locations into the post? It would be super helpful. :biggrin:

Also, do Crystal Echoblades absolutely have to be Longswords? Rapiers would be so much better, because then I could finesse them. But, I guess that would be a question for the DM, and I don't think he'd have a problem with that.

[Amnestic]

So, I know where a decent bit of that stuff you listed is, Talya, but could you edit locations into the post? It would be super helpful. :biggrin:



Silverbrow Human Dragon Magic

Savage Bard variant Unearthed Arcana

Swap Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack. Player's Handbook 2

Swap Countersong for Spellbreaker Song. Complete Mage

Swap Fascinate for Hymn of Healing (just because) Complete Champion

Swap Suggestion for Song of the Heart (Feat, eberron ACF, but not setting specific) Eberron Campaign Setting

Take Jack of All Trades Complete Adventurer

Snowflake Wardance Frostburn

Dragonfire Inspiration Dragon Magic

and a heritage feat to move you to some sonic dragon. Dragon Magic, Races of the Dragon, one of the Completes which I forget

Also consider Martial Study (Devoted Spirt maneuver of your choice - we're going for intimidate as a class skill here) Tome of Battle

and Doomspeak. Champions of Ruin

If you're going very, very good-aligned, Words of Creation is godlike. Book of Exalted Deeds

Spell: Inspirational Boost. Spell Compendium

Ensure you have a Crystal Echoblade and a Badge of Valor. Magic Item Compendium


As for the Echoblade, I believe that by RAW it has to be a Longsword, but you could always ask your DM to have one made as a Rapier.

[Daftendirekt]

As for the Echoblade, I believe that by RAW it has to be a Longsword, but you could always ask your DM to have one made as a Rapier.

Thanks very much, you rock.

[Amnestic]

I should note that unless I'm missing something - and it would not be the first time! - you will need to dip either Sorcerer or Dragonfire Adept to get access to the Draconic Heritage feat - either that or blow another feat on Dragontouched (Dragon Magic).

I would recommend Dragonfire Adept personally. Better HD, better skill list, more skill points, better saves, and you can nab one of the excellent first level invocations (Free Identify+Detect Magic forever? Untyped +6 to Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate? Darkvision and free See Invisibility?) that they offer.

[Mordokai]

I should note that unless I'm missing something - and it would not be the first time! - you will need to dip either Sorcerer or Dragonfire Adept to get access to the Draconic Heritage feat - either that or blow another feat on Dragontouched (Dragon Magic).

I would recommend Dragonfire Adept personally. Better HD, better skill list, more skill points, better saves, and you can nab one of the excellent first level invocations (Free Identify+Detect Magic forever? Untyped +6 to Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate? Darkvision and free See Invisibility?) that they offer.


Silverbrow Human is the best race (as you can instantly qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration, and get that bonus feat)

There's your answer.

[Amnestic]

There's your answer.

I don't see anything in the description of Silverbrow Humans (or the Dragonblood subtype) which gives automatic qualification for Draconic Heritage. Could you point it out to me?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Also, do Crystal Echoblades absolutely have to be Longswords? Rapiers would be so much better, because then I could finesse them. But, I guess that would be a question for the DM, and I don't think he'd have a problem with that.

Doesn't work with Snowflake Wardance.


One-Handed Melee Weapons
{table]Rapier|20 gp|1d4|1d6|18-20/x2| — |2 lb.|piercing[/table]


Benefit: By expending one of your daily uses of bardic music, you may perform a deadly style of combat known as the snowflake wardance. Activating a snowflake wardance is a free action, and once activated, you add your Charisma modifier to your attack rolls with any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand. This bonus to hit stacks with any bonuses you get from a high Strength score (or Dexterity score, if you are using Weapon Finesse).
You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a shield, wearing medium or heavy armor, or carrying a medium or heavy load.

[Optimator]

For snowflake wardance, I've always found that a longsword and power-attacking away the IC and SWD bonuses away to massive damage is a good route.

[Hiro Protagonest]

For snowflake wardance, I've always found that a longsword and power-attacking away the IC and SWD bonuses away to massive damage is a good route.

Has to be used in one hand, so no 2:1 PA returns. Still a good source of damage.

[Talya]

Has to be used in one hand, so no 2:1 PA returns. Still a good source of damage.

Although you can probably get it in both hands (unless your DM reads more into the wording of Snowflake Wardance than is there)...but damn does it cost a lot of feats. (TWF, ITWF, GTWF and probably OversizedTWF.)

[kardar233]

Or maybe dip Exotic Weapon Master to get two-handed weapon Power Attack returns on each hand.

[Draz74]

For a Bard who focuses on Snowflake Wardance/DFI, I agree that Sublime Chord actually isn't the best ... but at high levels, you could still consider branching out into a few levels of Lyric Thaumateurge. Bard levels don't give you very much by comparison after Level 14 or so.

[Saintheart]

Briefly on gear: Slippers of Battledancing for about 30K are gold; CHA to attack and damage synergises wonderfully with a battle bard. Also, the Sudden Stunning weapon enhancement from PHB 2 is a must: +2,000 gold for a CHA-based stunning fist in your weapon is a bargain.

On PrCs, I see nobody's mentioned Swiftblade as yet. Nice for a level or two on a battle bard.

[Draz74]

Also, the Sudden Stunning weapon enhancement from PHB 2 is a must: +2,000 gold for a CHA-based stunning fist in your weapon is a bargain.

Or, if your DM thinks Sudden Stunning is broken-tastic (as I do), there's the similar but reasonably-priced Stunning Surge enhancement in Magic Item Compendium.

[JKTrickster]

Briefly on gear: Slippers of Battledancing for about 30K are gold; CHA to attack and damage synergises wonderfully with a battle bard.

Actually this is only true if you have a method of free movement. After all a battle bard benefits a lot from extra attacks (or even just a full attack) and you don't normally get those after moving 10 ft.

Or you can just use Sparring Dummy of the Master but not every DM allows that one.

[MeeposFire]

I don't see anything in the description of Silverbrow Humans (or the Dragonblood subtype) which gives automatic qualification for Draconic Heritage. Could you point it out to me?

It doesn't. It is often forgotten that you need to have the dragontouched feat in order to pick up drconic heritage. Inspiration requires either half dragon or the draconic heritage feat to change the element type (oddly a full blown dragon would still need its own draconic heritage as far as I can tell). The only way a non-sorcerer can pick up draconic feats is to pick up the dragontouched feat so the dragonblood subtype is not good enough.

Also sublime chord does not progress bardic knack without a houserule from the DM. I would say it is a reasonable houserule and one that I would allow but we should be careful to not confuse people reading that this is official because it is not.

[Daftendirekt]

Doesn't work with Snowflake Wardance.

Doh, that's right. Also, thanks to everybody for the responses. All shall be very helpful when I actually get to play one of these.

[Dexam]

Another option for battle-bards, though very feat intensive, is to take Extend Spell, Persist Spell, and Metamagic Song (Races of Stone). Take enough levels in the Lyric Thaumateurge PrC (Complete Mage) to get the Spell Secret (I think?) class feature and take the Wraithstrike spell from Spell Compendium. Spend some Bardic Music uses to get 24 hour melee touch attacks.

Though if you do decide to PrC out of Bard, make sure you get a Vest of Legends (DMG II) - it increases your Bard level by 5 for the purposes of IC, plus a few other things.

Also, if your DMG is allowing LA buy-off rules, look into PHB Human with the Draconic template (Races of the Dragon and Draconomicon) as a race. It gives you the Dragonblood subtype necessary for DFI; +2 to Str, Con, and Cha; Darkvision; Claws; and some skill boosts, all for +1 LA.

[JKTrickster]

Another interesting option is going the Ranged route. Master's Touch means a Bard can pick up a Longbow and the Dragonfire Inspiration bonus certainly works with Ranged attacks. Charming the Arrow nets you Charisma to attacks, and Dragonfire Inspiration takes care of damage issues. With Greater Manyshot + Rapid Shot for a flurry of attacks, the Bard can be hitting lots of enemies with that extra damage.

Although I don't think this works as well as most melee bard builds to be honest, but it is interesting to think about.

[Greenish]

Also, do Crystal Echoblades absolutely have to be Longswords? Rapiers would be so much better, because then I could finesse them.Why would you want to burn a feat to increase your MAD? :smallconfused:

[Daftendirekt]

Another interesting option is going the Ranged route. Master's Touch means a Bard can pick up a Longbow and the Dragonfire Inspiration bonus certainly works with Ranged attacks. Charming the Arrow nets you Charisma to attacks, and Dragonfire Inspiration takes care of damage issues. With Greater Manyshot + Rapid Shot for a flurry of attacks, the Bard can be hitting lots of enemies with that extra damage.

Although I don't think this works as well as most melee bard builds to be honest, but it is interesting to think about.

... Why the hell would I care about anything ranged when I'm trying to get a good Snowflake Wardance build?

[Talya]

Why would you want to burn a feat to increase your MAD? :smallconfused:

Yeah, you're not relying on strength or dexterity much in a Snowflake Wardance build. Charisma is everything... (14 str and/or dex is good if you can manage them, but you're not going to be spending precious feats on using them.)

[Greenish]

... Why the hell would I care about anything ranged when I'm trying to get a good Snowflake Wardance build?Because some enemies might not come waltzing to you. :smallamused:

Also, if you're so offended by honest if misplaced advice, asking help from internet forums probably isn't good for your blood pressure.

[Daftendirekt]

Yeah, you're not relying on strength or dexterity much in a Snowflake Wardance build. Charisma is everything... (14 str and/or dex is good if you can manage them, but you're not going to be spending precious feats on using them.)

Yeah, somebody pointed out that it wouldn't work anyway as it needs to be slashing weapons, and bard doesn't have proficiency in any slashing finesseable weapons worth mentioning (dagger hardly counts).

So what priority would stats be?

CHA
INT
STR
CON
DEX
WIS

maybe?

[Greyfeld]

As popular as SFW is for "battle bards," I would argue that going Sublime Chord (and/or Virtuoso, depending on whether or not you want the extra music and the 1-level dip cheese), along with a couple Rings of Wizardry and Arcane Strike would go a lot further to increasing your melee damage.

In addition, if you go this route, you can drop Inspire Courage for Inspire Awe (DrM, pg. 13), which not only helps mitigate some potential damage at lower levels (since bards are generally squishy anyway), but also opens up options for fear stacking.

[Talya]

So what priority would stats be?

CHA
INT
STR
CON
DEX
WIS

maybe?

INT must be 13 or higher to take jack of all trades (and therefore make Bardic Knack function as wanted.) I wouldn't go any higher than 14, though, regardless.

Cha 16-18 (depending on point buy)
Int 13-14

How I'd balance the others depends on point buy and/or what you rolled.

Wisdom is definitely last, although i wouldn't want to dump anything under 10.

[Optimator]

There are what, 8 skills plus the knowledges that are trained-only? Personally, I'd rather spend the skill points than take Jack of All Trades.

[Talya]

There are what, 8 skills plus the knowledges that are trained-only? Personally, I'd rather spend the skill points than take Jack of All Trades.

it costs 22 skill points for a Savage Bard to put one rank in every trained-only skill (minus, i suppose, the points from the ones you're going to keep maxed anyway, like UMD.) This is a lot for a bard with 7-9 skill points per level. You can manage it at level 1, but then you don't have very many skills actually capped.