Alternate Fighter Class Features

[Ardantis]

So, I started a thread on the "classic party" of a wizard, rogue, fighter, cleric, and bard, and I got great responses for every class except for, you guessed it, fighter. The solution that made the most sense, "just go Warblade," rankled me because, well, Warblades aren't fighters! They do exactly what I thought I'd want a fighter to do, but the fluff is all wrong, and the melee magic seems out of place unless all the ToB classes are let in to replace old-school melee.

However, then Eldariel said this about trippers/chargers/AoO fighters:


But that is gimmicky. Even if you have two gimmicks, it's still Charge And AOO; and that's it. This is not the Master-At-Arms fighter from the days of yore Fighter nor any classic fantasy archetype that would fall under Fighter. This isn't a Fighter who can pick up a bow or a dagger depending on what the situation calls for, and slay a Dragon with it. You shouldn't have to be a charger or a tripper or an AoO machine; Fighter should only mean "this is a guy who is capable of taking and dishing out punishment".

I loved that take on the fighter- a take which is different than a Warblade, who is more of a "trained weapon master" kind of character, rather than a scrappy mercenary who improvises and knows his weapons in and out through hard-won experience.

I also noticed how awesome Dungeon Crasher was, and how it bumped the fighter a full tier just by giving a fighter some unusual bonuses.

Therefore, I am proposing alternate class features in the vein of Dungeon Crasher which make the fighter more like our "classic" imagining and less like a Warblade. I remembered back in 3.0, where the "exotic weapon master" PrC granted proficiency with all exotic weapons. This allowed a fighter to take advantage of increased flexibility, and to use weird weapons that nobody uses situationally (like bolas or lassos.)

So, here's what I propose:

Man-at-Arms

These Alternate Class Features replace the Fighter Bonus Feats at 8th and 12th levels, respectively.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (All): At level 8, the fighter gains proficiency in all exotic weapons, excluding racial weapons not of his race. For any exotic weapon (or racial exotic weapon) in which he had proficiency before gaining this ability, he now gains Weapon Focus.

Improvisational Aptitude: At level 12, the fighter may apply any feat or class ability to all weapons of the same type (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing, ranged) even if the ability is normally restricted to a single weapon (Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Lightning Maces).

Now, my biggest questions with relation to these proposed abilities are:

1) Are lvl 8 and 12 too early for these powerful abilities? Or too late for them to be useful in build planning?

2) Should weapon aptitude apply to ALL weapons, not just weapons of a similar type? (Kukris using Lightning Maces, for example) AND, if so, should you get this ability at a higher level?

Oh, and also, this is different from the Weapon Aptitude of the Warblade because it does not require an hour of training to activate (and thus rewards switching it up in combat, like using Quick Draw) AND it is more flexible and applies to more feats and abilities (making it a significant power boost for the fighter.)

So, what do you think? And what other Alternate Class Features would you consider for a fighter?

[Zaq]

The first one definitely comes WAY too late. I'd put it at, oh, second level. MAYBE third, just to fill in that dead spot. I wouldn't put the other one long after, either.

[Sucrose]

Setting aside that nothing beyond Lightning Throw that a Warblade does can really be called magic:

Those abilities do nothing to solve the out-of-combat limitations of the Fighter class, and do little to improve Fighter abilities beyond niche weapon specialization builds (and for those, you already can use a questionable interpretation of Aptitude weapons.) I'd give both of those to the Fighter at those levels at no cost whatsoever. I'd also probably move them to Fighter 5 and Fighter 7, and I'm only not moving EWP(All) to level 1 because I don't want to give as much to dippers as high-level Fighters.

If I were to improve Fighters, I would increase their skill points per level to 4+Int, and add class skills to them according to kits, emphasizing that the DM and player can work together to create additional kits of roughly the same usefulness. For example:
Guard Kit:
Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, Gather Information
Knight Kit:
Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty

I would also work on creating better feats, or making the existing ones scale.

For example, Weapon Specialization adding damage equal to your Fighter level, and Weapon Focus giving +1 to hit, +1 per three Fighter levels.

There should be a Mobile Full Attack feat that allows Fighters to full attack as a standard action, available at level 6 or 8.

Fighters should be able to get bonus feats on odd levels that require one of their existing feats as a prerequisite, allowing them to better shore up their weaknesses, by picking things up like the the Iron Will prerequisite feats from PHB II. For that matter, they should have their choice of strong Reflex or Will saves.

At higher levels, they should be able to cleave through existing spell effects like Solid Fog and Forcecage. They should be able to craft their own magical arms and armor, allowing them to prepare for specific circumstances.

Fighters should be outstanding at what they choose to specialize in, and at least passable at everything else, and should have ways of avoiding ever being truly rendered inconsequential.

[Flickerdart]

That still doesn't really help Fighter - he can murder things, sure, but he could do that already. It is also curious how you're giving Fighters a Warblade ability after stating Warblades aren't Fighters.

Dungeoncrasher raises Fighter by a tier because it gives him a new, good option that nobody else has. "Have an exotic weapon" isn't a new option, and most exotics suck anyway - plus, by the time your Fighter gets it, Master of Masks has been available for a while. Aptitude is a can of worms I won't even get into, but at the end of the day all it saves you is a +1 enchantment, and you're giving it to the Fighter at a level everyone's swimming in cash already.

[Thespianus]

So, what do you think? And what other Alternate Class Features would you consider for a fighter?
The best way to completely negate the fighter is to just walk away from him. Ignore him. Fly around him or just lock him in place with nasty black tentacles.

Give the Fighter some variants of Flying and Freedom of Movement, trivial teleport abilities. Enable him to withstand Fire and Cold, make him a hard, tough warrior, with abilities that make him useful out of combat.

in other words: Open up Tome of Battle for the Fighter and make his IL progression a full progression, like the Warblade.

Other ideas I've been toying with is to make the Fighter go into Hyper-BAB mode after level 9: Make the Fighter advance 2 BAB steps for each level, meaning a Fighter 20 end up with a BAB of 30, and letting him attack more than once as a standard action. It would probably suck, but I think radical ideas are needed. ;)

But the point is that the Fighter needs so much help. Not like the Monk, but still, a lot of help. Help that ToB gives.

[Daisuke1133]

I fully admit to being no expert on this sort of thing, but might it be possible that you could be over-valuing these abilities just a bit.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (All):
I realize that there are exceptions to this, but it is a commonly professed sentiment that many exotic weapons are not worth taking a feat to use proficiently as many are not all that much better or function very differently than weapons already on the Simple and Martial lists. Additionally most people who are interested in using an exotic weapon typically only take one or two, at least that is my experience anyway.

Another point is that not every campaign gets even that high. I think it is a good design desicion that ACFs and substitution levels should include something even for characters limited to the level 1-4 range. That way, players should be able to enjoy some new toys, even if they are only ever going to have a character at low level.

Improvisational Aptitude:
I can't really offer a good opinion one way or another on this one. I will leave it to someone more knowledgeable to render commentary on that.

Suggestions:
One thing that I like about AD&D Second Edition is the fact that different classes have different non-proficiency penalties (-2 for Warriors, -3 for Rogues & Priests, & -5 for Wizards). I think that this is something of a nice thing to implement as it does help to reinforce the fact that Fighters, Rangers, & Paladins are experts in physical combat compared to members of other classes.

Another idea that I think has merit is eliminating the distinction between the Standard and Full Attack actions. Considering what Full Casters (Particularly Wizards) can do with the action economy, allowing a Fighter to perform a move action and still use all his iterative attacks is just paltry by comparison.

You might also think about borrowing from the Pathfinder Fighter (found here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter)). It's not the best stuff to be sure, but it makes the Fighter very good at the things it is supposed to be good at.

[Jude_H]

So, what do you think? And what other Alternate Class Features would you consider for a fighter?
These don't change anything; they let the fighter do what he's already done, but with different weapons.

To even begin to address the problem, you'd need to do something drastic, like:
Versatility: At level 1, as a swift action, the Fighter may reassign one of his Fighter bonus feats to another for which he qualifies. Every subsequent odd-numbered level, this ability improves, allowing the Fighter to reassign an additional bonus feat as a part of this action.

Edit:
"The problem" being the disparity in classes' abilities to freely dumpster-dive splatbooks and to always have the proper tool at hand.

A less dramatic effect with similar results could involve an hour of prep time to completely reassign the feat list every morning. It's what the Binder, Totemist and casters do anyway.

[Psyren]

I loved that take on the fighter- a take which is different than a Warblade, who is more of a "trained weapon master" kind of character, rather than a scrappy mercenary who improvises and knows his weapons in and out through hard-won experience.



Exotic Weapon Proficiency (All): At level 8, the fighter gains proficiency in all exotic weapons, excluding racial weapons not of his race. For any exotic weapon (or racial exotic weapon) in which he had proficiency before gaining this ability, he now gains Weapon Focus.

Improvisational Aptitude: At level 12, the fighter may apply any feat or class ability to all weapons of the same type (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing, ranged) even if the ability is normally restricted to a single weapon (Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Lightning Maces).

Surely you see the irony here. Your fixes are doing exactly what you set out not to do, i.e. make the Fighter "a trained weapon master."

If you really want to model "scrappy mercenary who improvises" - don't give them proficiency with everything (and definitely not free weapon focuses.) Instead let them mitigate and eventually ignore nonproficiency penalties with weapons they practice with/use frequently. As they level, cut down the time needed for them to "understand" a weapon, and as an added bonus have all of the above apply to improvised weapons as well. (A fighter, when hefting a barstool, should have a good idea of the best way to wield it to use its potential.)

[Taelas]

The best "Fighter fix" is to mix-and-match from the Warblade, in my opinion. :smalltongue: If you just don't want to go with Warblade, you could try the following:

-Up their d10 HD to d12. (Why the Barbarian was given d12 and the Fighter wasn't is beyond me.)
-Give them Weapon Aptitude; it's cool and works fine as written for a Fighter.
-Change select maneuvers into Fighter bonus feats. (No idea which; I'm sure most would be cool.) Alternatively, give the Fighter an IL progression for some of his bonus feats, but at that point, you might as well switch to Warblade entirely.

It's not going to do much, but it'd push Fighters into high Tier 4 instead of high Tier 5.

[HappyBlanket]

These don't change anything; they let the fighter do what he's already done, but with different weapons.

To even begin to address the problem, you'd need to do something drastic, like:
Versatility: At level 1, as a swift action, the Fighter may reassign one of his Fighter bonus feats to another for which he qualifies. Every subsequent odd-numbered level, this ability improves, allowing the Fighter to reassign an additional bonus feat as a part of this action.

Edit:
"The problem" being the disparity in classes' abilities to freely dumpster-dive splatbooks and to always have the proper tool at hand.

A less dramatic effect with similar results could involve an hour of prep time to completely reassign the feat list every morning. It's what the Binder, Totemist and casters do anyway.

Paradigm Fighter.

[Mezmote]

I'd say fluff is a mutable and very flexible substance. If you don't feel that some fluff fits your image, it shouldn't take much effort to change your view of it (if you want to ofc).

In my humble opinion the fluff of the Warblade fits PERFECTLY to the classic warrior who gets in the melee and beat the face off baddies. I'd even go so far to say that they have the least magical feel of all the classes in ToB. All it takes is the right selection of maneuvers and stances to. Nothing too flashy. And the weapon aptitude just completes the class. I'm wasn't a big fan of the Weapon Focus - Specialization line, mainly because it is inflexible, but the warblade just fixed that.

Just my 2 copper pieces.

[DeltaEmil]

{Scrubbed}

[Taelas]

{Scrubbed} .

:smallsigh:
How is this useful for anything?

[HappyBlanket]

:smallsigh:
How is this useful for anything?

He's saying that ToB's Warblade precisely matches the Fighter's fluff, and that the very assertion that the Warblade is a melee magic user is absolutely preposterous.

Which is completely relevant in a thread devoted to making an improved Fighter simply because the OP believes the Warblade to be magic (and therefore unfit for the role).

[Hiro Protagonest]

He's saying that ToB's Warblade precisely matches the Fighter's fluff, and that the very assertion that the Warblade is a melee magic user is absolutely preposterous.

Yep. Fluff is bad? I didn't know fighters even had fluff, so why don't you just change it? Magic? Um, I don't see how a warblade is magic, they recover their moves by repositioning during an attack, crusaders don't even have to recover them. Don't like maneuver names? Ignore them, or go read a medieval German swordfighting manual, because they give them names like "Ox's Stance".

[Arbitrarious]

The "fighter" gains a pool of unique "fighter bonus feats" that provide options similar to tactical feats whose effects can be used only once per combat. These feats will allow "fighters" to perform many of their iconic combat actions, such as tripping, grappling, and parrying without consuming "real feat slots". This also helps balance certain attacks from being spammed so that they do not become unbalanced during play (improved trip). Many of these "bonus feats" are standard actions to use which we hope will help "fighters" compete with the action economy of casters. If the "fighter" chooses too they can completely forego the use of these "bonus feats" for 1 turn and in exchange regain the use of any "feat" they have previously expended. Some "bonus feats" are passive and operate continuously. These "feats" do not need to be recovered, but a "fighter" may only use one of these at a time.

Also we have increased the "fighter" to a d12 and added skills to their list that allow them to fulfill a wider range of archetypes rather then just meat wall with sharp pointy bits. We've also given the "fighter" class features that run off intelligence since many combat feats require a 13 int. This rewards "fighters" who want to play smart tactical characters rather then just punishing them with an ability score tax.

***Isn't this what everyone sees when reading the pickled turnip?***

[Ardantis]

Well, I was going to commend everybody on coming up with some sweet fighter fix ideas, and for taking my replacement feats and figuring out how better to place them (earlier, and with less restrictions) and even say something about how what I was going for was a lot like the 2nd Edition reduced non-proficiency penalties, but then everyone sat on me for thinking that fighters should be different from Warblades.

OK, first off, I LIKE WARBLADES.

Secondly, WARBLADES ARE NOT FIGHTERS.

I may be in the minority here, but in my opinion, the fluff produces the crunch. Not to say that, for example, the Ranger has not had two different rulesets on the same background, but that in each case, the mechanics were an attempt to make the feelings which the class conception projected playable.

Warblades (and the other ToB classes) are Eastern-inspired. Of course, a lot of that has bled into Western culture (the Matrix, for example), but the idea of a Warblade is inseparable from a highly-trained warrior. The idea of "self-trained" is almost impossible to feed into the class, and the crunch, made up of maneuvers from established Schools of Combat, reflects this.

"Fighter" may be a character trained in the army, or by the guard, but the class is by and large defined by experience, not training. WoTC tried to replicate this with feats, which represent experiential successes resulting in new abilities- new abilities he has access to at all times, whenever they are called for.

Now, I called the Warblade "magic" only because the ToB calls what he does "sword magic". It is an analogy to the arcane and divine magic systems, nothing more.

I want a fighter who feels like a fighter, and from the response I received, I am not the only one.

What might make a fighter feel more like a fighter?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well, I was going to commend everybody on coming up with some sweet fighter fix ideas, and for taking my replacement feats and figuring out how better to place them (earlier, and with less restrictions) and even say something about how what I was going for was a lot like the 2nd Edition reduced non-proficiency penalties, but then everyone sat on me for thinking that fighters should be different from Warblades.

OK, first off, I LIKE WARBLADES.

Secondly, WARBLADES ARE NOT FIGHTERS.

I may be in the minority here, but in my opinion, the fluff produces the crunch. Not to say that, for example, the Ranger has not had two different rulesets on the same background, but that in each case, the mechanics were an attempt to make the feelings which the class conception projected playable.

Warblades (and the other ToB classes) are Eastern-inspired. Of course, a lot of that has bled into Western culture (the Matrix, for example), but the idea of a Warblade is inseparable from a highly-trained warrior. The idea of "self-trained" is almost impossible to feed into the class, and the crunch, made up of maneuvers from established Schools of Combat, reflects this.

"Fighter" may be a character trained in the army, or by the guard, but the class is by and large defined by experience, not training. WoTC tried to replicate this with feats, which represent experiential successes resulting in new abilities- new abilities he has access to at all times, whenever they are called for.

Now, I called the Warblade "magic" only because the ToB calls what he does "sword magic". It is an analogy to the arcane and divine magic systems, nothing more.

I want a fighter who feels like a fighter, and from the response I received, I am not the only one.

What might make a fighter feel more like a fighter?

So now medieval knights are eastern inspired? Because they sure didn't learn everything by themselves, they trained with a master.

What makes a fighter feel like a fighter? The ability to attack more than once at the end of a charge, the ability to shake off anything, and the ability to dominate the battlefield, whether facing a single opponent or a small army. And you know what? There are maneuvers for that.

I seriously don't get how someone couldn't come up with the mithral tornado maneuver through battlefield experience, even though by your logic they could come up with great cleave or whirlwind attack.

So tell me, if you ignore the warblade fluff section and the fact that WotC put those two annoying words, "blade magic", what does make a warblade different from a fighter? Pouncing charge? There's a barbarian ACF for that. The ability to attack two foes as a standard action? Say hi to my friend the cleave feat. The ability to attack all adjacent foes? Whirlwind attack. The Diamond Mind saving throw boosting maneuvers? Iron will, lightning reflexes, and great fortitude do a pseudo-version, and you can just ignore diamond mind if you don't like it.

[Rogue Shadows]

I want a fighter who feels like a fighter, and from the response I received, I am not the only one.

What might make a fighter feel more like a fighter?

A problem here is that the Fighter is supposed to represent just about any fighting class. So, yeah, it's supposed to represent the guy who picks up a sword after a dragon attack and dedicates himself to avenge his destroyed village. It is also meant to represent a highly trained warrior.

Both versions of the class are as valid as the other.

Mechanically...if you want a fighter, but better, then don't touch those 11 feats, make the feats better, and fill the 9 dead levels with something cool. Also increase skill points to 4 + Int and add in Listen and Spot, and probably a Knowledge or two.

That's what I'd do, anyway.

[Ravens_cry]

Yes, even in Pathfinder, which has effectively given more skill points to everyone by consolidating the skill list, I would give Fighters and Sorcerers 4+ skill points. 2+Int is just not enough.
As for alternate Fighter features, I want to try the Thug Sneak Attack Fighter in the SRD and play it as a Swashbuckler.

[Keld Denar]

Didn't we just have this thread? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208463)

"I want to make the Fighter into a Warblade, but I don't want to call it a Warblade, but everything else about it should be Warbladey".

This thread needs moar pickled turnips, IMO.

[Hunter Killer]

I'm with the people that want to fix the class but not replace it, but I'll be the first person on that side of the "Let's Fix the Fighter" debate to admit that re-fluffing the Warblade to be a Fighter or similar is fine.

(I, personally, have re-fluffed the Monk for one of my NPC's to be a bar fighting tough-guy who's great with his fists but isn't necessarily a Kung-Fu master. The PC's don't regard him as an eastern archetype at all...)

What you gents on the other side aren't getting, though, is that a Warblade plays significantly different from a Fighter. Maneuvers play differently than feats and abilities. Thus the because the Warblade doesn't play like a Fighter, we don't think it feels like one.

Personally, I like some of the ideas that have been presented so far. They keep the feel of a Fighter, but don't resort to outright replacing him or giving him Maneuvers. This is what I'm thinking about for my campaigns:

1. Make Hit Die a D12. Fighter should have always had this; There's no reason the Barbarian should or must be a bigger meat shield.

2. Make the Skill Points 4+Int. The Fighters aren't supposed to be skill monkeys, but they are tactical thinkers that should have some abilities that aren't directly combat related.

3. Expanded Skill List. Spot and Listen should have been on the list from the beginning... But I think they should get things like Intimidate, Sense Motive, Gather Information, and Maybe Survival too. This way, the guy can be a bit of a talker or woodsman without replacing the Rogue or Ranger.

4. More abilities and things that scale their feats based on Fighter levels. Some of the Pathfinder abilities are good. I'm also thinking scaling bonuses for feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Two-Weapon Defense, or Armor Mastery.

5. Things that apply their feats to wide ranges of weapons, or weapons that normally would not benefit from certain feats (Like making Weapon Focus apply to a weapon type... Slashing, Piercing, Bludgeoning, Reach, Ranged, One-Handed, Two-Handed, Double, etc, or Improved Trip with a Longsword).

6. Unique abilities like Dungeon Crasher, although maybe less specific than that particular ability. Maybe something that basically scales their damage output like Dungeon Crasher does. Perhaps their mastery of a specific weapon or type of weapons allows them to upgrade the damage dice?

Just my thoughts... I think there's plenty of ways to upgrade the Fighter to make it good without adding a complex new system ala Book of Nine Swords (Like it or hate it, everyone must admit the Maneuvers and Stances are at least as complicated as the spell casting system) or significantly changing the feel or purpose of the class.

[Sucrose]

Well, I was going to commend everybody on coming up with some sweet fighter fix ideas, and for taking my replacement feats and figuring out how better to place them (earlier, and with less restrictions) and even say something about how what I was going for was a lot like the 2nd Edition reduced non-proficiency penalties, but then everyone sat on me for thinking that fighters should be different from Warblades.

OK, first off, I LIKE WARBLADES.

Secondly, WARBLADES ARE NOT FIGHTERS.

I may be in the minority here, but in my opinion, the fluff produces the crunch. Not to say that, for example, the Ranger has not had two different rulesets on the same background, but that in each case, the mechanics were an attempt to make the feelings which the class conception projected playable.

Warblades (and the other ToB classes) are Eastern-inspired. Of course, a lot of that has bled into Western culture (the Matrix, for example), but the idea of a Warblade is inseparable from a highly-trained warrior. The idea of "self-trained" is almost impossible to feed into the class, and the crunch, made up of maneuvers from established Schools of Combat, reflects this.

"Fighter" may be a character trained in the army, or by the guard, but the class is by and large defined by experience, not training. WoTC tried to replicate this with feats, which represent experiential successes resulting in new abilities- new abilities he has access to at all times, whenever they are called for.

Now, I called the Warblade "magic" only because the ToB calls what he does "sword magic". It is an analogy to the arcane and divine magic systems, nothing more.

I want a fighter who feels like a fighter, and from the response I received, I am not the only one.

What might make a fighter feel more like a fighter?

I'm afraid that I disagree with you here.

The mechanics may have been made out of the desire to make a martial school-trained swordsman, but that doesn't mean that the mechanics produced can only be used for that. That's the beauty of refluffing.

Beyond needing a certain number of school maneuvers to learn higher-level ones, the amount of influence that any given martial school has on a Warblade is exactly equal to the amount that a player wants it to have. If you don't take feats that specialize you in a discipline, that amount is 'none whatsoever.'

And before you say anything, the prerequisite maneuvers are exactly equivalent, fluffwise, to needing prerequisite feats in order to qualify for more effective ones. Both just demand that you have experience at the general style of combat that the higher-level techniques demand.

As for having all techniques available at all times, I'd say that the Fighter actually seems like more the trained martial artist than the Warblade. A trained martial artist would go through his kata as a ritual each day, have each technique performed so many times that it would be second nature to him. A warrior who learned from experience, by contrast, would need to actively think about how he defeated the last opponent that came at him like his present opponents, to be able to perform the trick that he has only needed to use a couple of times before, that dance around a larger enemy that allowed him to decapitate that ogre, or that little mental singsong that let him fend off the illithid's mental assault. Thus, he'd need to think through the sorts of enemies he could expect to fight each day, and the general attack patterns that he knows will work against such an enemy effectively; have each maneuver at the tip of his tongue, as it were.

All that said, the Fighter class is worth saving, but not because there isn't substantial overlap with Warblade in terms of themes: I believe that there is.

[Ardantis]

Well, I'm back to flog the dead horse.

Although somehow I'm still picking at scabs that people care deeply about.

Well, first off, a Knight is a different class, and rightfully so.

Second, I feel (and maybe this is just me, but I don't think so) that the commoner who raised a sword against the dragon who destroyed his village feels a lot more like a fighter than the dojo-trained warrior.

Turnips aside, here's what I've enjoyed about this thread:

1) Fighters NEED 2 more skill points per level, and Spot, Listen, and probably Knowledge (local) as class skills. Maybe even Diplomacy, to boot.

2) I still like my ideas for alternate class features, but they need to take empty levels and not cost a feat, because they're not THAT good AND they're more like legit class features than feats. I would say at 3rd and 5th, respectively. Also, just to counter some of what has been said, this is not the Warblade ability because it's always available, encouraging weapon switchups in battle or during the course of the day to meet the requirements of combat (and this should include improvised weapons). Might spread it out over a few levels, even. Think of it as a "spontaneous" version of weapon aptitude. As for the second ability, it's a huge can of worms, granted, but I think the Fighter needs it. It will open up his feat synergies.

3) I like a lot of Sucrose's ideas- namely, improve Weapon Focus to give +1 AND +1 for every three character levels, and for Weapon Specialization to give +1 damage per character level. This also makes Fighters good for multiclassing (and using only one weapon as providing a real solid bonus.)

4) A "Mobile Full Attack" class ability by level 6 is VERY strong, I think. Still a great idea, perhaps by level 11. As for high-level antimagic abilities, what I wish for is more feats like Mage Slayer which could be taken at high levels to overcome or at least deal with magic better. Someone on the forums has some interesting stuff about "Awakened" feats or something which involves immediate action moves to land AoOs as far as your move, which is very anti-caster.

5) What the fighter really suffers from, besides a lack of flexibility (in weapons AND in feat synergies AND in skill choice) is dead levels. 9 of them. WoTC didn't realize just how underpowered a class would be with that many empty levels, and they thought that the flexibility in feats would make up for it, but it didn't.

In short, I love what this thread has produced (including the acrimony, because it shows we care,) but there are still, oh, 5 or 6 dead levels of fighter which could use some love. Any more great ideas?

EDIT: Hunter Killer, that is EXACTLY what I'm trying to say, and how I'm trying to say it. You just posted while I was typing this. Thank you.

[Jude_H]

I may be in the minority here, but in my opinion, the fluff produces the crunch.
A bit of an aside, but given the release time of ToB relative to 3e's production and 4e's announcement, it was the Fighter fluff that produced the ToB crunch.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I like the idea that was mentioned before, about being able to swap out your feats. or have some ability to retrain them repetitively quickly.

So like you spend 8 hours training and you can change any of your fighter bonus feats, to other fighter bonus feats.


Ya fighters can't fly... there not supposed to innately. A fighter fighting something needs to over come it via cunning or use terrain to his advantage.


and yes TOB are sword magic. Not every one wants to spend the time refluffing.

[Terazul]

and yes TOB are sword magic. Not every one wants to spend the time refluffing.
:smallannoyed:
Yay for maneuver cards being free from WotC!
Disarming Strike
Iron Heart (Strike)
Level: Warblade 2
Initiation: Standard Action
Range: Melee Attack

You chop at your foe's hand, causing a grievous injury and forcing him to drop his weapon.

Make a single melee attack as part of this strike. If this attack hits and deals damage, you may also attempt to disarm your opponent (PHB 155). This disarm attempt does not provoke any attacks of opportunity, nor is there any risk that your foe can disarm you.


Good lord. To perform with that level of skill he must be some sort of wizard. So much refluffing to be done to make that mundane! No really, most maneuvers don't even come close to resembling magic. There's two supernatural schools, and Warblades don't get them.

[RagnaroksChosen]

:smallannoyed:
Yay for maneuver cards being free from WotC!
Disarming Strike
Iron Heart (Strike)
Level: Warblade 2
Initiation: Standard Action
Range: Melee Attack

You chop at your foe's hand, causing a grievous injury and forcing him to drop his weapon.

Make a single melee attack as part of this strike. If this attack hits and deals damage, you may also attempt to disarm your opponent (PHB 155). This disarm attempt does not provoke any attacks of opportunity, nor is there any risk that your foe can disarm you.


Good lord. To perform with that level of skill he must be some sort of wizard. So much refluffing to be done to make that mundane! No really, most maneuvers don't even come close to resembling magic. There's two supernatural schools, and Warblades don't get them.



Wow so you picked the easiest one.... woo... still doesn't change any thing..
Some of the diamond mind sound very magic-y and either way there "swordmagic" as per the book VIA RAW it's magic.

[Terazul]

Diamond mind, you say!

Hearing the Air
Diamond Mind (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 5, warblade 5
Prerequisite: Two Diamond Mind maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Your perception becomes so fine that you can hear the tiniest flutter of air moving past you. Invisible foes and other hidden threats become as plain as day in the area of your heightened senses.

Drawing on your combat training, sharpened senses, and capability to predict your enemy’s moves, you become a faultless sentinel on the battlefield. Even the smallest detail or stealthiest enemy cannot hope to evade your notice.
While you are in this stance, you gain blindsense out to 30 feet and a +5 insight bonus on Listen checks.

More magic there, yeah. No really, there are far more mundane examples than anything resembling magic.

And no, via RAW it's Ex Abilities. Which may break the laws of physics by very definition, but are in no way form or fashion magic.

Seriously, It gets called Blade Magic like, ONCE as the name of some chapter, with reference to Swordsages and everyone freakin' runs with it, while explicitly ignoring the sentence in the first chapter:

"The Sublime Way is not magical... It is a fighting system that harnesses a student's discipline and determination through knowledge, practice, and study.

If that's not mundane, I don't know what is. Hell, none of the initiatiors I've ever played have ever been trained, because most of this stuff is mundane enough that someone could reasonably figure it out themselves. There's like 33 odd supernatural maneuvers out of the 200ish, and those are within two schools a Warblade doesn't even have access to.

[Rossebay]

Well, I was going to commend everybody on coming up with some sweet fighter fix ideas, and for taking my replacement feats and figuring out how better to place them (earlier, and with less restrictions) and even say something about how what I was going for was a lot like the 2nd Edition reduced non-proficiency penalties, but then everyone sat on me for thinking that fighters should be different from Warblades.

OK, first off, I LIKE WARBLADES.

Secondly, WARBLADES ARE NOT FIGHTERS.

I may be in the minority here, but in my opinion, the fluff produces the crunch. Not to say that, for example, the Ranger has not had two different rulesets on the same background, but that in each case, the mechanics were an attempt to make the feelings which the class conception projected playable.

Warblades (and the other ToB classes) are Eastern-inspired. Of course, a lot of that has bled into Western culture (the Matrix, for example), but the idea of a Warblade is inseparable from a highly-trained warrior. The idea of "self-trained" is almost impossible to feed into the class, and the crunch, made up of maneuvers from established Schools of Combat, reflects this.

"Fighter" may be a character trained in the army, or by the guard, but the class is by and large defined by experience, not training. WoTC tried to replicate this with feats, which represent experiential successes resulting in new abilities- new abilities he has access to at all times, whenever they are called for.

Now, I called the Warblade "magic" only because the ToB calls what he does "sword magic". It is an analogy to the arcane and divine magic systems, nothing more.

I want a fighter who feels like a fighter, and from the response I received, I am not the only one.

What might make a fighter feel more like a fighter?


I completely agree with you here. Secondly, I really like how everyone is telling you that you want fighter to be a warblade and throwing warblade in your face when you're specifically asking about how to improve the Fighter Class. Not the Warblade Class.
And if they can't read bolded print, god help us.
Anyway, I feel like the auto-proficiency idea was great, and so was the skill idea. Some fixes I've done in campaigns I've run:

- Give them Improved Unarmed Strike for free. They're proficient with a lot. Who says they don't know how to punch, too?
- Give them Int. Bonus to AC, stacking as an untyped bonus. This only applies when wielding only one One-Handed weapon or Light weapon, and not carrying a shield.
- As previously mentioned, d12 hit die.
- Brutal Throw and Weapon Finesse automatically awarded.
- Any feat they take as a Fighter feat that usually requires one to select a certain weapon (Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, etc.) applies to all weapons used.
- Gain proficiency with all exotic weapons somewhere around level 8 or so.
- Occasionally I'll give my players 6+Int if the campaign will be skill-heavy.
- For every 4 class levels, the armor check penalty on armor is reduced by 1 and the max dex bonus increases by 1.
- Can Full Attack on a charge.

These are all things I've given to my players while they've played fighters. Not all at once, but a lot of these things really helped the fighter be useful in any situation. From the start, my fighters are preforming just as well as wizards and rogues. They've all got their specialty, and out of combat I reward creative use of weapons and crafting feats. Some of these things may imbalance a game if a player abuses them, but if the DM can trust the player to not abuse the systems in place, they can really help a game out.

And, again, not all of these should be applied at once. But situationally, they're nice fixes I've found.

[Thespianus]

Seriously, It gets called Blade Magic like, ONCE in some chapter
You mean the chapter that starts off something like:
"The uncanny power of the Sublime Way springs from a blend of physical skill, mental self-discipline, and adherence to distinct martial philosophies. Many of the maneuvers of the various martial disciplines aren’t magic at all—they are simply demonstrations of near-superhuman skill and training"

;)

But if people think that it's too magicy to be able to attack two opponents in a single round, then call the Maneuvers "Feats" and make them available as bonus feats.

[Terazul]

I mean, I guess.

What I'm seeing isn't people being necessarily down on improving the Fighter. We'd like the Fighter to be good! But most of the suggested changes don't actually fix its issues, and for all the things you'd have to do (adding feats that do better things and are comparable to maneuvers, making them fighter exclusive so other people can't get them, better skills, better proficiency) just to get them started, you might as well just give them class features and some special combat options, making an overall different class than you begin with.

...Which more or less leaves them the same as a Warblade, without all the fuss.

[Thespianus]

(...)These are all things I've given to my players while they've played fighters. Not all at once, but a lot of these things really helped the fighter be useful in any situation.

Your list of improvements help mainly help the Fighter use a variety of weapons, improve his AC, his Hit Points, etc. I don't think dealing damage is the problem that the Fighter is having.

Adding more skill points helps if you also expand the skill list.

The problem the Fighter has is to reach his enemy, to contribute to the party and to be useful outside of fights.

IMHO, the Fighter needs:
- boosts to movement: Freedom of Movement and Fly , for example, shouldn't be completely excluded. Some version of those spells would be good.

- boosts to ranged damage even if he doesn't specialize crazily to go into ranged combat.

- some party morale boosters. Add features from the Legendary Leader PrC in Heros of Battle to the standard Fighter. Make the Fighter an inspiration to the people that follow him into battle.

- Something like the Iron Heart Surge maneuver to shake off damaging effects.

It doesn't need more of the regular Fighter Feats and I don't think it needs small boosts to AC.

[Safety Sword]

Step 1. Get actual class features.
Step 2. Get alternate class features.

[Ardantis]

Rossebay-

Thanks for your support, that's exactly what I'm looking for. How did those abilities work for your fighters, in your games?

I particularly like Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Finesse, and Brutal Throw being made available to the fighter, the first at level one and the others at dead levels. It epitomizes what I'm trying to express about the class.

Terazul-

Perhaps I was a bit rash in trotting out the "blade magic" line, especially in lieu of what you and others have been quoting directly from ToB. Only the Swordsage is explicitly "magical" or "supernatural," and the Warblade is not technically magical.

However, the maneuver system is built like a caster system. It is studied before it is experienced, and the characters are not married to the maneuvers the way a fighter is married to his feats. The maneuvers are separate from the character, while a fighter IS his feats, to a degree.

It is a lot like the difference between a wizard and a warlock, really- the warlock is simpler, and his powers are explicit and available, while the wizard selects his, and must pay attention to his chosen powers each morning.

I'm not looking to make the fighter into a warblade. I'm just looking for sage advice on what abilities might make a fighter better (we're talking Tier 3 as a goal, I think) without sacrificing the "spontaneous" mechanic that makes him what he is. Should that make him appear to be a whole different class, well, 9 class abilities to fill the dead levels probably ought to make him appear to be a different class! We're talking the difference between a 3.0 and a 3.5 Ranger, I'd wager, in which the crunch was made to better express the already existing fluff.

[Rossebay]

Your list of improvements help mainly help the Fighter use a variety of weapons, improve his AC, his Hit Points, etc. I don't think dealing damage is the problem that the Fighter is having.

Adding more skill points helps if you also expand the skill list.

The problem the Fighter has is to reach his enemy, to contribute to the party and to be useful outside of fights.

IMHO, the Fighter needs:
- boosts to movement: Freedom of Movement and Fly , for example, shouldn't be completely excluded. Some version of those spells would be good.

- boosts to ranged damage even if he doesn't specialize crazily to go into ranged combat.

- some party morale boosters. Add features from the Legendary Leader PrC in Heros of Battle to the standard Fighter. Make the Fighter an inspiration to the people that follow him into battle.

- Something like the Iron Heart Surge maneuver to shake off damaging effects.

It doesn't need more of the regular Fighter Feats and I don't think it needs small boosts to AC.

Hahaha. Sorry, I always forget about the increased skill list. Yes, I include that too.

As far as special options go, it's hard to list them all. I have players approach me and ask if they can sacrifice a feat slot or two in order to gain the ability to gain a climb speed equal to land speed, be able to glide or fly, run while doing either, maybe for some Sneak Attack damage...
I've always let them Power Attack with a bow. 2xBAB Damage, like a 2-hander. No way to double it like with Leap Attack, so it stops there.

I also tend to throw magic items at fighters to give them more versatility in combat. Ranged magic attacks, magic masks allowing them to snipe better, health-regeneration... Occasionally the ability to cast cantrips. 3+Int known, infinite casts per day. Only in the more magicy campaigns, of course.


@Ardantis: For my players, they were able to participate in most combat situations. Flying enemies were a piece of cake (Unless I put them far out of range or any other miscellaneous stunts). Oh, right! I've given them Throw Anything at level 1 as well, so one of my players was in the habit of throwing every sword he had on him, then shooting them down.
Sunder Checks against limbs, those are always helpful. We've got a system set up that allows a player to target limbs and disable their foes in combat. This includes causing flying foes to crash, or pommel-bashing an enemy's wrist to cause penalties on attack rolls.

[Terazul]

@Ardantis

Hmm. I guess I can see what you're going for in that? Sorta? Though discipline and maneuver choice really do decide what you're good at--Rallying friends? Jumping on dudes with multiple attacks? Single devastating strikes? I mean sure, you can change them out a bit as you go on, but most of them are just upgrading to better versions of what you already have. I mean, that's the problem with the Fighter: He picks one thing to be good at and that's all he can do forever, because feats are a more permanent choice, and don't scale too well for the flat numerical stuff. I guess we can change that to pick "a couple things".

Perhaps set up something akin to Ranger Combat Styles? Abilities they can pick from every couple levels, but instead pick out specific, and some of the more useful, maneuvers as inspiration. Like Sudden Leap! For when your Fighter really needs to jump way over there as a swift action. Useful in combat, and in general. It would take a bit to comb through to find just what you want, but I think it's a step in the right direction? The modular "build your own melee" thing people want from Fighters, while also making the decisions permanent and unflinching.

[Keld Denar]

However, the maneuver system is built like a caster system. It is studied before it is experienced, and the characters are not married to the maneuvers the way a fighter is married to his feats. The maneuvers are separate from the character, while a fighter IS his feats, to a degree.

Hmmm, funny. So does that mean that a 2e Fighter wasn't a Fighter, because he didn't have feats? Or the 1e Fighter? The 4e Fighter gets feats, but not bonus feats, so I guess he isn't a Fighter either.

You can't be married to tradition AND deny tradition at the same time. The fighter is what you want it to be, but what it isn't is the feats. Read the other thread I linked for an entire rehash of exactly this arguement.

[Hunter Killer]

Your list of improvements help mainly help the Fighter use a variety of weapons, improve his AC, his Hit Points, etc. I don't think dealing damage is the problem that the Fighter is having.
I disagree on this somewhat. The Fighter is having trouble keeping up with the raw damage or death affects casters can pump out at higher levels.

Seriously... Just think about it: Can you name me any pure Fighter build that can do an effect akin to Meteor Swarm? That's 32d6 (4 x 2d6+6d6, if you want to get technical) in a 40ft wide area that costs one spell and one Standard Action.

Weapon damage does not scale like that. To make the Fighter even remotely effective, it needs to. That's why I suggested upgrading weapon damage dice every few levels and/or more Dungeon Crasher style abilities.

This doesn't mean that I don't think a good Fighter build can't do some good damage, I do, but it absolutely cannot do anything close to that in one Standard Action (Perhaps even a Full Attack, for that matter!).


The problem the Fighter has is to reach his enemy, to contribute to the party and to be useful outside of fights.

IMHO, the Fighter needs:
- boosts to movement: Freedom of Movement and Fly , for example, shouldn't be completely excluded. Some version of those spells would be good.
I like the idea of giving the Fighter something that improves either his movement speed or his ability to get through difficult terrain. It definitely fits the archetype I have in my head and does make him more effective.

I do not, however, like the idea of giving the Fighter any supernatural abilities that would allow him to replicate Fly or Dimension Door. I think it's good for him to be weak in that area and rely on the casters or items to give him those abilities.


- boosts to ranged damage even if he doesn't specialize crazily to go into ranged combat.
Again, upgrading weapon damage dice could do this. Not sure of what the mechanics would be to prevent a super optimized archery build from being super cheesed, but I think the idea has some merit here.


- some party morale boosters. Add features from the Legendary Leader PrC in Heros of Battle to the standard Fighter. Make the Fighter an inspiration to the people that follow him into battle.
I get where you're going with this, but I dunno if I believe that should be part of the Fighter's standard abilities. I always saw that as more of the Bard or Paladin's schtick.

Perhaps if we came up with a way to do Combat Styles or Fighter Kits like what was suggested earlier in the thread, then this could be a specific area that a Fighter could focus into.


- Something like the Iron Heart Surge maneuver to shake off damaging effects.
I like this idea. Having the Fighter's pure determination be able to shrug off or delay the effects of a spell or ability would certainly fit and be particularly useful, though I think it should specifically be status effects or poisons (Not literally any spell like with Iron Heart Surge).

I also think he should get resistance to damage ala a small Damage Reduction bonus or maybe an ability that allows him to delay taking damage until the next round.


It doesn't need more of the regular Fighter Feats and I don't think it needs small boosts to AC.
Agreed on the additional feats, but I could go either way on the boosts to AC. Granted, the Fighter has little trouble maximizing AC, but I think 'Walking Tank' should be a viable Fighter archetype.

[Psyren]

However, the maneuver system is built like a caster system. It is studied before it is experienced, and the characters are not married to the maneuvers the way a fighter is married to his feats. The maneuvers are separate from the character, while a fighter IS his feats, to a degree.


No character in 3.5 IS his feats. That's the whole POINT of feats! They're universal "building blocks" you can slot in and out of a variety of characters, like lego bricks.

That the Fighter gets more of them than other classes does not modify the underlying system in the least.

Or to put it more succinctly:


Step 1. Get actual class features.
Step 2. Get alternate class features.

[Rossebay]

No character in 3.5 IS his feats. That's the whole POINT of feats! They're universal "building blocks" you can slot in and out of a variety of characters, like lego bricks.

That the Fighter gets more of them than other classes does not modify the underlying system in the least.

Or to put it more succinctly:

If a fighter isn't his feats, what is he?

If you take away those feats, you have a BAB and skill points worth nada. Oh, and a fortitude save. It makes him a warrior.

The only distinguishable feature of a fighter IS his feats. It makes him a fighter. Therefore, the feats make the fighter.

And that's what this thread is attempting to fix.

[Rogue Shadows]

Hopefully by keeping the feats in place and simply filling in the 9 dead levels...Fighter should still stand out as "the" customizeable combat class, and feats are the easiest way to achieve that.

[Safety Sword]

... "the" customizeable combat class, and feats are the easiest way to achieve that.

I guess that's what the designers were thinking.

News flash: it doesn't work all that well. I know, shocking, right? :smalleek:

Fighters tend to be boring because their entire existence revolves around doing one thing. And doing it badly doesn't help.

You simply can't make feats that are useful enough to substitute for actual class features (taking feat chains that allow you to be substandard at best doesn't make a good tough "fighter" archetype).

[kardar233]

Weapon damage does not scale like that. To make the Fighter even remotely effective, it needs to. That's why I suggested upgrading weapon damage dice every few levels and/or more Dungeon Crasher style abilities.

How about giving them an effective size increase with all proficient weapons at 5th level, and again every four levels after that?

[Psyren]

The only distinguishable feature of a fighter IS his feats. It makes him a fighter. Therefore, the feats make the fighter.

I think we're talking past each other.
You're right that the feats are the only thing that separates a Fighter from a Warrior. But that fact doesn't make feats special, which is what I'm saying.


Hopefully by keeping the feats in place and simply filling in the 9 dead levels...Fighter should still stand out as "the" customizeable combat class, and feats are the easiest way to achieve that.

Pathfinder tried that, and even created several feats that it's hard for non-fighters to get. Whaddya know, still T5.

[darkdragoon]

Access to multiple exotic weapons is hardly as useful as it sounds. Mostly overlap--if you have a spiked chain there's little reason to pick up the other chain types. Heck the racial clause means you can't even consider a Drow Scorpion Chain anyway. And you run into the same basic problem with just about anything else. So outside of "I have a Jovar and Scorpion Claws! Why? I dunno lol" you are replacing a feat with the same feat.

I'd also question how opening up kusari-gama, meteor hammers, shuriken etc. avoids any type of "Eastern flavor."

The aptitude feature helps, certainly, but still, you use what, 6 instead of 8 feats now? (more like 7 since your version eats one) Maybe a charge happy guy gets Lightning Mace and Axespike, but we're talking two conditional extra attacks on somebody that should already be doing lots of damage.

The rest I'm not sure I should even bring up. The trees need to be less bloated rather than "uh, you're good at combat right? here take Combat Expertise for free"

[Lans]

Seriously... Just think about it: Can you name me any pure Fighter build that can do an effect akin to Meteor Swarm? That's 32d6 (4 x 2d6+6d6, if you want to get technical) in a 40ft wide area that costs one spell and one Standard Action.

Weapon damage does not scale like that. To make the Fighter even remotely effective, it needs to. That's why I suggested upgrading weapon damage dice every few levels and/or more Dungeon Crasher style abilities.

.
An archer could do that to a single target. Many shot 4 arrows with a splitting bow 8d12 avgs 52 vs 112. So he just needs another 8 points per shot to cover the difference.

Doesn't have the area, but I don't think thats a reasonable expectation of a mundane characters abilities

Edit- I am a fan of giving a fighter access to entire chains on some levels.
For example at 1st or 3rd he gets Power Attack, Expertise, TWF and Precise Shot.

Then later on he could get Cleave, improved trip, ITWF, and point blank shot.

Not entirely thought out, but it adds versitility

[Thespianus]

I wrote a fairly lengthy reply to this, but the dreaded backup monster ate it. Sorry for rewriting a smaller answer with just a few comments:

Seriously... Just think about it: Can you name me any pure Fighter build that can do an effect akin to Meteor Swarm? That's 32d6 (4 x 2d6+6d6, if you want to get technical) in a 40ft wide area that costs one spell and one Standard Action.

Weapon damage does not scale like that.
No, but it scales over time instead. The "damage output spectrum" for a Fighter vs a Blaster Wizard shows that a Fighter can chop up mooks all day, while a Blaster Wizard can only do it in very limited bursts. After 20 Standard Actions, the Blaster Wizard is spent, but the Fighter can go all day against an army of goblins and whatnot. The only limitation is hitpoints.

So, over time, the Fighter can do that kind of damage. But not in the nova bursts of the Wizard.

(Granted, the wizard can get Fiery Burst to do some kind of damage all day too)


I do not, however, like the idea of giving the Fighter any supernatural abilities that would allow him to replicate Fly or Dimension Door. I think it's good for him to be weak in that area and rely on the casters or items to give him those abilities.
You may be right here, Fly might be too much, but an ability like the Sudden Leap maneuver from ToB would be ok, IMHO. The Fighter needs increased mobility.


I get where you're going with this, but I dunno if I believe that should be part of the Fighter's standard abilities. I always saw that as more of the Bard or Paladin's schtick.
The Bard inspires from the back lines, the Paladin insires from the front line. I see the Fighter as a front line inspiration leader, but without the religious overtones of the Paladin.

I wouldn't mind of the Paladin was a better Leader, but the Fighter should be able to be almost as good.


Perhaps if we came up with a way to do Combat Styles or Fighter Kits like what was suggested earlier in the thread, then this could be a specific area that a Fighter could focus into.
Maybe, but I don't like the Fighter to be locked into one "type" of Fighter. Archery is feat intensive, and you can't do a Sword'n'Board character well if you also want to be able to use Archery.

Sure, a Fighter could have his wheel house features, sure, but he shouldn't be utterly pants at the other "modes" of melee or ranged combat.


I like this idea. Having the Fighter's pure determination be able to shrug off or delay the effects of a spell or ability would certainly fit and be particularly useful, though I think it should specifically be status effects or poisons (Not literally any spell like with Iron Heart Surge).
The former is pretty much how we play IHS anyway, so that's fine by me.

[FMArthur]

Someone here once said that Fighter Bonus feats should be expanded and consolidated into packages of abilities, as if they were all Tactical feats, and I really liked that idea. It's because the problem starts at the feats; fixing the Fighter when you refuse let go of its status as a pure-feat class means fixing the feats, which is a pretty hard thing if you try to revise them all. But simply taking existing feats and gluing them together, you could dramatically reduce the Fighter's huge problem of overspecialization, and it would make weak feats actually usable as parts of other feats, with not as much effort spent rewriting the feats themselves.

If each feat gave a package of three different abilities, you could actually approach ToB-level combat versatility. Because that's pretty much the difference between the ToB classes and the feat-driven melee classes (ie all non-ToB, noncaster melee classes); ToB gets a bunch of diverse abilities that more or less replicate the functions of existing melee combat feats - often in weaker form, but with far less investment - and they get way more of them. If you can get the Fighter's feats to do this, they would be far more interesting and versatile to play than they are now.

You could make the consolidated feat packages a Fighter-only thing if you want to restrict the widespread effect of the buff. Many existing 3-feat-chains would comfortably collapse into single feats as well.

[Ardantis]

See, now we're getting to it!

Love it.

So, a few notes:

I'm glad someone challenged me on the "racial weapons" clause. Especially after that comment about improvised weapons, I believe that it is important that the fighter is considered combat competent with really anything he touches, and that includes racial weapons. It also includes improvised weapons, and the weapons of other cultures. The fighter should be able to use an Eastern-inspired weapon not because he's Eastern-inspired, but because he's just that good at figuring out how to mess people up with anything.

I'm not looking to do what PF did to the fighter. The "harder to get" feats don't make it more appealing to go into a class which mostly consists of having more of things that other classes already have access to.

I'm looking to create a system which makes a fighter able to do more with the feats he takes- more flexibility, more options, and maybe a "special" version of a feat or two. And yes, a few of the ToB maneuvers would make excellent feats- the difference being that those abilities are now available to the fighter as feats- all the time, however often (unless the ability is really broken that way.)

As for "big" special abilities, like fly and freedom of movement, they go against what the Fighter is- namely, non-magical. However, extra moves and bonuses against terrain are all wonderful ideas.

I also like the idea of the fighter automatically having access to some of the more "basic" feats, to make him "basically" competent in a number of arenas, but my worries are these- why not just give him more feats? how can we make it so that he has an advantage with any weapon style WITHOUT making the class a dip class for a smorgasbord of basic abilities? I think it is more important to help the class be better with the feats available.

Here's what I'm thinking, so far.

Skillpoints 4+int per level
Additional Class Skills: Sense Motive, Spot, Listen, Survival, Diplomacy
Hit Die: d10 (this is up for debate, but I still don't think fighters are Barbs or Warblades)

Lvl 1 Bonus Feat
Lvl 2 Bonus Feat
Lvl 3 Nonproficiency Penalties Reduced by 1
Lvl 4 Bonus Feat, Nonproficiency Penalties Reduced by 2
Lvl 5 Improvised Aptitude, Nonproficiency Penalties Reduced by 3
Lvl 6 Bonus Feat, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (All) Improved Unarmed Strike
Lvl 7 ??????? Perhaps a terrrain feature ???????????????
Lvl 8 Bonus Feat
Lvl 9 Move and Full Attack
Lvl 10 Bonus Feat
Lvl 11 ????????????? Help me out here people ????????????
Lvl 12 Bonus Feat
Lvl 13 ????????????? Need more actual class features ????????
Lvl 14 Bonus Feat
Lvl 15 ???????????? Something powerful ????????????????????
Lvl 16 Bonus Feat
Lvl 17 ???????????? Something really really big??????????????
Lvl 19 Bonus Feat
Lvl 20 ?????????????? A serious capstone ??????????????????

Weapon Focus acts as the regular feat, except it grants an additional +1 to hit per three fighter levels (and after Improvised Aptitude, applies to every weapon with the same damage type)

Weapon Specialization gives +1 damage per fighter level, instead of the flat +2. (and after Improvised Aptitude, applies to every weapon with the same damage type)

Individual ToB maneuvers may be taken as fighter bonus feats. The maneuver is then available for use at any time, without the need for preparation or expenditure. This is limited to the Iron Heart, Tiger Claw, and Diamond Mind disciplines. The effects of Improvised Aptitude apply to these feats.

(That last clause may be too broken. I think it's more likely that there are only certain maneuvers which make sense. I know that Iron Heart Surge or a variant is a real necessity, and I like that swift jump one. I am not married to this clause.)

EDIT: FMArthur. You are so right about collapsing basic feats into "packages."

For example:
After level 3, the Fighter may take the following feat packages in the place of a single fighter bonus feat:

Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot

NOW we're cooking with gas.

What feat packages IN PARTICULAR do you think would make sense?

[The Glyphstone]

Considering Martial Study is already a Fighter Bonus feat, I wouldn't call it broken at all.
EDIT: Though the at-will usage could be broken...if the point is to make a Fighter good without making them a Martial Adept, making them better at Maneuvers that an actual Adept (by means of the ability to spam a powerful move every turn) seems counterintuitive.

[Ardantis]

Glyphstone:

Well, yes, I agree with you about the ToB maneuvers, and I am loathe to appropriate them more than is necessary (although a few of them represent abilities which make sense for a fighter but are not available in other ways).

Perhaps the direction of being able to take "feat packages" of weaker feats makes more sense for a generalist fighter.

If so, what feats, exactly, would you put into a package?

Say, Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave as a package, or Dodge, Mobility, and Improved Initiative?

Or are some of those feats too powerful? (Power Attack and Improved Initiative, I'm looking at you)

[The Glyphstone]

Actually, I'd put Combat Reflexes, Cleave, and Great Cleave together, on the logic that all of them involve hitting people more often than you normally should.

Make Dodge a scaling bonus (1/4 levels?), package it with Iron Will/Lighting Reflexes/Great Fortitude (have them scale as well), in the "not getting hurt" package".

Improved Initiative, Mobility and Spring attack could go together, with Bounding Assault and whatever the 3x Spring Attack feat is folded in.

[FMArthur]

Glyphstone:

Well, yes, I agree with you about the ToB maneuvers, and I am loathe to appropriate them more than is necessary (although a few of them represent abilities which make sense for a fighter but are not available in other ways).

Perhaps the direction of being able to take "feat packages" of weaker feats makes more sense for a generalist fighter.

If so, what feats, exactly, would you put into a package?

Say, Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave as a package, or Dodge, Mobility, and Improved Initiative?

Or are some of those feats too powerful? (Power Attack and Improved Initiative, I'm looking at you)

I would actually make it a point to package weaker feats with stronger feats, and packaging feats which are flavorfully-related but don't directly synergize all that well.

For instance, when you package Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Knockback together, they just keep doing what they were doing before and take Shock Trooper and more damage enhancing feats. They free up other feats, but again they would probably be all be for enhancing that one trick (this guy would be a Dungeon Crasher).

If on the other hand, each were different parts of separate packages, the Fighter could get that PA/IB/KB/ST combo going just as he would as a default Fighter, but along with them he would also recieve a slew of tertiary abilities that make him competent in various other situations that he didn't necessarily have to build for, like cleaving, sundering and a bunch of skill feats (with +3 or +4 bonuses instead of +2).

On specifics, I don't have a whole lot, but here's a few quick examples:
Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Great Cleave (ripped off of an alternate Ranger Combat Style :smallbiggrin:)
Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Acrobatic
Precise Shot, Shot on the Run, Alertness
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Endurance, Diehard, Improved Toughness
Two-Weapon Fighting, plus Improved and Greater according to BAB
Two-Weapon Defense, Double Hit (MH; AoO with two weapons), Lightning Reflexes
Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Trample
Mounted Archery, Point Blank Shot, Track
Combat Reflexes, Deft Hands, Weapon Finesse

And it keeps going from there. This isn't even close to the amount you'd need to make, even in core, but it's a start. I'm thinking they should have few or no prerequisites besides a particular Fighter level. If you go that way you could list the packages in the class description like a spell list; 1st level Fighter Feat Packages, 2nd level Fighter Feat Packages, 4th level Fighter Feat Packages, 6th, etc. Existing Tactical feats could be added to the lists as-is; their main problems are just horrible prerequisites, which you wouldn't need to deal with here.

None of these packages look all that impressive, but together they grant a huge pool of abilities at fairly early levels, and it just keeps adding up. As a downside Fighters would become a complicated class with a messy character sheet - moreso than a ToB class after a certain level - but complexity and skillfulness was originally intended to be what Fighters had over Barbarians and other warriors anyway. You might as well actually give it to them. :smallwink:

[Thespianus]

Only thing that worries me with the "packages" is dipping. Fighter 2 is already a good dip, but if you got even more "package" feats, it would be even more so.

If the "packages" don't come into play until level 4, I think it would encourage people to stay in the class.

[The Glyphstone]

A solution to that might have the packages 'unlock' at certain levels - Dodge when you take it, Mobility for free at 4th, and Spring Attack for free at 6th, for instance. Thus, if you only take a 2-level fighter dip, you never 'unlock' the latter two feats.

[Ardantis]

Firstly, thank you FMArthur for taking the time to put together feat packages. I like the reasoning behind them. May I appropriate them for this Alternate Class Build?

Now I have to get to work on making more of them.

Glyphstone, I like your ideas as well, although grouping by "what they do" might be detrimental should the power levels not mesh. Putting the mounted feats together, for example, is no big deal because none of them are that powerful, or that useful as prerequisites.

However, having the packages "roll out" over time might be good, albeit a little complicated.

And Thespanius, I wholeheartedly agree that these packages should not be available before level 4. I think I will move the Reduced Non-Proficiency Penalty abilities up to level two to give dippers a taste of what they're missing.

[FMArthur]

Yeah, having each scale by Fighter level would be a good anti-dipping thing. If the second and third parts of each package only come online at say, 4th and 8th level, then Fighter dips from other classes are no stronger than current Fighter dips, while sticking with Fighter compounds your abilities. I'd prefer this to having packages only start at 4th level - having the feats you selected at 1st and 2nd level grow as the Fighter grows makes a lot of sense to me.


Firstly, thank you FMArthur for taking the time to put together feat packages. I like the reasoning behind them. May I appropriate them for this Alternate Class Build?

Sure, go right ahead. But you'll need to put at least two other books' worth of feats (like CW and CAdv) into packages as well to have enough of them. Even if you put together the minimum of 11 Packages required to make a 20th level Fighter, their value sort of peters out if you start having to take packages that require mutually-exclusive combat styles. It's nice to be versatile, but I feel like that should come alongside the options you selected for your specialty as an added benefit, otherwise it's too unfocused to want to continue advancing the class.

In order for building one not to be a chore, I'd also recommend putting a shortened description of what each one does; you can give a good enough rundown of a feat for it to be understood without infringing on the copyright of the noncore books. Obviously this is a bit more work, but doing this would also make it easier for you to organize and review the packages as you work on it.

[Thespianus]

Sure, go right ahead. But you'll need to put at least two other books' worth of feats (like CW and CAdv) into packages as well to have enough of them. Even if you put together the minimum of 11 Packages required to make a 20th level Fighter, their value sort of peters out if you start having to take packages that require mutually-exclusive combat styles.

Also, you'd really need more like 22 of them. Otherwise, every Fighter 20 is exactly like any other Fighter 20.

[Rogue Shadows]

Pathfinder tried that, and even created several feats that it's hard for non-fighters to get. Whaddya know, still T5.

So Pathfinder didn't try hard enough. I do hold Pathfinder as an example of actual effort put into fixing Fighter, though.

Hmm.

One of the bigger problems facing the Fighter is MAD. What if the Fighter got +1 to any physical ability score at the same time when they'd normally get a bonus to any ability score? And they are allowed to put both boosts into one score.

So the default array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8 could eventually become, say...19, 16, 15, 12, 12, 8.

[Flickerdart]

How do you handle multiclassing with that? "Higher numbers" still isn't a class feature, so people are going to get out, and then it gets complicated.

[MeeposFire]

So Pathfinder didn't try hard enough. I do hold Pathfinder as an example of actual effort put into fixing Fighter, though.

Hmm.

One of the bigger problems facing the Fighter is MAD. What if the Fighter got +1 to any physical ability score at the same time when they'd normally get a bonus to any ability score? And they are allowed to put both boosts into one score.

So the default array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8 could eventually become, say...19, 16, 15, 12, 12, 8.

Making a fighter that is better at hitting things per hit when that is what fighters are already good at is not trying hard. Fixing the myriad problems they do have would be trying hard.

[Rogue Shadows]

Making a fighter that is better at hitting things per hit when that is what fighters are already good at is not trying hard. Fixing the myriad problems they do have would be trying hard.

It's not just for dealing damage...a Fighter could dump all 10 boosts into Constitution. Woo +100 HP by level 20!

But that would be a waste.

Actually ability boosts do help in other ways than pure damage, though...it allows a Fighter to use their level-up ability boosts to increase any score they want while still being able to use their Fighter ability boosts to increase their physical stats.

Consider a Fighter that starts with, say...
Str 14
Dex 10
Con 15
Int 12
Wis 13
Cha 8

It allows them to end up with...
Str 18
Dex 10
Con 18
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 8

Increase skill points, qualification for the Combat Expertise feat, bonus to Will saves, increase to various WIS-related skills (like Listen and Spot, which should be added to Fighter's class skills)...without compromising their ability to increase their physical stats.

Just a thought.

[Lans]

A solution to that might have the packages 'unlock' at certain levels - Dodge when you take it, Mobility for free at 4th, and Spring Attack for free at 6th, for instance. Thus, if you only take a 2-level fighter dip, you never 'unlock' the latter two feats.

I was thinking something like Take TWF at 1st get GTWF and Improved at 6th and 11th when you meet the prereqs. Take it at 12 get GTWF at 13th and the next one at 14th.

Is 3 the right number? We could do the 3 TWF feats, Double Hit, Two Weapon Rend, and the move and use both weapons one.

[blackmage]

I've toyed with Fighter tweaks, re-writes, and such as well. Reading this inspired me to make another effort, and in the end I think the 'feat package' route is the best way to go to still have a Fighter (as in class-totally-about-combat-feats). The things I've tried doing either ended up being feat packages anyway, or were a different class entirely instead of a tweak/rewrite.

I'll advocate the groups as FMArthur was constructing them, with some level requirements thrown in as The Glyphstone suggested. Level requirements would more or less keep feats from being gotten too 'early', or a tiny dip getting a huge number of feats for the investment. I'll try making some to add to the list, because you need something like 3 times as many choices as slots to really get the full feeling of variety and customizability going.

Now, what about the odd levels? The Pathfinder class features are...an OK thing, they only feel good because they're better than nothing, but they could fill a couple levels, and there's also a lot of ACFs in PF.

[Ardantis]

I was loathe to log on today, because I was worried about what I'd find on this post, but... wow, this is actually becoming... constructive.

Blackmage, please post any more packages that you develop for the Alternate Build. I agree with FMArthur that they should consist of appox. two low-powered and one better feat, unless all three are from a restricted combat mode (like archery or mounted combat.) Also, no tactical feats. They are too good and offer too many abilities to be part of packages.

Lans, I like the TWF chain of feats as well, and think they would make a good package. At first I thought "level one? no way! not even rangers get it at level one!" but then I remembered that in this build, the packages replace the bonus feats, so it makes sense that you can take this package and get TWF at lvl 1.

I'm wondering if different packages should unlock the feats at a different progression. And, what if you don't qualify for the feats later in the package (like ITWF?)

Rogue Shadows, stat boosts are unusually powerful. While it is a fairly elegant solution to the challenge that fighters lack flexibility, a fighter who pumps Charisma isn't exactly in the spirit of the class, I think. Flesh out the idea more, make your case to me that stat boots are what a Fighter should have.

What the class NEEDS, really, are POWERFUL class abilities at levels 10-20, five of them in fact, including a capstone. Move and Full Attack makes sense to me at level 9, and is something that defines a fighter. However, at higher levels opponents get VERY powerful.

Here's one I like, adapted straight from the "Ascendent" feat chain that has been posted in these forums:

Move of Opportunity: At level 15, a fighter threatens an area equal to his speed plus his reach. Once per turn, when an opponent incurs an attack of opportunity, the fighter may, as an immediate action, move to a space in which his weapon threatens the opponent before making his attack of opportunity. After this ability has been used for the turn, the fighter threatens his normal area. The fighter incurs any attacks of opportunity his movement would normally incur during this move, unless he only moves five feet.

However, I NEED MORE. This is what I need! High level class abilities for my Alternate Fighter Build!

[Greenish]

Lans, I like the TWF chain of feats as well, and think they would make a good package. At first I thought "level one? no way! not even rangers get it at level one!" but then I remembered that in this build, the packages replace the bonus feats, so it makes sense that you can take this package and get TWF at lvl 1.

I'm wondering if different packages should unlock the feats at a different progression. And, what if you don't qualify for the feats later in the package (like ITWF?)Well, I personally think the whole TWF-ITWF-GTWF chain should be just one feat (for everyone), giving you iteratives with the off-hand as you gain them in main hand. I also think it shouldn't require more than 13 Dex, to be in line with Combat Expertise, Power Attack and the like, but that's neither here nor there.

[Edit]:
Move of Opportunity: At level 15, a fighter threatens an area equal to his speed plus his reach. Once per turn, when an opponent incurs an attack of opportunity, the fighter may, as an immediate action, move to a space in which his weapon threatens the opponent before making his attack of opportunity. After this ability has been used for the turn, the fighter threatens his normal area. The fighter incurs any attacks of opportunity his movement would normally incur during this move, unless he only moves five feet.Om nom nom Mage Slayer.

(That "once per turn" is both tautological [since you only get one Immediate Action per round] and wrong [since Immediate actions take place outside your turn]. Just pointing that out in the interest of clarity.)

[The Glyphstone]

Hm...let's see if I can invent a suitably crazy capstone:

Total War: A 20th-level fighter is no longer a mere mortal, but a living embodiment of war, conflict, and all things related to violence. Once per day, he can enter a state of total war, gaining the following benefits for 1 minute, or until he chooses to end the effect:
-Type changes to Outsider (Native).
-Can make any amount of AoO's per round without penalty, following the normal rules for provoking AoO.
-May take an AoO against any enemy who makes a melee or ranged attack within his threatened area.
-Gains a 50% miss chance against all attacks and targeted spells, and the benefits of Improved Evasion and Mettle.
-Can fight unhindered at or below -10 hit points. Failing a save against a death effect still reduces his hit points to -10, but he cannot die by any means until the Total War effect ends. Effects that immobilize or incapacitate him without causing death function as normal.

[Rogue Shadows]

Rogue Shadows, stat boosts are unusually powerful. While it is a fairly elegant solution to the challenge that fighters lack flexibility, a fighter who pumps Charisma isn't exactly in the spirit of the class, I think. Flesh out the idea more, make your case to me that stat boots are what a Fighter should have.

Mmn...true...I still like the idea, though. Regardless, the Fighter class-granted stat boosts only work towards physical scores; boosts to Charisma would be from normal level-granted stat boosts.

Hmm...

- Mettle (a la Evasion for Fortitude)?

- A variant Fighter I made could use his Fortitude save in the place of his Reflex or his Will a number of times per day equal to one-half his Fighter level, starting at 8th level. This doubled as an incentive to take many levels of Fighter. Not much of one; it obviously needs to be coupled with something else.

- DEFINITELY should get some ability that lets them ignore hardness. Not for sundering swords, but for sundering walls.

[Fitz10019]

- Give them Improved Unarmed Strike for free. They're proficient with a lot. Who says they don't know how to punch, too?
- Any feat they take as a Fighter feat that usually requires one to select a certain weapon (Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, etc.) applies to all weapons used.
- Gain proficiency with all exotic weapons somewhere around level 8 or so.


I agree with these, because I think a fighter should be versatile, not specialized, when it comes to weapon selection.

[Ardantis]

Greenish~

Thank you for correcting my rules grammar regarding Move of Opportunity. I was unaware of the limit on immediate actions. Is there a way to increase the number of immediate actions? And what is an AoO, anyways? Is it outside the action structure of the turn?

Also, I agree about the TWF chain. These "packages" are a way to address this and make groups of related feats available to the fighter for the cost of one fighter bonus feat.

Glyphstone~

Thank you for being the first to suggest a "capstone" ability. I especially like the Miss Chance, something which will be effective against all enemies.

The problems I have with Total War are that:

1) Since the NUMBER of AoOs against a single enemy is still capped at 1, the AoO ability is completely underwhelming against big baddies.

2) Compare this to the Barbarian capstone, Mighty Rage. While Mighty Rage adds damage, to-hit, and temporary HP, Total War gives mostly defensive or reactive bonuses. I don't know if it reflects the spirit of what a fighter is all about.

3) At 20th level, wizards and sorcerers can Gate in Solars. Something to think about.

Rogue Shadows~

Mettle is a great class skill, at low levels, and really fits a Fighter well. Hexblades get it at, what, level 4? Pretty low. Great idea, not past level 10 though.

A fighter who can substitute a good save for a bad one a few times a day is AWESOME. I think this is something they NEED, the way rogues need Slippery Mind. Totally perfect as a higher-level fighter ability.

Ignoring hardness is one way to go about it. Dungeon Crasher just gave flat bonuses to damage against inanimate objects- ignoring hardness would also apply to constructs, and is probably a higher-level ability.

Fitz~

I agree. Each of those concepts will be worked into the build in some way.

[Keld Denar]

An AoO is a non-action. It explicitly does not require any type of action to perform, mearly that its conditions are satisfied.

Also, there is no limit on AoOs per foe, only on AoOs per action that provokes. If a foe leaves your threatened square, casts a spell, and attacks you unarmed, all in the same round, you'd get 3 AoOs against that foe from 3 different actions that provoke (assuming you had the ability to take more than one AoO in a round). I dunno where you came up with that rule, but I assure you, it doesn't exist.

[Draz74]

It seems like, arguments aside, this thread is gradually winding its way towards work I already did (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11258161&postcount=26).

[Greenish]

Is there a way to increase the number of immediate actions?No. There's a ToB stance that allows using a single counter without using up your immediate action, but there is no way in the entire official 3.5 to gain more than one immediate action per round (other than gain more turns, I think).


Also, I agree about the TWF chain. These "packages" are a way to address this and make groups of related feats available to the fighter for the cost of one fighter bonus feat.I meant that TWF should be that way for everyone, not just fighters, but that's more of a general issue than fighter one.

[Flickerdart]

Hm...let's see if I can invent a suitably crazy capstone:

Total War: A 20th-level fighter is no longer a mere mortal, but a living embodiment of war, conflict, and all things related to violence. Once per day, he can enter a state of total war, gaining the following benefits for 1 minute, or until he chooses to end the effect:
-Type changes to Outsider (Native).
-Can make any amount of AoO's per round without penalty, following the normal rules for provoking AoO.
-May take an AoO against any enemy who makes a melee or ranged attack within his threatened area.
-Gains a 50% miss chance against all attacks and targeted spells, and the benefits of Improved Evasion and Mettle.
-Can fight unhindered at or below -10 hit points. Failing a save against a death effect still reduces his hit points to -10, but he cannot die by any means until the Total War effect ends. Effects that immobilize or incapacitate him without causing death function as normal.
At -10, his nonlethal damage exceeds his current hit points and he falls unconscious, even if not dead. You may want to make an exception for this, unless that was the intent.

[The Glyphstone]

At -10, his nonlethal damage exceeds his current hit points and he falls unconscious, even if not dead. You may want to make an exception for this, unless that was the intent.

Well, that was the point about 'fighting unhindered', but you're right, it's not entirely clear. What would be the easiest patch?

[blackmage]

Rogue Shadows: I really like substituting Fort save for other saves. Con mod times per day, or 1/2 class level? You could include Mettle, but if you do explicitly say whether it applies to, say, a Reflex save that you change into a Fort save.

Draz74: Quite interesting! I particularly like Stalwart Heart, Guardian's Stance and Veteran's Technique. Veteran's Grit I'm not as sure about, it might be TOO powerful. Does it make him immune to exhaustion, or only exhaustion caused by a spell or other effect? It is a neat concept though.

I don't really like Supreme Slayer though, it turns the Fighter into a Save-or-Die (and Suck even if you Save), giving one out every round. Seems like an assassin-type ability.

Ardantis:

3) At 20th level, wizards and sorcerers can Gate in Solars. Something to think about.

I disagree. I don't like this comparison, as its a justification to put any amount of power into a class. If you want to try and make a Tier 1 Fighter, okay, but I don't think this thread has been about that. The suggestions here are more like Tier 4 or Tier 3, where there's enough customization and power for the Fighter to be a valid choice among other Tier 3-4 classes.


Now, some contributions of my own.

-It looks like the new class table would have 'packages' on even levels, and pre-set features on odd levels. This means that the fighter doesn't get plain bonus feats anymore, he has to pick a package

-With the number of suggestions we're now getting, it might be prudent to take evaluate each one individually, figure out what level it would be appropriate at, and declare it an ACF for that level. So you hit level 5, you can choose between all the level 5 class feature options.

-I like giving Imp Unarmed Strike at level 1. It's basically a proficiency, it doesn't improve your damage any, just keeps you from being completely weaponless.

-How about Packages that have advantages other than feats? For example a package that gives you the feat Weapon Finesse, but also lets you use Dex instead of Str on damage rolls too?

-Class Feature idea: Ignore Wards. When making an attack roll against a target with any active magical effects, roll a dispel check (1d20+class level) against each such effect. For every dispel check that succeeds, ignore that magical effect for the current attack. [My wording here is atrocious, the concept is that your attacks have a chance to ignore magical protection. Nothing is dispelled, and you won't succeed every time on the dispel, but it means a bunch of Abjurations don't make you useless.] Probably level 13+

-Class Feature idea: Combat Flexibility. A number of times per day equal to your ___(Int? Con?) modifier, you may use a swift action to swap your highest-level combat feat for another combat feat. This gets tricky since the standard bonus feats are gone, maybe it has to grant a feat, and that's the feat you can change? Level 5 probably good for this, since what level you get it determines how good of feats you can select with it.

-Class Feature idea: Shrug it off, basically the same mechanic as this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187348) post. You have a pool of temporary HP equal to your class level, and every turn this pool is refilled. Not sure how interesting or powerful this is in practice.

[Rogue Shadows]

Rogue Shadows: I really like substituting Fort save for other saves. Con mod times per day, or 1/2 class level? You could include Mettle, but if you do explicitly say whether it applies to, say, a Reflex save that you change into a Fort save.

1/2 Fighter level for the Fort-save-in-place thing (I called it Pigheaded). A goal should be to give people an incentive to play a high-level Fighter, and an ability based off of Fighter level is one step towards that.

Mettle should be applied to a Pigheaded save. This would be both because of the way Pigheaded is worded (make a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex or Will) and because it is, again, an excuse to grab many levels of Fighter.