Too good for level 1-2 spells? *Long*

[Elboxo]

I was bored last night and continued on my venture to find interesting combinations of or uses of low level spells, which i find the most fun, on some of the spells in which i was hazy of the exact uses of it i looked up the long description in the d20srd and lo and behold, in no particular order:

Animate Rope
Now this may seem a small threat, a rope can coil around or trip someone, yeah so what? Well, first my friend, with a spoken word ( A free action ) The rope will coil or loop etc around what it is near, Or thrown at, this is made even better by the fact that it is a DC 23 strength check to burst ( Avg str of +4 or 5 on a barbarian/fighter and they need to roll an 18 or 19 to get out, decimates casters) , a DC 20 escape artist check to escape and a DC 15 concentration check for a caster to use a spell, RAI for me means the caster can't use spells with somatic components. One other point about this spell i'd like to talk about; the range. 100 ft +, you tie a rope to an arrow, succeed on a touch attack ( If your DM allows ) and waboom one MOVE action later you got a tied up enemy who is now entangled Edits:
Thanks tyckspoon

Chill Touch
At first i thought this spell lasted until a number of touches were used up or until the duration ran out. Duration: Instantaneous.... So at one touch/level does this mean in that one casting ( 1 standard action ) you touch your level number of times? Someone please tell me i'm wrong otherwise this is an uncapped way to do 1d6 damage + 1 str damage to one enemy or a group if you are nearby. " disrupts the life force of living creatures " note the plural on creatures? How could one touch spell of instantaneous duration hit multiple targets? With this combined with Enlarge person or Invisibility you'd become a melee destroyer around level 5, sneak around invisible, touch an enemy tank/fighter 5 times ( more at a higher level ), he takes 5d6 damage and potentially 5 strength damage, combine with ray of exhaustion for best necromancy results. "You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level." Someone tell me i've got it wrong. This would be an excellent counter for undead in later games, each touch they have to make a save or become panicked. Hello skeleton fighter. Goodbye skeleton fighter :smallcool:
EDIT: as stated below by tyckspoon Rules in PHB1 p141 holding the charge states 'You can continue to make touch
attacks round after round.' No 5 attacks on one guy in a round :C still not bad combined with spectral hand and being at the back of your meatshields

Protection from Evil
We all know it gives bonuses to saves and AC against evil, but what's that halfway down? "... the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature" and "This second effect works regardless of alignment." As long as the spell lasts ( 1 min/level ) you are virtually immune to 'ongoing' compulsion/enchantment no matter what level or alignment the enemy be.
Thirdly; "the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures." and "attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature." as long as you don't attack them they can't hit you, unless they are good aligned, in which case you shoulda used protection from good :) now minutes/level protection from summon creatures and all mind control as well as +2 boost to AC and saves is AMAZING, mid level when players are hitting more save/suck enchanters this will time and time again be a bargain for the group that everyone will love you for, even if you only cast it once on the party healer. :tongue:

Magic Mouth
This is permanent. The mouth activates when something happens. Now what happens when you cast it on the back of your head and under the circumstance that someone walk towards you, staring and draw a weapon it tells you 'Sneaksy hobbitses' you know there's a dude behind you with a knife and you act. Yes it can be fooled and yes it does need line of sight and the trigger is specific. But this still seems to me like it is a magic protection against a good deal of the backstabbers you encounter until your DM gets tricky. It does not have stats or skills but is triggered by an event, this leads me to INTERPRET ( RAI alert ) that it magically detects the trigger and then activates, so it does not need to make a spot check, it says creatures invisible or silently moving are undetectable. This spell is working from day 1 and lasts forever unless you want it to or it gets dispelled. It tells you when
a person is behind you with a knife, even in a crowd, even in your sleep. Unless said person has disguised the knife or is invisible or attacking in invisible darkness. I also dare to say it doesn't state that the trigger can't be someone thinking to harm you, but i think that's a little too far. :smallconfused:

Summon Swarm
4 squares. Any time an enemy is in one of the squares at the beginning of their turn they take damage, the squares only have to be touching, and it can get through any gap only one of the vermin type would be able to enter. Now let's take bat swarms; 13 hp.. ooh not so good. 40 foot fly speed, nice, 16 AC uh oh. immunity to weapon damage wow. unless the enemy is wielding fire or an AOE spell, the bats are invulnerable, and most likely faster than him, the bats ALSO nauseate enemies on a failed DC 11 fort save, as well as making him bleed 1 point of damage every round until he gets a cure spell or heal check of 10, which he can't make with bats all over his ass. And if that isn't enough the bats blindsense means they will home in on those pesky rogues and invisible wizards in the corner or in the air that you suspect may be there ( Within 20 ft of them ) as long as they don't attack you first ;) as for casters that magically outrun the bats, they have to make a concentration check every round as they bleed ( i may be wrong here ) This is just a destroyer of casters and rogues alike.
:smalleek:

Spectral hand
Because >100 ft range on those 3d6 + 3 strength drain chill touch attacks on a guy way in the distance is awesome at level 3. Also can be combined with Shocking Grasp or Ghoul Touch for fun effects at this level, vampiric touch later on. Might be nice for divine casters with anyspell prepared with this in it then a cure spell or other touch to help/destroy the locals.

Pyrotechnics
400 ft range. Blinds people on a failed save in 120 feet of it, definitely blinds those within 20ft if you choose smoke as well as -4 on str and dex on a failed save. With this a single burning arrow and a spell can blind all the enemy archers in a battle or make the catapults impossible to use. Have a good archer fire the arrow at a target and then cast away and waboom you have an enemy army down on its range.

Ropetrick
You can tell i like rope by now. Ropetrick provides 8 hours rest where-ever you are. In a campaign i was in last year, our party was stuck in a cave full of thrallherd mindflayers and every day we'd climb back into the rope and rest after the mischief was managed. On those long going battles where all hope is lost and you are stuck in a room with enemies banging on the door, this will keep you going until dawn. Also no size restriction, just 8 creatures, this is how last year we had a party of 5 and 3 mounts in there, 1 party member was huge, two mounts were dinosaurs and the other was a unicorn. We survived a week, game time, before we scratched the mindflayers down enough that we could destroy the elder brain.

On an unrelated note, could someone tell me if the feat snowcasting, which says it requires a ball of ice or snow to use, could still be used if you had eschew materials and no ice? If not, how could one create ice to last all day at minimum cost, it says conjuration spells work to create snow for the feat. The feat adds the cold descripter to all spells you apply it to.


Final question: In UA there is an ACF for wizards called Energy affinity, it is mostly for evokers, but anyone can take it, they lose their familiar for it; you choose an element and cast it at +1 CL. Now if i apply Snow-casting along with energy substitution ( on whichever element you choose, i'd go with sonic or acid ) you get a free +1 CL on all spells yes?

[tyckspoon]

Animate Rope:
You're reading extra functions into it. The rope does not render anybody helpless- if you get it to successfully tie somebody, they're just Entangled. It means you move at half speed, can't run or charge, take a -2 to attacks and a -4 to Dex, and the only restriction on spellcasters is the Concentration check. It seems you're imagining that the rope will neatly hogtie somebody and assuming extra game functions to match that- what it does is more like form a messy tangle around their legs and arms. You can work around it, but it's hampering. Edit: Also, the spell specifies that giving a command to the rope is a Move action.

Chill Touch:
The act of casting the spell allows you to make one touch. The remaining uses of the spell are subject to the Holding The Charge rules. You can use the Chill Touch as if it were a weapon, making further touches/round limited by your BAB (alternately, if you can get people to willingly agree to be touched and gather them into a group, you can touch up to 6 as a full-round action.)

[Elboxo]

Thanks for the prompt reply!
I was imagining the coil would tie them significantly more than a -2 to attacks xD What if they were tied and then tripped? I think that could make it shinier.
:redface:
Thanks for referencing Holding the Charge, i'd heard of it before but had not looked it up, thanks for clearing that up, though it has brought something else to light for me; "...the act of casting a
spell does provoke an attack of opportunity, so you may want to cast
the spell and then move to the target instead of vice versa." this implies that you stand back, cast and then move to touch them, with a touch attack, right? But the casting time of chilltouch is 1 standard action so making the attack is separate? Or part of the spell? Otherwise you'd have to touch the round after casting chill touch. Does holding the charge also mean then that you could prepare a cure light wounds at the start of the day, run into combat hours later and after a while, heal a teammate with a touch, and move out of combat as long as you didn't touch anyone before or cast a spell? Interesting.

[tyckspoon]

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Casting a touch spell gives you an extra attack, specifically to be used for delivering that touch.

And yes, you could theoretically pre-cast a touch spell quite some time before, but it's actually rather hard to avoid accidentally discharging it on something because of
If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges
Imagine going through a day holding one hand above your head or out to the side and watching out to make sure it doesn't accidentally brush against anything, like a doorframe or a food dish or somebody's arm or..- that's what trying to hold a charge long-term is like. You can do it for a couple of minutes easily enough, but you're likely to screw up if you do it in the morning and try to hold it for hours ('course, you can just *say* you're doing it anyway and since you presumably have agency over your character you do it, but your DM might decide to pay more attention to when you do things that might need both hands.)

[KillianHawkeye]

Magic Mouth has a duration of "Permanent until discharged." That means it lasts forever or until it is triggered, then it is gone. Unless you make it really permanent with the Permanency spell. Although putting a Magic Mouth on a monster seems like a cool way to screw with the party. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

Protection from Evil: While the features it grants are pretty cool, they are mostly situational. It's great when going up against enchantment specialists or summoners, but you won't always be fighting them, and the rest of the time it's just a +2 to AC and Saves (which is still decent).

As for Rope Trick, it can be dispelled if the bad guys have a reason to suspect it and do a little divination to find the entrance, so it's not a perfect hideaway.

[NNescio]

Alter Self, the Swiss Army Knife spell, and Glitterdust, a fairly strong battlefield control that lasts for a long time in your career. Also Grease, the anti-Golem spell.

Out of core we have Power Word: Pain, which really should be a 3rd level spell, and Stun Ray, a first-level spell from Dragon Magazine, which is so broken that SpC saw fit to bump it up to a 7th-level spell when they reprinted the whole thing.

Note that Pyrotechnics isn't that useful since most battles don't happen at that range. Unless you use the Bullseye Lantern trick, that is.

[Elboxo]

Ahahaha of course.
Another question then, if you cast spectral hand ( minutes/level ) and cast chill touch for the spectral hand to use, does the hand count as holding the charge? Or is it you? Holding the Charge says casting another spell removes the previous spell, spectral hand rules state "... attacking with the hand counts normally as an attack" since the spectral hand lasts minutes and is holding your spell, couldn't you theoretically cast spectral hand/chill touch at the start of a battle and from there decide to move and attack with the hand or move and cast something else, throughout each round? Or are [B]you[B] still considered holding the spell? I'm imagining spectral hand like a spellstoring weapon. Or does it just come down to the DM...?

[HunterOfJello]

Final question: In UA there is an ACF for wizards called Energy affinity, it is mostly for evokers, but anyone can take it, they lose their familiar for it; you choose an element and cast it at +1 CL. Now if i apply Snow-casting along with energy substitution ( on whichever element you choose, i'd go with sonic or acid ) you get a free +1 CL on all spells yes?

The ACF requires the character to be an Evoker Wizard, but would work that way for Evocation spells only.

If you combine Energy Affinity and Snowcasting then you'd be able to spend a move action to give any evocation spell +1 CL. If you added in the Energy Subsitution feat to Energy Affinity and Snowcasting then that would make it a +2 CL.

This would, however, cost you at least 2 feats with the requirement of being an Evoker wizard, the sacrifice of your familiar, having 13 Con, and already having a different metamagic feat. This setup would be great for a person who wants to play a specialized evoker, but not too amazing otherwise because of the cost.

[Divide by Zero]

Holding the Charge says casting another spell removes the previous spell

That's only if you're holding a charge, and then cast another spell while you're still holding the first one. Spectral hand isn't a held charge, it's an ongoing effect, and you can have as many of those at a time as you want.

[Elboxo]

Alter Self, the Swiss Army Knife spell, and Glitterdust, a fairly strong battlefield control that lasts for a long time in your career. Also Grease, the anti-Golem spell.

Out of core we have Power Word: Pain, which really should be a 3rd level spell, and Stun Ray, a first-level spell from Dragon Magazine, which is so broken that SpC saw fit to bump it up to a 7th-level spell when they reprinted the whole thing.

Note that Pyrotechnics isn't that useful since most battles don't happen at that range. Unless you use the Bullseye Lantern trick, that is.

Grease is amazing at all times, power-word pain and there was another one... it fatigues them, then exhausts them.... dastardly trick. As for Pyrotechnics you can use it on enemies entering a gate on the other side of a castle, people shooting down on you from a wall, have a long-burning flame stuck in the ground and wait for them to move over it etc.


Magic Mouth has a duration of "Permanent until discharged." That means it lasts forever or until it is triggered, then it is gone. Unless you make it really permanent with the Permanency spell. Although putting a Magic Mouth on a monster seems like a cool way to screw with the party. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

Protection from Evil: While the features it grants are pretty cool, they are mostly situational. It's great when going up against enchantment specialists or summoners, but you won't always be fighting them, and the rest of the time it's just a +2 to AC and Saves (which is still decent).

As for Rope Trick, it can be dispelled if the bad guys have a reason to suspect it and do a little divination to find the entrance, so it's not a perfect hideaway. Ah so the use of it does discharge it then? Yes i was thinking of casting it on a cow and making it say " OH GOD WHY? WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT?" To be triggered in the even of the cow's death. Protection from evil i see being great when you know you are fighting a good/bad/evil/chaotic/lawful boss or group. Such as hunting down a necromancer or defending yourself from clerics and paladins sent to kill you because of your zombie babies.
As for dispelling ropetrick... It's another dimension and you can pull the rope up. I guess it can be detected by arcane sight or something, but you'd have to be looking round for it.


The ACF requires the character to be an Evoker Wizard, but would work that way for Evocation spells only.

If you combine Energy Affinity and Snowcasting then you'd be able to spend a move action to give any evocation spell +1 CL. If you added in the Energy Subsitution feat to Energy Affinity and Snowcasting then that would make it a +2 CL.

This would, however, cost you at least 2 feats with the requirement of being an Evoker wizard, the sacrifice of your familiar, having 13 Con, and already having a different metamagic feat. This setup would be great for a person who wants to play a specialized evoker, but not too amazing otherwise because of the cost.

Wait when did energy substitution raise the ECL on a spell cast? It just changes the energy type to another set type for no change other than that doesn't it? Thanks for clearing it up about it being Evoker only, i guess you could drop conjuration *cringe*


That's only if you're holding a charge, and then cast another spell while you're still holding the first one. Spectral hand isn't a held charge, it's an ongoing effect, and you can have as many of those at a time as you want.
I think i need to elaborate, i meant for example if i have the spectral hand and have cast Chill Touch, does the hand carry the Chill touch? or do i have to resist from casting spells until all the charges ( from chill touch are used up) unless i want to end the Chill Touch spell. I.e. Can i have spectral hand hold my Chill Touch Charges while i run around buffing teammates?

[ericgrau]

Animate Rope: "You can give one command each round as a move action, as if directing an active spell." Not a free action. Entangled isn't that bad of a condition, and you can cut the rope with an attack anyway. Meanwhile the caster spent 2 turns vs. that 1 action to get free. First to cast the spell, another to throw the rope, and a move to make it tie and knot. With a 10 foot range increment he can easily miss even on a touch attack.

Protection from Evil: Good when useful but it's situational. It's a great scroll spell or potion. Or sometimes as your pre-combat buff at low levels, especially if you're playing a non-caster and you can only afford level 1 potions for the buffing round. If you even get a buffing round, but hey if you don't you can save the potion for next time; unlike anyone who wasted a spell slot.

Magic Mouth: D&D doesn't have facing. Otherwise good for stealthy foes. Unless you also see the foe you still get sneak attacked. It merely helps you flee or etc.

Spectral Hand: You still spend an attack to touch with the hand, so you can't also cast a spell in the same round. 1d6 + 1 strength per round is eh.

Pyrotechnics, Rope Trick: Good but with drawbacks; already covered at great length in other threads.

[Elboxo]

Animate Rope: "You can give one command each round as a move action, as if directing an active spell." Not a free action. Entangled isn't that bad of a condition, and you can cut the rope with an attack anyway. Meanwhile the caster spent 2 turns vs. that 1 action to get free. First to cast the spell, another to throw the rope, and a move to make it tie and knot. With a 10 foot range increment he can easily miss even on a touch attack.

Protection from Evil: Good when useful but it's situational. It's a great scroll spell or potion. Or sometimes as your pre-combat buff at low levels.

Magic Mouth: D&D doesn't have facing. Otherwise good for stealthy foes. Unless you also see the foe you still get sneak attacked. It merely helps you flee or etc.

Spectral Hand: You still spend an attack to touch with the hand, so you can't also cast a spell in the same round.

Pyrotechnics, Rope Trick: Good but with drawbacks; already covered at great length in other threads.

Thanks, i completely forgot about potions xD great idea! About facing, i bought UA a couple days ago and it has rules for facing in there which are pretty cool and i might ask my DM if we could try them out some time, I really need to clear up on spectral hand:
Round 1: Cast spectral hand
Round 2: Cast Chill Touch on Spectral hand
Round 3: Move back, Spectral Hand touches enemy orc barbarian who is smacking my fighter
Round 4: Move towards my fighter, cast Bull's Strength
Round 5: Move back, Spectral hand delivers another Chill Touch

Does that work? Cause that'd be a nice way to get away and disperse attackers after you mirror image or something. The magic mouth is, i assume aware of the trigger event as it happens, so you could specify and say any person watching you and drawing a weapon within 60 feet, but if it IS discharged on saying it once then it may not be worth it, paying a wizard to permanently cast it on you on the other hand..... :smallwink:

[ericgrau]

Ya spectral hand is made for casting touch spells from a safe distance. It eats an action though so I'd usually do it when I have a pre-combat round instead. Otherwise I'd prefer non-touch spells. OTOH if you focus on touch spells there are some awesome touch spells like irresistable dance that may be worth it even if you're forced to waste round 1 on spectral hand.

I was just saying that chill touch isn't often the greatest option unless you're out of spell slots or unless you're a natural attack / wizard gish/gestalt.

I'll add a level 0 to the list. Carry a 12.5 gp scroll of flare in case you face a major drow foe. You lose your turn casting it, but so does he, hence "major". At high levels get a scroll of daylight in case of multiple drow.

@V empowered ray of enfeeblement is my favorite. No save massive debuff. Always a great first action against every dragon or beefy BBEG.

[Eldariel]

My favorite low level core spells:
- Prestidigitation
- Detect Magic
- Grease
- Sleep
- Color Spray
- Enlarge Person
- Ray of Enfeeblement
- Silent Image
- Alter Self
- Glitterdust
- Web
- Pyrotechnics
- Minor Image

There's a swiss army knife of spells amazing for their level (Color Spray and Sleep promptly drop off after the HD limits begin to commonly be exceeded, of course). You get to cause all kinds of nastiness with saves, a variety of potent buffs on allies and ways to deal with almost anything in the game in one way or another, with some applied creativity (most open-ended spells are obviously Prestidigitation, Silent Image, Alter Self & Minor Image but Pyrotechnics & Grease are also quite versatile).

[Divide by Zero]

I think i need to elaborate, i meant for example if i have the spectral hand and have cast Chill Touch, does the hand carry the Chill touch? or do i have to resist from casting spells until all the charges ( from chill touch are used up) unless i want to end the Chill Touch spell. I.e. Can i have spectral hand hold my Chill Touch Charges while i run around buffing teammates?

I may be missing something, but I think no. Everything in the spectral hand description refers only to it delivering the spell; nothing says it can hold it.

[Elboxo]

Ya spectral hand is made for casting touch spells from a safe distance. It eats an action though so I'd usually do it when I have a pre-combat round instead. Otherwise I'd prefer non-touch spells. OTOH if you focus on touch spells there are some awesome touch spells like irresistable dance that may be worth it even if you're forced to waste round 1 on spectral hand.

I was just saying that chill touch isn't often the greatest option unless you're out of spell slots or unless you're a natural attack / wizard gish/gestalt.

I'll add a level 0 to the list. Carry a 12.5 gp scroll of flare in case you face a major drow foe. You lose your turn casting it, but so does he, hence "major". At high levels get a scroll of daylight in case of multiple drow.

@V empowered ray of enfeeblement is my favorite. No save massive debuff. Always a great first action against every dragon or beefy BBEG.

Totally agree with the precombat buff idea, and as for flare, it has a fort save bro and SR, it's a level 0 spell, so a high power drow would not worry at all. Ray of enfeeblement is <3, i made a duskblade for a few days here, started at like level 3 and i had colour spray and RoE against cr 1-2 guards in a prison we were breaking out of. Wiped the floor with them.


My favorite low level core spells:
- Prestidigitation
- Detect Magic
- Grease
- Sleep
- Color Spray
- Enlarge Person
- Ray of Enfeeblement
- Silent Image
- Alter Self
- Glitterdust
- Web
- Pyrotechnics
- Minor Image

There's a swiss army knife of spells amazing for their level (Color Spray and Sleep promptly drop off after the HD limits begin to commonly be exceeded, of course). You get to cause all kinds of nastiness with saves, a variety of potent buffs on allies and ways to deal with almost anything in the game in one way or another, with some applied creativity (most open-ended spells are obviously Prestidigitation, Silent Image, Alter Self & Minor Image but Pyrotechnics & Grease are also quite versatile).

Aye, those are all excellent choices, top candidate spells are the ones that have the most uses and are usefull throughout the game, such as some buffs like enlarge person; need to bust down a locked door? No Rogue or 'knock' prepared? Get your meatshield to stick his sword between the door and the wall then enlarge him and pop the door off the wall. Or acid splash the lock, you know, whatever works.


I may be missing something, but I think no. Everything in the spectral hand description refers only to it delivering the spell; nothing says it can hold it.

Okay thanks! So i'd be casting that early, buffing teammates or setting up battlefield and then sit back with a beer and let chill touch do the work

Thanks for the replies guys, keep posting them spells! I found a nasty touch spell in BoVD - 'Touch of Juiblex' corrupt 3rd level spell, you immediately take 1d6 str damage, which comes back at the same time as the spell is instantaneous, your enemy however, either passes a save/ SR or becomes green slime in 4 rounds and you can only cure/dispel it in those 4 rounds.

[Everest]

Ooh, nice. I hadn't noticed that one. I did, however, find a 4th-level spell in BoVD that tears the target's hand from their wrist for 6d6 damage and makes it attack them as if it were a wight's hand. That amused me greatly. And only regeneration can restore it.

[Elboxo]

Ooh, nice. I hadn't noticed that one. I did, however, find a 4th-level spell in BoVD that tears the target's hand from their wrist for 6d6 damage and makes it attack them as if it were a wight's hand. That amused me greatly. And only regeneration can restore it.

Oh yeah i saw that one a minute ago too, man this book has some cool stuff in it, love the Profession ( Executioner ) xD it's a skill so i guess ghouls touch or animate rope someone and trip them then tie them down and axe them, instant kill if you make a DC 18 profession (executioner) check. It'd be a great surprise for the DM, find BBEG, knock him out, fly out with him, tie him down and publicly execute him the next day xD

[Elboxo]

Oh i just noticed something that could be an awesome combo, the BoVD says with the Dark Speech you can create a hivemind, i don't know if you need the vermin there first or not, i was thinking maybe you could summon a swarm first, but it says none of the animals may have an HD of more than 1, the swarm has a 'pool' of Hit dice, the lowest of the summonable swarms HD is 2. So i wonder if you have to count the swarm's pool as an individual HD or if you can use a summon to use the hivemind on, or does anyone know any other way to collect 50+ vermin? xD i wanted summon swarm to work because 'A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not.' and with 10, 000 creatures... "The creatures’ Intelligence score increases by +1
for every additional 20 individuals (beyond the first 50) in
the hivemind, up to an Intelligence of 10 for a hivemind of
150 creatures. Beyond the 150-creature threshold, Intelligence
increases by +1 for every 50"
and even scarier yet "For every point of Intelligence bonus possessed
by the hivemind, award each individual creature one
feat and 1 skill point per Hit Die." BUT WORSE STILL "The increase to Intelligence gained for every creature in
the hivemind over 50 also applies to Charisma...If the hivemind attains a Charisma score of 18 or higher,
it gains the ability to cast spells as a sorcerer. For every point
of Charisma over 17, the hivemind has one level of sorcerer.
A hivemind of 1,000 rats has a Charisma of 22, so it would
cast spells as a 5th-level sorcerer" charisma at 150 vermin - 5. Charisma at 1000 vermin, 22. Charisma at 10,000 fine creatures, 202. It also has that much intelligence and that many feats. So if summon swarm DOES work for dark speech, in one spell and one feat you can cast as a level 185 sorcerer. At level 6 of any caster you can get this feat if you have the right skill points. There's no limit to how many hive minds you can have or how big they can be. Only thing stopping you controlling the world is that summon swarm lasts concentration rounds LOL But still, if the HD pool does not count as one vermin; in one round you can summon swarm, use a free action ( I didn't see anywhere that talking in the dark speech wasn't a free action, correct me if i'm wrong ) make them a hivemind with intel and charisma of 202, with 202 feats 202 skill points, effectively has still spell and obeys you for one command 'as if from the suggestion spell' so my level 185 sorcerer, KILL EVERYTHING. But i'm probably wrong

[Urpriest]

It's been done. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5943.0)

[Worira]

First, the self-damage from Touch of Juiblex does not go away when the duration expires, nor does the damage from any other corrupt spell. Secondly, while low-level for a save-or-die spell, it also requires a touch attack and allows both a fortitude save and spell resistance, and allows them to operate unhindered for 4 rounds anyway. And as a minor nitpick, one would hope that it's too good for a level 1-2 spell, what with being a level 3 spell.

Also, why would you even think that using animated rope on someone and then tripping would make them an eligible target for execution? It makes them prone and entangled, neither of which is helpless. And while execution rules are kind of broken (for one thing, they let you execute someone who's pinned in a grapple but not helpless), they don't have anything to do with spells.

And yes, hivemind rules are utterly broken. This is a thing people know.

[NecroRick]

How it works:

If you cast Chill Touch, hold the charge and then cast Spectral Hand you lose Chill Touch.


If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.


If you cast Spectral Hand and then cast Chill touch this is fine, you get to keep both spells.

But if you cast anything else (including True Strike or an immediate spell) while holding the charge the touch spell goes away.

Okay, so let's say in round 1 you cast Spectral Hand.
In round 2 you cast Chill Touch. Can you attack with it straight away? Yes.



In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.


Can you attack with it straight away... using the Spectral Hand? Yes you can.



For as long as the spell lasts, any touch range spell of 4th level or lower that you cast can be delivered by the spectral hand. The spell gives you a +2 bonus on your melee touch attack roll, and attacking with the hand counts normally as an attack.


If you interpret the normal description of Chill Touch to mean that after attacking with it in one round you can keep attacking with it in subsequent rounds ....
... then you can keep delivering it with either the Spectral Hand or with a normal melee touch attack using your own hand.

The Spectral Hand does not hold the charge. You do not cast the spell "into" the Spectral Hand. The Spectral Hand simply gives you an additional option on how you will deliver any touch spell that you are casting or holding.

[Psyren]

Hiveminds are broken; thankfully, they're also 3.0, so you have to try and convince your DM why letting you become an epic sorcerer with a single spell should be allowed. (I mean, you'd have to convince him of that ANYWAY, but a little more than usual.)

[Elboxo]

Thanks NecroRick, sorry i didn't realise about hivepocalypse being done
As for ability drain, aaah i read that wrong xD but thanks for the flaming, i said after they'd been roped to "trip them then tie them down and axe " i was integrating my previous statement into this, still love animate rope.

Another spell: Bestow Wound
Another goodie for spectral hand, there is a fort save and SR, but it's a level one spell, at a touch you damage an enemy up to 1 point of damage per caster level, that you have taken, you deal the damage to them and you recover that much hp, or your level in hp or up to full hp.

[Elboxo]

Here's a combo that's actually nasty for a level 1 spell for the BBEG's you see out there:
Fell Weaken - Libris Mortis:
Prerequisites: none
Benefit: You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that
any living creature that is dealt damage also takes a –4 penalty
to Strength for 1 minute. Strength penalties from multiple
spells enhanced by the Fell Weakening feat do not stack. A fell
weakening spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the
spell’s actual level.

Combine with cones, Chill Touch.... etc each Chill touch that they failed a save on would mean -5 strength. Spectral hand + Fell Weakened Chill Touch at level 3 = 3d6 + potential 15 strength damage. I'm noting here how it says Strength penalties from multiple spell[B]s[B] This is in one casting, but if the DM gets pedantic you can spread the love across other enemies with spectral hand

[HunterOfJello]

Wait when did energy substitution raise the ECL on a spell cast? It just changes the energy type to another set type for no change other than that doesn't it? Thanks for clearing it up about it being Evoker only, i guess you could drop conjuration *cringe*

Energy Substitution doesn't, but if you apply Energy Subsitution to a non-cold spell like Fireball then it gains the Cold subtype. If you look at the text for Snowcasting it says:


If you add a handful of snow or ice as an additional material component to a spell when you cast it and that spell already has the cold descriptor, you increase the effective level of the spell being cast by +1.

So the Fireball is turned into a Fireball[Cold] by Energy Subsitution, the Evoker ACF gives a cold spell CL +1 and since we have snowcasting on a spell that already has the cold descriptor it gets another +1 for a total of CL +2.

[Divide by Zero]

Spell level and caster level aren't the same thing, though.

[HunterOfJello]

ohp, i didn't notice the wording on that properly at all. That's actually a cooler effect instead.

[Elboxo]

Energy Substitution doesn't, but if you apply Energy Subsitution to a non-cold spell like Fireball then it gains the Cold subtype. If you look at the text for Snowcasting it says:



So the Fireball is turned into a Fireball[Cold] by Energy Subsitution, the Evoker ACF gives a cold spell CL +1 and since we have snowcasting on a spell that already has the cold descriptor it gets another +1 for a total of CL +2.

Right thanks, I derped there, still jetlagged, and yes the +2 CL is great for those damage by CL spells like fireball, for a one off game I helped my friend build a fire gnome that got +4 CL on fire spells, so scorching ray was firing all 3 rays by level 7 and fireballs did an extra 4d6 for no cost.
Back to the topic: am currently looking for feats that improve the DC of my
spells, like heighten/corrupt spell so that the necrotic cyst ( level 2 ) will have higher chances of success. I plan on making a domain wizard who uses his owl to deliver cysts and then scry on or kill them. Gotta love those necro spells

[Eldariel]

Here's a combo that's actually nasty for a level 1 spell for the BBEG's you see out there:
Fell Weaken - Libris Mortis:
Prerequisites: none
Benefit: You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that
any living creature that is dealt damage also takes a –4 penalty
to Strength for 1 minute. Strength penalties from multiple
spells enhanced by the Fell Weakening feat do not stack. A fell
weakening spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the
spell’s actual level.

Combine with cones, Chill Touch.... etc each Chill touch that they failed a save on would mean -5 strength. Spectral hand + Fell Weakened Chill Touch at level 3 = 3d6 + potential 15 strength damage. I'm noting here how it says Strength penalties from multiple spell[B]s[B] This is in one casting, but if the DM gets pedantic you can spread the love across other enemies with spectral hand

Heh. For a true low level killer, you should look at certain other Metamagic from Libris Mortis: Fell Drain. It's +2, but with Easy Metamagic, Practical Metamagic or Metamagic School Focus you can drop it to +1. Which means you can apply it to a cantrip. Human or Strongheart Halfling gets the prerequisite feats; Strongheart Halfling just so happens to be a prime candidate for Raying too, with easy +5ish Touch Attacks thanks to Small Size and racial Dex Bonus. And of course, you can True Strike.

So you use Fell Drain Acid Splash or Ray of Frost and drain them for 1 level, which kills any ECL 1 character and royally screws over anyone low level. With further application of Flaws you can get Precocious Apprentice onto a Focused Specialist: Evoker to get level 2 slots for Fell Drain Magic Missile; auto-hit, auto-kill. With caster level pumping (e.g. Spellgifted Trait and Spell Thematics-feat) you can get two Missiles to OHKO two guys each round (or if they have two HD, two guys in two rounds; you'll have 3 slots total so 3 HD guys is the max you can autokill on this level).

[Worira]

Thanks NecroRick, sorry i didn't realise about hivepocalypse being done
As for ability drain, aaah i read that wrong xD but thanks for the flaming, i said after they'd been roped to "trip them then tie them down and axe " i was integrating my previous statement into this, still love animate rope.

Another spell: Bestow Wound
Another goodie for spectral hand, there is a fort save and SR, but it's a level one spell, at a touch you damage an enemy up to 1 point of damage per caster level, that you have taken, you deal the damage to them and you recover that much hp, or your level in hp or up to full hp.

Yeah that flaming that- oh wait, that's not a thing that happened. And tying someone up takes 10 rounds, so I'm not clear on why you think this is an overpowered combat tactic.

And really, Bestow Wounds? A spell requiring a touch attack, allowing SR, with fort negates? And if it hits, bypasses SR, and they fail the save, does 1 point of damage per caster level and insignificant healing? And that relies on you having taken damage to do anything at all? Really? And a 10 gp material component, to add insult to injury.