Boci
2011-07-31, 07:30 PM
This year I ran a gestalt game in a homebrew setting, and I plan to re-start it in autumn. Problem is? I’m aiming for tier 3-4, and one of the players is a swordmage/eldritch knight (both homebrew). Let’s focus on the former for now, because I don’t have much problem with the latter.
Since I’m aiming for tier 3, the Swordsage should compare to a warblade. So let’s see how they fair up.
The swordmage class is available here: http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Swordmage
Also note: I love the swordmage class and really want to play one. I am not criticizing it, I am just trying to explain why I feel it is too powerful for my game.
Advantages of the warblade:
d12 vs. d8.
Doesn’t need to worry about spell resistance.
Gets to add intelligence to more things (reflex saves, crit confirm, flanking damage).
Swordmage advantages:
Better bonus feats.
Less MAD (Cha to hit and AC)
Gets to add Cha to AC, which is more important than the warblade’s “battle _____” abilities.
Slightly better skills choice (i.e. knowledge (arcane) and spell craft)
Same:
BAB, number of skill points per level, number of good and bad saves.
So far I’d say this is a tie, with possibly the swordmage emerging on top, depending on how many opponents have SR in the campaign.
So let’s look at what really matters: Manoeuvres vs. incantations. Now, incantations should be weaker in effect, because they have 3 important advantages over manoeuvres:
1. You can full attack with them
2. You know all of them (And thus no preqs limitation like the warblade)
3. You can ready more
The only draw backs they have are:
1. Inferior recovery mechanics (but they have with more anyway)
2. No stances
The second one is significant, but I don’t still think incantations are superior as a general concept so far.
So are they slightly weaker? No, not that I can tell. Granted, they do less damage, which gives the warblade a bonus at lower levels, but this disappears as soon as the swordmage gains his second attack, and even before then the swordmages has some advantages over the martial initiator.
Bear in mind, since my players are expected to optimize, I am only looking at the strongest incantations, and comparing them to the strongest manoeuvres.
Level 1:
Blink Plate – All the advantages of full plate, none of the disadvantages. Fair enough at lower levels, but after level 4 the opportunity cost is pretty negligible.
Grappling hook – Ranged grapple check, ignore size modifiers, option to automatically pull target into same square as you (so if you want you can grapple at close range (25ft + 5ft/2 levels), and versatility of having a grappling hook. If as a warblade I was offered this as a manoeuvre, I definitely consider it. Swordmages do not have to, they get automatically.
Light Bow – Attack with a bow, add state damage to it. So far fine, but dazed on a failed will save, dazzled on successful one? That already better than a 5th level warblade manoeuvre since theirs is a fort save, limited to melee range and gets no extra benefit. The light affect could is also a useful bonus, and its rarely going to be a big enough of a drawback.
Manoeuvres:
Well sapphire nightmare blade will deal more damage, but it has no utility value and it’s a melee attack that requires you to roll twice.
Level 2:
I didn’t really have much problem with the incantations at this level. Effectively at will teleport with the Blink Dagger is a bit iffy, so I would probably rule that you cannot attack an empty square or something, but apart from that it’s all good.
Manoeuvres:
Stone hammer will do way more damage than any incantation and emerald razor will be more accurate. Manoeuvres may even be more powerful at this level, but incantations a re better debuffers. Warblades now have wall of blades, but it has both advantages and disadvantages when compared to blink plate and its 1 level higher, so it should be better. Concentration saves do stand out as something the swordmage cannot replicate, so this tilts the advantage to the warblade.
Level 3:
Radiance: Brilliant energy greatsword. Powerful, but we all know brilliant energy is overpriced. Still, I’m not sure the fire damage was necessary. At 1d6/2 CL its not amazing but its not bad either, and it has a 15ft radius. And it only affects enemies, it offers no save, and it ignores resistance.
Sever Gravity: As written, this is a swift action to fly for 1 round/character level. Even with its duration it’s duration cut to 1 round (as I ruled it), it remains a potent ability.
Manoeuvres:
Iron heart surge is another unique affect, but not even concentration check damage will be able to beat radiance, especially with the latter’s area affect. I’d say swordmage wins for mobility and higher offensive power vs. an incredibly powerful but resource (1 standard action) consuming defensive ability.
Level 4:
Dragoon leap: Swordmages answer to tiger claw. Automatic crit instead of +4d6 damage. Note however this is a standard action so no second attack.
Star Of Courage: Attack, debuff enemies on successful save, buff allies and dispel attempt at darkness. And next comes your second attack.
Tempest Attribution: Your next attack. You do not attack, but you can black and counter your enemies attack.
Manoeuvres: As long as the swordmage doesn’t use dragoon leap, his damage will probably be lower, but tempest attribution will make up for this as its a defensive power that can also even out the gap in damage the round before. The warblade can find solace with lightning recover, but the swordmage can attack a second time instead.
Level 5:
Dancing guard: At level nine, swift action to gain an attempt to block 2 attacks. Next level, this becomes 4 attacks (its 2 per 5 levels), and if you need the offensive boost you can sacrifice these block attempts for an attack.
Dominate Whip: Dominate an hit opponent on a failed will save.
Earth Rod: Reflex save or be helpless for 1 round/6 levels, entangled for 1 round on a successful save.
Thrice Betraying dagger: As an attack action, teleport adjacent to 3 different target and attack them with a bane dagger that automatically matches their type, then teleport back to your original position. You only get 2 attacks with a full attack, this is an attack action. Also a chance for 4d6 SA damage, a lot of things can go wrong with this.
Winter’s Breath: Reflex save or be sucked into a huge air elemental’s whirlwind ability. This will most likely happen even if you miss the target, since it works like a splash weapon.
This is how far the game went, and ironically this is the level where the warblade crawls up into a ball and cries.
Final conclusion:
At lower levels the two seem balanced. The warblade is tougher and his manoeuvres are better, but the swordmage can ready more incantations and knows all of them.
This swiftly changes. Cha to AC as a deflection bonus makes up for the loss of hitpoints, and the swordmage cann full attack and their incantations start to have better affects, and last for longer than 1 round, something the warblade’s do not. Incantations are better before you consider the advantages they had at the start, and this is something a stance cannot make up for.
So, some questions:
1. Am I missing something that evens out the two melee classes?
2. Assuming I am not, should I ask the player to reroll, or give them an option to continue playing their character with a handy cap, like some racial hitdie?
Since I’m aiming for tier 3, the Swordsage should compare to a warblade. So let’s see how they fair up.
The swordmage class is available here: http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Swordmage
Also note: I love the swordmage class and really want to play one. I am not criticizing it, I am just trying to explain why I feel it is too powerful for my game.
Advantages of the warblade:
d12 vs. d8.
Doesn’t need to worry about spell resistance.
Gets to add intelligence to more things (reflex saves, crit confirm, flanking damage).
Swordmage advantages:
Better bonus feats.
Less MAD (Cha to hit and AC)
Gets to add Cha to AC, which is more important than the warblade’s “battle _____” abilities.
Slightly better skills choice (i.e. knowledge (arcane) and spell craft)
Same:
BAB, number of skill points per level, number of good and bad saves.
So far I’d say this is a tie, with possibly the swordmage emerging on top, depending on how many opponents have SR in the campaign.
So let’s look at what really matters: Manoeuvres vs. incantations. Now, incantations should be weaker in effect, because they have 3 important advantages over manoeuvres:
1. You can full attack with them
2. You know all of them (And thus no preqs limitation like the warblade)
3. You can ready more
The only draw backs they have are:
1. Inferior recovery mechanics (but they have with more anyway)
2. No stances
The second one is significant, but I don’t still think incantations are superior as a general concept so far.
So are they slightly weaker? No, not that I can tell. Granted, they do less damage, which gives the warblade a bonus at lower levels, but this disappears as soon as the swordmage gains his second attack, and even before then the swordmages has some advantages over the martial initiator.
Bear in mind, since my players are expected to optimize, I am only looking at the strongest incantations, and comparing them to the strongest manoeuvres.
Level 1:
Blink Plate – All the advantages of full plate, none of the disadvantages. Fair enough at lower levels, but after level 4 the opportunity cost is pretty negligible.
Grappling hook – Ranged grapple check, ignore size modifiers, option to automatically pull target into same square as you (so if you want you can grapple at close range (25ft + 5ft/2 levels), and versatility of having a grappling hook. If as a warblade I was offered this as a manoeuvre, I definitely consider it. Swordmages do not have to, they get automatically.
Light Bow – Attack with a bow, add state damage to it. So far fine, but dazed on a failed will save, dazzled on successful one? That already better than a 5th level warblade manoeuvre since theirs is a fort save, limited to melee range and gets no extra benefit. The light affect could is also a useful bonus, and its rarely going to be a big enough of a drawback.
Manoeuvres:
Well sapphire nightmare blade will deal more damage, but it has no utility value and it’s a melee attack that requires you to roll twice.
Level 2:
I didn’t really have much problem with the incantations at this level. Effectively at will teleport with the Blink Dagger is a bit iffy, so I would probably rule that you cannot attack an empty square or something, but apart from that it’s all good.
Manoeuvres:
Stone hammer will do way more damage than any incantation and emerald razor will be more accurate. Manoeuvres may even be more powerful at this level, but incantations a re better debuffers. Warblades now have wall of blades, but it has both advantages and disadvantages when compared to blink plate and its 1 level higher, so it should be better. Concentration saves do stand out as something the swordmage cannot replicate, so this tilts the advantage to the warblade.
Level 3:
Radiance: Brilliant energy greatsword. Powerful, but we all know brilliant energy is overpriced. Still, I’m not sure the fire damage was necessary. At 1d6/2 CL its not amazing but its not bad either, and it has a 15ft radius. And it only affects enemies, it offers no save, and it ignores resistance.
Sever Gravity: As written, this is a swift action to fly for 1 round/character level. Even with its duration it’s duration cut to 1 round (as I ruled it), it remains a potent ability.
Manoeuvres:
Iron heart surge is another unique affect, but not even concentration check damage will be able to beat radiance, especially with the latter’s area affect. I’d say swordmage wins for mobility and higher offensive power vs. an incredibly powerful but resource (1 standard action) consuming defensive ability.
Level 4:
Dragoon leap: Swordmages answer to tiger claw. Automatic crit instead of +4d6 damage. Note however this is a standard action so no second attack.
Star Of Courage: Attack, debuff enemies on successful save, buff allies and dispel attempt at darkness. And next comes your second attack.
Tempest Attribution: Your next attack. You do not attack, but you can black and counter your enemies attack.
Manoeuvres: As long as the swordmage doesn’t use dragoon leap, his damage will probably be lower, but tempest attribution will make up for this as its a defensive power that can also even out the gap in damage the round before. The warblade can find solace with lightning recover, but the swordmage can attack a second time instead.
Level 5:
Dancing guard: At level nine, swift action to gain an attempt to block 2 attacks. Next level, this becomes 4 attacks (its 2 per 5 levels), and if you need the offensive boost you can sacrifice these block attempts for an attack.
Dominate Whip: Dominate an hit opponent on a failed will save.
Earth Rod: Reflex save or be helpless for 1 round/6 levels, entangled for 1 round on a successful save.
Thrice Betraying dagger: As an attack action, teleport adjacent to 3 different target and attack them with a bane dagger that automatically matches their type, then teleport back to your original position. You only get 2 attacks with a full attack, this is an attack action. Also a chance for 4d6 SA damage, a lot of things can go wrong with this.
Winter’s Breath: Reflex save or be sucked into a huge air elemental’s whirlwind ability. This will most likely happen even if you miss the target, since it works like a splash weapon.
This is how far the game went, and ironically this is the level where the warblade crawls up into a ball and cries.
Final conclusion:
At lower levels the two seem balanced. The warblade is tougher and his manoeuvres are better, but the swordmage can ready more incantations and knows all of them.
This swiftly changes. Cha to AC as a deflection bonus makes up for the loss of hitpoints, and the swordmage cann full attack and their incantations start to have better affects, and last for longer than 1 round, something the warblade’s do not. Incantations are better before you consider the advantages they had at the start, and this is something a stance cannot make up for.
So, some questions:
1. Am I missing something that evens out the two melee classes?
2. Assuming I am not, should I ask the player to reroll, or give them an option to continue playing their character with a handy cap, like some racial hitdie?