Owlbears: Egg-layers or Live Birthers?

[Coidzor]

Or are they... MARSUPIALS!?

Just came up in the game session I'm in.

Thoughts?

[Temotei]

It's possible that they'd be unable to produce offspring. I...kind of hope that's the case, while at the same time hoping it's not.

[Pokonic]

I always assumed they where egg layers like, say, griffens or manticores.

[Coidzor]

It's possible that they'd be unable to produce offspring. I...kind of hope that's the case, while at the same time hoping it's not.

We're in that first Age of Worms adventure where there's an owlbear mama or something that had her offspring stolen to become zomblebees or something by the local necromancer at Diamond Lake, I believe.

So I believe that standardly they can reproduce, hence why they're non-unique monsters...

Unless they were like, the equivalent of a master's thesis for transmutation specialist wizards...

[Tvtyrant]

We're in that first Age of Worms adventure where there's an owlbear mama or something that had her offspring stolen to become zomblebees or something by the local necromancer at Diamond Lake, I believe.

So I believe that standardly they can reproduce, hence why they're non-unique monsters...

Unless they were like, the equivalent of a master's thesis for transmutation specialist wizards...

I thought that was the original fluff of the half-creatures. They combined things to learn how to manipulate bodies without harming them.

[Zaydos]

I'd go for egg-layers making them similar to echidnas and platypi.

[Coidzor]

I thought that was the original fluff of the half-creatures. They combined things to learn how to manipulate bodies without harming them.

As far as replenishing their population in the wild, I meant. :smalltongue:

[Drglenn]

Budding :smalltongue:

[Jude_H]

They birth eggcubs. Obviously.

[BlueInc]

Pathfinder SRD specifically says they have young (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/owlbear).

No word on the original question. You might say that because it doesn't mention eggs, that's a point for live birth /shrug.

[Okizruin]

I'd say that would be up to the GM.

[Ravens_cry]

They are mostly bear in appearance, with the exception of the claws and head. I would say they are placental or perhaps marsupial. I can so imagine a owlbear with a 'roo style pouch with a little owlbear poking out, looking fluffy and adorable.

[MesiDoomstalker]

In my group we decided that the result would be something like this:


25% Male Owlbear via mamalian birth
25% of Female Owlbear via mamalian birth
12.5% Male Brown Bear via mamalian birth
12.5% Female Brown Bear via mamalian birth
12.5% Male Owl via aviary birth
12.5% Female Owl via aviary birth


I was going to make the appropriate punnet square we made (we have a geneologist in the group) but wasn't sure how to format it.

[Divide by Zero]

Binary fission?

[OracleofWuffing]

Well, in comparison, Raptorans (who are sort of Eaglehumans) are egg-layers.

That said, a wizard did it.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, in comparison, Raptorans (who are sort of Eaglehumans) are egg-layers.

That said, a wizard did it.
I know they are a canonical example of that trope, but I personally like to think of them as a separate creature altogether that humans call owlbears, because humans tend to create common names based off of superficial appearance and not relation.
Like how there are animals commonly called civet cats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civet_cat) that are neither civets nor cats.

[Ardantis]

I figured that since they were half-owl, half-bear originally created magically rather than genetically, and their reproductive half seems to be on the bear half, they probably mate and have live birth like a bear does. That being said, Mommy Owlbear better be careful of Baby's hooked beak during the delivery...

[CockroachTeaParty]

During a live birth, a beak would be a dangerous thing; it could easily injure the mother or lead to other complications. I imagine hatching them from an egg avian-style would be safer.

[Kosjsjach]

The Arms and Equipment Guide has prices for mounts and pets and such, and lists a price for a owlbear young (3'000gp, if you were wondering); elsewhere, it lists a price for other creatures' eggs. This suggests owlbear young do not come from eggs.

[MesiDoomstalker]

During a live birth, a beak would be a dangerous thing; it could easily injure the mother or lead to other complications. I imagine hatching them from an egg avian-style would be safer.

I would think for a mamalian birth to be possible, either the beak would be not fully developed or born in such a way that the beak would not be a problem. Like the head tucked in towards the baby's body.

[a_humble_lich]

I would think for a mamalian birth to be possible, either the beak would be not fully developed or born in such a way that the beak would not be a problem. Like the head tucked in towards the baby's body.

I can only assume horned animals work the same. I hope a unicorn colt is born without a fully developed horn. :smallsmile:

[HalfDragonCube]

The babies claw their way out of the mother and devour her alive.

Dang, now I want to make an impregnation spell in homebrew.

[BobVosh]

I'm going with mammal birth, as I don't want to imagine a bear trying to lay an egg.

[OracleofWuffing]

I can only assume horned animals work the same. I hope a unicorn colt is born without a fully developed horn. :smallsmile:

Speaking of horselike births, I've been wondering where the the fetus of a centaur is stored prior to birth. Is it in the human half and it sort of blasts through the horse-parts in labor, or is it in the horse half and the human parts are mostly uninvolved in the process?

...Or maybe the human part gets the human half of the baby, and the horse gets the baby's horsey parts, and they both get sqished together as they come out?

[Crossblade]

I would think for a mamalian birth to be possible, either the beak would be not fully developed or born in such a way that the beak would not be a problem. Like the head tucked in towards the baby's body.

Tucked in head could risk hurting the baby, soft beak could misformed too easily.

Also, beak usually means egg tooth. An egg tooth is a sharp pointed tip used by offspring to bust through eggs from the inside.

Alternatively, there are also mammels that lay eggs, like the Platypus or Echidna; so it's not just birds, fish and reptiles that lay eggs.

Another thing to address is feeding habits of young... typically creatures that give live birth feed young with milk. This too could be dangerous for the mother with a hard beak clamping down to try to suck milk (also noting that beaks can't suck well)

So, I'd vote that Owlbears lay eggs, and given their carnivorous nature, parents may also regurgitate food for newborns.


I'm going with mammal birth, as I don't want to imagine a bear trying to lay an egg.
You'd rather imagine a bear giving live birth to something with an owl head?


Speaking of horselike births, I've been wondering where the the fetus of a centaur is stored prior to birth.
In the area where the genitals are located. :p

[BobVosh]

You'd rather imagine a bear giving live birth to something with an owl head?

Yes, but not by much.

[Otacon17]

I was always taught than when a mommy owlbear and a daddy owlbear love each other very much, they ask the storkbear to bring them a baby...

[Drelua]

Speaking of horselike births, I've been wondering where the the fetus of a centaur is stored prior to birth. Is it in the human half and it sort of blasts through the horse-parts in labor, or is it in the horse half and the human parts are mostly uninvolved in the process?

...Or maybe the human part gets the human half of the baby, and the horse gets the baby's horsey parts, and they both get sqished together as they come out?

I actually used to live on a horse breeding farm, and you'd be surprised how big a foal is at birth. They're born with their legs 3/4 the length that they will be when the horse is fully grown, according to a book I read. There's no way that a centaur fetus could fit in the human body, so it would have to be in the horse body. This brings up some other interesting questions, such as, what does the human part have where an actual human's organs would be? Their lungs would have to be in the horse part to be able to hold enough air for something that size, meaning the throat would heve to guy all th way through its human torso. Maybe they have both human and horse organs? 2 hearts, 2 livers, 4 kidneys, etc. Or maybe the human part holds a large stomach, mostly? I should have taken biology last year...

[NNescio]

In the area where the genitals are located. :p
On a related note, I wonder how their spines are supposed to look like. Do they have an extra pelvis? Or can their vertebrae turn a sharp 90 degrees due to some fiendish joint they have?

[HalfDragonCube]

While we're on the subject, how would mermaids work?

[NNescio]

While we're on the subject, how would mermaids work?

Half-Dragon Gelatinous Cubes as well, for that matter.

[OracleofWuffing]

While we're on the subject, how would mermaids work?
Good news, everyone! Futurama explained this one. :smalltongue:

[Ravens_cry]

At least no one is asking how magnets work.:smallannoyed:

[Divide by Zero]

At least no one is asking how magnets work.:smallannoyed:

You can't explain that! :smalltongue:

[Rappy]

I'd imagine that owlbears aren't quite typical bird or typical mammal, instead following the monotreme style of reproduction and youngster rearing.

[OracleofWuffing]

You can't explain that! :smalltongue:
Magnemite + Ditto = Egg. There ya go, where's my prize? :smallbiggrin:

[Cerlis]

i believe that comment about a wizard did it didnt say that they where created through experiment, but that that was a common theory.

Further if you are going to have magics to combine two species, then it would be simple to make them fertile, this isnt some cloning experiment, its magic. Even if the source i'm thinking of hints more greatly to the experiment theory than i remember thats the ORIGIN of the species. no reason they couldnt reproduce.

[Keld Denar]

LOVE ME!
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lftjmz7pS71qfa70do1_400.jpg

[OracleofWuffing]

Further if you are going to have magics to combine two species, then it would be simple to make them fertile, this isnt some cloning experiment, its magic. Even if the source i'm thinking of hints more greatly to the experiment theory than i remember thats the ORIGIN of the species. no reason they couldnt reproduce.
Well, on top of all that, there's always the possibility of the Owlbear taking Wizard levels to make more Owlbears.

[Coidzor]

LOVE ME!
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lftjmz7pS71qfa70do1_400.jpg

Is that supposed to be one of the cubs? Chicks? chibs? chubs? cucks?

[CapnVan]

From Dragon #214, pp. 87-92, the Ecology of the Owlbear by Johnathan M. Richards:

"Yeah, and their bottoms are all bear, but they still lay eggs." Etc.

[BobVosh]

LOVE ME!
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lftjmz7pS71qfa70do1_400.jpg

Kill it with fire!

[Psyren]

Eggs. Why is this even a question?

The other famous bird/mammal hybrid - namely, the one that actually exists - lays eggs.

[Coidzor]

Eggs. Why is this even a question?

The other famous bird/mammal hybrid - namely, the one that actually exists - lays eggs.

It came up in conversation while we were raiding an owlbear nest and I was all bored because my level 1 character was dropped to negatives and left unconscious with the cart, so I decided to make a topic.

[Groverfield]

Aren't there rules saying that their eggs are valuable (100g or so) in the MM for rangers that want to train up an army of the lil'buggers

[Ricky S]

I am pretty sure most of these hybrid animals would lay eggs. If not for the realism then because it seems a whole lot cleaner/neater from a writing perspective than having to worry about live birth.

Mermaids would probably reproduce the same way fish do. By laying eggs in the water and having the males fertilizing them.

[lesser_minion]

The MM only has a price listing for young -- whether that means that they don't lay eggs or that their eggs can't be sold for some reason is up to you.

If they did exist, I'd be surprised if the eggs weren't eaten as a delicacy at least somewhere.

[hamishspence]

Mermaids would probably reproduce the same way fish do. By laying eggs in the water and having the males fertilizing them.

Depends on the fish. Some (most notably, sharks) have internal fertilization.

[Cog]

During a live birth, a beak would be a dangerous thing; it could easily injure the mother or lead to other complications. I imagine hatching them from an egg avian-style would be safer.
Read up on spotted hyena birthing and then tell me that safety has anything to do with it.

[Serpentine]

Eggs. Why is this even a question?

The other famous bird/mammal hybrid - namely, the one that actually exists - lays eggs.Are you talking about monotremes? If so... Iiiiii'm just gonna assume you're being tongue-in-cheek, and thereby avoid lecturing :smalltongue:

For the side discussion:
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs15/f/2007/116/5/c/Centaur_Internal_Anatomy___M_by_sugarpeep.jpg
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs12/i/2006/278/5/8/Centaur_Skeletal_Anatomy_by_sugarpeep.jpg
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs48/f/2010/170/e/c/ece98a1b642a4d73dded88e784487612.jpg
Centaur note: ancient centaurs were sometimes depicted with horsey genitals, and sometimes with peopley genitals.

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs38/i/2008/336/8/8/Mermaid_skeleton_by_empyrean.jpg
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/047/f/b/mermaid_musculature_by_empyrean-d29fc9h.jpg
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/352/8/1/fantasy_anatomy___mermaid_by_jonnymarvel-d353w2y.jpg
Mermaid note: For me, whale-based tails make more sense than fish-based, not least because the human part of mermaids bend forward-back - as do whales - unlike fish which bend side-side, both of which requiring different tail structures.

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/293/4/5/nagah_serpentes_anatomy_1_by_zanten-d315lsc.jpg
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs4/i/2004/257/a/0/Naga_Skeletal_System_by_sugarpeep.jpg
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs6/i/2005/055/a/d/Internal_Naga_Anatomy_by_sugarpeep.jpg
"Naga" etc. note: I imagine them to have much more muscle for most of that tail, snake style, than this picture. More space for organs, and therefore bigger heart and lungs and so forth (appropriate for a creature-type historically associated with water) in the torso, but still a mostly and extremely muscular tail.

Non-mammalian hybrid creatures in general: I tend to prefer egg-laying over live-bearing (although it's fine either way, and there's both fish and reptiles that live-bear - which brings me to something I might suggest on-topic, actually...), but I consider conception to be internal, with the genitals (:smallyuk:) hidden behind a genital sheath thing (can't remember the proper term...).

How about a compromise, guys: like some real-life animals, owlbears produce eggs but they hatch still inside the parent, producing live young.

[Eldan]

I love you. And whoever did those pictures.

Tough none of them really show how the 90° angle in the spine is supposed to work.

[Serpentine]

Three hypotheses:
1. They've evolved a particular spinal joint unique to them.
2. Their backs actually curve more than they're usually depicted.
3. The spine plunges inwards at the join, so that it curves around in a bit of an S shape, allowing for a 90o appearance but not requiring such a sharp joint in the spine.

[Psyren]

Are you talking about monotremes? If so... Iiiiii'm just gonna assume you're being tongue-in-cheek, and thereby avoid lecturing :smalltongue:

Bring it, I'm always willing to learn. Can't do that through a smiley, after all.

And yes, I was referring to the platypus, which has a bird-like bill.

[Serpentine]

Awrioighty then, you asked for it!
If anything, monotremes are a "reptile/mammal hybrid" - evidence suggests that they split off from the mammals waaaaaaaay back when the difference between mammals and reptiles was still blurry. They're not related to birds any more than your cat is. And also, iirc, the platypus bill is pretty much completely unrelated to bird beaks - for one thing, theirs is soft and fleshy and detects electrical currents.

[hamishspence]

I like the notion of the "bear" bit being purely superficial.

So- the only "bear" part of it, would be the four-legged posture.

The notion of (in D&D-world) a aviform dinosaur going to a four-legged posture, and over time developing toward the owlbear look, is an interesting one.

[Psyren]

Awrioighty then, you asked for it!
If anything, monotremes are a "reptile/mammal hybrid" - evidence suggests that they split off from the mammals waaaaaaaay back when the difference between mammals and reptiles was still blurry. They're not related to birds any more than your cat is.

Aren't both reptiles and birds of saurian descent? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauropsida)

Also this (http://xkcd.com/867/)

[Eldan]

Aren't both reptiles and birds of saurian descent? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauropsida)

Also this (http://xkcd.com/867/)

Yes, but saying that Platypodes are descended from birds is like saying your brother descended from your cousin.

[Psyren]

Yes, but saying that Platypodes are descended from birds is like saying your brother descended from your cousin.

Except I'm not. Nor am I saying that Owlbears descended from birds. :smallconfused:

[Serpentine]

Or maybe more like saying your brother is descended from your cousin's grandson.

Fact is, platypuses are mammals with reptilian features - no relation to birds, except extremely tangenitally via reptiles. And no, they are not demons.*

*can't link it due to forum inappropriateness, but the "platypuses are demons" blog post thing is hilarious.

[Psyren]

Fact is, platypuses are mammals with reptilian features - no relation to birds, except extremely tangenitally via reptiles. And no, they are not demons.*


You're still missing my point though. "Duck-billed Platypuses" are so named because the bill looks like a duck bill, whether or not it is actually an avian feature. Similarly, an Owlbear is named because their facial construction looks like that of an owl.

In other words, whichever enterprising adventurer(s) coined the moniker, were unlikely to have undertaken rigorous taxonomy before doing so. A fact I'm certain has frustrated Scholars, Savants and Archivists to no end, but one which is by now so firmly rooted in the public consciousness that it cannot be extricated (rather like the "brontosaurus.")

As for the spawning young question: whichever demented wizard spawned owlbears - and by "demented wizard" I mean "game designer" - a platypus is the closest real-world analogue he could have possibly made, with all the trappings thereof - including laying eggs.

Unless you can think of something closer, that is.

[Serpentine]

First of all, they're not called "duck-billed platypuses". They're called platypuses. Secondly, you said
The other famous bird/mammal hybrid - namely, the one that actually exists - lays eggs.They are not, in any way shape or form, a "bird/mammal hybrid".
You should've just agreed with my assumption of tongue-in-cheekness :smallwink:

[Psyren]

First of all, they're not called "duck-billed platypuses". They're called platypuses.

The name "platypus" is often prefixed with the adjective "duck-billed" to form duck-billed platypus, despite there being only one species of platypus. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus#Taxonomy_and_etymology)


They are not, in any way shape or form, a "bird/mammal hybrid".

Scientifically, no. In appearance (which is sort of what counts when you have non-zoologists naming things) yes, actually.


You should've just agreed with my assumption of tongue-in-cheekness :smallwink:

And where's the fun in that? Bring it, I say. Still waiting for your real-world animal that is a closer analogue. :smallamused:

[Serpentine]

It is "often" called the duck-billed platypus like koalas are "often" called koala bears. It is, as far as I'm concerned, hallmark of the ignorant and cutesy.

I never said there had to be a "real-world analogue". You're the one who decided there must be. I'm okay with owlbears being related to monotremes, and with the "owl" bit being purely cosmetic. Just don't try to tell me that platypuses are "bird/mammal hybrids".

[Psyren]

It is "often" called the duck-billed platypus like koalas are "often" called koala bears. It is, as far as I'm concerned, hallmark of the ignorant and cutesy.

And again I remind you you're not dealing with zoologists here. Whether it's technically accurate or not is irrelevant.

Things get misnamed all the time. The names don't vanish from parlance simply by pointing that out. (Again I bring up the "brontosaurus" example.)


I never said there had to be a "real-world analogue". You're the one who decided there must be. I'm okay with owlbears being related to monotremes, and with the "owl" bit being purely cosmetic. Just don't try to tell me that platypuses are "bird/mammal hybrids".

Appearance-wise, they are. For all we know, Owlbears are no different (i.e. their resemblance to being an actual fusion of an owl and a bear is purely a coincidence.) From MM1:


Scholars have long debated the origins of the owlbear. The most common theory is that a demented wizard created the first specimen by crossing a giant owl with a bear.

Theory - meaning its origin has not been conclusively proven.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Gygax and Arneson either failed Biology or didn't care.

End of discussion. :smalltongue:

[Telonius]

Just checked some online sources (of dubious authenticity) for 2nd-ed material, and the Owlbear entry specifically mentions eggs. Could somebody with a copy of the Monstrous Manual verify this?

[Psyren]

Gygax and Arneson either failed Biology or didn't care.

End of discussion. :smalltongue:

Most importantly, they are the "demented wizards" being discussed. :smallwink:

[Eldan]

Well, mixing animals is fun, after all. I still fondly remember the Cougator or the Spidershark.

[Erloas]

Maybe they lay eggs which have done all of their incubating internally. So that once they are laid they almost instantly break out and hatch. That fixes the beak and birth canal problem, and why you can't get their eggs. Because in order to get an egg that has not yet hatched you would have to kill an owlbear that was impregnated and far enough along in development that it could be taken out without killing the egg. So its not that it can't be done, but its no easy task.

[Psyren]

Well, mixing animals is fun, after all. I still fondly remember the Cougator or the Spidershark.

Or the Duckbunny! (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm)

...wait, I don't think anyone fondly remembers that piece of... er... that strange creation :smalltongue:

[noparlpf]

First of all, the 3.5 MM's picture of an owlbear really doesn't look much like a bear. And that's not really owlish.

On-topic: Owlbears have 1d6 young at a time. Bears usually have 1d3 cubs at a time (in real life). Depending on the species, owls lay between 1d3 and 3d4 eggs in real life. 1d6 is a fair general average. I'm assuming that owlbears lay eggs like owls.

Edit:

Or the Duckbunny! (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm)

...wait, I don't think anyone fondly remembers that piece of... er... that strange creation :smalltongue:

I fondly remember all the old critters. I really need to find my uncle's old monster manuals.

[Psyren]

Bears usually have 1d3 cubs at a time (in real life).

Is that the scientific terminology? :smallbiggrin:

[noparlpf]

Is that the scientific terminology? :smallbiggrin:

Yes. Yes it is.

(Well, kind of. Wikipedia says that most bears bear one to three young at a time.)

[Psyren]

Yes. Yes it is.

(Well, kind of. Wikipedia says that most bears bear one to three young at a time.)

That specific way of saying 1-3 is still quite amusing.


most bears bear

I am dying in this thread. *wipes tears*

[noparlpf]

That specific way of saying 1-3 is still quite amusing.

I am dying in this thread. *wipes tears*

Well, it is a D&D forum...

As for "bears bear", I wasn't sure where else I could fit "bear" into the sentence.
On that note, I played a druid once who said "I will bring all the power of nature to bear against you!" and wildshaped into a dire bear.

[Psyren]

On that note, I played a druid once who said "I will bring all the power of nature to bear against you!" and wildshaped into a dire bear.

While riding a bear and summoning...

No, no, too easy

[noparlpf]

While riding a bear and summoning...

No, no, too easy

I didn't have any ranks in ride, and the DM had already killed off my dire bear companion. But I had my standard action left, so I should have summoned more bears. I didn't think of it at the time. This wasn't something I planned ahead of time.

[Ksheep]

Gygax and Arneson either failed Biology or didn't care.

End of discussion. :smalltongue:

Or they just based it off of a set of "dinosaur" miniatures made in Hong Kong they found, along with the Bulette, Rust Monster, and several others. Funny thing is, I used to have some of them, most notably the Bulette.

Looking around online, I found this pic of a few of them. Can't find a pic that has the Owlbear tho.
http://www.bogleech.com/junk/fakedinos.jpg

[Kenneth]

Owlbears inhabit the depths of tangled forests in temperate climes, as well as subterranean labyrinths, living in caves or hollow stumps.
Owlbears live in mated pairs; the male is slightly larger and heavier than the female. If encountered in their lair there is a 25% chance that there will be 1-6 eggs (20%) or young (80%) in addition to the adults. The offspring will be 40% to 70% grown and fight as creatures with three or four Hit Dice, depending on their growth. They have hit points based on their adjusted Hit Dice. Immature offspring inflict 1-4/1-4/2-8 points of damage with their attacks and a character has a +20% to his bend bars/lift gates roll to escape the hug of an immature owlbear.
An owlbear pair claims a territory of one or two square miles and will vigorously defend this territory against all intruders.
An owlbear's main weakness is also its greatest strength -- its ferocity. Because owlbears are so bad-tempered, they stop at nothing to kill a target. It is not difficult to trick an owlbear into hurling itself off a cliff or into a trap, provided you can find one.


that is the eaxact line formt he 2nd ed entry for owlbears under the habitat/society section. the part about young and egss I have taken the step to underline for ease of reading

[IthroZada]

I am pretty sure most of these hybrid animals would lay eggs. If not for the realism then because it seems a whole lot cleaner/neater from a writing perspective than having to worry about live birth.

Mermaids would probably reproduce the same way fish do. By laying eggs in the water and having the males fertilizing them.

It's decided, magical beasts in D&D follow Pokemon breeding rules. I'm unsure if that would make Dragons or Changelings the Ditto of D&D.




Theory - meaning its origin has not been conclusively proven.

That's not what the word theory means, you are thinking of hypothesis. A proper theory is just as solid as a Scientific Law, and is usually considered fact.

[Andorax]

CapnVan brought up an "official" response from past editions back on page 2...an article in Dragon (Ecology of the Owlbear) that claims eggs. That should be the end of the debate. Further 2E sources have since been quoted.

But for those who can't accept Dragon as official source, or consider the possibility of changes from 2E to 3E, consider this:

MM 140: "Griffon eggs are worth 3,500 gp apice on the open market"
MM 152: "Hippogriff eggs are worth 2,000 gp apice on the open market"
MM 205: "Giant owl eggs are worth 2,500 gp apice on the open market."

MM 206: "A (owlbear) lair usually has 1d6 young, fetching a price of 3,000 gp each in many civilized areas."

Logic would suggest that if a magical beast has a sales value (four listed above) and comes from an egg, the price of that egg would be listed.

Therefore, the presence of only the young-price, but no egg-price, for owlbears suggests that there are no owlbear eggs to be found...a strong argument for live birth.

[noparlpf]

It's decided, magical beasts in D&D follow Pokemon breeding rules. I'm unsure if that would make Dragons or Changelings the Ditto of D&D.

That's not what the word theory means, you are thinking of hypothesis. A proper theory is just as solid as a Scientific Law, and is usually considered fact.

Dragons are the Ditto of D&D.
I love the old couple who have no idea where the eggs come from. They're always my favorite characters.

Oh gods. This again. My grandfather (who spent 30-40 years teaching social sciences and the like at a grad-school level) lectures me about the common misuse of the word "theory" for half an hour this morning.

[Psyren]

That's not what the word theory means, you are thinking of hypothesis. A proper theory is just as solid as a Scientific Law, and is usually considered fact.

If you're going to challenge someone's statement based on what words mean, expect to deal with a dictionary quote in response.

"1. a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena.

2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact."

So yeah.

[IthroZada]

If you're going to challenge someone's statement based on what words mean, expect to deal with a dictionary quote in response.

"1. a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena.

2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact."

So yeah.

I can do the same thing:
a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"

Edit: Although I seem to be thinking more specifically of scientific theory instead of general theory. But they still need supporting evidence to be a theory. If the supporting evidence isn't true, then it isn't a theory, because it's not supported/

[Ksheep]

It all depends on whether you're talking about a "theory" or a "Theory". A "theory" is typically synonymous with a hypothesis, while a "Theory" can be seen as an accepted law of nature, which can still be improved upon but which is mostly complete and, as far as we can tell, true.

For instance, there are a multitude of climate change theories, any of which could potentially be correct, while there is only one generally accepted Theory of Gravity.

[Psyren]

^

Given that there is no Grand Unified Theorem of Owlbears, I'd say my definition wins out.

Also, source (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory)

[IthroZada]

I'll go ahead and leave it at that, there's no reason to get into an actual argument over the technical and non-technical meaning of a word, especially since I know what the intended use of the word was.

I just have a knee jerk reaction to the word theory.

[NNescio]

That specific way of saying 1-3 is still quite amusing

1d3 also carries the implication that 1, 2, and 3 are evenly distributed, which may not be the case with real-life bears.

[OracleofWuffing]

For the side discussion:
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs15/f/2007/116/5/c/Centaur_Internal_Anatomy___M_by_sugarpeep.jpg
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs12/i/2006/278/5/8/Centaur_Skeletal_Anatomy_by_sugarpeep.jpg
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs48/f/2010/170/e/c/ece98a1b642a4d73dded88e784487612.jpg
Centaur note: ancient centaurs were sometimes depicted with horsey genitals, and sometimes with peopley genitals.

Thanks for clarifying a whole lot of this... But I'm still having about as much success at finding the fetus as I had at finding Waldo. :smallfrown:

[noparlpf]

1d3 also carries the implication that 1, 2, and 3 are evenly distributed, which may not be the case with real-life bears.

Well, all Wikipedia said in the sentence I read was 1-3 cubs. In D&D, that means 1d3.


Also, having read several of the posts I missed:
1. Why do spotted hyenas have to come into the discussion? They're weird.
2. Of course you can't see the fetus. That's a male centaur. Hence the penis and testes.

[OracleofWuffing]

2. Of course you can't see the fetus. That's a male centaur. Hence the penis and testes.
If "Being Male" prevents one from giving birth, someone needs to go up to Zeus and tell him to shut up.

One, two, three, not it. :smallbiggrin:

[noparlpf]

If "Being Male" prevents one from giving birth, someone needs to go up to Zeus and tell him to shut up.

One, two, three, not it. :smallbiggrin:

Well, I've never given birth, and no other man I've ever known has either. No other male creature on Earth that I can think of can give birth either. I think that's how "male" and "female" are defined; females are the ones that bear young.

Since Zeus exists in a context outside of D&D, we probably shouldn't bring him into the discussion.

[OracleofWuffing]

Well, I've never given birth, and no other man I've ever known has either. No other male creature on Earth that I can think of can give birth either. I think that's how "male" and "female" are defined; females are the ones that bear young.
Never met a seahorse, have you? :smallwink:


Since Zeus exists in a context outside of D&D, we probably shouldn't bring him into the discussion.
Same goes for Centaurs, but apparently that's not an issue...

[noparlpf]

Never met a seahorse, have you? :smallwink:

The females produce the eggs. The males just carry them. Perhaps my use of the word "bear" is what caused the confusion.
Take spiders. Is it the female spider producing the young, or the egg sack?


Same goes for Centaurs, but apparently that's not an issue...

No, but there's no question as to whether centaurs are imaginary. Zeus comes from a real religion, regardless of whether or not it is still practiced. (I have no idea, actually.)

[NNescio]

The females produce the eggs. The males just carry them. Perhaps my use of the word "bear" is what caused the confusion.
Take spiders. Is it the female spider producing the young, or the egg sack?


Before breeding, seahorses court for several days. Scientists believe the courtship behavior synchronizes the animals' movements so that the male can receive the eggs when the female is ready to deposit them. During this time they may change color, swim side by side holding tails or grip the same strand of sea grass with their tails and wheel around in unison in what is known as a “pre-dawn dance". They eventually engage in a “true courtship dance" lasting about 8 hours, during which the male pumps water through the egg pouch on his trunk which expands and opens to display its emptiness. When the female’s eggs reach maturity, she and her mate let go of any anchors and snout-to-snout, drift upward out of the seagrass, often spiraling as they rise. The female inserts her ovipositor into the male’s brood pouch and deposits dozens to thousands of eggs. As the female releases her eggs, her body slims while his swells. Both animals then sink back into the seagrass and she swims away.

Gestation
The male releases his sperm directly into seawater where it fertilizes the eggs, which are then embedded in the pouch wall and become surrounded by a spongy tissue. The male supplies the eggs with prolactin, the same hormone responsible for milk production in pregnant mammals. The pouch provides oxygen as well as a controlled environment incubator. The eggs then hatch in the pouch where the salinity of the water is regulated; this prepares the newborns for life in the sea. Throughout gestation, which in most species requires two to four weeks, his mate visits him daily for “morning greetings”. They interact for about 6 minutes, reminiscent of courtship. The female then swims away until the next morning, and the male returns to vacuuming up food through his snout.

Looks like the female only provides the eggs. And jabs them in, of course.

[noparlpf]

Looks like the female only provides the eggs. And jabs them in, of course.

I would probably have classified the male seahorse as female if I had discovered it.
I wonder what the genetic reasons are for classifying it as male rather than female.

[OracleofWuffing]

The females produce the eggs. The males just carry them. Perhaps my use of the word "bear" is what caused the confusion.
Take spiders. Is it the female spider producing the young, or the egg sack?
The male doesn't just carry the eggs, he also gives birth to the hundreds of offspring, live, in a process of expulsion with exhausting muscle contractions. He is also responsible for feeding the eggs prolactin before they are born.

Edit: Aaaaand swordsaged.


No, but there's no question as to whether centaurs are imaginary. Zeus comes from a real religion, regardless of whether or not it is still practiced. (I have no idea, actually.)
Centaurs are part of that same religion (as well as others). Some of them are the offspring of Nephele and Ixion.

[hamishspence]

I would probably have classified the male seahorse as female if I had discovered it.
I wonder what the genetic reasons are for classifying it as male rather than female.

Probably the fact that the male produces "sperm-type" sex cells, whereas the female produces "egg-type" cells.

[noparlpf]

Centaurs are part of that same religion (as well as others). Some of them are the offspring of Nephele and Ixion.

Centaurs exist in all kinds of other mythological contexts which did not originate in that religion (or in any religion, for that matter).
Yes, Zeus exists in other contexts, but he originated in a religion.


Probably the fact that the male produces "sperm-type" sex cells, whereas the female produces "egg-type" cells.

I haven't taken Bio since I was nine. Hopefully I'll learn more about this in Bio this coming semester. I'll make sure to ask the professor about seahorses, too.

[OracleofWuffing]

Probably the fact that the male produces "sperm-type" sex cells, whereas the female produces "egg-type" cells.
And also because the girl seahorses were wearing a pink bow the first time we saw them. :smalltongue:

Edit: Come to think of it, if centaurs are an outstanding question, and seahorse genders are a wrench in the machinery... :smalleek: What about the Hippocampus!?

[noparlpf]

And also because the girl seahorses were wearing a pink bow the first time we saw them. :smalltongue:

I remember old textbooks. And not all of the ones with "Mrs. Beaver" wearing mascara, lipstick, and a bow were meant for grade schoolers. My Bio teacher back in the day brought in an old high-school textbook to show us the picture I just described.

[NNescio]

And also because the girl seahorses were wearing a pink bow the first time we saw them. :smalltongue:

Edit: Come to think of it, if centaurs are an outstanding question, and seahorse genders are a wrench in the machinery... :smalleek: What about the Hippocampus!?

By "Hippocampus" do you mean Seahorses, or the part of the brain resembling a seahorse, or Hippopotamuses?

Oh never mind. Literal seahorses. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocamp)

[noparlpf]

By "Hippocampus" do you mean Seahorses, or the part of the brain resembling a seahorse, or Hippopotamuses?

Oh never mind. Literal seahorses. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocamp)

They've never made sense to me. They should have lungs. (Assuming internal organs in the top half of a horse remain in the top half of the "Seahorse".)

[Ksheep]

By "Hippocampus" do you mean Seahorses, or the part of the brain resembling a seahorse, or Hippopotamuses?

Oh never mind. Literal seahorses. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocamp)

I think he's referring to the D&D Hippocampus, from earlier editions (I know 1st edition had them, not sure about 2nd). They were quite literally sea horses, ie. the merfolk equivalent of a horse.

EDIT: Swordsage'd

[hamishspence]

They're around in 3.0 and 3.5 as well.

In 3.0, they're in Arms & Equipment Guide.

In 3.5, they're in Stormwrack.

[OracleofWuffing]

I think he's referring to the D&D Hippocampus, from earlier editions (I know 1st edition had them, not sure about 2nd). They were quite literally sea horses, ie. the merfolk equivalent of a horse.
They're in 3.5, too. In It's Wet Outside (Stormwrack).

E: ^^^^ :smallfurious: :smalltongue: Same post time high-five.

[hamishspence]

Pics:

A&EG version:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/aeg_gallery/50033.jpg
Stormwrack version:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/storm_gallery/90756.jpg

[NNescio]

Pics:

A&EG version:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/aeg_gallery/50033.jpg
Stormwrack version:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/storm_gallery/90756.jpg

A&EG: Creepy. Those eyes bug me.

Stormwrack: Cool. In a campy sort of manner.

[Optimator]

Definitely egg-layers.

[Zaq]

Or they just based it off of a set of "dinosaur" miniatures made in Hong Kong they found, along with the Bulette, Rust Monster, and several others. Funny thing is, I used to have some of them, most notably the Bulette.

Looking around online, I found this pic of a few of them. Can't find a pic that has the Owlbear tho.
http://www.bogleech.com/junk/fakedinos.jpg

Say whaaaaaaaat? THAT'S why the rust monster has a propeller for a tail? THAT'S why the bulette looks like it does? THAT'S why . . . wow. That makes so much sense. And it's just goddamn hilarious to see how the art depicting these things has mutated over the editions. History is fun!

Where can I get a set of these things? I wouldn't even know what to plug into eBay. That's amazing.

Where did you find out about this, anyway?

[Cog]

Why do spotted hyenas have to come into the discussion? They're weird.
Somebody proposed the mother's safety as a good argument for oviparous owlbears. Spotted hyenas are a very good argument that birthing safety is not consistently selected for.

[noparlpf]

Somebody proposed the mother's safety as a good argument for oviparous owlbears. Spotted hyenas are a very good argument that birthing safety is not consistently selected for.

I suppose that may be a reasonable argument, but spotted hyenas are still weird.

[Ksheep]

Say whaaaaaaaat? THAT'S why the rust monster has a propeller for a tail? THAT'S why the bulette looks like it does? THAT'S why . . . wow. That makes so much sense. And it's just goddamn hilarious to see how the art depicting these things has mutated over the editions. History is fun!

Where can I get a set of these things? I wouldn't even know what to plug into eBay. That's amazing.

Where did you find out about this, anyway?

Well, I think I got the "dinosaur" toys about 10 years ago at a science museum gift shop. Apparently they still made them then. Not sure exactly what to search for to find them tho.

As for how I found out about it, I think I heard the backstory of it on some website a few years back. It even has a mention on the Wikipedia article about the Rust Monster. Whichever article it was had a pic of the Bulette toy next to a pic from the 1st ed monster manual, and I immediately recognized it.

Unfortunately I have no idea where those toys are now. I think my brother has them hidden away in some box somewhere.

[OracleofWuffing]

Definitely egg-layers.
Egg-layers in the sense of a platypus, or egg-layers in the sense of a seahorse? :smalltongue:

Edit: Or owls. I guess Owls lay eggs sometimes.

[Coidzor]

1. Why do spotted hyenas have to come into the discussion? They're weird.

Spotted Hyenas have messed up genitalia on the dominant females which are the ones that reproduce, such that they've got a very high chance of dying or losing their offspring, IIRC.


Thanks for clarifying a whole lot of this... But I'm still having about as much success at finding the fetus as I had at finding Waldo. :smallfrown:

Well, there's really only one part that's nearish to the genitalia and doesn't have a rib enclosure. IIRC, generally uteruses have to be free of ribs.

[noparlpf]

Spotted Hyenas have messed up genitalia on the dominant females which are the ones that reproduce, such that they've got a very high chance of dying or losing their offspring, IIRC.

That's what I meant by "weird".

[pdellorto]

The 1st edition AD&D Monster Manual, pg 77, gives values for owlbear eggs and owlbear young as treasure. This may have been changed between editions, of course.

[The Succubus]

They're around in 3.0 and 3.5 as well.

In 3.0, they're in Arms & Equipment Guide.



Wait, I can use Owlbears as weapons? So why the heck have I been using boring things like swords and crossbows when I could be wielding Owlbears?!

[noparlpf]

Wait, I can use Owlbears as weapons? So why the heck have I been using boring things like swords and crossbows when I could be wielding Owlbears?!

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Dire Badger Flail.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Wait, I can use Owlbears as weapons? So why the heck have I been using boring things like swords and crossbows when I could be wielding Owlbears?!

The post you quoted wasn't talking about Owlbears...

The book does have rules for giant floating flying (EDIT: Of course whales float, I meant flying) whales, however.

[noparlpf]

@ScionoftheVoid - You've only broken one brain? That's not very many brains.

Anyway, flying whales are fun, but flying sharks are even better. Do you remember which book those are from?

[OracleofWuffing]

Well, there's really only one part that's nearish to the genitalia and doesn't have a rib enclosure. IIRC, generally uteruses have to be free of ribs.
:smalleek: Wait, so where to babyback ribs come from!?

[pdellorto]

:smalleek: Wait, so where to babyback ribs come from!?

From owlbears.

[OracleofWuffing]

Oh.

... So by process of elimination, that would mean Owlbears lay eggs like owls, without using previous edition sources. Rats.