Hinjo, Belkar, and bonus strip lifesavings

[eras10]

So, while thinking idly about whether or not Belkar was going to be dying soon, which isn't directly what this thread is about, I was re-reading Don't Split the Party and came across a relevant Belkar-related divination. Anyway, I've been thinking about this and said divination hasn't come true yet, as far as I can remember. And it sure seems to me like it has to come true before Belkar can die. And the current situation makes it very hard to fulfill right away. These things puzzle me.

Pretty much everything else here should go under a spoiler tag.

In a Book 4 bonus strip, a cutaway panel shows Shojo being told by his diviner that Belkar will save Hinjo's life, twice.

Now, I believe the case is very strong that Belkar should be dead in a few weeks. (Oracle prophecy and remarks on how much time is left in the year).
But I can only find one time when Belkar has saved Hinjo's life.

Furthermore, Belkar and Hinjo are separated by a very large amount of space at the moment, and Hinjo seems pretty safe right now. And I don't think Hinjo and Belkar have even been in the same room since Belkar saved him the first time (or did the other one happen earlier?)

So, can anyone make a case that Belkar has saved Hinjo's life, aside from when he killed the assassin with the poision arrows during the back Azure City Fight? Because I'm pretty sure Rich threw that panel in that strip and made that diviner speak for a reason. But I'm not seeing how Hinjo is going to be threatened in the next few days, plus if Belkar is going to live to be near Hinjo again that has a lot of implications both for this spat right now and where we'll be going in the next five weeks.


So, for the nonspoilers, who can interpret something Belkar has done as saving Hinjo's life? Anyone? Other than the obvious one on the castle walls in War and Xp where he decapitates Dude I Let Out Of Prison To Fight.

[FujinAkari]

Which page is this strip on?

Edit: Found it! 665a.

The only guess I have, and I admit this is weak, is that Saigwaan is looking forward and 'seeing' both Belkar and Roy (they are both roughly in front of her), so since Roy saves Hinjo from Miko and Belks saves him from the NINJA ASSASSIN (rain?) then that is the two.

I don't think that is the answer, but it is as close as I can come.

[Gift Jeraff]

Some say the other instance was against the hobgoblins in #455 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html), but I don't buy that.

I'm personally in the "the second time will be when Belkar saves the entire world" camp. Though if that were the case, why doesn't Sangwaan say "I see him SAVING THE GODDAMN WORLD."

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Some say the other instance was against the hobgoblins in #455 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html), but I don't buy that.
Why don’t you buy it?

[The Succubus]

Why don’t you buy it?

Too expensive. I'm not made of gps, dammit!

[eras10]

Good catch, Gift. Was there a thread on this before? I did looking.

But I agree with you - that's not it. That's just the closest coincidence. They ended up running to shelter anyway from the exact same force a few minutes later.

I dunno about the whole #2 is saving the world thing. I mean, maybe. But while we have a lot of evidence that the Oracle is very slippery with his prophecies, I recall Sangwaan as being fairly straightforward. It seems like a overly technically true but not really what it sounds move in this place. I mean, it's a bonus strip prophecy in the first place, twisting it to have a hidden meaning, the hidden meaning would logically be discussed in the comic, but there'd be no plausible way to introduce it... see where I'm going with this?

But I have no idea how Belkar and Hinjo will meet up in the next five weeks either.

I think the whole thing strongly implies that wherever Belkar is dying, it's not here, in this city, in this fight.

[Magicyop]

Good point. Throwing in a prophecy that has already been fulfilled doesn't make a lot of sense. I think Belkar saved Hinjo's life once already, but has yet to save it a second time.

What does this mean for the comic? Azure Island is just off the coast of the western continent. It's really quite possible for Hinjo to make it there, and probably to meet up with the Order, in about a week, maybe a little longer.

On the other hand, assuming the desert business is resolved, the Order could also make it back to Azure Island without letting too much time go by, and Hinjo's life could be compromised there.

And lastly, because they really aren't that far from each other, if they chose to rendezvous at someplace, say, Kraagor's Gate, they would arrive at about the same time.

[FujinAkari]

But while we have a lot of evidence that the Oracle is very slippery with his prophecies, I recall Sangwaan as being fairly straightforward.

Wha? We actually have a lot of evidence that the Oracle is very straight-forward with his prophesies. You can call him vague if you want, but not slippery. His prophesies always mean precisely what he says, they aren't ever 'technically correct'

[factotum]

What does this mean for the comic? Azure Island is just off the coast of the western continent. It's really quite possible for Hinjo to make it there, and probably to meet up with the Order, in about a week, maybe a little longer.


But why would he do that? Also, the Order have travelled an awful long way since they landed at Sandsedge--I doubt a week would be long enough for Hinjo to reach them.

[Warmage]

Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html)

Belkar saved Hinjo from a gnomish assassin!

Seriously, though, he will probably save him in the final battle for one of the Gates (thinking Kraagor's Gate). Possibly even losing his life in the process.

[martianmister]

Some say the other instance was against the hobgoblins in #455 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html), but I don't buy that.

It's look enough for me. :smalltongue:

[Nimrod's Son]

The "Twice" reads like a throwaway afterthought in the last panel of a strip the the majority of the readership will never see. If it's never mentioned again, and I doubt it will be, then Belkar fireballing the Hobgoblins would be quite good enough for me.

[Kilo24]

Clearly, Miko was merely stunned until Belkar's "thunk." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) She would have obviously morphed into her second form and melted Hinjo with fire breath had Belkar's d4 points of subdual damage rendered her properly unconscious.

Seriously, I figured that that strip might apply, but upon rereading it, I can't quite manage to find evidence for Belkar's presence distracting Miko from killing Hinjo.

Actually, upon musing, I seem to recall that further subdual damage turned into lethal damage on an unconscious foe. That should have triggered Belkar's Mark of Justice, so she *couldn't* have been unconscious. Therefore, she might have leapt up and impaled Hinjo had Belkar not done a bit of subdual damage.

...yeah, I know it's stretching.

[GSFB]

The "Twice" reads like a throwaway afterthought

I don't think Giant would throw away so lightly something so meaningful.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Actually, upon musing, I seem to recall that further subdual damage turned into lethal damage on an unconscious foe.
Nope. It doesn’t. Common houserule, but not official.

[KillianHawkeye]

Also, a halfling only does 1d2 damage with an unarmed attack.

[Thanatosia]

Some say the other instance was against the hobgoblins in #455, but I don't buy that.
It simply baffles me that some people consider this the 2nd instance of saving Hinjo's life as there is absolutely no indication Hinjo's life was in any more jeapardy before Belkar intervened then after. Belkar's interlude there had zero impact on the life or death of anyone other then a small number of the hobo archer horde.... the same hobgoblins that were firing at them before Belkar interupted opened fire anyways, and to no great effect.

[HerbieRAI]

It would feel like a let down if the second time was the Fireball, but the only way to prove it is to have Belkar die before he "saves" Hinjo's life again. For all we know one of those arrows could have been a critical and cause Hinjo to fall to his death.

It would seem very unusal for the prophesy to be post-fullfilled, since we didn't know about it until after the battle was over, so to the reader it wouldn't have been a prophesy at all.

To be my own devil's advocate, that could have just been justification for the first release of Belkar. Shojo was chaotic, but he was good. It was obvious by what he did to the guard that he was very evil. Why would a ruler let a man like that out into his people, even with the MOJ? Reason, he got the prophesy that he would save his nephew's life twice. That obviously wouldn't happen if Belkar was locked up, so he would have to be let go. Even after writing that out, I still think Belkar will save his life again, probably trying to save his cat.

[Acora]

While not technically on topic, I'm in the camp of people who think he's still got one more life-saving to go. At the very least, I don't think Belkar is going to die in the Empire of Blood, at least, not any time soon. The Oracle told him to 'enjoy his next birthday cake' or something similar, so we can assume that at the very least, Belker isn't gonna die until after they make some tiny reference to it being his birthday.

[factotum]

The Oracle told him to 'enjoy his next birthday cake' or something similar, so we can assume that at the very least, Belker isn't gonna die until after they make some tiny reference to it being his birthday.

I don't see why that has to happen. None of the Oracle's other prophecies did anything silly with the wording that was then alluded to when they came true.

[Acora]

I don't see why that has to happen. None of the Oracle's other prophecies did anything silly with the wording that was then alluded to when they came true.

I'm only saying that, since the Oracle can see the future, him saying 'Enjoy your next birthday cake', and then telling Roy that Belkar is going to die within the next year, implies that, a. Belkar is going to live to enjoy his next birthday cake, and b. Belkar is going to die withing the next year. I mean, if Belkar was going to die before his next birthday, why would the Oracle make a point of saying that he should enjoy the cake of said birthday?

[FujinAkari]

I'm only saying that, since the Oracle can see the future, him saying 'Enjoy your next birthday cake', and then telling Roy that Belkar is going to die within the next year, implies that, a. Belkar is going to live to enjoy his next birthday cake, and b. Belkar is going to die withing the next year. I mean, if Belkar was going to die before his next birthday, why would the Oracle make a point of saying that he should enjoy the cake of said birthday?

But the Oracle was explicitly -not- looking into the future when he made that quip. The official prophesy is "Belkar will draw his last breath, ever, within one year (that's one in-comic year oracle fans!)"

[Acora]

But the Oracle was explicitly -not- looking into the future when he made that quip. The official prophesy is "Belkar will due within one year (that's one in-comic year oracle fans!)"

I'm not sure how premonitions work in the comic, but assuming that the Oracle sees when Belkar dies when he looks into the future (instead of just hearing a voice telling him that Belkar will die within a year), then he would know if it was before or after Belkar's birthday, and therefore would have no reason to make a statement, even a snarky one, that he knows is false. We can assume (and I know what they say about assuming) that he actually sees the future and doesn't just hear a voice telling him the prophecy because he knew exactly when Belkar would kill him, he knew exactly who it would be that killed him, and he knew about Belkar's Mark of Justice and how to trigger it. Therefore, based on the fact that we can logically assume that the Oracle can see the entire scenario surrounding Belkar's death, and therefore would know if it was before or after said halfling's birthday, he would have no reason to make a statement that is patently false about said situation, and therefore we can assume that it's actually going to be after Belkar's birthday.

And yes, I'm aware that I'm arguing over something completely unimportant.

[Porthos]

But the Oracle was explicitly -not- looking into the future when he made that quip. The official prophesy is "Belkar will draw his last breath, ever, within one year (that's one in-comic year oracle fans!)"

The line "The two of you are running late for a pair of family reunions" suggests that the Oracle talks about the future even when he isn't in his trance.

[Klivian]

I'm only saying that, since the Oracle can see the future, him saying 'Enjoy your next birthday cake', and then telling Roy that Belkar is going to die within the next year, implies that, a. Belkar is going to live to enjoy his next birthday cake, and b. Belkar is going to die withing the next year. I mean, if Belkar was going to die before his next birthday, why would the Oracle make a point of saying that he should enjoy the cake of said birthday?

We are coming up on the end of the year that the Oracle gave him. Roy spent a lot of time dead, and with the amount of time that has gone by, we could easily have just not seen it on panel. We didn't get any special mention of birthdays during the intervening time, with the exception of Roy being told he'd missed his.

Back in 666 http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html

Roy says they have seven weeks left. That was before traveling to the Western Continent, and before spending a lot of time in the desert looking for Girard. I forget if there has been a more recent mention of how much time is left, but Belkar only having at most a month left alive is not unreasonable.

Also add in that he doesn't need to die at the very end of the year and he could drop at any moment.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Roy says they have seven weeks left. That was before traveling to the Western Continent, and before spending a lot of time in the desert looking for Girard. I forget if there has been a more recent mention of how much time is left, but Belkar only having at most a month left alive is not unreasonable.
To my knowledge, the most recent confirmation of how much time Belkar has left is this:

All other references are to relative time...no matter which calendar Redcloak uses, a year is a year, and during the Gobbotopia scenes he announced that it was six years until the one-year-anniversary of the battle. Since the battle took place about a week after the New Year, that means two weeks have passed since Roy's "seven weeks" comment--a few days to travel to Sandsedge, a week spent searching the desert, and a few days looking around the cities on the continent.

The current comic at the time of that post was #725 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html). It has been about three days in-universe since that strip. That leaves Belkar with 4 and a half weeks at most. But, as you said, that is only the upper limit, and the Belkster could drop at any moment before then.

[Thanatosia]

It would feel like a let down if the second time was the Fireball, but the only way to prove it is to have Belkar die before he "saves" Hinjo's life again.
Well.... it would not be 100% confirmation until the end of the strip IMO, or until word of god (the giant) says so.

I'm not in the camp that believes Belkar will skirt his death prophecy by some slight-of-word trickery... I think he's going to die - however, this is a story where at least one major set of antagonists are based in the the Evil Afterlife, so I don't think the death of an evil major character necisarily means he will have no futher impact on the story.

I could see Belkar somehow saving Hinjo's life as a result of actions he takes on the lower planes in a story arch involving the IFCC for example.