Adding Claws? (Magic of Incarnum)

[Krüsher]

Hello playground! I have another MoI question for ya. My friend who is relatively new to dnd is DMing my campaign. He picked up the rules fairly quickly and I figured if he had trouble with them I could help. But sometimes he gets kinda weird with "rule zero-ing" and I need your input on the matter. I am making a character who has the feral template, and when he has levels in totemist I plan on giving him Girillon Arms. Feral gives the character with the template 2 claws that do damage according to size and such. Girillon arms says that you gain 4 claws that you can attack with and the flavor text says that you grow only 1 extra pair of arms. (The idea being that your original arms gain claws.) The way I read this was:
1. You gain two arms that give claw attacks, and your original arms get and extra 2 claw attacks (with the soulmeld damage, not the feral claw damage.)
2. You gain 4 more arms. All of your arms have claws and therefore you can't double up.
3. This third one represents my friend's arguement. Since you only gain one pair of arms, you can only use the claws from feral on your main arms, and the girillon arms for yor extras. Giving you only 4 attacks.
What do you guys think?

[Keld Denar]

Overlapping natural weapons means you use the most advantageous of the two. If you already have a claw, and a meld gives you a better claw, use that. If a meld gives you a claw that is worse than your original claw, use the original. He still gains 2 claws from the meld. In this case, it would be best to use his 2 feral claws as his primary natural weapons and everything else as secondary.

[Krüsher]

Overlapping natural weapons means you use the most advantageous of the two. If you already have a claw, and a meld gives you a better claw, use that. If a meld gives you a claw that is worse than your original claw, use the original. He still gains 2 claws from the meld. In this case, it would be best to use his 2 feral claws as his primary natural weapons and everything else as secondary.

Is this your opinion/ruling on the subject or an actual rule? If the latter could you direct me to where it is said?

[Keld Denar]

Its never spelled out anywhere in a general rule area because its not something that happens often. There are a few items, such as the Dragon Claws soulmeld in Dragon Magic that state this. Fist of the Forest in Complete Champion has this clause as well with regards to it's bite attack.

[Krüsher]

ah, well the way I read it was that I am gaining 4 more claws. Since that is what it says RAW. But I dunno. I would like to hear other people's ideas.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

ah, well the way I read it was that I am gaining 4 more claws. Since that is what it says RAW. But I dunno. I would like to hear other people's ideas.

I agree with Keld, Option 3. You get your Feral claws, and two extra claws.

Still, when you bind Sphinx Claws to Hand chakra, which nets you Pounce, it is quite powerful.

Don't forget the following:

Dread Carapace. More damage = more fun. You don't even need to bind it.

Totem Avatar. In addition to more hit points, bind it to Shoulders and it nets you a size increase for natural attacks.

Urksan Greaves gives you bonus damage on charges when you bind it to feet.

[Keld Denar]

You ARE gaining 4 claws. 2 of them just happen to overlap with 2 of your existing claws.

Similar to having a pair of Gauntlets of Str +2, and then receiving the benefits of a Bull's Strength spell. The spell says you gain a +4 Enhancement bonus to your Str score, but you already have a +2 bonus. Thus, you gain the difference. They overlap, and you only gain the benefit of the strongest effect.

If you already have claws on the end of your hands, you can't gain a second set of claws at the end of those same hands. Your hands are too full of claws to gain more claws! If the claws you get from the meld are better than your current claws, the meld will "reinforce" your existing claws, upping their damage to match the meld. If not, they will lie "underneath" your existing claws, unused and redundant.

[Darrin]

Is this your opinion/ruling on the subject or an actual rule? If the latter could you direct me to where it is said?

For whatever reason, Magic of Incarnum was very vague on the natural weapon rules, and I can't tell if this was accidental or intentional. Keld's a S.M.E. (Subject Matter Expert) on unarmed strikes/natural attacks (see his mini-guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0)), so you can generally take his opinion as RAW. (We still occasionally gripe at one another over pathetically insignificant little details, but his interpretation favors playability and fewer rules headaches than mine or Skip's. But no need to go into that here.)

However, if you're looking for actual text, the designers on Dragon Magic may have been aware that MoI wasn't entirely adequate on the whole natural attack thing and added an additional sentence to Claws of the Wyrm:

"If you already have claw attacks, use either your normal claw damage or the damage given for this soulmeld, whichever is higher."

Now, granted, this text only applies to one specfic soulmeld (Claws of the Wyrm), but you could interpret it as a general rule of how to treat any soulmeld that overlaps an existing natural weapon. And since it passes most Common Sense/RAI tests with flying colors, well... why make your life more complicated than it needs to be?

If you need six claw attacks, then take the Double Chakra feat at 9th and add Lamia Belt to Girallon Arms.

[Person_Man]

Yeah, Keld's statement is basically the consensus opinion around here. WotC did a really cruddy job of handling natural weapons (and stacking rules in general).

Also, if you have the Feral template already, you're probably better off with a binding a different soulmeld to your Totem chakra, like Basalisk Mask (Flesh to Stone), Frost Helm (Stun burst), Heart of Fire (bonus fire damage to all natural weapons), or Blink Shirt (Move Action Dimension Door). Put that together with Dragon Tail and Chaos Roc's Span (Dragon Mag 350 pg87) soulmelds, a Horned Helm (Magic Item Compendium) for a gore attack, plus a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic) for Improved Unarmed Strike (so that you don't have to give up your claw attacks to make your normal attack routine), and you're set.

[Krüsher]

Yeah, Keld's statement is basically the consensus opinion around here. WotC did a really cruddy job of handling natural weapons (and stacking rules in general).

Also, if you have the Feral template already, you're probably better off with a binding a different soulmeld to your Totem chakra, like Basalisk Mask (Flesh to Stone), Frost Helm (Stun burst), Heart of Fire (bonus fire damage to all natural weapons), or Blink Shirt (Move Action Dimension Door). Put that together with Dragon Tail and Chaos Roc's Span (Dragon Mag 350 pg87) soulmelds, a Horned Helm (Magic Item Compendium) for a gore attack, plus a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic) for Improved Unarmed Strike (so that you don't have to give up your claw attacks to make your normal attack routine), and you're set.

Ah okay. I was simply focusing on claws because I planned on going into Thayan Gladiator later on, and having six claws would be awesome.
On a similar subject. If someone were to have the insectoid template, if they took the meld "sphinx claws" would they get claws on all of their hands?

[IthroZada]

Is there anything stopping you from putting a pair of claws on your feet instead?

[Krüsher]

Is there anything stopping you from putting a pair of claws on your feet instead?

I like the way you think! Never said anything about where the claws are!

[Keld Denar]

Sphinx Claws says it only gives you 1 pair of claws, so no, you couldn't gain 6 claws with it if you had 6 arms.

As far as claws on your hands or feet, as I mentioned: Lamia Beld (and also Landshark Boots) explicitly give you claws on your feet. Thus, if the bind doesn't say that the claws you gain are on your feet, they are not on your feet.

[Greenish]

As far as claws on your hands or feet, as I mentioned: Lamia Beld (and also Landshark Boots) explicitly give you claws on your feet. Thus, if the bind doesn't say that the claws you gain are on your feet, they are not on your feet.And Landshark boots require you to jump and use a special action to be able to attack with the foot-claws that you have, while Lamia Belt gives you an extra pair of legs to stand on while using the front pair.

It's not like you can just hover there while you claw the enemy with all of your appendages.


Besides, your friend is a new DM, it's not like you'd be needing that many claw attacks.

[Krüsher]

Ya, the first problem I realized was that if any beast has the ability to claw someone with their hind legs, it is considered a rake. So I guess no claws on mah feets :smallfrown:

[Keld Denar]

Its not ALWAYS considered a rake. Raking is a very special combat action that only occurs during a grapple. A creature that could fly could attack with claws on its feet on the round following a Hover action, for example, assuming it had claws on its feet. A rake can only be made in a grapple.

[Krüsher]

Its not ALWAYS considered a rake. Raking is a very special combat action that only occurs during a grapple. A creature that could fly could attack with claws on its feet on the round following a Hover action, for example, assuming it had claws on its feet. A rake can only be made in a grapple.

or on a pounce right?

[Keld Denar]

Well, there is a bit of wierd language there. All creatures that have Pounce, Imp Grab, and Rake have contradicting language in them.


Pounce (Ex)

If a lion charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

Improved Grab (Ex)

To use this ability, a lion must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.


Rake

A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

So, the two bolded statements more or less contradict each other. Improved Grab for the lion states that if the lion can grab ahold of the foe, it can rake. Rake states that a rake attack may never be made on the round the grapple is initiated. So...yea...

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah, Keld's statement is basically the consensus opinion around here. WotC did a really cruddy job of handling natural weapons (and stacking rules in general).

Also, if you have the Feral template already, you're probably better off with a binding a different soulmeld to your Totem chakra, like Basalisk Mask (Flesh to Stone), Frost Helm (Stun burst), Heart of Fire (bonus fire damage to all natural weapons), or Blink Shirt (Move Action Dimension Door). Put that together with Dragon Tail and Chaos Roc's Span (Dragon Mag 350 pg87) soulmelds, a Horned Helm (Magic Item Compendium) for a gore attack, plus a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic) for Improved Unarmed Strike (so that you don't have to give up your claw attacks to make your normal attack routine), and you're set.

You forgot Astral Vambraces! How could you?

[Krüsher]

Sphinx Claws says it only gives you 1 pair of claws, so no, you couldn't gain 6 claws with it if you had 6 arms.

As far as claws on your hands or feet, as I mentioned: Lamia Beld (and also Landshark Boots) explicitly give you claws on your feet. Thus, if the bind doesn't say that the claws you gain are on your feet, they are not on your feet.

The part about sphinx claws isn't necessarily true. It says you gain a "set" of claws on your hands. If you have 6 hands...?

[stainboy]

I don't know of any RAW restriction against multiple claws on the same limb. And Girallon Arms gives you two extra arms, not four arms. So by RAW, the answer is Option 1 unless someone can cite a page that says only one claw attack per limb.

Most of the totemist discussion I've seen online acknowledges this, then goes on assuming Option 3.

[Keld Denar]

The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

You get one claw attack per claw. Period. If an ability gives you a claw attack, and you already have a claw attack with that claw, it is redundant. You simply use whichever attack is more favorable.

You can't just gain 20 claw attacks with nowhere to put them.

The rules don't say you can't hold 15 daggers in one hand either, but yet most people understand that as implied. I don't see how its any different with claws?

Also, Sphinx Claws makes multiple references to your hands. This sounds to me like they are intended to only replace your hands. The extra limbs you get from Insectile or Girallon Arms are not hands, but rather claws, since they can't wield weapons. If you actually HAD 4 hands, then it does sound like Sphinx Claws would work for that.

[stainboy]

That's one attack per claw, not one claw per limb.

[Keld Denar]

And where do you propose to PUT those extra claws?

[balistafreak]

And where do you propose to PUT those extra claws?

One claw for each finger. You don't have only one claw on one arm, unless it's a REALLY big claw. :smallamused:

Yeah, I got nothing.

[Keld Denar]

Heh...I'm guessing that was a joke, but claws are already rather abstracted. Creatures with 3 clawed "fingers" are more or less similar to creatures with 4 clawed "fingers" and 5 clawed "fingers". Only relative creature size makes much difference in most cases. The number of talons on a claw don't give a creature any more attacks per round, or any mechanical difference I've ever noticed.

I know a lot of CharOp threads mention taking Double Chakra bind and stacking Girallon Arms on top of Sphinx Claws or other claw based soulmelds, but that doesn't mean they are right. Lots of false information gets regurgitated by people who don't understand the rules they are talking about.

I provided proof that both the rules support my position, and common sense supports it as well. What is your proof to the contrary?

[Krüsher]

Heh...I'm guessing that was a joke, but claws are already rather abstracted. Creatures with 3 clawed "fingers" are more or less similar to creatures with 4 clawed "fingers" and 5 clawed "fingers". Only relative creature size makes much difference in most cases. The number of talons on a claw don't give a creature any more attacks per round, or any mechanical difference I've ever noticed.

I know a lot of CharOp threads mention taking Double Chakra bind and stacking Girallon Arms on top of Sphinx Claws or other claw based soulmelds, but that doesn't mean they are right. Lots of false information gets regurgitated by people who don't understand the rules they are talking about.

I provided proof that both the rules support my position, and common sense supports it as well. What is your proof to the contrary?

I have no proof to the contrary. But going back to sphinx claws... You said that insectile doesn't give you hands? So you just grow 4 more arms with stubs on them? I think not. Sphinx Claws are not limited to the number of hands, in fact all they say is that they overtake your hands. So we can assume they overtake all of them, yes?

[Krüsher]

Also, they are not claws. It specifically says that they aren't and you do not gain any attacks from them. So I can only assume that they are hands.

[Keld Denar]

I was under the impression that the arms given by insectile were just extra claw attacks. Its been a while since I read that template. Isn't it in MMII?

[Krüsher]

I was under the impression that the arms given by insectile were just extra claw attacks. Its been a while since I read that template. Isn't it in MMII?

The one I know of is from SS.

[Keld Denar]

Ah, SS...the book with the most errors and wierd inconsistancies, trapped forever in limbo between 3.0 and 3.5.

I'll take a look at it when I get back from work tomorrow morning and check on the wording.

[Necroticplague]

I was under the impression that the arms given by insectile were just extra claw attacks. Its been a while since I read that template. Isn't it in MMII?

Actually, insectile specifies that its extra arms don't give more attacks.

[Person_Man]

You forgot Astral Vambraces! How could you?

Because Astral Vambraces (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) is an Incanate/Soulborn soulmeld, and he's playing a Totemist?



Ah okay. I was simply focusing on claws because I planned on going into Thayan Gladiator later on, and having six claws would be awesome.

Thayan Gladiator? May I ask why? I assume that you want it to improve your claws, but they actually do a fairly cruddy job of that compared to soulmelds, and they don't get any other resources to play with. Since you've already made the decision to use the Totemist, why not just stick with Totemist? And if you're really intent on focusing on claws specifically, have you looked at Psychic Warrior and/or Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20060920)?

[Fax Celestis]

Because Astral Vambraces (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) is an Incanate/Soulborn soulmeld, and he's playing a Totemist?

Drop a feat on it. DR/Magic is an extremely early all-day way to overcome DR/magic, and two more natural attacks from a non-totem meld are golden to a totemist. Or you can bind it to your arms for a 20' fly (ave), +10' untyped to base speeds, free Imp. Natural Attack, free Imp. Bull Rush, free Power Attack, or wolf tripping. Astral Vambraces are basically a bucket of smashy candy.

[Krüsher]

Thayan Gladiator? May I ask why? I assume that you want it to improve your claws, but they actually do a fairly cruddy job of that compared to soulmelds, and they don't get any other resources to play with. Since you've already made the decision to use the Totemist, why not just stick with Totemist? And if you're really intent on focusing on claws specifically, have you looked at Psychic Warrior and/or Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20060920)?

Mostly for getting an obscene amount of attacks, free natural armor, and a few other nice things. Also sounds very fun to role-play.

[stainboy]

And where do you propose to PUT those extra claws?

As far as I know RAW only cares that you gain claw attacks, not what you look like afterward. I'm just talking about what the books say (or rather, don't say), not whether it makes sense or whether you should follow it.

FWIW sphinx claws could logically coexist with girallon arms/landshark boots. Girallon/landshark claws are sharp fingernails. Sphinx claws are Shredder claws on the back of your hands.

[Coidzor]

Is anyone else always annoyed by how girallon arms works when they are reminded of it?

How borked would you say it was to just make girallon arms not overlap with one's two primary arms, but instead just be four of the ghostly ones? Perhaps by having it as an effect after a certain amount of essentia was invested?

...I think mostly there's something about the idea of having 4 extra, ghostly limbs with claws sprouting from one's shoulders/back that reminds me of the zerg. Possibly Kerrigan or something like that...:smallconfused:

[Cerlis]

the whole issue is the whole point of the soulmeld is to become like a gorillion. which has 4 arms. So the soulstuff molds over your original arms and gives you two new ones. You dont gain new claws because one of your set of claws is superimpossed over the other.

--------------
How borked would you say it was to just make girallon arms not overlap with one's two primary arms, but instead just be four of the ghostly ones? Perhaps by having it as an effect after a certain amount of essentia was invested?

because gorillions dont have 6 arms. the theme of the class is not to have pieces of monsters coming out of you, but to become more like those monsters.

[Ivellius]

Well, there is a bit of wierd language there. All creatures that have Pounce, Imp Grab, and Rake have contradicting language in them.


(snip)


So, the two bolded statements more or less contradict each other. Improved Grab for the lion states that if the lion can grab ahold of the foe, it can rake. Rake states that a rake attack may never be made on the round the grapple is initiated. So...yea...

I just wanted to point out that they don't contradict each other at all. Improved Grab never makes mention of when the rake attack occurs, just that the lion gains the ability to do so whenever it establishes a grapple. It really ought to need another action to use rake anyway, so the clarification under the "Rake" entry is good. Granted, you could do away with the language in Improved Grab that points out rake attacks are allowed in a grapple, but then you'd have to go to the "Rake" entry to understand that's allowed.

The Girallon Arms Totem Bind also explicitly uses two of your real arms and adds two "ghost" arms. You may gain 4 new claws (notice it doesn't say you gain "4 claw attacks"), but if you already have claws on your regular arms, it seems pretty clear that the incarnum claws "overwrite" them.

Dunno how much my input's worth, but it's there.

[stainboy]

The Girallon Arms Totem Bind also explicitly uses two of your real arms and adds two "ghost" arms. You may gain 4 new claws (notice it doesn't say you gain "4 claw attacks")...

It does, just not in those words.



You can make a single claw attack as a primary attack, using your full attack bonus and adding your Strength bonus on your damage roll. You can make up to three additional claw attacks as secondary attacks, following either a primary claw attack or an attack with a weapon.

1 primary + 3 secondaries = 4 claw attacks.

That "single claw attack as a primary attack" bit does imply you can't combine the primary with claws from other sources, but there's no restriction on the secondaries. Now here's the fun part: It also doesn't say that your claw attacks all have to be with different claw weapons. We get the 1 weapon -> 1 attack rule from this bit in the SRD:



The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

...but Girallon Arms just says one primary and three secondaries, nothing about different natural weapons or free hands or anything. You could call it a specific exception overriding a general rule. Even if your DM rules you can't use girallon claws and sphinx claws on the same limb, you could still try to attack with sphinx claws on your real arms, then take all three secondaries with your two ghosty arms.

[Quietus]

...but Girallon Arms just says one primary and three secondaries, nothing about different natural weapons or free hands or anything. You could call it a specific exception overriding a general rule. Even if your DM rules you can't use girallon claws and sphinx claws on the same limb, you could still try to attack with sphinx claws on your real arms, then take all three secondaries with your two ghosty arms.

Which would fall under the "Yeah, you might be technically right, but that's ridiculous, use some common sense" clause.

[TehLivingDeath]

Which would fall under the "Yeah, you might be technically right, but that's ridiculous, use some common sense" clause.

To me it looks more like a "the rules don't say I can't" scenario, to be quite honest.

[Cerlis]

well i think it seems to me a that most of the time when you see a single entry or class and you need clarification you go to the universal rule. So instead of looking at the Rules and then looking at the girillion and saying "the girillion doesnt say that so i can do it" is incorrect. The girillion(arms) cant do it because the DMG/MM/whatever spells out the rules on natural weapons which say you cant do that. and since those attacks are natural weapons, you cant. and i know in many abilities that if they are different they specifically say so. Abilities specifically say if they can be used in the same round as a weapon in that hand, or if they are free action, or treated as divine instead of arcane, or if they increase your base attack bonus instead of just add to attack roll.


If something in an individual entry says nothing, then sure you can treat it that way, but only if the higher rules dont contradict it, unless the lesser rules specifically contradict it.

In other words individual entry rules have to be specific , not vague, to break the rules. if they are vague, the ruling just goes back to the General Rules of the Game , which say you cant.