When I say Shadow Dancer, you think...?

[NineThePuma]

What the title said. I'd like people's thoughts and opinions on Shadow Dancer. ^^

[Kefkafreak]

I think... Hide in Plain Sight?

[ILM]

Yuck.678910

[supermonkeyjoe]

1 or 2 level dip

[Kojiro]

A fun concept, but sadly they're a bit weak as-is. Unfortunate; they could be pretty awesome while sticking to the same basic idea and even most of the abilities.

[darksolitaire]

Needs more Teflammar Shadowlord or Crinti Marauder.

[Wings of Peace]

When you say Shadow Dancer I think Umbral Disciple. It's pretty much everything I wish the Shadow Dancer had been.

[NNescio]

I think... "not so ueful in a stick-figure comic." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0229.html) Except when fire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0242.html) is involved.

[Roc Ness]

I used to think: "Sounds like a cool idea."

I now think: "Still a cool idea. Could use some extra goodies, though."

EDIT: Like limitless shadow-ports per/day (except range wise, o'course). Maybe some sneak attack progression, swift action-shadow ports, maybe some spring attack style shadow-ports (probably with some sneak attack bonus), maybe some more powerful supernatural shadow abilities akin to those of a shadow-caster, maybe a capstone that can plunge a wide area into shadow (possibly at will...?).

EDIT:: And maybe some actually dancing abilities.

[Person_Man]

Elton John's high pitched singing: "Hooold me closer, tiny dancer..."

Honestly though, it's a garbage PrC.

[McClintock]

Rod Hammerand and the worst Played PC EVER!

That and a bad re-worded version of Private Dancer.

[Telonius]

I think ... needs sneak progression.

[Piggy Knowles]

Terrible pre-reqs. Combat Reflexes, Dodge and Mobility imply that you want to be in melee, but you've got no way of actually being effective in melee at all.

That said, the class features are actually pretty good. But it does run into the same problem that a lot of stealth-heavy classes do - stealth just plain isn't valuable in every situation, especially if you can't get it to benefit your whole party. If you can't help out in other situations as well, you're going to be spending half your time (or more) doing next to nothing.

I played a Ranger/Shadowdancer/Dread Commando in a long-running wilderness campaign that was pretty good, but only because we were in a stealth focused party. It would have been a lot less fun (and a lot less effective) if I was the only infiltrator in the party.

[NNescio]

Terrible pre-reqs. Combat Reflexes, Dodge and Mobility imply that you want to be in melee, but you've got no way of actually being effective in melee at all.

That said, the class features are actually pretty good. But it does run into the same problem that a lot of stealth-heavy classes do - stealth just plain isn't valuable in every situation, especially if you can't get it to benefit your whole party. If you can't help out in other situations as well, you're going to be spending half your time (or more) doing next to nothing.

I played a Ranger/Shadowdancer/Dread Commando in a long-running wilderness campaign that was pretty good, but only because we were in a stealth focused party. It would have been a lot less fun (and a lot less effective) if I was the only infiltrator in the party.

Darkstalker is useful on a Factotum chassis. Or even on a Rogue. Stealth is useful for scouting, getting surprise rounds, and activating abilities that require your opponents to be flat-footed.

[HalfDragonCube]

Maybe if the rogue class slowly got the features of shadowdancer for free in addition to the normal features, then you would have a fairly balanced class, that leads well into assassin.

One day...

[Piggy Knowles]

Darkstalker is useful on a Factotum chassis. Or even on a Rogue. Stealth is useful for scouting, getting surprise rounds, and activating abilities that require your opponents to be flat-footed.

Yeah, Darkstalker is amazing, and stealth in general is a useful ability to have. It's just that you can't build a character whose only schtick is stealth, and expect to succeed throughout the game.

There is no resource in the game more precious than class levels, and to spend 10 of them on stealth and stealth alone just isn't worth it, unfortunately (unless you happen to be playing in a campaign and party that favors it).

That's the biggest problem with the Shadowdancer. The class features are great. Unless your DM allows templates, it's just about the earliest way to get Hide in Plain Sight in the game. Add in good skills, several excellent defensive abilities (evasion/imp evasion, defensive roll, uncanny dodge, slippery mind), limited teleportation, and even the ability to summon scouts or create illusory images, and you've got the makings of an amazing infiltrator.

But what do you do in situations where infiltration and stealth isn't appropriate? You've blown more than half your career on that one thing, and gotten very good at it, but you can't do anything else. Normally I'm all about encouraging characters to specialize, but in this instance, it will just turn around and bite you.

[Dark Kerman]

Neverwinter Nights. DAAAAANG was that a good 1 level dip for rogues.

[Luckmann]

I think "Hide in Plain Sight" and "Jumping between shadows shenanigans".

[King Atticus]

I think about a whole lot of wasted skill points spent on perform (dance) and (while more useful) really high ranks in hide making it take too long to qualify for a 1 level dip to get hide in plain sight.

[Ravens_cry]

I think ... needs sneak progression.
Yeah, that's my gripe as well. Maybe not full. But even 1 in 3 levels (several Pathfinder prestige classes do this) would help it slice and slice while dancing from, well, the shadows.

[FMArthur]

I think "stealth for stealth". I actually don't think about its wierder later abilities. I just think of its stealth features and wonder where it was supposed to be going with them.

[mabriss lethe]

I think Shadow Hand maneuvers do the concept far more justice than the entire shadow dancer class does.

[NamelessNPC]

FWIW, the PF shadowdancer has shadow conjuration and shadow evocation as SLAs. Of course, it uses your shadowdancer level as your caster level, and DCs use CHA, so it's pretty much useless.
In any case, it has better numbers than the 3.5 class, gains rogue talents and actually has a capstone: in areas of dim light you get DR 10/-, +2 luck bonus to saves and your critical hits blind for 1d6.

[Daftendirekt]

The consensus in my group is this:

-It's best for rogue builds, but lack of Sneak Attack dice gimps it.

-Its other abilities are so cool that Sneak Attack would make it overpowered.

So, it's just kind of stuck in limbo.

[Psyren]

When you say Shadow Dancer I think Umbral Disciple. It's pretty much everything I wish the Shadow Dancer had been.

Hell, you don't even need Incarnum to make it work. Give it "Shadow Points" or some other resource spun from whole cloth (like the Demonbinder's "damnation points,") tie them to its class level, and go to town.

[TOZ]

I think it's a wonderful idea.

[Dsurion]

Same thing I think about most-to-all prestige classes: Cool idea, dislike prerequisites for it, possibly more interesting as a feat chain or added abilities on top of another class.

[JaronK]

That goodness the Dark template and Swordsages do this better, and make it playable.

JaronK

[Luckmann]

FWIW, the PF shadowdancer has shadow conjuration and shadow evocation as SLAs. Of course, it uses your shadowdancer level as your caster level, and DCs use CHA, so it's pretty much useless.
In any case, it has better numbers than the 3.5 class, gains rogue talents and actually has a capstone: in areas of dim light you get DR 10/-, +2 luck bonus to saves and your critical hits blind for 1d6.
Yeah, I really like the PF Shadow Dancer, but it really should have a clause that made the Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocations have the caster level dependant on, like, all class levels in classes that have Stealth as a class skill. Or something.

Also, 320 feet Shadow Jump compared to the 3.5 160 feet (at level 10). I love the shenanigans you could potentially pull with that.

Also, Stealth 5 and Perform 2 is a rather low skill requirement. Still 3 feats, though.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I think it is weak mechanically but very strong if you use Shadow Jump with your imagination. Just think of all the thieving possibilities.

[Luckmann]

I think it is weak mechanically but very strong if you use Shadow Jump with your imagination. Just think of all the thieving possibilities.

At least with the Pathfinder version (works as Dimension Door (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dimension-door)), it specifically states that you always arrive at any spot within range and always exactly where you desire, even if you simply say "twenty feet thathaway".

In the dead of the night, no castle unbreachable. No vault secure. No dungeon inescapable. The fact that you can do this at a range of 320 feet (~92 meters) is just tremendous icing. If you for some reason can't materialize in a untraversable spot (such as in a wall), you will get bumped to the closest eligible spot within 1000 feet.

I wonder where I'd end up if I tried to jump 10 feet forward, from a companion's shadow, in the middle of a desert.

[Daremonai]

You've got me wondering now. How would you stat up Shadow Dancer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_Dancer)?

[Piggy Knowles]

The consensus in my group is this:

-It's best for rogue builds, but lack of Sneak Attack dice gimps it.

-Its other abilities are so cool that Sneak Attack would make it overpowered.

I don't think adding sneak attack to the Shadowdancer would make it overpowered. In fact, I think it still would be a tough choice to take in non-core campaigns, because you're still not really doing anything that the Swordsage can't do just as well on his own. That being said, here are three potential fixes that I think could make the Shadowdancer worth taking

1. Make it a five-level prestige class, and fix the pre-requisites.

If it didn't require a hugely significant feat investment, and didn't take up 10 of your class levels, it could fit into a number of builds without diluting them too much.

2. Keep the pre-requisites, but make them tie into the rest of the class features, and give it something interesting to do.

Basically, I'm envisioning merging the Shadowdancer with the Elocator, so that it actually rewards you for your feat investment by giving you class features that work well with them. Give Spring Attack as a bonus feat. Take the daily cap off of the shadow jump, and add in a class feature that lets you do a Shadow Spring Attack. Maybe even a "shadow blade" style capstone that lets you resolve one attack/round as a touch attack, to reward you for sticking it out for 10 levels. Keep the flavor, but tie it into useful mechanics, instead of just arbitrarily doling out everything listed under the Rogue's "Special Ability" section.

3. Embrace the fact that the Swordsage does it better by making it a prestige class that specifically works with Swordsages focused on the Shadow Hand style, advancing your maneuvers and combining them with some of the concepts of the Shadowdancer class.

Oh, hey, while we're at it, maybe this one could advance the Shadow Hand school, and also tie in something to do with dancing? Because, you know, it makes a big deal about being a dancer, and then forgets about it, both in fluff and in crunch. Just a thought...

[Luckmann]

[...]

Oh, hey, while we're at it, maybe this one could advance the Shadow Hand school, and also tie in something to do with dancing? Because, you know, it makes a big deal about being a dancer, and then forgets about it, both in fluff and in crunch. Just a thought...

Now I sorta wish that there was some kind of spell-less Bard archetype, or some way to make the Shadowdancer have bard spell progression or somesuch.

A real, honest-to-god, dancing Shadowdancer, silently singing from the shadows... :smallamused: