Help me help my players.

[Nepenthe]

First time DM here. I'm about to start my first campaign, and I'd like some advice I can pass on to my players. I've read pretty much every "DM Tips" thread that's come through here in the last few months, but if you have anything to add for me, feel free.

It's a very low-op group, so I'm not looking for anything too ridiculous. I just want everyone to feel like they're effective in their chosen roles and have the periodic "moment of awesome." Looking for advice on advancement such as prestige classes, feat selection, etc. as well as equipment and low-level tactics they can put to good use.

Eberron setting, starting at level 1. My players are:
Human Artificer
Human Artificer (Yes, two. They're playing sisters, one of which is dragon marked.)
Warforged Crusader (might change class)
Shifter Warblade
Halfling Paladin
Human Rogue

I've already advised the artificers to specialize (one on blasting, one on buffing) so they don't step on each others' toes too much. The shifter is looking at going into Bloodclaw Master and maybe Warshaper. The paladin is going for a mounted charger build (on his clawfoot dinosaur mount). The rogue is trying for ranged combat (I think), but I haven't seen any of his build yet. I'm going to encourage him to keep UMD maxed. The warforged can't decide what he's doing yet.

I'm particularly worried about the paladin and rogue being able to keep up at higher levels. (At least they're sure to have excellent gear.) Any ideas for prestige classes for those?

That's about all I can think of for now. Thanks in advance!

[King Atticus]

I've never played one but the Halfling Outrider looks like a decent PrC that has some pretty cool flavor to it. It keeps up a full BAB, adds some defensive stuff (AC bonus, evasion, etc), gives some decent riding abilities (stacks with Pal for mount abilities). Might be a good mix in with Cavalier, get a pretty respectable charger build out of it.

[hivedragon]

I would suggest the paladin play the prestige paladin from unearthed arcana.
Also as written the warshaper is totally broken as there is no limit on the number of natural weapons the can produce/improve, I'd limit it to one per level, 5 being the maximum.

[Nepenthe]

Thanks!

I've looked at Halfling Outrider before and honestly, I don't get it. Can someone explain to me why it's so good (I've even heard "broken")? Cavalier looks cool though, thanks for pointing that out.

Prestige Paladin sounds amazing, but I don't think the player is very interested in spell casting. Still, I'll mention it to him.

[sonofzeal]

Thanks!

I've looked at Halfling Outrider before and honestly, I don't get it. Can someone explain to me why it's so good (I've even heard "broken")? Cavalier looks cool though, thanks for pointing that out.

Prestige Paladin sounds amazing, but I don't think the player is very interested in spell casting. Still, I'll mention it to him.
Halfling Outrider is useful for some more theoretical-optimization exercises that combine Mounts / Animal Companions / etc into Ubermounts capable of entirely overshadowing their riders in combat.

I'm playing a PPally right now, and I highly support them. I don't actually cast that many spells, but I have them when I need them. I lose very little compared to a pure Pally, only -2 BAB and -7 hp... but both of those can be compensated for easily. In return I have much better healing magic, wards against all sorts of things (Energy Resistance, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward), and some of the really great spells like Commune, Raise Dead, True Seeing, Wind Walk, etc. I still play like a melee character, front line with a two-handed weapon laying down the pain with my Undead Bane War Scythe from the back of my semi-celestial Warhorse.

[Nepenthe]

Ok, after digging a bit more into the Prestige Paladin, I'm now looking at something like: Cleric 3/Fighter 2/Prestige Paladin 4/Cavalier 6/Prestige Pally X. Does that seem reasonable? It might be moot if the player doesn't go for it, but if I'm gonna suggest something, I want it to at least be a good suggestion.

EDIT: Also, if I'm reading this right, P. Pally advances Cleric casting, but you can also prepare Paladin spells in those slots. Is that right?

[sonofzeal]

Ok, after digging a bit more into the Prestige Paladin, I'm now looking at something like: Cleric 3/Fighter 2/Prestige Paladin 4/Cavalier 6/Prestige Pally X. Does that seem reasonable? It might be moot if the player doesn't go for it, but if I'm gonna suggest something, I want it to at least be a good suggestion.

EDIT: Also, if I'm reading this right, P. Pally advances Cleric casting, but you can also prepare Paladin spells in those slots. Is that right?
I went Cleric 6 / PPal 3 / Fist of Raziel X. Fist is from BoED. Only two lost caster levels, and two lost points of BAB. It progresses spellcasting better than more PPal, and gives more smites too.


And.... uh, what gave you that impression? It doesn't say diddly squat about adding Paladin spells to your spell list, that I've ever seen.

[sonofzeal]

(double post)

[King Atticus]

I've looked at Halfling Outrider before and honestly, I don't get it. Can someone explain to me why it's so good (I've even heard "broken")? Cavalier looks cool though, thanks for pointing that out.

I'm not sure about the brokeness aspect of it, I've heard it can be done but never looked in to (or cared to) a build that does so. In a low-op game I'd like it for the fluff. I think it gives a richness to a character, kind of a "I spend a ton of time with my mount look at all the cool stuff we can do (as he's standing on his mounts back whirling his sling)." It's not in-and-of itself going to keep him relevent though. I like to give my melee guys some fun rp stuff to keep them fresh once they start to drown in the casters' shadow. :smallwink:

[Nepenthe]

And.... uh, what gave you that impression? It doesn't say diddly squat about adding Paladin spells to your spell list, that I've ever seen.

From the "Prestigious Character Classes" section on d20srd.org:

Unique Spells

The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.

[sonofzeal]

From the "Prestigious Character Classes" section on d20srd.org:
Ah! Thanks!

[King Atticus]

That footnote is just so they didn't have to list each class seperately. You're still limited to spells for your respective class. (bard spells for bard, pali for pali, ranger for ranger) It's just saying you can still have those class only spells even though you aren't using the core class.


edit: I just reread your post, sorry wasn't trying to sound condescending. :smallsmile: Yes you get access to those "paladin only" spells just like you had taken the core class.

[Nepenthe]

Met with my players last night. The warforged is sticking with crusader. I also found out that the rogue hasn't even considered anything past level 1. I have no experience with archery builds. What's a good direction to point him in?

[RandomNPC]

Met with my players last night. The warforged is sticking with crusader. I also found out that the rogue hasn't even considered anything past level 1. I have no experience with archery builds. What's a good direction to point him in?

Order of the Bow Initiate.

[Greenish]

Order of the Bow Initiate.…is a trap. Avoid at all cost.

[sonofzeal]

Order of the Bow Initiate.
....looks great until you realize you only get those tasty tasty d8s as a special standard action attack. No Rapid Shot, no iteratives, a single shot that still does pretty mediocre damage for that level. Total disappointment.

Admiral Akbar disapproves.

[gorfnab]

I also found out that the rogue hasn't even considered anything past level 1. I have no experience with archery builds. What's a good direction to point him in?
Mage Slayer + Pierce Magical Concealment + Ring of Blinking = at least then he is mostly guaranteed sneak attack damage on ranged attacks. Rogues are really not well suited for archery. Rogue 4/ Swashbuckler X with Daring Outlaw and Craven is fairly standard for a build for most combat based Rogues. Otherwise see if you could convince him to switch out for a Swift Hunter (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0) instead if he wants archery but with a "roguish" feel.

Here are two Swift Hunter builds I've used before

Human Swift Hunter
1. Scout - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Scout
3. Scout - Alertness (prereq for SoK)
4. Ranger - (Arcane Hunter ACF), B: Track
5. Scout - B: Swift Hunter
6. Scout - Favored of the Champions (prereq for SoK)
7. Ranger - B: Rapid Shot
8. Stalker of Kharash
9. Stalker of Kharash - Nemesis: Evil
10. Ranger - B: Endurance
11. Ranger - (Distracting Attack ACF)
12. Ranger - Improved Skirmish
13. Ranger - B: Manyshot
14. Ranger
15. Ranger - Greater Manyshot
16. Ranger - (Spell Reflection ACF)
17. Ranger
18. Ranger - Darkstalker, B: Improved Precise Shot
19. Ranger
20. Ranger


Human Swift Hunter
1. Scout - Point Blank Shot, Education
2. Scout
3. Scout - Precise Shot
4. Ranger - (Arcane Hunter ACF), B: Track
5. Scout - B: Swift Hunter
6. Scout - Improved Skirmish
7. Ranger - B: Rapid Shot
8. Ranger - B: Endurance
9. Ranger - (Distracting Attack ACF), Knowledge Devotion
10. Ranger
11. Ranger - B: Manyshot
12. Ranger - Greater Manyshot
13. Ranger
14. Ranger - (Spell Reflection ACF)
15. Ranger - Darkstalker
16. Ranger - B: Improved Precise Shot
17. Ranger
18. Ranger - *Open Feat*
19. Ranger
20. Ranger

*Penetrating Shot, Nemesis: Arcanist, Dead Eye (Drg#304), Deadly Aim (Pathfinder SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat)), or some other appropriate feat.

[Curious]

If your player is adamant about staying as a Paladin from the get-go, I would highly recommend the Pathfinder Paladin as a solid alternative.

[Carnivalia]

Hm, if you have concerns about your rogue, I can offer a bit of advice (I'm not too knowledgeable of Pally play). If he does not stray from the rogue progression at all, hes going to need to make the most out of his sneak attack damage in what ways he can. There are some safe alternatives while still having some of those levels in rogue, however this is commonly impractical. As for prestige, I find some very very good classes in the D&D 3.5 Complete Adventurer that apply to those sneaky classes, like the Daggerspell Mage and the Nightsong Infiltrator :). I hope this information helps, and for that matter applies to your needs.

[TwylyghT]

Order of the Bow Initiate.


…is a trap. Avoid at all cost.


....looks great until you realize you only get those tasty tasty d8s as a special standard action attack. No Rapid Shot, no iteratives, a single shot that still does pretty mediocre damage for that level. Total disappointment.

Admiral Akbar disapproves.

Just to be a tiny voice for the other side, for most archery builds, yes its a very bad idea for your typical machine gun arrow spewing madman.

However OotBI is not a total loss. Being in a low to no optimization campaign makes it a bit more viable.

First, Anyone using ranged attacks get benefit from close combat shot and sharp-shooting, and *will* have rounds where you would only attack once anyway. In those cases, you might as well score the extra damage. Greater weapon focus? not awesome, but its good for free.

Second, builds only using one attack a round like say, a crossbow sniper, or in a game with powder weapons, a musketeer, are right at home here.

Third, Ranged Precision works with *ranged weapons* not just bows. This has some important applications. Alchemist fire, and acid flask work on the directly hit target at very least, and some weapon like spells that produce a weapon you use as a separate action. A wand of Produce Flame to easily UMD for example can be fairly nasty in a pinch. This all goes for and often stacks with sneak attacks too. Trolls love it *wink*

Lastly, 60' precision damage. Groovy.

All of that said, I still have to agree that it's a very sub-optimal class for anything beyond a few specific builds and some moderate tricks with alchemy, and your friend would be better off rapid firing and/or greater multishoting builds.

And as yet *another* note, you being the DM can house rule to replace the "As a standard action.." with the slightly different "When using a standard action to attack.." and do a world of good. Heck it wouldnt be all that bad just to make it all ranged attacks that otherwise qualified before. Really its only a slightly more reliable sneak attack with 1 better damage per die on average.

Rule #0 is the best rule.

[sonofzeal]

Just to be a tiny voice for the other side, for most archery builds, yes its a very bad idea for your typical machine gun arrow spewing madman.

However OotBI is not a total loss. Being in a low to no optimization campaign makes it a bit more viable.

First, Anyone using ranged attacks get benefit from close combat shot and sharp-shooting, and *will* have rounds where you would only attack once anyway. In those cases, you might as well score the extra damage. Greater weapon focus? not awesome, but its good for free.

Second, builds only using one attack a round like say, a crossbow sniper, or in a game with powder weapons, a musketeer, are right at home here.

Third, Ranged Precision works with *ranged weapons* not just bows. This has some important applications. Alchemist fire, and acid flask work on the directly hit target at very least, and some weapon like spells that produce a weapon you use as a separate action. A wand of Produce Flame to easily UMD for example can be fairly nasty in a pinch. This all goes for and often stacks with sneak attacks too. Trolls love it *wink*

Lastly, 60' precision damage. Groovy.

All of that said, I still have to agree that it's a very sub-optimal class for anything beyond a few specific builds and some moderate tricks with alchemy, and your friend would be better off rapid firing and/or greater multishoting builds.

And as yet *another* note, you being the DM can house rule to replace the "As a standard action.." with the slightly different "When using a standard action to attack.." and do a world of good. Heck it wouldnt be all that bad just to make it all ranged attacks that otherwise qualified before. Really its only a slightly more reliable sneak attack with 1 better damage per die on average.

Rule #0 is the best rule.
It's also justifiable on a Scout build. Skirmish makes the OotBI mechanic more viable, though still not ideal.

But really, if you want an archer, you'd generally be better off with Warlock.

[Greenish]

First, Anyone using ranged attacks get benefit from close combat shot and sharp-shooting, and *will* have rounds where you would only attack once anyway.If you can make a standard action, Manyshot is probably better. Arrow Mind is a 1st level ranger spell that's way better than Close-Combat Shot, and Sharp-Shooting is pretty poor.


Second, builds only using one attack a round like say, a crossbow sniper, or in a game with powder weapons, a musketeer, are right at home here.Crossbow Snipers should be making more attacks per round. Guns tend to have awful stats, but they should, too.


Third, Ranged Precision works with *ranged weapons* not just bows.You need WF in a bow to enter, and you can only use Ranged Precision on the weapon you have WF on.


Lastly, 60' precision damage. Groovy.There are better ways to gain that, and you might not even be doing precision damage if it weren't for the initiate.


[Edit]: In case I wasn't clear enough, OotBI is a total loss, in the sense that you would be a much better archer if you continued in your current class than if you prestiged into it, for almost any class that might be interested in archery.

[TwylyghT]

You need WF in a bow to enter, and you can only use Ranged Precision on the weapon you have WF on.


Ok I forgot the focus thing, but you could still use it if you had Weapon Focus(Grenade-like) or Weapon Focus (ranged touch)..... ok yeah its less useful than I thought...

lol

[sonofzeal]

Ok I forgot the focus thing, but you could still use it if you had Weapon Focus(Grenade-like) or Weapon Focus (ranged touch)..... ok yeah its less useful than I thought...

lol
You can't take Weapon Focus (ranged touch), only Weapon Focus (ray), at which point you're better off with Spellwarp Sniper.

[TwylyghT]

You can't take Weapon Focus (ranged touch), only Weapon Focus (ray), at which point you're better off with Spellwarp Sniper.

I over specified it, but Weapon Focus(ranged spells) covers ALL ranged touch attack spells AND all missile producing spells that require a normal (non touched) range attack.

[Kaje]

I'd advise your shifter to stay away from warshaper as they'd only gain the benefits of the class for a very few number of rounds each day.

[Nepenthe]

I'm surprised there aren't many (any?) options for rogue archers. I guess I need to find out which half of that he likes better and go from there. Thanks for all the suggestions, guys. Keep 'em coming.

[Nepenthe]

Sorry for the double post.

I just talked with the rogue's player and it turns out he wasn't that interested in archery to begin with. Turns out he wants to be a skillmonkey, so I showed him Factotum. He hasn't decided yet though. So...um... general advice for skillmonkeys? Knowledge Devotion, Font of Inspiration (in the case of factotum), anything else?

Thanks, Everyone!

[Optimator]

On the subject of Halfling Outriders, mounted charging in general is a good, if repetitive, way to do competitive damage, especially pre-ToB. Being small is a good way to navigate a dungeon and keep your mount.

Beguilers are good skill monkeys. Perhaps that or an Unseen Seer build will satisfy his character concept while powering up the character's build with spellcasting. Factotum is still great too.

Factotums and Rogues make good skill monkeys, as do Artificers. In order for the character to feel unique and not get stepped on/step on any toes, they would have to specialize in whatever the Artificers don't. Artificers make great trap finders, with Int being the stat for Search and Disable Device and Trapfinding is also a class ability. If one of the Artificers maxes those skills, this player's skill monkey has a lot more freedom.

[gorfnab]

So...um... general advice for skillmonkeys? Knowledge Devotion, Font of Inspiration (in the case of factotum), anything else?

Factotum Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0) will have some more options for you to look at.

[gorfnab]

On the subject of Halfling Outriders, mounted charging in general is a good, if repetitive, way to do competitive damage, especially pre-ToB. Being small is a good way to navigate a dungeon and keep your mount.

Some mounts work great for normal sized dungeons like Mage Bred Warbeast Riding Dog, Blink Dog, and medium sized dragons.

Standard Supermount Build

LG Strongheart Halfling
1. Paladin - Mounted Combat, Track (prereq for Devoted Tracker)
2. Paladin
3. Paladin - Skill Focus: Handle Animal (prereq for Beast Master)
4. Paladin
5. Paladin
6. Beastmaster - Devoted Tracker
7. Beastmaster
8. Wild Plains Outrider
9. Wild Plains Outrider - Mounted Archery (prereq for Halfling Outrider)
10. Wild Plains Outrider
11. Halfling Outrider
12. Halfling Outrider - Natural Bond
13. Halfling Outrider
14. Halfling Outrider
15. Halfling Outrider - Ride By Attack (or some other feat)
16. Halfling Outrider
17. Halfling Outrider
18. Halfling Outrider - Spirited Charge (or some other feat)
19. Halfling Outrider
20. Halfling Outrider

At 20th level, thanks to Devoted Tracker, your Supermount's abilities are that of an 18th level Paladin Mount and an 18th level Druid Animal Companion combined.
Special Mount: 18th level Paladin = Paladin 5 + Wild Plains 3 + Half-Out 10
Animal Companion: 18th level Druid = Beast Master 5 + Natural Bond 3 + Half-Out 10

Other feats to consider:
Dragon Steed
Exalted Companion (Blink Dog) + Mage Slayer + Pierce Magical Concealment + Ring of Blinking

[Kolonel]

Having this much PCs often results in half of the party getting bored, because they won't have enough play-time.
If you don't give everyone something to work with, you will probably end up with only 2-3 players working on the main plot, with the others just sitting (or worse, talking) in the background and not paying too much attention to the game.

I suggest you assign some individual plot-elements and/or objectives to each of the players, so they will be able to play, even if they have nothing to do plot-wise.
You don't have to think too hard, little things like telling the paladin that he should make sure that no one (of the team) breaks the law, or having an enemy who wants to take revenge and kill the rouge (but has nothing to do with the other PCs) will be enough.:smallsmile:

[Nepenthe]

I suggest you assign some individual plot-elements and/or objectives to each of the players, so they will be able to play, even if they have nothing to do plot-wise.

That's the idea. I know it's easier said than done, and I'm sure my first few sessions will be chaos. I'm hoping that by taking an active role in character creation, I can tailor the campaign to the party and make sure everyone gets an equal share of the story. But that does bring up a good point. Does anyone have specific advice for dealing with large parties?

(Also, my player did decide on Factotum.)

[Nepenthe]

Double posting again. Apologies.

So the Warforged Crusader has expressed interest in fighting with a shortspear and shield (remember how I said this was a low-op group?). I have to say, I love the imagery of that style. Hopefully maneuvers can help with efficacy, but what's the best way to go about this? Two-weapon fighting with shield bashes?

[TwylyghT]

Two Weapon Fighting with Improved Shield Bash is a good start.


From CW
Shield Charge gives a free trip attack if you hit with a shield on a charge.

Shield Slam can make shield hits force a save or be dazed for 1 round.

From CA
Dual Strike Attacks with both as a standard action

Leap Attack is good for anyone doing a lot of charging

From PH2
A whole chain of shield feats starting with Shield Specialization

Two Weapon Pounce, gets you an attack with the shield and the spear on a charge.

[Greenish]

Don't bother with TWF feat. Take Agile Shield Fighter from PHBII instead, if you must.

Better yet, take neither. Use shield to do the shield stuff (Shield Charge, Shield Slam, the shield maneuvers), use spear for the rest.

Better yet, just smash stuff with the shield.


[Edit]: Person_Man's Guide to Shields (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630).

[TwylyghT]

Dress in red, white, and blue scale mail, take sling shield, and enchant your shield with returning?

...

Ok sorry, I'll go sit in the corner now.

Editing to say thats a handy guide Greenish, thanks for linking it.

[Daftendirekt]

I'd advise your shifter to stay away from warshaper as they'd only gain the benefits of the class for a very few number of rounds each day.

Yeah, Changeling and Hengeyokai are the ones that really love, love, LOVE the Warshaper.