(Pathfinder) Adding Firearms to a campaign

[Silus]

Ok, I may be running a Pathfinder campaign in the next month or so (things are still up in the air), and I was wondering if firearms would be a good thing to put in. Methinks it may depend on the campaign world, so here's a quick rundown of the world in question:

The homeworld has no magical creatures (dragons, aberrations, magical creatures, ect. ect. ect.), only "natural" animals and the basic races (sans Orcs). Due to a lack of monsters rampaging through the countryside and such, civilization has prospered as has technology and magic (I'm thinking Eberron level at the most).

The "campaign world" (where the campaign will mostly take place) is an alien planet that the Homeworld has connected to for colonization (via a Stargate type magic device). The place is lush with life, mostly Plant, Magical Creature and Aberrations (have not decided on "civilized" monsters, Fey, or Dragons). It'll be run almost like a Warhammer 40k Deathworld (as in mostly everything is hostile to the colonists).

Now, the Ultimate Combat book isn't out yet (3 more days as I'm typing this), but would it be a good idea to take a Fighter variant (Crossbowman from the APG) and let them use muskets, or would that be too OP?

[faceroll]

In the grand scheme of things, slightly larger damage dice on the fighter's weapon isn't going to unbalance a whole lot.

[Silus]

Well, looking at the rest of the classes, I'm considering letting anything that uses Crossbows (classes, feats, ect. ect.) to be able to use firearms.

Should I keep Weapon Prof (Musket)/(Pistol) as a feat for everyone, or make them considered Martial for the classes that would "benefit" from them (Fighter, Ranger, Rogue maybe)?

I want to make this challenging for the players, so I'm worried if guns (and blackpowder and cannons) will tip the scales.

[Retech]

If your players' wizards aren't already wrecking things, firearms will not make a difference.

Unless it's some freak of an incident where the BBEG is at 1HP and it could've died with firearms, but that is not even close to what would have resulted if a decent wizard was in the fray.

[Silus]

I honestly don't plan on there being a BBEG...

More like "Survive an Akata pack raid on your colony and try not too lose too many people".

And so far I'm only sure on one person's player (she's playing a Summoner).

[faceroll]

What's the damage on them? 1d10? 2d10? And really crappy reload times? That's not a big deal....

[Ravens_cry]

It's more a question of thematics than balance.
Do you want guns in your fantasy? If yes, add them. If not, don't.

[Rixx]

The playtest firearms rules are freely available, if you want to peruse them before you get your full book.

[Zeikstraal]

It will depend on how heavy magic is used in your world. If there are lijke 2 Wizards in a country, then yes, people will experiment and go further in technology. If there is a lot of magic the use and need for technology will not be much. Cause you can do everything with magic.

[NNescio]

It will depend on how heavy magic is used in your world. If there are lijke 2 Wizards in a country, then yes, people will experiment and go further in technology. If there is a lot of magic the use and need for technology will not be much. Cause you can do everything with magic.

Well there's Eberron and its Magitek...

[That_guy_there]

In the play test for the gunslinger, firearms were handled decently. I had been running a Pirate campaign in 3.5 that had been using all sorts of broken, warped and spotty rules i cobbled together from 3rd party and homebrew sources... and PF really made them "simpler". So it was an obvious choice for me...

long story short: Adding them makes them only marginally more powerful than crossbows.

Also, i think you chouldn't restrict firearms (to only martial classes) if tech on your "homeorld" has advanced consitantly.

[Silus]

It will depend on how heavy magic is used in your world. If there are lijke 2 Wizards in a country, then yes, people will experiment and go further in technology. If there is a lot of magic the use and need for technology will not be much. Cause you can do everything with magic.

Well I want it to be almost magitech'ish without going full magitech. Like magic and technology developed side by side in relation to each other, like competing businesses. Like....most places would be a blend of magich and tech, but there would be some cities that would be full tech or full magic.



In the play test for the gunslinger, firearms were handled decently. I had been running a Pirate campaign in 3.5 that had been using all sorts of broken, warped and spotty rules i cobbled together from 3rd party and homebrew sources... and PF really made them "simpler". So it was an obvious choice for me...

long story short: Adding them makes them only marginally more powerful than crossbows.

Also, i think you chouldn't restrict firearms (to only martial classes) if tech on your "homeorld" has advanced consitantly.

Well, I told the players that it's like Eberron in the really big cities at the most, but elsewhere it's like a blend of the Industrial Revolution and the Renaissance. So....like, printing presses, firearms (with "traditional" weapons making up the bulk of the weapons in use), public sewage systems, mass transit, but not anything like teleporters or anything steampunk heavy.

[That_guy_there]

If you exclude the Advanced Firearms (revolvers, shotguns, and the like) it sounds like a good fit.

Either way, lots of luck

[Silus]

If you exclude the Advanced Firearms (revolvers, shotguns, and the like) it sounds like a good fit.

Either way, lots of luck

Maybe let the players develop them down the line perhaps...

But thank you =D First time running a semi open ended campaign, gonna need all the luck I can get =P

[Slipperychicken]

Actually, the Gunslinger is intended to be "an alternate class for the fighter core class."

+1 to what other posters said about the mechanics not really changing much, other than a damage die and lower range. Personally, I find the addition of firearms very thematically appropriate to the whole colonisation theme. There's just... a... a certain feeling of "man vs. alien world" when some monster runs at a protagonist and you hear the gun's snap as the foe collapses mid-charge. Dunno, no matter how much magic you put on it, in my mind, a crossbow just doesn't give the gratifying, simplistic BOOM that a gun always delivers. (Rereading that now, I must sound like some kind of psychopath. Ahh well)

[Silus]

Actually, the Gunslinger is intended to be "an alternate class for the fighter core class."

+1 to what other posters said about the mechanics not really changing much, other than a damage die and lower range. Personally, I find the addition of firearms very thematically appropriate to the whole colonisation theme. There's just... a... a certain feeling of "man vs. alien world" when some monster runs at a protagonist and you hear the gun's snap as the foe collapses mid-charge. Dunno, no matter how much magic you put on it, in my mind, a crossbow just doesn't give the gratifying, simplistic BOOM that a gun always delivers. (Rereading that now, I must sound like some kind of psychopath. Ahh well)

*Laughs*
Hopefully that's what I get when they get playing. Especially when the new world has the following:

Bestiary 1
Aboleth
Ankheg
Assassin Vine
Basidirond
Basalisk (maybe)
Bulette
Chuul
Ettercap
Giant Flytrap
Froghemoth
Gibbering Mouther
Mimics (maybe)
Neothelid
Otyugh
Purple Worm
Shambling Mound
Shoggoth (oh heck yes)
Violet Fungus
Yellow Musk Creeper

Bestiary 2
Akata (defiantly)
Aurumvorax
Catoblepas
Chaos Beast
Chupacabra
Death Worm
Decapus
Denizen of Leng (maybe)
Drakes
Faceless Stalker
Grick
Grindylow
Gug
Leng Spider (maybe)
Moonflower (defiantly)
Mu Spore
Neh-Thalggu (maybe)
Peryton
Reefclaw
Seugathi
Shantak
Shining Child
Tendriculos
Water Orm
Yrthak

[panaikhan]

The only rules I've seen for firearms in PF are in one of the setting books (inner sea?).
As a player, I honestly wouldn't use them.

The ONLY thing I can see they have going for them is the 'ranged touch attack' clause for minimum range, and the range increments SUCK.

You might as well load the thing with money too, shots are expensive
(maybe it would up the damage if you did? :smallconfused: )

[Ravens_cry]

I plan to use pistols for an arcane trickster, using sneak attack to up the damage, and the touch attack helps the half BAB arcane trickster hit. Heck, a normal range rogue would find them nice. Touch attacks means more hits. More hits means more sneak attack. But you need to burn a feat on rapid reload.
Right now musketeers and riflers have it worse with no way to get full iteratives.

[Yorrin]

....Ultimate Combat... 3 more days...

Yeah... I'd personally just wait till Thursday. Maybe I'm just a sucker for official stats, but I'm also betting that the book'll have a few good ideas that none of us have bothered to think of. I'm personally quite looking forward to reading that section myself.

[DeMouse]

Right now musketeers and riflers have it worse with no way to get full iteratives.


Actually in the second playtest they added a grit power (gained at level 7) which let them line up a single shot as a full round action but roll attacks/damage as if they had made a full attack, and it only missfired if every roll was in the missfire range.

at level 11 you can take a feat to reduce the grit cost of it down to 0 and you gain the ability to reload as a swift action once per turn.

Gunslingers can get very powerful late game and do deacent damage early game.

They are only REALLY disadvantaged compared to crossbow fighters at levels 6-10. (note: this is only musket gunslingers i'm talking about, no idea how pistol slingers play out.)

[Tvtyrant]

I built a system for automatics where they fired 1 per iterative and then 1 more with -# to hit, with # being equal to the number of extra shots fired. Firing a full clip of 30 at level 1 would get 1 at +dex, with 29 at dex-29 each. At level 6 it would have 2 at dex and 28 at -28 each. Sort of a form of PA for guns.

[DeMouse]

I built a system for automatics where they fired 1 per iterative and then 1 more with -# to hit, with # being equal to the number of extra shots fired. Firing a full clip of 30 at level 1 would get 1 at +dex, with 29 at dex-29 each. At level 6 it would have 2 at dex and 28 at -28 each. Sort of a form of PA for guns.

wow that would be so broken its not even funny.

Compare it to Deadly Aim for instance. An extra attack (even if it only dealt 1d2 damage) is worth WAY more than 2 damage if you had any sort of enhancement bonus. Imagine with the guided property to add WIS to damage, or that gunslinger class feature which lets them add DEX.

[Tvtyrant]

wow that would be so broken its not even funny.

Compare it to Deadly Aim for instance. An extra attack (even if it only dealt 1d2 damage) is worth WAY more than 2 damage if you had any sort of enhancement bonus. Imagine with the guided property to add WIS to damage, or that gunslinger class feature which lets them add DEX.

If you allowed enhancement bonuses on guns, which I do not. Also, even with True Strike you aren't going to be hitting with those except on nat 20s at levels short of the 15 range. The point is allowing guns a realistic damage output; a bow!= a 50. cal.