Bardic Ninja

[Zaq]

So, I got to thinking the other day about whether or not a straight-class Bard (capital B) could pull off a convincing ninja (lowercase n). They're skillful enough, they get the stealthy skills, and they're just one feat (Subsonics) away from still being able to use bardic music without giving themselves away.

Now, of course, what is a ninja? (A miserable little pile of shuriken!) For the purposes of this exercise, I'm intentionally leaving it squishy, but basically, anything you can see a stereotypical ninja doing is probably good. Stealth is pretty much the only aspect that's totally nonnegotiable, and some flavor of quick assassination (or neutralization) is definitely a plus. Beyond that? Eh, convince me.

I'm not asking for (nor am I particularly interested in) a 20-level build. I'm more looking for ninja tricks that you can pull off as a pure Bard.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking that Fascinate (with or without Suggestion) would be a great way to sneak past guards (or at least get yourself into position), Mimicking Song is both humorous and useful, and while Deafening Song is hardly that good, it strikes me as something both ludicrous and ninja-esque. UMD, naturally, is as good here as it is everywhere. Bardic Knack lets you fake having some of the skills you would otherwise lack. For damage, I'm coming up a little bit dry . . . typical DFI tricks are probably the order of the day. (Yes, Bards are perfectly respectable and even fearsome damage-dealers, but I'm thinking like a ninja.)

The lack of quiet spellcasting hurts a little bit, of course, but you take what you can get.

Oh, and naturally, any good ninja would have Craft (Anonymous Satirical Poetry). That was an actual thing that ninjas did. Really.

So, what other ninja tricks can a Bard pull off?

[Keld Denar]

Bards, just like ninjas, have a difficult time grappling a foe while that foe is on fire. [/DrMcNinja]

The only issue with using Fascinate to avoid guards is that you have to be in plain sight, which is very un-ninja-like. Unless you are disguised or whatever, but otherwise if someone sees you doing the hula in black pajamas, they are probably gonna try to stick a sword in you.

[Zaq]

I wonder if it's possible to get an illusion involved? They might hear you, but if they don't see the real you . . . that's all you need, right?

[Ravens_cry]

Only the worst, or the best, ninja wear the 'black pyjamas'. Most ninja would wear a peasant or servants outfit, possibly carrying a load of something, and looking like they should be there.
Ninja rule number one: Those who are beneath notice will not be noticed.

[Greenish]

Bards can't silence their spells (all of which have somatic components, according to the book). Subsonics doesn't cover that, so it's problem for sneakiness.

Iaijutsu Focus would, naturally, be appropriate, but getting it as a class skill might require jumping through too many hoops. Cross-class or Bardic Knack might serve, especially with high Cha.


[Edit]: Of course, one could "disguise" as a wandering minstrel or other performer, but, that doesn't seem to be the style wanted.

[Amnestic]

That's where you're wrong Ravens_cry, I think you'll find that the worst ninjas wore orange jumpsuits. (http://www.comicbookcritic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/naruto_11.bmp) :smalltongue:

But yes, I highly advise investing in either Shiftweave or a Hat of Disguise. Or both.

[dextercorvia]

Bards can't silence their spells (all of which have somatic components, according to the book). Subsonics doesn't cover that, so it's problem for sneakiness.

I'm fairly sure you mean verbal. Interestingly, there are a few Bard spells in the SpC that don't have verbal components. Not enough for our purposes. Probably the best bet is to rely on long duration buffs like Alter Self, Iron Silence, etc.

[Greenish]

I'm fairly sure you mean verbal.Waving your hands about, shouting gibberish, it's all the same to me.

(Yes, I did.)

[FMArthur]

They both should be consolidated into the Lookin' Crazy component, which is all that matters.

[Fouredged Sword]

Insist that ranks in preform (woodwind) allows you to cast spells with a dog whistle. There, you are makeing sounds, but nobody can hear you. Very ninjaish.

[Thespianus]

Flute with a hidden weapon, like a Blowgun, would be very ninja-like. Combine with Instrument Blade from Complete Scoundrel for a Flute-Rapier of Ninja-Death.

Alo, the entire list of Hidden Spaces from Complete Scoundrel should be used.

Poisons should be investigated, even though the Bard lacks that ability. Dipping Ninja 3 sounds like a terrible waste, though. There must be better options to gain Poison Use.

I'm not sure how many Darkness spells the Bard gets, but the Shadow Veil reserve feat might be fun. Certainly Ninja-like, just as Dazzling Illusion would be.

Basing your bard casting around Perform(Weapon Drill) would be awesome. :)

[Person_Man]

Have you seen the Beguiler? It seems like that'd be a better avenue for a magic ninja build.

[Thespianus]

Have you seen the Beguiler? It seems like that'd be a better avenue for a magic ninja build.

True, but then what would be the challenge? ;)

Would be awesome, though, with an all "ninja-build" party, each with a different base class: Bard, Beguiler, Druid, Cleric, Wizard, whatever. :)

[mint]

I played a short game where the idea was to flavor any given class into a ninja. I made a bard who did Lullaby to wreck spot and listen checks and soften targets for Sleep.
It was a good trick.

[Zaq]

Have you seen the Beguiler? It seems like that'd be a better avenue for a magic ninja build.

Sure, but the point was to see if the CAdv Ninja is, in fact, the worst base class with 6 + INT or more skill points at being a ninja. I had easily convinced myself of the others, and only Bard was left. I'm fairly convinced now, though.

[darksolitaire]

Poisons should be investigated, even though the Bard lacks that ability. Dipping Ninja 3 sounds like a terrible waste, though. There must be better options to gain Poison Use.


Drow of the Underdark has alternative class feature that gave bards poison use at the cost of their bardic lore.

[Person_Man]

True, but then what would be the challenge? ;)

Would be awesome, though, with an all "ninja-build" party, each with a different base class: Bard, Beguiler, Druid, Cleric, Wizard, whatever. :)

Oh, I also feel the compulsion to post my homebrew ninja fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186505).

[/slightly off topic]

[Ravens_cry]

Insist that ranks in preform (woodwind) allows you to cast spells with a dog whistle. There, you are makeing sounds, but nobody can hear you. Very ninjaish.
Except any guard dogs, hell hounds, or other canines in the vicinity. Still, if you can be sure there is none (ninja rule number two: always do your homework), it's a pretty good idea in my opinion.

[FMArthur]

Except any guard dogs, hell hounds, or other canines in the vicinity. Still, if you can be sure there is none (ninja rule number two: always do your homework), it's a pretty good idea in my opinion.

Also works very well if you want to be Shadow from FFVI, who is a ninja with an equally-stealthy dog named Interceptor.

[Greenish]

Ninja rule number one: Those who are beneath notice will not be noticed.No, no, no. Ninja rule number one is to make sure you don't have any other ninjas on your side. It also helps if your pyjamas are of different colour (than black) or have some other distinctive feature so you can be told apart from other ninjas.

[Ravens_cry]

No, no, no. Ninja rule number one is to make sure you don't have any other ninjas on your side. It also helps if your pyjamas are of different colour (than black) or have some other distinctive feature so you can be told apart from other ninjas.

Only if you are in TV-Tropes-Land, where wild tropes trope along the troping landscape all troping day to troping sounds of the troping wind.

[Gametime]

Now, of course, what is a ninja? (A miserable little pile of shuriken!)

Can I sig this?

How fantastical of a ninja are we looking to make, here? Because Bards definitely have some spells that fit the "crazy magic combat ninja" archetype. Mirror Image, Whirling Blade, Invisibility, etc.

If you're looking for more mundane sneakery, well, anyone with Hide, Move Silently, and some good poisons can pull off an assassination.

But if you're willing to stretch your definition of "ninja" a bit, bards are likely to excel at hiding in plain sight. Ninjas are most likely going to be used to assassinate or gather information from important individuals. You know who's always welcome at court? A musician. You know who everyone listens to but no one pays attention to? A musician. Some good Listen checks to hear the conversation, some good Sleight of Hand to drop poison into the dish as the server passes by you, and you're set.

[Greenish]

Only if you are in TV-Tropes-Land, where wild tropes trope along the troping landscape all troping day to troping sounds of the troping wind.I'm pretty sure it holds up in Naruto, too (I mean, orange jumpsuit, it's obvious). And that is the most accurate documentation on the ninja, is it not?

[Zaq]

Can I sig this?

I'd be honored.

[Draz74]

A Ring of Silent Spells (MIC) can arguably let a Bard cast three low-level spells without making any noise. ("Arguably" because the ring's description carries explanatory text which includes the phrase "as though using the Silent Spell feat," which could mean the Bard is restricted here in the same way as he would be by Silent Spell. Up to the DM.) And it's cheap enough that you could buy a bunch, for more uses/day. And the Bard's best ninja-like spell, Improvisation, is conveniently Level 1. Gems like Glibness and Disguise Self are fair game, too.

If you don't want to go with that, or when you've got spell slots that are too high-level to be used with the Ring, a useful way to burn them silently is the Arcane Strike feat. Hey look, that helps solve your high-damage assassination attacks issue, too.

And yeah, disguises are a key component of many ninjas' stealth. So max Disguise and Bluff, get the Second Impression skill trick, and buff up both skills with your spells. No one will ever catch you, even with True Seeing.

Bards can ninja it up just fine. :smallcool:

EDIT: It should go without saying, but almost any ninja, regardless of class, should take Darkstalker.

[Ravens_cry]

I'm pretty sure it holds up in Naruto, too (I mean, orange jumpsuit, it's obvious). And that is the most accurate documentation on the ninja, is it not?
Now I know your troping trolling me.:smalltongue:

[Treblain]

Bardic Ninja is very workable. Bardic music doesn't provide much for the idea, though. Take Bardic Knack instead of Bardic Knowledge.

First of all, take Lyric Spell so you can trade bardic music for extra spells when you need to. Some other good feats are Sound of Silence, Obtain Familiar, and Snowflake Wardance.

Some really ninja-y spells are Ghost Sound, Invisibility, Bladeweave, Critical Strike, Expeditious Retreat, Improvisation, Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door, Disguise and Alter Self, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Blink, Gaseous Form, Mirror Image, Animate Rope, and Silence.

If you find your spells to be very useful, go into Lyric Thaumaturge to get more spells per day and access to some wizard spells. An interesting, if a little impractical, idea would be going Bard 7/Cloistered Cleric 1/Rogue 2/Fochlucan Lyrist to get in a class with full BAB and full dual spellcasting and music advancement.

[Piggy Knowles]

In a campaign I ran a while back, I had a bard NPC/minor antagonist that had a very ninja-like feel. He was a whisper gnome Bard/Swordsage with Assassin's Stance and Silencing Strike, and his main deal was that he stole people's voices, and then called on the stolen voices to power himself or strike fear in people's hearts. Mechanically, he used Silence spells and Silencing Strike on people, but I flavored it as stealing voices, and his bardic music was him unleashing the stolen voices that he'd collected. Haunting Melody and Phantasmal Song both fit in very well with the flavor on that one.

Skill-wise, he focused on stealth/perception/UMD, and his spells supported that. He was mostly a hit-and-run style character, who loved to attack the PCs, or people they were meant to protect, in the middle of the night. Not sure how he'd do as a PC, though - he was a pain in the butt to deal with because he was ridiculously stealthy, snuck around in the middle of the night, etc. But he wasn't really a team player (a bit ironic for bards, but in his case totally true).

Still was a cool NPC, though - I'd forgotten all about him!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Make sure you get Ghostbane Dirge and Mass Ghostbane Dirge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/ghostbane-dirge). For the awesome (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/20p67/).

[flabort]

You claim your problem is sound?
Preform (Mime). I don't know why nobody else mentioned it.
It saves you from needing Subsonic to keep from being heard for Bardic music Motions, and you can argue to your DM that the "verbal" part of a bard's spells is because he's preforming during it, and so by using Preform (mime), you get totally silent spells.
Plus the image of a Ninja trapped in a glass box is too funny not to think about.

[Piggy Knowles]

You claim your problem is sound?
Preform (Mime). I don't know why nobody else mentioned it.
It saves you from needing Subsonic to keep from being heard for Bardic music Motions, and you can argue to your DM that the "verbal" part of a bard's spells is because he's preforming during it, and so by using Preform (mime), you get totally silent spells.
Plus the image of a Ninja trapped in a glass box is too funny not to think about.

...you and I may have... different ideas about humor.

While you could ask your DM about this, and I don't think it would be overpowered to allow it, by RAW it just doesn't work. The rules specifically reference sound when referring to bardic music, which is why you don't see more bards with Perform (Dance). Same thing goes with the spells - it would be great if your DM handwaived that away based on your fluff, but that's a homebrew and not every DM will do that.

Relevant rules snips:


...a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him... While these abilities fall under the category of bardic music and the descriptions discuss singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance.

Note that this doesn't state that they can use anything that they can make a Perform check for - it gives a specific list of what works, all of which have an auditory component.

Also:


Just as for casting a spell with a verbal component, a deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use bardic music.

...and, from the Inspire Courage section (also note that every use of bardic music requires the affected party to be able to hear the bard, this is just a tidbit):


To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard...

So, unless you have a specific feat, class feature, item, &c that allows you to overrule this, it just doesn't work.

[aquaticrna]

So, unless you have a specific feat, class feature, item, &c that allows you to overrule this, it just doesn't work.

what's the listen check to hear someone dancing? does it work if it's tap dancing?

[Piggy Knowles]

You know, tap dancing has inspired many feelings in me, but I'm not sure that courage is one of them...

[Greenish]

You know, tap dancing has inspired many feelings in me, but I'm not sure that courage is one of them...Maybe it just wasn't magical tap dancing?

Or maybe you're just dead inside? (Undead being immune to mind affecting.)

[flabort]

Homicidal rage is a type of Courage....

Wait. I keep forgetting. For most people it's MIMES that inspire rage, not TAP DANCERS......... :smallsigh:

[FMArthur]

Homicidal rage is a type of Courage....

Wait. I keep forgetting. For most people it's MIMES that inspire rage, not TAP DANCERS......... :smallsigh:

If you've ever lived below a tap dancer, or a dance studio... Well, even Gandhi would be frantically searching for the nearest gun in a frothing rage under such prolonged trauma.